I'll bet you tell little kids Santa Claus doesn't exist too!! *sob* I love you, Captain Chaos!

Seriously though, Capt. Chaos filled a valuable niche and it certainly makes sense that he was legendary. I mean imagine if DSF were illegal and Adam was our hard core hacker admin. Right there you have a 'legend' in the making, and that's just on a very small scale. It certainly makes sense that if he got 20,000 new members and spent 24/7 doing computer stuff he'd get pretty darn good, far better than anyone here, at running a secret server and other secret internet stuff.

*Sigh* counterveil, you make me sad. Our computer security guy was asking someone to explain the difference between a CD/DVD ROM and a CD-burner/DVD ROM. It would make me cry if I didn't actually do most of the technical work for him. However, in general you may find your 'defense in depth', as typified by a DMZ, has become more popular and will continue to become more popular as time goes on. There are routers now which are affectively a DMZ with a few lights and plugs.

bingo. attackers that only do it out of boredom, your avarage script kiddie, will stop the moment his downloaded tools dont bite.

a more determined attacker will either rebuild said tools or make some new ones based on available data of known exploits.

but the truely determined attacker will go looking for new attacks when the known ones failed. going thru a checklist of known lazy coding flaws.

so some of the best kind of defenses are the ones that have atleast 3 layers, where only two of them are in contact at any one time.

still, any defense designed and maintained by a human can be overcome by a human. thats just the way it is. there is no 100% security. i think the best you can get is about 75%...

thats why you dont stat a legend

Now use melee combat as an example, or pistols... You know, skills not determined by equipment, which decking and (maybe) rigging are an exception to.

EDIT: adding relevance to the wireless security debate... I dont doubt wireless would be common, but It would never be used on the most secure systems as it offers an extra vulerability without any real tangible benefit to outweigh the disadvantages.

Legend vs. Out-of-the-Box.

Our Legend will be armed with not only his exceptional talent in the field in question, but through his extensive experience will have gained complimentary knowledge and skill to suppliment this talent. Our Legend will have been able to build an impressive ring of contacts that only grows wider, and farther reaching with time. The influence our Legend holds in his circle will not only be tied directly to his skill, but also the reputation for -intelligently using this skill- on countless occaisions. Our Legend will have the resources to acquire technology years ahead of popular cutting edge. Our Legend will have the experience to know the best application of his skill, in any given situation.

Our Legend has proven himself time and time again.

Our Out-of-the-Box, then, based on pure ability, and raw natural talent will be able to perform close to the level of our Legend, if the footing were the same. Initially, however, that character will sacrifice general utility for this specialization. The complimentary knowledge will not be anywhere near as vast as the Legends. The social support structure will not be nearly as vast, and far reaching, and neither will our Out-of-the-Box example hold nearly as much sway or influence. The resources available, out of the box, will not even be close. And while, in raw skill, and raw ability, our competitor may come close to our Legend, they simply cannot hold the In-Character experience that a Legend holds, without first becoming one themself.

You would like a Melee-or-Pistols example?

LegendX, lengendary Street Samurai - Loaded to the gils with deltaware that exceed the limits currently available. Wired Reflexes that allow a ridiculous amount of actions. Genetic alteration that easily exceeds racial maximums. Wirelessly integrated combat utilities that degrade nearby systems deamed hostile, harness their processing power, and compromise their system. Targeting software that completely analyzes hostile composition, and automatically adjust to exploit for maximum effect. Armed with seamless firearms that, like his deltaware, have been customized completely to his persona in form and function from the cellular level and upwards. Nanoexplosive ammunition that is expelled from it's delivery source micrometers from a target, infiltrates their armor, and skin, and detonates inside their bodies.

And how does he have all that? Friends, resources, and years and years inside the game. He is, afterall, a Legend.

And our Out-of-the-Box: A man that, compared to his peers, can pick up an Ares Predator IV and fire it amazingly well, but compared to a Legend, is not nearly as versatile, nor nearly as well equipped.

I believe in that afforementioned example, more than merely skill will determine who is legendary, and who is not. So, while skill is certainly a large aspect of what makes a Legend, a Legend, you cannot blindly accept that there is not a bigger picture at work.

