No, Blakkie, you're not. If you were, you would realize two important points:
1) All of my conclusions are based on the information I have. This has been stated repeatedly. Enough times that not bothering to take it into consideration is a failure of logic or simple stupidity. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.
2) It's pretty damned obvious I don't have the book. The words "I'll have to check" do not logically mean that I have the book on hand. They logically mean that at some point I'll have to look at the rules. Using that combined with other logic, one comes to the logical conclusion I am planning on buying the book.
3) I'm being bitched at about a system I can't do nothing about by people who I spent the past few days on here representing the views of. Right now, I honestly don't give a shit if I offend someone. If they can't like that I at least made their views known and you can't accept the fact that some people are going to have to change the system or their entire way of playing SR, then both you and my players can come to my house and kiss my ass.
Full Version: Figuring out chargen costs
Sabosect: Just worry about it when you got the book. May not be as bad as it seems. You´re players don´t have the right to give you a hard time because they don´t like what has been revealed about SR4. (at least I don´t think so)
Mintcar, they're paying dearly for today. I prefer not to be a vindictive GM. At least, not too vindictive. I fully expect a TPK next session.
As for this: The only problem is adapting it upward in skill level. If the book has a system for that, I'm beating my players with it.
As for this: The only problem is adapting it upward in skill level. If the book has a system for that, I'm beating my players with it.
| QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 19 2005, 02:04 PM) |
| No, Blakkie, you're not. If you were, you would realize two important points: 1) All of my conclusions are based on the information I have. This has been stated repeatedly. Enough times that not bothering to take it into consideration is a failure of logic or simple stupidity. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. |
Self imposed ignorance through selective culling of information from your mind seems a poor foundation to build reasoning on?
| QUOTE |
| 2) It's pretty damned obvious I don't have the book. The words "I'll have to check" do not logically mean that I have the book on hand. They logically mean that at some point I'll have to look at the rules. Using that combined with other logic, one comes to the logical conclusion I am planning on buying the book. |
Your level of certainity seemed to suggest you actually had, you know, information that contradicted what Adam (i believe it was) had previously given about how Edge worked.
| QUOTE |
| 3) I'm being bitched at about a system I can't do nothing about by people who I spent the past few days on here representing the views of. Right now, I honestly don't give a shit if I offend someone. If they can't like that I at least made their views known and you can't accept the fact that some people are going to have to change the system or their entire way of playing SR, then both you and my players can come to my house and kiss my ass. |
So, you expected that strategies that were tuned to conform to and exploit a detailed system could remain static when the system changed???
I think you'll understand if i pass on the offer of your hospitality?
Sabosect: I would try to get them to accept 2 as the new 3, 4 as the new 5 (or even 6). Would leave more room for improvement in the characters. But I don´t know your players, maybe they wouldn´t buy that.
Tisoz (or anyone with the book), it'd be nice if someone gave a quick rundown of the skill equivalent in the skill chapter (IIRC, the one that says that X value is akin to XXX in real life... Pilot 3 would be "Professional," the equivalent of an airline pilot).
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| Self imposed ignorance through selective culling of information from your mind seems a poor foundation to build reasoning on? |
Meh. I prefer to say I was wrong than not present my conclusions. Sometimes, it's the best way to find out the correct info.
| QUOTE |
| Your level of certainity seemed to suggest you actually had, you know, information that contradicted what Adam (i believe it was) had previously given about how Edge worked. |
Was working on an assumption. I forgot to restate that it is such.
| QUOTE |
| So, you expected that strategies that were tuned to conform to and exploit a detailed system could remain static when the system changed??? |
Actually, I was hoping that they would make it harder to exploit the system without making it easier in other areas. In the end, very little has changed. The only real difference is now you have to pay for a totem, attributes cost a bit more, and you roll dice differently. And, if a certain conclusion someone else made is correct, you advance easier.
| QUOTE |
| I think you'll understand if i pass on the offer of your hospitality? |
Pfft. Go ahead. I was thinking about editting it out. Keep it as an example of why players should not elect someone to deal with their views and then overstress them. In any case, at least I'm not forcing you to play a game where your player is armed with a knife and wearing a loincloth while trying to get out of the Yucaton and back to Seattle alive.
