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Chiba Cowboy
Okay, I don't know if anyone has directly addressed this question yet. Shadowrun has always had things you hated about it, SR4 was never going to be the exception. All things considered however, what do you think?

BTW, this is my first post here. I look forward to alienating you all with tedious, essentially contestable and subjective opinion. On with the show...

Kagetenshi
You'd probably get a better answer if you waited a few weeks on this poll.

~J
Chiba Cowboy
Of course I understand what you are saying. I'm trying to get the general impression of all those people who zerg rushed the FanPro booth at Gencon. After all, these are mainly the hardcore indivdiduals (who live in the proxmity - or have the disposable income/time to do it) and their opinions are usually the most interesting ones.
blakkie
Agreed. It'll likely take some time after getting the source books, to read and perhaps play to be definative.
Chiba Cowboy
I think Shadowrun has always had a kind of unique fanbase that separated it from most other RPG's. Being rules-heavy, gritty and rather genre-bending it alienated a lot of people. Of course, these things are basically what contributed towards it being such a good game. I hope that it still strives to be realistic (or as realistic as it ever was before you chime in...), places the emphasis firmly back on the street and makes that Geisha girl with the dikoted hair pin shit your pants.

Grinder
I voted "can't decide" as i haven't played SR4 or at least read the rule book.
6thDragon
I liked the rules system for all the old whitewolf games (vampire, werewolf) this seems to be going in that direction so I'm sure I'll look at the changes in a possitive light.
Bull
I say yes, having played and run a number of games now, not to mention endlessly shilled the game. Of course, i'm also a tad biased about it as well, thanks to said shilling... But... smile.gif

Bull
mmu1
QUOTE (Bull)
Of course, i'm also a tad biased about it as well, thanks to said shilling... But... smile.gif

Bull

A good reason why the people involved in the development should probably abstain. wink.gif
Nerbert
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 22 2005, 12:58 PM)
Of course, i'm also a tad biased about it as well, thanks to said shilling...  But... smile.gif

Bull

A good reason why the people involved in the development should probably abstain. wink.gif

It would be nice to get some behind the scenes information on some of the specific rule change decisions. Stupid NDAs...
Kagetenshi
Indeed, I'd be very interested in knowing the specific thought processes behind changes.

~J
Lindt
The book is out, the NDA dosent apply anymore.
Me too Kage, me too.

From what I GMed (which, because the book wasent actually out yet, was a bit of a clusterf*ck) it seemed to be a very smooth, if somewhat confusing system. Im sure it will play FASTER, but Im not convinced about better.
Chiba Cowboy
Well as of this post, only 17% of people are definately saying that SR4 is inferior to the previous version. I guess FanPro will be happy.
Kagetenshi
That's one way to spin it. I mean, I'm sure they will be, but they've got no cause to be based on this poll—most people still don't have the book and thus can't make a final judgement.

I will point out that of the two groups who have made up their mind, the people who don't think it's an improvement are about 40%.

~J
Demonseed Elite
There's very little that's scientific or representative about this poll anyway, so I doubt it'll factor much into anything at FanPro. They'll be looking at sales numbers, I imagine.

And keep in mind that the NDA still does cover, and will always cover, the developmental process for SR4. I'm sure some details will be mentioned here and there, because they aren't major trade secrets or anything, but most of the devs who were really in the know as to intentions don't post here very much. And by far, most of the design decisions came from Rob, of course, and I doubt he'll stop by to post why he made them.
Chiba Cowboy
I take your point. However, the people that have commented are largely hardcore fans (which I imagine is the population of dumpshock). Shadowrun is unpopular with the mainstream (you only have to scan RPGnet to see how many people whinge about the ruleset) and SR4 I believe is as much about fishing for new customers as it was about keeping the existing. If a complete revamp doesn't stop the traditional fanbase from buying products, then they can only really win. Plus it has a ninja on the cover.
wagnern
It looks promising, I have built my charictor, my friends are doing the same. Friday we will find out.