Didn't

Apparently, the idea that "you give something stats and you can beat/kill it" doesn't apply to most legends in the shadows anymore.

SHA-1, just like MD5, isn't encryption. They're finite data sets that are used to represent infinite data. Of course there are going to be collisions.

OT:
A legend only has the benefit of reputation, and some Karma.

Any munchkin can often mix/max their char to be more effective and skillful
than the typical "legend"

When it comes to a run, I do not care how well you are known, I care about
your skill level. Can you get the job done etc.

A Legend will have tonnes of contacts, but the GM wants the run to progress
so he/she will make things happen. A player with a good background story
and a few contacts will also be effective. Granted a legend will have a few
wizz toys he/she managed to pick up on a run, but not many. With min/maxers
you can stretch things a long way, and resourceful intelligent players will stretch
their char's abilities to match any legend.


Having a rep would mean you get jobs and are famous, there are plenty of legendary
people out there that are not heard of. I personally think street/public rep is dangerous. It makes you enemies and gets you unwanted attention. I would rather
be a prodigy than a legend any day.

/OT

what? just because they decided to put hard caps on skills and stats?

FastJack, Captain Chaos, Doc Raven, and Wolfgang Kies, among many others (SPD, etc.) have all been given an exact skill value in SR4 under the skill examples page. I think that's what he's referring to.

Uh-Kinda-But-Not-Really-Even-At-All.

Absolutely... not. Unless you replace the word "legend" with "not-legend". Inwhich case, then yes.

Which is exactly why a Legend, as already mentioned, is exactly the figure for the job, under all circumstances. You don't become one without, as you said, getting the job done. That said, from an OOC and purely statistical value, a Legend ought to not only have numbers on their sheet to back up their status, but also all the little bells and whistles, and frills of the fray to go with it.

(I don't know what frills of the fray are, but it really sounded cool there.)

If the GM chooses to ignore the very vital lines that seperate what is legendary, from what is not, that is their own perogative(godifeellikeimspellingthatwordwrong). That is not a matter of what is conceptualized as a Legend, but rather, how the GM chooses to implement it. The GM, then, will speak for the repurcussions, not the system.

-RM

According to m-w.com, it's prerogative, just FYI. I don't know if other dictionaries spell it perogative, but I've seen people spell it that way a lot.

Yup really. almost always... give me an example of an exception.

mind backing up your through process here? just saying no, even with confabulating the issue... is very low brow.

Many legends are based upon exaggerated stories. Giving statistics gives credence to the character. The fact that harlequin didn't have stats didn't make him a legend... it made him annoying. Giving FJ a decking skill of 10 or whatever it may be makes him awesome. It shows dedication. It should be something not attainable by a new character, even if they are a munchkin.

Legends are subjective. The lines that define a legend are not defined. The point I was making here, petty gnit picking aside, is that a Legend should be defined by stats. They should be something that is not attainable by a new char, but part of the mysticism of a legend is that they are both less than their street rep should make them. (because humans tend to exaggerate), and have more character than the legend protrays them. ie. If FJ was this nova-hot decker with a skill of 10+ but also has an alcohol problem.
:edit:
how do we bring this back on topic?

I think I have done that already a few posts ago. Perhaps you could address that one, before requesting another?

Sure. I believe that more than a number next to a word, under the 'Active Skill' section of a Character sheet creates a legend.

Sure. (As an aside, I believe Fastjack's deck stats alone suggested a decking skill of 15.) However, once again, an Legend cannot be summarized by a single active skill, regardless of horrifyingly high it can be. As I've said, there are many aspects of what forms a Legend outside of this. If at the very least, this is demonstrated in a cap on the availability of chargen equipment.

Yes, agreed. Legends are humans, too. Or Metahumans, as the case may be. But we aren't debating their humanity. We're touching on their capability. And I think it's fairly clear that your chargen run of the mill, regardless of how talented he can become in a single focus, still cannot compete with what is Legendary.

Good question. We could shift the direction of Legends to legendary deckers, perhaps, and hope someone picks up the ball from there, and drops it somewhere around Wireless networks?

-RM

In case no one has said it yet: Wireless is hella good because it reintigrates riggers and hackers into the game.