| QUOTE (JongWK) |
| Tisoz (or anyone with the book), it'd be nice if someone gave a quick rundown of the skill equivalent in the skill chapter (IIRC, the one that says that X value is akin to XXX in real life... Pilot 3 would be "Professional," the equivalent of an airline pilot). |
No Rating - unaware
Rating 0 - untrained
1 - beginner
2 - novice
3 - Professional - college athlete, firearms as beat cop, tech as college grad, social as Mr Johnson, vehicle as cabbie, knowledge as 2 year degree (Kind of conflicts with college grad)
4 - Veteran - minor league ball player, marine or airborne, tech as 4 year experience, social as diplomat, vehicle as NASCAR driver, bachelors degree (again I see this conflicting)
5 - Expert - pro athlete, SWAT team member, top scientist, VP, vehicle as Ancients go-ganger(wtf?), master's degree
6 - Elite - Athletic superstar, superstar among elite forces, The Wright Brothers, President, Blue Angel stunt pilot, doctorate degree
7 - Legendary - Athletic legend Babe Ruth, Wild Bill Hickock, Edison, Fastjack, Reagan, Damien Knight, Red Baron, Einstein, Dr. Raven
On NASCAR vs. Ancients, maybe they are saying NASCAR operates in a more controled environment and that on top of the regular NASCAR action of fast cars and opponents rubbing against you the Go-gangers also deal with weapons being fired at you and right-hand turns?
Still i'd have put it the other way around. *shrug*
Still i'd have put it the other way around. *shrug*
Or maybe the Ancients are just the ultimate go-gang. I remember that at some point, Sting (their leader) had Ground Craft 6-7 on that examples table.
Given the bp costs of the different skills, this set of characterizations of different skill levels seems even less realistic than the one in SR3. (And that one was something of a joke.)
| QUOTE (Ellery) |
| Given the bp costs of the different skills, this set of characterizations of different skill levels seems even less realistic than the one in SR3. (And that one was something of a joke.) |
Having that table based solely on skill levels makes much less than in SR3 given that you don't actually use the skill dice in issolation. A Veteran skill level with a high end underlying attribute is going to kick the ass of a Ledgendary with a gimp attribute. Why you'd have a gimp with a Ledgendary skill level of course makes this mostly a hypothetical example, but exagerated for illustration purposes.
Human Attribute Ratings
1 - weak
2 - underdeveloped
3 - typical
4 - improved
5 - superior
6 - maximum unmodified human
I didn't notice anything about skills exceeding linked attributes (may have skipped over, but was looking) or about increasing costs to raise during play.
1 - weak
2 - underdeveloped
3 - typical
4 - improved
5 - superior
6 - maximum unmodified human
I didn't notice anything about skills exceeding linked attributes (may have skipped over, but was looking) or about increasing costs to raise during play.
How does the streetsamurai look? Much less cyber/bioware than in SR3?
SYL
SYL
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
Having that table based solely on skill levels makes much less than in SR3 given that you don't actually use the skill dice in issolation. A Veteran skill level with a high end underlying attribute is going to kick the ass of a Ledgendary with a gimp attribute. Why you'd have a gimp with a Ledgendary skill level of course makes this mostly a hypothetical example, but exagerated for illustration purposes. |
well you can allways pick up some basic stat training
| QUOTE (apple) |
| How does the streetsamurai look? Much less cyber/bioware than in SR3? SYL |
Wired Ref 2 Alpha
Dermal Pl 2 Alpha
Muscle Repl 2 Alpha
Cybereyes - flare, lo-light, potective covers, smartlink, thermo
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||
Wired Ref 2 Alpha Dermal Pl 2 Alpha Muscle Repl 2 Alpha Cybereyes - flare, lo-light, potective covers, smartlink, thermo |
Is it an elf?
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||
No Rating - unaware Rating 0 - untrained 1 - beginner 2 - novice 3 - Professional - college athlete, firearms as beat cop, tech as college grad, social as Mr Johnson, vehicle as cabbie, knowledge as 2 year degree (Kind of conflicts with college grad) 4 - Veteran - minor league ball player, marine or airborne, tech as 4 year experience, social as diplomat, vehicle as NASCAR driver, bachelors degree (again I see this conflicting) 5 - Expert - pro athlete, SWAT team member, top scientist, VP, vehicle as Ancients go-ganger(wtf?), master's degree 6 - Elite - Athletic superstar, superstar among elite forces, The Wright Brothers, President, Blue Angel stunt pilot, doctorate degree 7 - Legendary - Athletic legend Babe Ruth, Wild Bill Hickock, Edison, Fastjack, Reagan, Damien Knight, Red Baron, Einstein, Dr. Raven |
A note (because the point is likely to be drowned out VERY quickly):
Skill Rating: None - Unaware
A complete absence of knowledge or practice. Generally, this degree of ignorance can only be achieved with the Incompetent negative quality.
