Clyde
Aug 16 2005, 05:25 PM
Not too bad, actually. Depends upon how you interpret the amount of memory required for the HUD. A remote deck isn't that pricey as long as it is of a fairly low rating, and some of the smaller rotor drones are quite affordable.
It may be that the reason you are having a hard time staging stun batons is that they halve your impact armor (because they're shock weapons). Get the "insulation" option added to your armor (it's an armor modification in the cannon companion). You won't have any problems with stun batons after that.
I have three different weapon options for you:
1) The Steyr TMP Machine Pistol (in the Cannon Companion). It uses pistols skill, has no integral accessories, and can fire full auto (although its base damage code is 6L). Get Gas Vent rating IV installed, a folding stock and have the grip customized (or count on your strength) to get 6 points of recoil compensation. Fire bursts of standard ammo at a damage code of 12S (with a minimum target number of 6 to dodge because of the autofire). With EX rounds, you can up that to 14S which is better than most heavy armor can stand up to. Just watch the hardened stuff. This should help you cut down one guard at a time.
2) Your Taser of choice. I'm partial to the Yamaha Pulsar for its 8D(stun) damage code, but the easy to find Defiance Super Shock is also a stopper. These weapons are semi-auto and work instantly, unlike poison darts which often take effect at the end of the combat turn. Plus they're silent. On the downside, they have no range at all.
3) A full sized shotgun. You'll face a +2 penalty defaulting to a T-250 or similar using your pistols skill, but with the spread from shot rounds that won't actually feel so bad.
Finally, if you know that you have guards in your path you may want to consider tossing smoke grenades at them before they have the chance to see you. Your thermo vision will let you see through the stuff at little penalty, while they'll have a heck of a time unless they also have thermo. Another option is holding back in a hidey hole and just waiting for the guards to make a move. It's a lot harder for them to "just spot you" if you are crouched under a desk than if you are trying to splinter cell your way past on the ceiling or something. They'll either move, or you can think of another way around, or wait for backup, or send a drone around to create a distraction or whatever.
Leviathan
Aug 16 2005, 05:38 PM
QUOTE (Clyde) |
Not too bad, actually. Depends upon how you interpret the amount of memory required for the HUD. A remote deck isn't that pricey as long as it is of a fairly low rating, and some of the smaller rotor drones are quite affordable.
It may be that the reason you are having a hard time staging stun batons is that they halve your impact armor (because they're shock weapons). Get the "insulation" option added to your armor (it's an armor modification in the cannon companion). You won't have any problems with stun batons after that.
I have three different weapon options for you: 1) The Steyr TMP Machine Pistol (in the Cannon Companion). It uses pistols skill, has no integral accessories, and can fire full auto (although its base damage code is 6L). Get Gas Vent rating IV installed, a folding stock and have the grip customized (or count on your strength) to get 6 points of recoil compensation. Fire bursts of standard ammo at a damage code of 12S (with a minimum target number of 6 to dodge because of the autofire). With EX rounds, you can up that to 14S which is better than most heavy armor can stand up to. Just watch the hardened stuff. This should help you cut down one guard at a time.
2) Your Taser of choice. I'm partial to the Yamaha Pulsar for its 8D(stun) damage code, but the easy to find Defiance Super Shock is also a stopper. These weapons are semi-auto and work instantly, unlike poison darts which often take effect at the end of the combat turn. Plus they're silent. On the downside, they have no range at all.
3) A full sized shotgun. You'll face a +2 penalty defaulting to a T-250 or similar using your pistols skill, but with the spread from shot rounds that won't actually feel so bad.
Finally, if you know that you have guards in your path you may want to consider tossing smoke grenades at them before they have the chance to see you. Your thermo vision will let you see through the stuff at little penalty, while they'll have a heck of a time unless they also have thermo. Another option is holding back in a hidey hole and just waiting for the guards to make a move. It's a lot harder for them to "just spot you" if you are crouched under a desk than if you are trying to splinter cell your way past on the ceiling or something. They'll either move, or you can think of another way around, or wait for backup, or send a drone around to create a distraction or whatever. |
Still sounds like that mass security setup might have to be an extended save up thing

the last run gave us 30k, thats four to five times normal for a run for us.
Yeah, noticed the insulation option in the middle of the combat, definitely a consideration!!
#1 - Sounds like a nice option, though not a silent one, maybe the silenced Thunderbolt would be a better option for primary firearm?
#2 - Havn't got a taser at the moment, thanks!
#3 - While it's an option, I probably wont worry about one for the moment, wish list is growing rather rapidly!


Yup, definitely grabbing some smoke grenades, heck I could even grab some that negate thermal and rely on my Adept "Motion Sense" power, less disadvantage for me than them!
Slacker
Aug 16 2005, 06:20 PM
The notorious Ares Viper Slivergun is also a possible alternate for your pistol. It fires flechette only, but it is silent and can fire in either SA or BF mode.