Chiba Cowboy
This poll is just a little indicator of initial reactions. Obviously sales and the bottom-line are what is important. I don't think they would be too displeased though, given some of the outright hostility and speculation of the past months.
blakkie
It is a nearly redundant poll. *shrug* For what it's worth that mid-teens range of strongly negative is about the same as for months here.

It would not surprise me in the least if the actual number of people here that don't pick up and read the SR4 BBB in the next month (whether legally or illegally) is going to be more like single digit percetanges. I'm guessing the number that play it at least a couple sessions is going to be up around 90% too. All the hissing and spitting and gnashing of teeth you hear around here directed at SR4 is just a chorus of "we love you SR, we are your hopeless fanboi slaves, where can we send our money".

QUOTE
The book is out, the NDA dosent apply anymore.


Not fully true. What is in the book isn't covered by the NDA. What was considered for the book and didn't make it and the reasons, processes, and conversations from during development likely are.
mmu1
What is it they say about visiting a sausage factory?

The D&D 3E to 3.5 transition - which had tons of developers posting things on the "revision" process - sort of soured me on the idea of seeing what goes on behind the scenes. Especially when I realized that I (and a lot of other regulars) understand the rules better than most of the people hired to make changes to them...
Chiba Cowboy
QUOTE
It is a nearly redundant poll. *shrug* For what it's worth that mid-teens range of strongly negative is about the same as for months here.

It would not surprise me in the least if the actual number of people here that don't pick up and read the SR4 BBB in the next month (whether legally or illegally) is going to be more like single digit percetanges. I'm guessing the number that play it at least a couple sessions is going to be up around 90% too. All the hissing and spitting and gnashing of teeth you hear around here directed at SR4 is just a chorus of "we love you SR, we are your hopeless fanboi slaves, where can we send our money".


I see what you mean, it is very consistent. Pretty harsh though on the fanboi call !
mintcar
Of the things that I know from reading everything anybody has said about it here since GenCon, some things seem clearly better others seem worse. For me, the improvements are much more numerous. The more I know the more I like it. But itīs not all I had hoped. I would have liked more changes and more simplification. On the other hand itīs nice that the complexity is still there in a way. Letīs say I like it and there seems to be only gain from the change, still complex but more fluid.. But I could have taken a few losses to get even more gain. Need to try it out off course before I can say for sure.
blakkie
QUOTE (Chiba Cowboy)
Pretty harsh though on the fanboi call !

Reality can be that way some times. wink.gif
Chiba Cowboy
QUOTE
Reality can be that way some times. wink.gif


Yeah... tell me about it *sigh*
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 23 2005, 09:25 AM)
It is a nearly redundant poll.

Not remotely true. "Is it good" is a very different question than "Is it better than what it's replacing".
QUOTE
What is it they say about visiting a sausage factory?

The D&D 3E to 3.5 transition - which had tons of developers posting things on the "revision" process - sort of soured me on the idea of seeing what goes on behind the scenes. Especially when I realized I (and a lot of other regulars)understand the rules better than most of the people hired to make changes to them...

I suppose I want to find out how it went down out of a sort of masochism—I suspect that certain processes were not followed, suspect it very strongly, and I want proof. I'm not sure why.

~J
blakkie
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 23 2005, 09:26 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 23 2005, 09:25 AM)
It is a nearly redundant poll.

Not remotely true. "Is it good" is a very different question than "Is it better than what it's replacing".

Yet the strongly negative answers are within a vote or two of being the same percetage....similar percentages to what you'll find in polls 2 months ago. The undecided and positive answers have different breakdowns between the polls, but there are also a different number of questions over differing ranges.

Given that most posters here haven't had a chance to actually read the rules (as helpful as some of these posts are) much less play the game, the fine detail between "SR4 is better than SR3?" and "what do you think of SR4 at this point?" is going to be lost on many.
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