Skill Rating: 0 - Untrained
The general baseline of knowledge shared by society. This is not incompetence, it is the standard level of untrained knowledge held by any Joe Average.
Skill Rating: 1 - Beginner
Has done this a few times. Can handle some easy tasks, some of the time.
Skill Rating: 2 Novice
Has solid grasp of the fundamentals, but shaky on more complex yet still routine procedures.
Skill Rating: 3 - Professional
Competent at general skilled tasks. “Average” skill level for starting characters and NPCs.
Skill Rating: 4 - Veteran
Very good at what you do; can handle difficult tasks with ease.
Skill Rating: 5 - Expert
Star status: your expertise gives you a reputation.
Skill Rating: 6 - Elite
The “best of the rest.” Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file” unnamed NPCs and starting characters.
Skill Rating: 7 - Legendary
The “best of the best” Someone whose expertise outranks all others in all of known history. Can only be achieved with the Aptitude Quality.
Of course, someone legendary with a linked stat of 4 is worse than an elite with a linked stat of 6.
Plus, you get to be legendary by being about 8% better than your peers (assuming that the legendary and non-legendary also have maxxed stats). This will come as some news to Michael Jordan, I suspect. As a practical matter, in a firefight it won't much matter whether you're legendary or not.
Plus, you get to be legendary by being about 8% better than your peers (assuming that the legendary and non-legendary also have maxxed stats). This will come as some news to Michael Jordan, I suspect. As a practical matter, in a firefight it won't much matter whether you're legendary or not.
| QUOTE (Ellery @ Aug 19 2005, 09:20 PM) |
| Of course, someone legendary with a linked stat of 4 is worse than an elite with a linked stat of 6. Plus, you get to be legendary by being about 8% better than your peers (assuming that the legendary and non-legendary also have maxxed stats). This will come as some news to Michael Jordan, I suspect. As a practical matter, in a firefight it won't much matter whether you're legendary or not. |
On any given Sunday even the legends can lose.
Plus in someways true legendary figures are built beyond skill and even appropriate attribute, incorporating what is sometimes called mental toughness or drive. Damn tough to start trying to include that in a game, though i guess Edge kinda does that a bit.
Wow, just like in World of Darkness, they very obviously have no fucking idea how their descriptors of skill levels and the probability/statistical shifts of those skill levels compare. Amazing. The difference between "novice" and "SWAT team member" is "sometimes, one success more."
Whoopty doo.
Whoopty doo.
| QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 19 2005, 09:41 PM) |
| Wow, just like in World of Darkness, they very obviously have no fucking idea how their descriptors of skill levels and the probability/statistical shifts of those skill levels compare. Amazing. The difference between "novice" and "SWAT team member" is "sometimes, one success more." Whoopty doo. |
Ya, that's why they shouldn't bother with it. Instead show something like a bar with dice pool count before equipment/environmental modifiers. That would run from 'unware' (which i assume means you can't even attempt it) through 18, but you'd only note the levels every 2 or 3 dice.
EDIT: Hrmm, actually 18 is only the human limit. I guess you'd need a bit above that, damn near to 24 to cover off trolls.
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||
No Rating - unaware Rating 0 - untrained 1 - beginner 2 - novice 3 - Professional - college athlete, firearms as beat cop, tech as college grad, social as Mr Johnson, vehicle as cabbie, knowledge as 2 year degree (Kind of conflicts with college grad) 4 - Veteran - minor league ball player, marine or airborne, tech as 4 year experience, social as diplomat, vehicle as NASCAR driver, bachelors degree (again I see this conflicting) 5 - Expert - pro athlete, SWAT team member, top scientist, VP, vehicle as Ancients go-ganger(wtf?), master's degree 6 - Elite - Athletic superstar, superstar among elite forces, The Wright Brothers, President, Blue Angel stunt pilot, doctorate degree 7 - Legendary - Athletic legend Babe Ruth, Wild Bill Hickock, Edison, Fastjack, Reagan, Damien Knight, Red Baron, Einstein, Dr. Raven |
Arguments of whether there should be skill tests or not (and I think it's a matter of consistancy in ability, and not ability in and of itself), I'd just like to point out:
You brought up conflicts between the knowledge skills. I see no conflict there at all.