Base damage is 9S(f) for a single shot. Since you are going against armored opponents it would only do 9M though.
Burst fire would be 12D against unarmored opponents or 12S against armored opponents.
Add some recoil comp to it and it works great (a bit too great according to many dumpshockers).
hyzmarca
Aug 16 2005, 07:02 PM
Upping your Negoations skill will cost quite a bit of karma due to your low CHA, however, it can be worthwile. If you are spotted, a good fast talk roll could be the difference between a bullet and an "I'm sorry sir". Disguise is also useful for this purpose.
You also might want to gonsider investing in an explosives skill and using them to cover your escapes. Can you say tripwire? Guards go running after you and kaboom, no more guards. This only works if you plan ahead, however.
QUOTE |
My tactics at the moment seem to be "Sneak through the area, motion sense tells me theres guards round the corner, slip around the corner and sneak up on them" "they spot you" "drek, I shoot out the lights and hope they dont have thermo"
|
Have you tried throwing something to distract them or making noise and then ambushing them when they try to investigate? These tactics are cliche but they'll work if you GM isn't a hoop.
Vaevictis
Aug 16 2005, 10:25 PM
Monowire -- if you can find an out of the way corridor that people don't go down very often (especially at the time you're in there), booby trap the corridor, and if things go badly, retreat through it at a run. You'll probably lose the pursuit at that point -- it's kind of hard to chase someone if your leg gets cut off at the knee. Just make sure to remember where the wire is and jump over it. Caltrops are good for this also -- not as powerful, but don't really require any prep either.
Don't fight multiple opponents in combat. Try to separate them (monowire booby traps might be good for this).
If you're going into a facility with heavy security, consider doing a pre-run and installing remotely activated gas tanks full of nausea gas, tear gas, etc, in the HVAC system. Take a gas mask with you. (This can be highly effective, especially if you stack gas types -- if everyone except you has +10 to TN, things start looking a lot better for you).
And definately, definately, definately have superflash and smoke grenades. You can cover your eyes for the superflashes, and with thermographic vision, the smoke grenades won't do anything to you (although watch for smoke alarms). But superflash should be really, really ugly in a building.
Crusher Bob
Aug 17 2005, 03:20 AM
The mapping system would look something like this:
HUD computer (XX MP) (probably 50-100 MP, its not like you are doing anything else with it)
Trode net
GPS Receiver (800Y? they are in there somewhere)
Non-cyberware orientation system (5000Y iirc, 'externals' are 1/3rd the cost of the ware version).
Mapping software: either get your decker to write you some, or pay for it (probably 1000-3000Y) (depends on options)
Possible additions: a set of simple cameras and a rangefinder, so that the mapping software attempts to generate maps of the terrain you see and well as the terrain you move over.
Then, you'll need a low rating RCD to run the drones.
Then two sets of drones, one for indoor stuff and one for outdoor stuff.
The outdoor drones would be high signature gasbags, while the indoor drones would be something like ruthenium covered spider drones. As the drones will already have the basic sensor package you'd need, they should stay pretty cheap.
So, you both send the drones ahead of you and leave them behind you. Add their input to the map being developed by your HUD computer (with real time updates on the movements and conversations of any guards that happen by).
If you have the money, adding gunnery autosofts the drones and giving each a silenced pistol (or narcojet pistol, or taser, or whatever) and maybe a flashpack will greatly increase your abilities. If you want to be mean, learn demolitions (specialty mines) and get some ruthenium covered claymores to pack into the office building as well. They, if it hits the fan, any guards moving through areas you have already secured get turned into dog meat. If the building has a suspended ceiling (or whatever) then you can plant the mines inside the ceiling (any use the cheaper, non ruthenium covered versions).
You might also want some 'anti pursuit devices' (i.e. self deploying mines that you just throw over your shoulder while running away). Sure they are relatively easily visible but the opposition will have to slow down to do something about them (that is, if they notice them, noticing stuff while running after that nasty runner in the dark can be... difficult).
So, you generally know where the guards are. If you have to rush them, they are blinded, gassed, and/or blown up before you even get there. If you get detected, the guards rushing in to subdue you are blinded, gassed, and/or blown up. And if you have to run, the guards running after you are, you already know the answer to this one. Jumping out and trying to go all ninja on three guys is just going to get you smacked down.
Note that you may not be able to carry all of this stuff all of the time, but having all of it in your bag of tricks makes your job much easier. Also, remember that you can ‘pre-prepare’ your infiltration route or exfiltration routes ahead of time.
mmu1
Aug 17 2005, 03:41 AM
QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
The outdoor drones would be high signature gasbags, while the indoor drones would be something like ruthenium covered spider drones. As the drones will already have the basic sensor package you'd need, they should stay pretty cheap. |
Enough ruthenium to cover a spider drone would be cheap - the real cost with ruthenium is enough scanners to make it more useful than ordinary camo, and they're expensive and have a high street index.
