Yep, that's right. The main Shadowrun page has a list of all the playtesters up as thanks, since they couldn't fit it into the book, as well as... the table of contents in PDF format!

Two words: It's green.

Yay organleggers! Is it me or were they conspiciously absent from the SR3 Book?

Okay, this is raising a red flag. I've already said the cover and logo make me thing they are merely going for another version of D20 Modern. After seeing that PDF, I must say that my impression has not changed.

More than likely, the information is still the same (at least we know that guns still use bullets), and they even included a few items that I would have wanted in SR3. And, to be honest, I noticed they specifically included the term "Riggers," which means that anyone who wants to play one can keep the term. And, to be honest, the entire list of items in the PDF almost seemed to be Shadowrun. I almost accepted it.

However, I am an experienced DnD player and also have played D20 Modern and its variants. I don't play those anymore because of the tone they naturally support. I wanted a game that was gritty. That's why I play SR. And that's why I'm currently doubting that the 4th Edition is a good thing.

To be honest, they did not have a single item you cannot include in a D20 Modern game. The front cover I've already criticised and do not feel representative of SR. But these page decorations are something I expect when I pick up a book by WotC and see the D20 logo on it. This is not something I expect when playing a gritty, down-to-Earth game where my character can very likely be killed by some teenaged punk just trying out their first gun. This looks like they are trying so hard to present a cool look for Shadowrun that they forgot to include the Shadowrun in the look.

I seriously hope tomorrow's preview includes something with the SR flavor in it. As it stands, I doubt I have seen anything they have put out about SR4 that actually includes the SR in it.

Matrix Crash 2.0...

Just looking over the ToC, it looks like a little bit of everything is covered. But I noticed only 2 pages on Adept powers?

That's about what the current book has. More than likely, part of the information continues onto 189.

I'm thinking that's a subsection of Adepts. The upcomming book on magic will probably include other types.

hey check it out, under matrix combat there is a subheader called "simultaneous combat in multiple nodes". and under programs there is one "source code and piracy".

this beast seems to cover everything and then some. still, its more then likely nothing more then 1 page at best pr topic.

allso, the stuff will be mostly utilitarian. if you want setting material, check out the start of the book.

and i kinda fail to see the comparison between sr4 and d20 modern based on the toc. d20 modern is a framework book, that the gm can create his own settings based on. sr4 have a buildt in setting...

as for the art, i kinda like it

but then the only full color book i have had a problem with is ogl cybernet as it have this freaky eyeball in the corner

and for those that worry about the everpresent connectivity of wireless, page 304 have the subheading "turning it off"

I don't get that feeling at all. It's very slick, obviously inspired by the Matrix films, but still very stylish without overwhelming the page. I get the feeling it's certainly aimed at the post-Matrix concepts of cyberpunk, instead of the late 80's version classic SR had.

Of course, now the whole thread is going to derail onto that subject...

I love the "Criminal Elements .... Other than You" comment. Excellent.

It does seem like the background setting information included the in the basic book is a lot more comprehensive and better organized this time around.

As for everything else... Well, that'd require mind reading.

hrm. well, at least the names won't be in the book.

Much of what I've looked at with post-Matrix concepts of cyberpunk really isn't cyberpunk. The Matrix movies themselves were barely-disguised morality tales dealing with the philosophy of "What is reality?" and choosing to follow the same route explored to death by many religions and quite a few philosophers throughout history.

Much of my complaint about this has nothing to do with cyberpunk, but just Shadowrun. Shadowrun is a dark, gritty game in its feel. I don't feel the cover, logo, and interior decorations of SR4 even come close to attempting to reflect that. It looks to me like they are trying to clean the grime out of the gutters in a vain attempt to draw in the crowds lured by the "cleaner" games WotC pulls out of its hoop. I'm sorry, it just seems like they're kiddyfying SR. If I didn't know better, I would swear this is a book put out by WotC.

hrmm organleggers and fences get good amounts of data... screw following a Johnson's orders I'l gonna murder people and looit them, sell their stuff to a fence and sell THEM to the organlegger

OK, curiosty is sufficiently whetted. Especially the interesting entry about "Sex."

I can't speak for the art, Sabosect, but I do know that the writers have been given more freedom to be dark and gritty than at any point in Shadowrun since I've been writing for it.

Eh, nobody mention the fonts.... They really sucks... I just hope it's a problems of low-res .pdf

Well, I'm hoping so. I just don't like the looks of it from what I have seen so far. I'm hoping tomorrow's preview will totally blow my opinions so far out of the war, then nail them with antiaircraft fire while they're comming back down.

WTC is also known for producing errata books that have more errors in them than what they were trying to fix (3.5 core books), for kiddyfying items and overmarking their seriousness in an attempt to cover themselves (BoVD is softcore evil that doesn't even get the evil portion right), and for taking something mildly broken and nerfing it to the point it's not even worth mentioning. Their production values may be higher, but their average errata list per book is bigger than the combined errata for the entirety of SR3. Higher production values in this case is resulting in increasingly reduced quality.

So, yeah, saying it's a book produced by WotC is like telling a world chef that the guy working in the back of McDonalds is a better cook.