A 2 year grad from college (such as, say, me) has next to 0 experience with high tech fields. I couldn't tell you how to construct a microchip, splice DNA, track complex geneologys, or do quantum physics. You've gotta be trained above and beyond for that kinda crud.
So basically, Knowledge skills come in two flavors: General education (even in weird situations), and higher learning skills. Higher learning skills theoretically get much more diffucult than general ed, thus their "baseline" of what is considered unaware/untrained is the equivelent of a 3-4 for General Education.
Like I said, makes sense for me, tho the example could've been clearer.
there is allso a diff between knowing what something is and maybe some stuff about it, and being able to actualy do it. like say knowing the basics of a dna profile, what chemistry is action and so on when done vs being able to actualy go thru the steps, use the machines and everything else thats needed to get the result.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Wow, just like in World of Darkness, they very obviously have no fucking idea how their descriptors of skill levels and the probability/statistical shifts of those skill levels compare. Amazing. The difference between "novice" and "SWAT team member" is "sometimes, one success more." Whoopty doo. |
Funny thing with that, it honestly depends on if you have a compitent GM, who knows how to run a game well. Just because it gives you a dice pool to roll and 'the difference is only one success more' doesn't mean you can't use it for something else. Playing exalted, my GM's asked me what a certain skill was at, and if it was high enough I might already know something, or notice a certain plot clue, or that trap i was about to step on.
Just because your skill level of 7 only adds 7 dice to your pool, does not mean, if you have a GM who can actualy run a game that thats all it means. I feel sorry for you if thats all your GM can think of is that it gives you 7 dice to play with.
He's just lashing out. 
| QUOTE |
| Just because your skill level of 7 only adds 7 dice to your pool, does not mean, if you have a GM who can actualy run a game that thats all it means. |
Yeah, but it's kind of sad when the GM has to manually compensate for a dice system's shortcomings, when the dice could do most of it perfectly well on their own if allowed.
| QUOTE (Ellery) | ||
Yeah, but it's kind of sad when the GM has to manually compensate for a dice system's shortcomings, when the dice could do most of it perfectly well on their own if allowed. |
Haven't been following the thread....
But isn't the -point- that the GM takes the stats, and crafts a story of his or her own imaginging, instead of having the dice dictate the setting to him? I've played quite a few games structured to get the dice out of the way of the storytelling, and I find them preferrable.
With the set of rules and modifiers given in SR, I don't think SR is one of those systems. The dice aren't out of the way. If they're in the way, they should be helping you, not making things more difficult.
You said it yourself: those aren't games, they're storytelling.
That's all well and good, but I buy a role-playing game to play a game. I can tell a story without buying any books.
~J
That's all well and good, but I buy a role-playing game to play a game. I can tell a story without buying any books.
~J
| QUOTE (Ellery @ Aug 20 2005, 11:22 AM) | ||
Yeah, but it's kind of sad when the GM has to manually compensate for a dice system's shortcomings, when the dice could do most of it perfectly well on their own if allowed. |
Hang on a second, i thought there was a mechanic for automatic successes in there somewhere?
EDIT: BTW could you please let me know where to find this dice system that covers all possible events and occurances without manual intervention/judgement by a GM. I haven't come across it yet.
EDIT#2: Come to think of it, don't bother. I probably don't have enough space on my book shelves to hold all the volumes.
Nice straw man. Read what I said again.
| QUOTE (Ellery) |
| Nice straw man. Read what I said again. |
Hang on a second, i thought there was a mechanic for automatic successes in there somewhere?
Unless I've completely misunderstood what has been said about SR4, I thought that you could use a point of Edge to get a guaranteed hit.
| QUOTE (SirBedevere) |
| Unless I've completely misunderstood what has been said about SR4, I thought that you could use a point of Edge to get a guaranteed hit. |
Not a use of Edge, but if the dicepool is large enough, you can get automatic successes. 4-7 is one, +1 per 4 there after.
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||
Not a use of Edge, but if the dicepool is large enough, you can get automatic successes. 4-7 is one, +1 per 4 there after. |
So if you get high enough in magic, spells with a threshold of 1 become cantrips?
| QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle @ Aug 21 2005, 01:59 AM) |
| So if you get high enough in magic, spells with a threshold of 1 become cantrips? |
In a word, maybe. Certainly NOT in high-stress situations (i.e. Combat), but if you want to create a specific Trid Entertainment, and you had plenty of time, and you have 4 skill/attribute to spend to get an automatic success, you can do that. It's basically a streamlining mechanic like Take 10 from d20.
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