Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Astral Space, Essence, and the Awakened
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Community Projects
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Sphynx
I agree.

The Magic attribute should have no affect on spell effects. Using Force to control things will fix one of the biggest problems in the game. All spells being cast at Force 3 or 5. Especially if #2 (Dice Pool limitations absed on Force) is taken into consideration.

I like the idea on Heal/Treat, but I'd have to think more on it.

I disagree on Increased Reflexes (as I'm sure you'd expect alot of people would). Reflexes should, IMHO, be a max of Force/2 rounded up (so Force 5 or 6 'caps' the spell).
Link
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Using Force to control things will fix one of the biggest problems in the game. All spells being cast at Force 3 or 5.

Is this for purposes of keeping drain TN down?

If so, what about not halving force for drain but giving drain resistance a staging value of 1. Who here remembers the old ways?
Sphynx
I thought a bit on this (sorry for the delayed reply) and while I do think that is a better system Link, I agree with what I believe the general premise was in the current system. To keep stun and physical mechanics using the same system.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (nezumi)
One that I think needs to be specifically introduced in regards to countering magical threats through mundane means
Um, why? Do regular mooks typically install their own home alarm systems? Protect their personal information from fraud by themselves? Track down people who commit crimes against them? No, of course not; this is what subcontracting is for. Remember that 1% is about 1 in 100; this is the equivalent of a couple people per apartment building, or per two blocks in a housing tract. I imagine that the term "Neighborhood Watch"[ers] to suddenly become popular again.

QUOTE
Astral & Essence
A) Astral scouting is overpowered
  1 Introduce more dual-natured plants for magical defense
  2 Wards can be created by mundanes
  3 Astral forms cannot hear the material world
  4 Astral bodies cannot pass through other astral bodies (including the earth)
  5 Current rules for spirits finding intruders in a building are overpowered
  6 We need more explanation on how stealth works against astral perception
  7 Range modifiers apply to perception & spellcasting
As I said, Neighborhood Watch[ers]. I don't think we need extra rules here.

QUOTE
B) Magicians and adepts can take cyber without serious penalty
  1 Reduce cost of initiation, but it does not increase the magic rating (to combat cybered mages)
  2 Geasa taken against magic loss from cyber or bio counts against all adept powers, not just one point
  3 Essence is an attribute of the astral form, essence reducing drugs & cyber are reflected in the form (although do not reduce the form's functionality)
  4 By canon, a form whose body has died will already die in Essence hours
  ! We need to define what 'essence' is!!
    i Why are higher essence characters easier to heal?
  5 Remove geasa as a game option
  6 Eliminate magic loss from deadly wounds and stun
Hm. Well, if you're eliminating magic loss from deadly wounds and stun, and allowing stim patches and focus addiction rules to cause Magic Loss via Essence Loss, then the only reason geasea would exist would be to counteract cybersurgery. In that vein, maybe it should be removed.

Then again, there's also my old idea of weaving it together with Aspected Magery. Also make the fulfillment of talisman, gesture, and other "easy" gaesas take a free action to use, as Bitbasher suggested in that thread. Because of that simple rule, having more than one Geas would require you waste an init pass messing with your geasea just to cast a single spell.
QUOTE
C) The connection between an astral form and its body is unclear
  1 When projecting, the mage is completely unaware of the condition of his body and wounds it receives, and the body does not show any damage when the astral form is attacked. 
  2 When the mage projects, all stun damage becomes physical damage on the astral self. When he returns, astral physical damage
    i Explanation: the mind is essence, the body physical, so when separated, each has one damage track (back to 'define essence')
  2b When the mage projects, all drain is stun
  3 Explation of canon: Silver cord - there's a microscopic line connecting the form to its body that allows for a sense of the bodies condition and for the form to track the body
  X How do we handle an astral form who is knocked unconscious while projecting?  Does he hang in astral space until he regains consciousness or dies?  Does he 'snap back' to his body?
I perfer the "snapback" effect, but really only because that's the way it already is and it really doesn't need changing. I can see the argument though.
QUOTE
Spells
A) Detection spells should be broken into direct and indirect categories.  Direct spells (mind probe, detect (object)) are resisted, indirect (night vision) are not
B) Drop invisibility and improved invisibility, replace with concealment or SEP field (adds successes to TN to spot)
Agree with both, unsurprisingly.
QUOTE
C) Spell defense is an oddity and should be straightened out
  1 Make it solely a function of spell pool
  2 If spell defense is being limited like this, allow for it to be spontaneous
I'm not sure about spontaneous, at least not if you're trying to protect other people. Just for yourself I think would be okay, though. Absolutely agree on the spell pool only thing.
QUOTE
D) What is the result of casting THROUGH a background count?
  1 Use the highest of the two endpoints (not the middle)
  2 For elemental manipulations, use only the caster's BG, since the spell travels in the physical
  3 Use the highest rating between the two endpoints inclusively
I vote option 3 for everything, just to keep it uniform and relatively comprehendable.
QUOTE
E) Spell ranges
  1 Should suffer range modifiers (and therefore benefit from scopes and binoculars
  2 Should not be castable outside of the manasphere (you can't hit the moon)
Agree.
QUOTE
F) Manipulation as a category is too broad
  1 Move elemental manipulation to Combat spells
  2 Break Manipulation into two new categories, Physical Manipulation (elemental, telekinetic and transformational) and Control Manipulation (as it stands)
Agree with the first, though I'm unsure what the second will help with.
QUOTE
G) Remove spells that create matter to avoid having to debate laws of conservation of mass and energy (this only impacts two or three spells and spirit powers)
Um, sure, why not?