As for SR4: As I said, I hope tomorrow makes me apologize for today.

time on target: t- minus 56 hours until SR4 goes on sale


I do have one stupid question thou.. is there any errata yet?

Well saying that because something looks like X means it must be just like X in all respects has a name, whatsitcalled? Oh yeah judging a book by it's cover. But certainly no one is doing that.

And as for the comparisons to WotC. Well the SR design team does love us the d20. We loves it something fierce.

If you don't want the book judged by it's cover, then why all of the effort into the artwork? The answer is that the artwork is to draw in customers. The problem is that the logic behind it assumes people will be judging it by its cover. Thus, the whole purpose of the artwork is to encourage people to judge the book by its cover and come to a particular judgement in favor of the book. So complaining that I am judging a book by its cover when the intent of the cover is to judge the book by it produces an interesting paradox of you not wanting me to do exactly what was intended for me to do

Actually, what I've heard about the writing so far has me excited. However, I will not disguise that the graphicals of this have me disappointed. But, really, that's my only complaint so far. The hacker/decker issue I don't see as a problem, the rigger issue appears to finally come to reflect the reality of what they always were, this one finally addresses at least two issues that have been danced around in SR3, and it finally includes more information in it. But, that's still not going to change the fact I'm going to wonder where the D20 logo is every time I look at the cover.

I think it's rather rare for Shadowrun products to actually express the "low life" part of High Tech & Low Life through the layout and design elements; certainly the SR3 layout and design was very focused towards the High Tech. Frankly, the high tech is a much easier and accessible metaphor.

The SR2 cover did a decent job blending low life and high tech. Although after a quick look through all products from SR2 to now, I only picked out Cyberpirates as also conveying some of that feeling from the cover. For what it's worth, the SR4 cover does, I believe, a better job of blending the two than a lot of SR sourcebook covers do.

it's pretty, so it must be d20ish. wow.

Indeed, I'm amazed a page of contents can attract so many complaints.

Nice. I see they actually did manage to cramp most important things into the book this time (initiation!). Also, I like that the book also gives a general rundown of how the sixth world functions (and gritty details like organlegging and fencing are included, as well as general day-to-day life things like SINs, how magic is perceived, how the average citizen and the matrix interact, sex ...). Giving hints on how to use skills is a good idea too.

The greenish colour is debatable, but meh, I can live with that.

I saw no mention of Hong Kong though, but maybe it escaped me.

Well, that makes me hope for SR4. Maybe it will indeed be a good book.

I suspect that the book will not be made available right on the stroke of Thursday, given that I fully expect the people involved with getting the book online to be out causing trouble in whatever bar we happen to bump into.

In my opinion, the table of content is quiet nice (not for the green colour, I have to admit).
It is quiet important after 16 years to do a summary of what/how is really SR world. It is not especially for newbies, but there will be some of them of course. And if you want a description of Seattle, plus Hong Kong, plus the full adept rules and power, the full rules for initiation, a complete list of vehicles existing in SR world, all the ware for streetsams etc... this would be a 1000 pages that would cost around 150$. So please, stop the laments...
I can see a lot of really good things, all the issues seem to have been addressed (thanks to God, they did a few pages on security)... Each chapter seems to have been divided in a clever way, with all the gray area of former edition having at least a paragraph...
Honestly, my only ranting would be the colour, but as someone said : I can leave with that
I am really happy with what I can see...

One could argue that the inclusion of things like initiation is there specifically to cater to the existing fanbase--people who have magicians who have picked up a level or two of initiation might be playable in SR4 now as opposed to six months from now (or whenever it is that Street Magic comes out).

I do think the green is a poor choice. Pastel greens typically look sickly. One can make them look non-sickly with effort, but that wasn't done here. Blue would have been a much better choice.

Ever see that picture of the two runners breaking into the Ares facility (it was one of the color artworks in SR3). To me, that picture shows a good piece of "low-life".

I get really get the feeling that you will be able to understand all the important elements of this game just from this book. The only thing that worries me is that the general placement of the rules seems to be in the same order as in SR3, and I always found some of the rules to be somewhat unlogicly placed. In any case, a delicious preview IMO.

Two FYIs:

* I specifically said design/layout relating to high tech & low life, not artwork.
* The colours onscreen will not be 100% accurate as to the exact colour of the book.

Well, I guess you don't really want low-life layout, since that would probably include typos, ink blotches, insets that overlap text and leave awkward blocks of whitespace, and generally a book that looks like it's been kicked around in the gutter for a while before put on the store shelves.

I guess that Planescape had a bit of that feel (and you could get it also by putting bits of trash like the shot-up monitor from the SR2 page in the borders), but yes, if you explicitly exclude artwork from "design and layout", then I'd agree.

Nah... That'd be *gasp* "gritty" and "dark".

Not that anything for Shadowrun in the last year or so has been either, or even close. It's become a cartoon joke of itself.

This thing has been nerfed from the start, so I'm not surprised how disappointing the end result is.

In the art credits it´s revieled that there will be a North America map! How I missed that in SR3. Hope its fold-out like in SR2.

James' posts make me nauseous now.