Crusher Bob
Aug 17 2005, 04:12 AM
Oh my. So breaking into the warehouse of a electronics distributer who sells then would certainly not be a course of action worth thinking about. Or getting your decker to hijack their purchasing software and 'ordering' you a box full of them.
Runner, "I break into highly secure installations and steal really expensive stuff for a living."
Other runner, "Why don't you have a {doodad}, it would make your job much easier."
Runner, "Oh that would be nice, but they are too expensive for me to afford one."
Other runner, "Oh, the irony."
mmu1
Aug 17 2005, 04:30 AM
Yeah... Because every GM is just going to let you steal as many imaging scanners that sell for 10k a pop on the street and have an availability time of 14 days as you need, right? Just snap your fingers. Hell, you can probably shoplift them at Radio Shack - 240,000

worth, max coverage for both drones.
Next time you feel the need to act like a sarcastic asshole for no apparent reason, you might want to make sure you have a point worth making...
Crusher Bob
Aug 17 2005, 04:39 AM
The GM should not be out to get you. While stealing the imaging scanners will not be 'easy' it presents a viable alternative to paying for them. Your runners can steal a 'getaway car' for the run, they can steal (or try to steal) other stuff they want.
Face it, runners break into highly secure areas and steal stuff for other people all the time. Realizing that you can break into highly secure areas and steal stuff for yourself is not that far of a jump. Breaking into a place should not become and easier (i.e. the GM should not be out to get you) becuase some shadowy 'guy' has hired you to do the job. In general, the stuff that the runners are stealing is worth hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of newyen in the right hands (otherwise, all the effort of hiring the runners would not be worth the corps times). If they can defeat the security in those places, then it follows that they can defeat the security in a place that hold less expensive stuff.
Clyde
Aug 17 2005, 06:22 AM
While the GM shouldn't be out to get you, Leviathan's GM is the one we're dealing with. There's no point in coming up with the perfect tactic if his local GM won't let it fly. It certainly seems that he likes to run a high action and fairly high powered game - lots of armor layering, guards with a lot of skill, etc. Its doubtful that a GM who gives out 30,000

for a really good haul is going to like the idea of a whole lot of free ruthenium scanners jumping into his game.
Otherwise, I really love the idea of invisible claymores. That might well be
worth the money . . . once. Do it too often and you'll spend more on distractions than you get paid for doing the job.
kobura
Aug 18 2005, 05:54 PM
Why don't you try dropping all the armor and pick up a camo full suit. The armor's decent at 5/3 and add thermal dampening to it? It adds +4 to perception tests. Instead of going full attack, why don't you just try regular attacks or pick up kick attacks? They won't have a a lower TN if you don't use full attack. If you pick up kick attack you get the bonus.
Altheas
Aug 19 2005, 01:02 PM
*accidental double-post*
Altheas
Aug 19 2005, 01:29 PM
Hmm, considering some of the comments I'm seeing getting thrown around here, I feel compelled to add my own 0.02

to the mix as the GM in question.
Firstly, the target was a ship carting a number of combat troops, who had been protecting installations in Tasmania (We are running in Australia). If you read the Target: Awakened Lands book, you'd have an idea of just why I feel that any corp facility there would require very, competent security, both in training and equipment. They had slightly above average stats, with higher skills to represent their specialization in subduing paracritters. Oh, and for the record, they were 4 (6) in the respective assault rifle/stun baton skills, on the low end of elite squads.
Secondly, in the instance where the stealth adept was spotted by the two guards, the guards were paying close attention to the one entrance, and had low-light vision (still one light functioning in the room) incorporated into their helmets. They succeeded in seeing him, and I see no problem with that. Essentially, them's the breaks.
The complaints about the corporate troops 'knowing' where the adept was hiding I feel are a bit unfair. At the time, the adept had thrown the flash-pak back in the direction of the guards, giving them a pretty fair indication of where he was. The act of 'digging in' implies that they are to be cornered in, at which point it is a reasonable tactic to bust out if possible.
Finally, this run was designed as fairly highly powered, raiding two corporate ships that they knew going in, were carrying well armoured and skilled troops. The payoff was commensurate, in both goods and nuyen. They had assistance from several other NPCs, including other more combat oriented characters, to balance out the odds.
The ambush which he came out the worse for wear in was the one 'stuff up' in the process of the run, as he moved out ahead of the secured area to where he knew there was opposition without support, into troops whose location he'd been warned about. In the circumstances, I think he did well getting out in one piece.
Thankyou for your indulgence, now please help him learn how to properly use a stealth adept.