QUOTE (nezumi)
Firstly, as I've said elsewhere, magic and cyber is an uneven dichotomy.  While cyber is generally seen as a trade-off and ultimately bad for you, eating away your human soul and resulting in your not getting invited to parties, magic is (as far as PC options are concerned) always good, environmentally friendly, powerful, limitless, and usually invisible to most people.  I don't feel like Shadowrun magic jives well with the cyberpunk setting.  Magic should not be benefits with no drawbacks, it needs to be a trade like cyberware is.  Mages should become more ungrounded, bring the horrors closer or something.  This may be out of the scope of SR3R, but I hope it isn't.  It's so fundamental to the system that I don't feel that it could be addressed in any other forum.  If I'm the only person who feels this way, I'll drop it though.
Heh. As much as I'd love to see this, it's probably as much of a non-starter as my own proud nail. Namely, the integrating Thresholds thing.

Let's not forget that, unless you're a mage, Essence doesn't mean a whole lot either, so it's not like cyberware has huge negatives.
Kagetenshi
Other than, you know, raising your TN to be healed sky-high, making you easier to spot (IIRC, sub-3-Essence people drop a point in Signature), and making it much, much harder for you to get more 'ware.

~J
Bodak
QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
If you accept that by projecting you're 'rejecting' your meat - you leave behind all it's limitations, because you prefer the freedom of astral movement, then that explains essence loss and death if you leave it too long. Your rejection also explains that there's no easy "waking up" from astral projection, you need to astrally get back to your body.

If you take deadly stun damage while projecting, you do instantly leash back to your meatbod. Mages in my games have worn shock watches set to 4 hours 59 minutes so that if they were trapped by astral wards, stuck tunnelling through the earth, trying to hide while being chased by various spirits, or otherwise detained while astrally projecting, their watch would go off before they ran out of essense, stun them unconscious, and a few minutes later they would wake up in their body. Checking for magic loss is far better than certain death due to essence loss.
nezumi
To answer some questions...

Magical security -
I don't expect the 'average mook' to have a magical security system, but an entire group of average mooks should. More importantly, the lack of mundane magical security enforces the current unbalance of power; magic trumps cyber, magic trumps magic, cyber trumps only cyber. There needs to be a non-magical something that can effectively prey upon magic OR magic should not be so powerful against mundanes (like if essence loss increased the TN for spell targeting on ALL spells, not just healing spells).
Herald of Verjigorm
14S rifle from 1.2 km trumps mage.

"Magic" may not be overcome by any mundane concept that doesn't create a background count, but mages can be easily removed from the threat list by anyone with the right skills and some semblance of opportunity.
Kagetenshi
14S from 1.2km is somewhat more than "some semblance of opportunity".

~J
Platinum
QUOTE
QUOTE (nezumi)
One that I think needs to be specifically introduced in regards to countering magical threats through mundane means

Um, why? Do regular mooks typically install their own home alarm systems? Protect their personal information from fraud by themselves? Track down people who commit crimes against them? No, of course not; this is what subcontracting is for. Remember that 1% is about 1 in 100; this is the equivalent of a couple people per apartment building, or per two blocks in a housing tract. I imagine that the term "Neighborhood Watch"[ers] to suddenly become popular again.