I'm confused, it says your account is over 2 years old? Yet it seems unclear to you that SR is not a game for frivolity? It is about simulating the real 6th world in as much painful detail as psuedo scientific reckonin' and applied contemporary arcane knowledge can muster.

Please get with the DSF program or your Happy-Fun Chip™ will be forcefully and permanently unjacked. Thankyou.

I'll attempt to bring back on topic with a little comment of my own as far as legends and segue into WL security, how about that?

Let's talk about Legendary people in hacking/security today (no, I don't mean Adrian Lamo). Let's take Stephen Northcutt - famed for his days with the US Navy's SHADOW(?) project, his work with counter-intel practices, and his eventual promotion of the SANS training courses for IT security professionals.

Mister Northcutt has written a ton of books on TCP/IP and general network security and Packet analysis - all excellent reads and all pertinent to a wide range of security topics. He's widely regarded as one of the foremost knowledge-fonts for network-based security. In short, a legend in the security and hacking communities.

Does Mister Northcutt have a hacking skill of 10? Hardly. I know people on the street that could put a wrinkle on his brow when it comes to packet analysis and manipulation, and it is often people on the street that innovate the newest attacks.

So why is Mister Northcutt a legend? It's not because he has a hacking skill of 7 (or whatever the case may be). Instead his skills run the gamut of Knowledge Skills on a wide variety of topics that are all pertinent to Security that a street-hacker will not possess in their 2-3 years of experience. Mister Northcutt brings to the table an immense breadth of experience in dealing with bureaucracies, cutting through red tape, understanding strategic security, and above all for "getting" the big picture.

Your average street hacker will probably have a hacking skill in the area of 3 or 4, will understand how to DoS a router to get at the Access Control Lists and insert a back door, what to do with the root kit, and (rarely) how to cover his tracks. Joy - people like that are a dime a dozen.

Legends (not necessarily Mister Northcutt) understand the theories behind transmission protocols, how to manipulate protocols themselves, and who to really hit for data. They understand network backbone topologies and above all *where* to get this data as it is updated because they have contacts in the industry. They understand not only who to hit for data but whom to sell it to for best bang for the buck. And finally, when the Fit hits the Shan, they know who to blame for a possible break-in and how to do so.

This constitutes not only a good hacking skill (in the area of 5-6), but also a wealth of backup skills to gain the information that hacking itself will not get you. It includes social skills for social engineering when the data just isn't available to an electronic hacker. And finally...contacts. I can't say enough for this last one. A contact (or multitude thereof) will get you information, resources, and backup that you will *not* get as a non-legendary, off-the-street hacker-type.

So how does this relate to Wireless Security? Well here's a quick example.

Off-the-street Wireless Hacker
- Hacking 4-5
- Etiquette (Street) 2
- Decent low-profile war-driving deck / laptop
- Car-mounted Antenna for increased signal
- Crappy car
- Lotz uv Warez (that he doesn't fully understand but read a post on a message board about, and can kinda get running)

Legendary Wireless Hacker
- Hacking 6-7
- Electronics 3-4
- Knowledge (Software Engineering) 5
- Knowledge (Law) 2
- Etiquette (Street) 4
- Etiquette (Corp) 4
- Stealth 2
- Awesome low-profile war-driving PDA jury-rigged for increased signal
- Warez that he posted to the internet and that he fully understands

The Legendary hacker of today can get all this data without even having a PDA/laptop/deck on them. They can bluff their way into a building pretending they are someone else, sit down at an empty cube, reboot a box with the proper procedures to get admin/root, formulate an attack based on the situation, and all while fending off inquisitive real employees by pointing at the fake bluetooth earpiece he isn't really having a conversation on.

Our standard Shadowrun Hacker should be somewhere inbetween the run-of-the-mill hacker and the legendary hacker.

Now...some may argue that the Hacking / Decking skill in Shadowrun is supposed to constitute a totality of hacking skill. If so, then someone bring a Ninjutsu skill into the game that also encompasses stealth, swords, throwing stars, and totally flipping out and being a badass

I know. That's why I specified that it was hashing. The process of finding weaknesses to allow finding collisions in less than brute-force time is similar to finding cryptographic weaknesses, however.

Except that's complete bullshit, because they were never deintegrated.

~J