Edited for clarity
Velocity
Aug 19 2005, 11:45 PM
QUOTE (Altheas) |
Hmm, considering some of the comments I'm seeing getting thrown around here, I feel compelled to add my own 0.02 to the mix as the GM in question. |
Funny how a single post can completely shift someone's sympathies, huh? In light of this information, I now completely agree with:
QUOTE |
In the circumstances, I think he did well getting out in one piece. |
toturi
Aug 20 2005, 12:41 AM
QUOTE (Altheas @ Aug 19 2005, 09:29 PM) |
Hmm, considering some of the comments I'm seeing getting thrown around here, I feel compelled to add my own 0.02 to the mix as the GM in question.
Firstly, the target was a ship carting a number of combat troops, who had been protecting installations in Tasmania (We are running in Australia). If you read the Target: Awakened Lands book, you'd have an idea of just why I feel that any corp facility there would require very, competent security, both in training and equipment. They had slightly above average stats, with higher skills to represent their specialization in subduing paracritters. Oh, and for the record, they were 4 (6) in the respective assault rifle/stun baton skills, on the low end of elite squads.
Secondly, in the instance where the stealth adept was spotted by the two guards, the guards were paying close attention to the one entrance, and had low-light vision (still one light functioning in the room) incorporated into their helmets. They succeeded in seeing him, and I see no problem with that. Essentially, them's the breaks.
The complaints about the corporate troops 'knowing' where the adept was hiding I feel are a bit unfair. At the time, the adept had thrown the flash-pak back in the direction of the guards, giving them a pretty fair indication of where he was. The act of 'digging in' implies that they are to be cornered in, at which point it is a reasonable tactic to bust out if possible.
Finally, this run was designed as fairly highly powered, raiding two corporate ships that they knew going in, were carrying well armoured and skilled troops. The payoff was commensurate, in both goods and nuyen. They had assistance from several other NPCs, including other more combat oriented characters, to balance out the odds.
The ambush which he came out the worse for wear in was the one 'stuff up' in the process of the run, as he moved out ahead of the secured area to where he knew there was opposition without support, into troops whose location he'd been warned about. In the circumstances, I think he did well getting out in one piece.
Thankyou for your indulgence, now please help him learn how to properly use a stealth adept.
Edited for clarity |
First, I would like to say that I have been waiting for your side of the story and pretty much said that if you post this PC along with your comments, we'd be complaining what a doofus the player was. But now that we know both sides, I would comment point by point.
1) Australia does not mean that the security is any better. I have TAL and nowhere in the book does it state that security in Australia is tighter than in Seattle. In fact, security in Australia should be somewhat less competent, since the Legality of illegal cyberware/bioware is increased. But it is your game and as long as you made it clear from the outset that it was going to be a tough run, I do not find it hard to swallow.
2) If that entrance was the only one they were paying attention to(and paying attention at the moment the PC walked in) and unless the PC walked(opposed to sneaked) in through the "front door" and since you were giving the sec guards sec armour, I detect a faint odour of GM fiat.
3) How did the corp troops know where to throw that flash pak in the first place? Was it random chance that the flashpak was thrown in the correct direction?
4) What was the pay like, fringe benefits etc? Against elite troops I benchmark my pay to runs such as those in SOTF.
ShieldT
Aug 20 2005, 04:09 AM
QUOTE (toturi @ Aug 20 2005, 12:41 AM) |
3) How did the corp troops know where to throw that flash pak in the first place? |
the adept had thrown the flash-pak S'okay.
toturi
Aug 20 2005, 04:56 AM
QUOTE |
At the time, the adept had thrown the flash-pak back in the direction of the guards, giving them a pretty fair indication of where he was. |
Throwing something back implies that something was thrown at you in the first place, wouldn't you say? S'okay.
ShieldT
Aug 20 2005, 05:30 AM
Egg on my face
Altheas
Aug 20 2005, 06:00 AM
QUOTE |
If that entrance was the only one they were paying attention to(and paying attention at the moment the PC walked in) and unless the PC walked(opposed to sneaked) in through the "front door" and since you were giving the sec guards sec armour, I detect a faint odour of GM fiat. |
The guards were below decks on the ship in question. They knew the ship was under attack (several explosions having given that fact away) and were using an upturned table as a barricade. There was one entrance from the deck to this level, so I felt it was reasonable they were paying pretty close attention to it at the time.
QUOTE |
How did the corp troops know where to throw that flash pak in the first place? Was it random chance that the flashpak was thrown in the correct direction? |
This event occured after the two guards spotted the adept, though different guards were involved, being in a room several metres away. After hearing a struggle, and several shots, two guards stuck their heads out of the room and were spotted by the adept. He used freeze foam to form a barricade, over which they threw the flash pack. The flash pack was then thrown back, so they charged. This was all in very tight quarters, distances being less than 6 metres at the most.
QUOTE |
I have TAL and nowhere in the book does it state that security in Australia is tighter than in Seattle. |
This ship was a corporate (CATCo) owned ship, on its way back from Tasmania, which itself is almost uninhabited except for heavily fortified corporate facilities. Considering that they'd be moving weaponary back and forth, it makes sense that they'd have access to the bigger guns, which was the whole reason the runners wanted to raid it, to loot the guns.
Leviathan
Aug 20 2005, 09:43 AM
QUOTE (toturi @ Aug 19 2005, 07:41 PM) |
First, I would like to say that I have been waiting for your side of the story and pretty much said that if you post this PC along with your comments, we'd be complaining what a doofus the player was. But now that we know both sides, I would comment point by point.
1) Australia does not mean that the security is any better. I have TAL and nowhere in the book does it state that security in Australia is tighter than in Seattle. In fact, security in Australia should be somewhat less competent, since the Legality of illegal cyberware/bioware is increased. But it is your game and as long as you made it clear from the outset that it was going to be a tough run, I do not find it hard to swallow.
2) If that entrance was the only one they were paying attention to(and paying attention at the moment the PC walked in) and unless the PC walked(opposed to sneaked) in through the "front door" and since you were giving the sec guards sec armour, I detect a faint odour of GM fiat.
3) How did the corp troops know where to throw that flash pak in the first place? Was it random chance that the flashpak was thrown in the correct direction?
4) What was the pay like, fringe benefits etc? Against elite troops I benchmark my pay to runs such as those in SOTF. |
4) So far the fringe benefits have been 30k (about four to six times our usual pay rate). We'll also apparently get to pick a couple of items from the armoury, but altheas has said that it'll mostly be machine guns etc, so of no use to me whatsover.
The reason that I moved towards the second combat (the one at the armoury) rather than bolt, is because after our mage had scouted the area via the Astral, and reported the troops. I thought he'd said there were two guards, but there were four, out of character I misheard (and in character my Eidetic Memory didn't help because of OOC mishearing). Had I known there was four I would have been either pulling back or setting an ambush

The assistance from other NPCs thing is quite amusing, since only one of them did anything, he fired three bullets at one of the guys chasing me

.
Clyde
Aug 21 2005, 12:40 AM
For loot: look for the most expensive looking weapon you can find. You may be able to trade it towards Ruthenium or other gear even if you can't use it.
Leviathan
Aug 21 2005, 12:17 PM
QUOTE (Clyde) |
For loot: look for the most expensive looking weapon you can find. You may be able to trade it towards Ruthenium or other gear even if you can't use it. |
Thats what I'm going to have to do, though since you only get 1/4 to 1/3 of the listed price when fencing an item, it will be worth shit all anyway. I have little doubt that the gun-monkey and the sniper will find something fun, the rigger currently has no weapons, and the mage refuses to carry a firearm, but I doubt I'll be finding the Rueger Thunderbolt that I'd like to get

Stupid massively hard to locate guns.
Angelone
Aug 21 2005, 06:32 PM
Mixed blessing, Thunderbolts aren't all that great if you plan on using it often. It's more of an "oh crap" weapon. Ingram Smartguns are something you should look into.
Leviathan
Aug 21 2005, 07:23 PM
QUOTE (Angelone) |
Mixed blessing, Thunderbolts aren't all that great if you plan on using it often. It's more of an "oh crap" weapon. Ingram Smartguns are something you should look into. |
Err... funnily enough I dont think an SMG will be of much use to a steal adept with no skill in any firearm other than pistol.
Glyph
Aug 21 2005, 08:20 PM
The Ruger Thunderbolt would not be a good replacement for your Colt Manhunter. It is loud and distinctive-sounding. A silenced heavy pistol is much better. The Thunderbolt might be a good replacement for your shotgun pistol, as a weapon to use when it all hits the fan, but you can still attract the wrong kind of attention with a Ruger Thunderbolt.
Personally, I would keep the shotgun pistol. Also, I would get shock lock rounds for it (they are in Cannon Companion. They have +1 power, but their main function, as ceramic slugs, is to safely shoot out things like door locks without a spray of shrapnel).
On the subject of pistols, I see that you have a shock glove, but no taser. Tasers are very effective weapons, and use the pistol skill, so I would definitely add one to your arsenal. Since this is post-char-gen, get the one from Cannon Companion that does Deadly stun.
As has been previously mentioned, adding thermal damening (also in Cannon Companion, under armor modifications) to your armor would complement your camoflage patterns well. A ruthenium sneak suit can wait until you get richer - hey, it gives you something to save up for. Sammies need cyberware, mages need foci, libraries, etc., and riggers and deckers need lots of expensive tech. Adepts have it comparatively easy. Also on the "to buy" list, get a good maglock passkey and sequencer. A lockpick gun (found in Man & Machine) is also useful, and cheap enough that you could probably afford one now.
Intiation is your friend. If you spend some points on Improved Ability for Wildcat, you should start to get better than most security guards, even the semi-elite ones. The Full Offense move is less useful for a stealth adept, but on the occasions where you surprise an opponent and can get off an unopposed attack, the extra damage helps. Another good adept power is Sixth Sense - it doesn't help with initiative, but it helps a lot with surprise tests.
Angelone
Aug 21 2005, 11:33 PM
QUOTE (Leviathan @ Aug 21 2005, 02:23 PM) |
QUOTE (Angelone @ Aug 21 2005, 01:32 PM) | Mixed blessing, Thunderbolts aren't all that great if you plan on using it often. It's more of an "oh crap" weapon. Ingram Smartguns are something you should look into. |
Err... funnily enough I dont think an SMG will be of much use to a steal adept with no skill in any firearm other than pistol.
|
I had that problem once, then I got a SMG skill. Not trying to sound mean or flamey, but the Thunderbolt is the absolute worst thing you could get as a stealth adept. You only get 4 shots with the thing, if you mess up you're going to need more than that, most likely, and it's LOUD. The Smartgun or any other SMG can be suppressed, have more ammo, and you can choose your rate of fire. Sure you're not going to be the greatest with it in the beginning, but in the long run it'll be hella better.
As a side note it vexes me to no end when people don't think ahead. Sure you can't forsee everything and you might have to improvise, but even a basic plan goes a long way, whether you're taking a road trip (what do you mean you don't have a map?*).
/preach mode off
* Actually happened last week.
EDIT- Took out a cheap shot. Think this gets my point across well enough.
Leviathan
Aug 22 2005, 03:40 AM
QUOTE (Angelone) |
I had that problem once, then I got a SMG skill. Not trying to sound mean or flamey, but the Thunderbolt is the absolute worst thing you could get as a stealth adept. You only get 4 shots with the thing, if you mess up you're going to need more than that, most likely, and it's LOUD. The Smartgun or any other SMG can be suppressed, have more ammo, and you can choose your rate of fire. Sure you're not going to be the greatest with it in the beginning, but in the long run it'll be hella better.
As a side note it vexes me to no end when people don't think ahead. Sure you can't forsee everything and you might have to improvise, but even a basic plan goes a long way, whether you're taking a road trip (what do you mean you don't have a map?*).
/preach mode off * Actually happened last week.
EDIT- Took out a cheap shot. Think this gets my point across well enough. |
It may be loud, but I can still fit a silencer to it. Anways, it was more a case of me looking for the most powerful heavy pistol I could find.
No, I'm not going to be the greatest at the beggining, or at all, there is no way in hell I get enough Karma to burn it on new skills, I need everything for Initiation. Firearms are meant to be *secondary* to my melee skill.
And believe it or not I *did* think ahead, however I've since found out that several of my choices dont work because I didn't know about "Obscure rule #1424-b that completely negates the bonus I expected to get from X" or "In spite of the logic of the way this works, actually *this* works instead".
Also, believe it or not my skill choices were also appropriate for the *character*, not just from a "Lets munchkin the build"
Angelone
Aug 22 2005, 03:55 AM
Obviously you aren't up to snuff in your current campaign so I was suggesting something to help you out, but nevermind.
EDIT- I've been stewing over this for awhile, and I'd like to point a few things out. In YOUR first post you states you are useless in combat:
1. With your skills you aren't the best combatant. Hence the get a SMG and build up the skill. Which had been mentioned earlier.
2. Your melee skill is even with your firearms, therefore it is not secondary.
3. You are a STEALTH adept. You're not supposed to be a combat god.
4. If you want a pistol that fires bursts get a Slivergun. It fires bursts and has an integral slincer/suppressor.
5. One grade of intiation isn't going to make your problems go away. So take the hit and up some skills.
6. Almost posetive you can't get any kind of sound suppression for the Thunderbolt.
QUOTE |
Also, believe it or not my skill choices were also appropriate for the *character*, not just from a "Lets munchkin the build" Stats Body 8 Quick 7 Str 7 Cha 1 Int 5 Will 6
Skills Active Pistols 6 Athletics 6 Stealth 6 [10] Wildcat 6 Wildcat/Close Combat Wildcat/Full Attack (Man, I should never have taken this, didn't realise they get the -2TN bonus to 'block' against your attack Electronics B/R / Secutiry Systems 4/6 Negotiation 1 |
Seem to notice you have high physical attributes and 1 cha., yes not munchy at all. By stealth adept I take it to mean you do B&E work. Yet you have no lockpicking skill. Not everyone uses maglocks, so what are you going to do break down the door? Real stealthy. No passkey in you gear list, but you didn't list it all so if I'm wrong about this sorry.
EDIT#2- You're an orc, orcs are big and can't fit into places some other races can. That may also hinder you. In all seriousness, not being mean here edit 1 got that out of my system. I'd scrap the whole sealth thing atm and try to be a fighter type. There is also nothing wrong with your character, you got unlucky in some spots, and lucky in others. If you're going to continue on the stealth path, combat should be avoided. If a stealth character has to fight things have gone past wrong.
Wounded Ronin
Aug 22 2005, 06:52 PM
The Thunderbolt is something of a Deus Ex Machina to make Lone Star grunts relatively deadly, IMO. Why else would there be this strange rule that Lone Star will harass you for having one if not to just discourage players from taking it?
In any case, the Thunderbolt is pretty powerful, but probably it's not particularly suitable for a stealth character. I'd say more, but the point has already been made by several others.
One final note about sound suppression: if you look in SR3, there's actually a table of TNs for people to hear gunshots, silenced gunshots, etc in a building. So, with a strict interpretation of the rules, sound suppression dosen't mean that your Thunderbolt would be totally silent. As a suppressed burst-fire weapon, it would still be easier to hear than a suppressed Predator based on the TNs outlined in SR3.
In fact, I think that if you want a totally silent weapon you'd need to use a longbow or shuriken or something, rather than a suppressed firearm.
Velocity
Aug 22 2005, 08:21 PM
The Thunderbolt is also patently ridiculous for peace officers. As someone (perhaps Raygun?) pointed out on this site ages ago, no cop is going to carry a gun that only fires in burst mode: forget about firing these things in public 'cause the odds of hitting a civilian just tripled.
Clyde
Aug 22 2005, 08:50 PM
The Thunderbolt isn't much good for a shadowrunner, either. You only get one burst per initiative pass that has a chance of hitting anything. When the brown stuff hits the fan you'll need to bring down bad guys faster than that. Grenades, SMGs or a spread weapon like the Ruger Thunderbolt are just what the doctor ordered when you've got multiple targets in mind.
Also, consider having a mage buddy bind an elemental to you for protection - you can order it to attack or cause a distraction and get on with whatever profitable activity suits your fancy. Same with having a good drone on hand.
Vaevictis
Aug 23 2005, 01:45 AM
QUOTE (Angelone) |
You only get 4 shots with the thing, if you mess up you're going to need more than that |
Actually, for adepts this is not so bad if you bother to invest in "Nimble Fingers." Empty your clip on your turn, then take free actions during the other characters turns to reload. If you're extra paranoid, get "Multi-Tasking" so you can do two free actions in a turn and do a full reload on your turn.
Thunderbolt can accept a barrel mounted accessory, so it can handle gas vents or sound suppressors as you desire. In my opinion, if it gets to the point where a Thunderbolt is needed, you're going to want the gas vent. As Glyph suggests, however, the Yamaha Pulsar taser may be a superior choice in some situations -- as it does 8D, fires semi-auto, only half impact armor applies, and has the electrical shock side effects. Downside is that it's susceptable to insulated armor, and is a magazine loader.
The Slivergun is an awesome choice also; if firing from a stealth position, use a called shot to bypass armor -- in such cases taking some time to Take Aim will usually not be a problem. Bonus points if you bother with Smartlink-II to reduce your called shot modifier to +2.
As far as plans go... plans are made to be scrapped. As the old (and true) cliche states, they don't survive combat with the enemy. The important thing about planning is the act of planning, not necessarily the actual plan that results. Having thought about as many contingencies as possible gets those juices flowing so you're less likely to be caught flat-footed when (not if) things go awry.
Angelone
Aug 23 2005, 02:43 AM
My gripe about the planning is the rest of the team was in combat, that's based on comments about gunfire and explosions, leaving the woefully underprepared stealth adept in the hanging out to dry by alerting everyone on the ship that something was up. Now creating a destraction is sometimes a good thing, but on a ship it's not so bright as they tend to be fairly linear, and easier to lockdown then say a compound with multiple buildings. Not saying it's completely the teams fault, he should have found someplace and hunkered down for a while, but he's fairly new it'll come in time.
Stealth characters are difficult to play if you want to be a "pure" stealth type. Being unseen with all the tech and types of vision the opposition has tough. It's easier to just blast past security than sneak.
Leviathan
Aug 23 2005, 02:03 PM
QUOTE (Angelone) |
My gripe about the planning is the rest of the team was in combat, that's based on comments about gunfire and explosions, leaving the woefully underprepared stealth adept in the hanging out to dry by alerting everyone on the ship that something was up. Now creating a destraction is sometimes a good thing, but on a ship it's not so bright as they tend to be fairly linear, and easier to lockdown then say a compound with multiple buildings. Not saying it's completely the teams fault, he should have found someplace and hunkered down for a while, but he's fairly new it'll come in time.
Stealth characters are difficult to play if you want to be a "pure" stealth type. Being unseen with all the tech and types of vision the opposition has tough. It's easier to just blast past security than sneak. |
Actually, just my luck, I ran into *every* guard on the ship! The others went for the control room and such, I went to seal up the medical bay (yay for splat glue) and then the armoury. I found two guys near the armoury, and four *at* the armoury. I think I just got massively unlucky on that score

for reference, I now have a Sliver Gun, a Yamaha Taser, and a.. something Alta, and some smartlink goggles, so I'm a bit better equipped now.
toturi
Aug 23 2005, 04:28 PM
Advise you to smartlink the Ares Viper Slivergun, this is your stealth gun, no sense giving yourself away with a laser dot. Depending on how your GM views the Yamaha Pulsar(your taser), you might want to add a silencer to it, this weapon is when you want to take someone alive. There's no real need to SL the Morrissey Alta, it has a integral laser sight, load this with EX-EX/APDS rounds at the earliest opportunity, this weapon is your last stand weapon(when your SMG runs out of ammo).
kobura
Aug 23 2005, 11:31 PM
Yeah, what Toturi said about the Slivergun. I think you should've opted for a dartgun/narcoject pistol. Get a couple of different types of doses too. Every stealth addy should have one! It bypasses armor and doesn't make much noise. Think Metal Gear here.
Unfortunately, you don't have shotguns as an active skill. A shotgun would be a good last ditch weapon for you. I understand your want of a little more firepower, but it seems like after you initiate, you might want to spend some karma on shotguns (maybe get it up to 4), get a Defiance T-250 (nothing fancy), get several types of rounds, shocklock, slugs, Ex-Ex. I mean, once your seen and everything's put on alert, you might as well blast your way out.
Quick question though. When you initiate, what new abilities are you going to get?
Leviathan
Aug 24 2005, 09:12 AM
QUOTE (kobura) |
Yeah, what Toturi said about the Slivergun. I think you should've opted for a dartgun/narcoject pistol. Get a couple of different types of doses too. Every stealth addy should have one! It bypasses armor and doesn't make much noise. Think Metal Gear here.
Unfortunately, you don't have shotguns as an active skill. A shotgun would be a good last ditch weapon for you. I understand your want of a little more firepower, but it seems like after you initiate, you might want to spend some karma on shotguns (maybe get it up to 4), get a Defiance T-250 (nothing fancy), get several types of rounds, shocklock, slugs, Ex-Ex. I mean, once your seen and everything's put on alert, you might as well blast your way out.
Quick question though. When you initiate, what new abilities are you going to get? |
Well the Alta had a built in smartlink, so I just got a smartlink system built into the security helmet I salvaged.
I also got the Taser as part of the loot from the last run, the slivergun is the only weapon I actually bought lolz.
As to new abilities, I'm thinking about getting Wall Running, but not really sure.
Angelone
Aug 24 2005, 09:25 AM
That's a good one.
The Alta's a decent gun it just looks like a "melted slag of plastic" was how a shadowtalker described it. It's supposed to be a designer gun so you might be able to get it into more respectable areas than a "regular" gun.
Leviathan
Aug 24 2005, 10:50 AM
QUOTE (Angelone) |
That's a good one.
The Alta's a decent gun it just looks like a "melted slag of plastic" was how a shadowtalker described it. It's supposed to be a designer gun so you might be able to get it into more respectable areas than a "regular" gun. |
Hehe, doesn't worry me what my stuff looks like, my guy is still picking himself up out of the gutters

Heck, the sliver gun that I got one of the party members get hold of for me. It had an in character joke message engraved into it. It took 2 days with a file to remove the message

My sliver gun isn't exactly in pristine condition now
toturi
Aug 24 2005, 01:49 PM
A regular Alta has an integral laser sight instead of a smartlink. Remember you can get vision magnification 3 for 0.25 PPs, and vision mag is incompatible with smartlinks. The chioce is yours, I guess. Again I do not know how your GM is handling armour exactly (it does not seem that he is running it all according to canon), but if he allows you to wear that sec armour without penalties, then by all means go for it. Otherwise, you are better served with a smart goggle.
Leviathan
Aug 24 2005, 02:54 PM
QUOTE (toturi) |
A regular Alta has an integral laser sight instead of a smartlink. Remember you can get vision magnification 3 for 0.25 PPs, and vision mag is incompatible with smartlinks. The chioce is yours, I guess. Again I do not know how your GM is handling armour exactly (it does not seem that he is running it all according to canon), but if he allows you to wear that sec armour without penalties, then by all means go for it. Otherwise, you are better served with a smart goggle. |
My Dm has reorganised the way we are organising armour, I'm down to 5/6 or something in my 'stealth' gear, 7/7 otherwise.
I'm not actually wearing the security armour, just a security grade helmet.
Method
Aug 24 2005, 05:35 PM
[edit]retracted[/edit]
sorry came in late on this one...