I have to agree with Eyeless here. I think magic should be needed to counter magic. You don't have sammies beating information out of a computer system, why should magic be any different.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Astral & Essence
A) Astral scouting is overpowered
  1 Introduce more dual-natured plants for magical defense
  2 Wards can be created by mundanes
  3 Astral forms cannot hear the material world
  4 Astral bodies cannot pass through other astral bodies (including the earth)
  5 Current rules for spirits finding intruders in a building are overpowered
  6 We need more explanation on how stealth works against astral perception
  7 Range modifiers apply to perception & spellcasting
As I said, Neighborhood Watch[ers]. I don't think we need extra rules here.

I agree here with the original poster. No reason why a mundane with a sorcery skill could not create a ward, just like they can talismonge. Astral forms should be able to pick up emotional emanations based on the conversation if the person is not masking.

I disagree with 5. Depending on how much living material and how many people are in a building it should be easy. I think personally, that there should be a TN modifier kind of based on a cover modifier. no life in a building .... you stand out like a bonfire in the night. If there is alot of life, (other people and plants) then you can hide much better, as there is more to sift through)

QUOTE
QUOTE
B) Magicians and adepts can take cyber without serious penalty
  1 Reduce cost of initiation, but it does not increase the magic rating (to combat cybered mages)
  2 Geasa taken against magic loss from cyber or bio counts against all adept powers, not just one point
  3 Essence is an attribute of the astral form, essence reducing drugs & cyber are reflected in the form (although do not reduce the form's functionality)
  4 By canon, a form whose body has died will already die in Essence hours
  ! We need to define what 'essence' is!!
    i Why are higher essence characters easier to heal?
  5 Remove geasa as a game option
  6 Eliminate magic loss from deadly wounds and stun
Hm. Well, if you're eliminating magic loss from deadly wounds and stun, and allowing stim patches and focus addiction rules to cause Magic Loss via Essence Loss, then the only reason geasea would exist would be to counteract cybersurgery. In that vein, maybe it should be removed.


1. So what is the point of initiation? just taking metamagics? then why not change them to a skill?

I think over all I like second edition magic rules much better. I know that learning spells are a pain for each of the different damage levels, and you get metamagics on first initiation, but if you tweak those, you have a better base to start from.

(Essence is the level which the spirit is in harmony with the body.)

Geasa should be a penalty, like in second edition. If you lose two points of magic, you will have to learn cast differently, to channel power. (you can shed a geasa upon initiation) Geasa in third edition was a munchkins way of getting out of augmentation penalties.

Focus addiction rules are stupid. you know what the penalty is for foci? Grounding or having the possibility of losing your foci. being really weak when they are taken away. those are great penalties so often overlooked.

QUOTE
Then again, there's also my old idea of weaving it together with Aspected Magery. Also make the fulfillment of talisman, gesture, and other "easy" gaesas take a free action to use, as Bitbasher suggested in that thread. Because of that simple rule, having more than one Geas would require you waste an init pass messing with your geasea just to cast a single spell.


That is just cool.

I am continuing in another post so it doesn't get too long.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 23 2007, 09:28 AM)
14S from 1.2km is somewhat more than "some semblance of opportunity".

Indeed, it is a trump. However a shotgun at 37 meters is usually enough to outrange a Detect Enemies.
2bit
From that aspected magery thread:
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
a Domain Geas would restrict the magician from using magical skills outside of a very restricted domain (for instance, occupied buildings.)
Sorry, I have to:
"I can turn invisible, but only when no one's around!"
nezumi
QUOTE (Platinum)
I have to agree with Eyeless here. I think magic should be needed to counter magic. You don't have sammies beating information out of a computer system, why should magic be any different.

But it is different. A decker can't use hacking to directly attack a street sam either. The two really can't directly influence each other, there's little cross-over. A rigger can directly attack a street sam, but a rigged vehicle is still vulnerable to the street sam's weapons (APDS, rocket launchers, etc.) There is cross-over, but the two are at least able to counter each other. A mage can attack a sam while being invulnerable to counter attack (through spirits, invisibility, extreme range, etc.) There is one-sided cross-over. That seems unbalanced to me.


That said:
QUOTE

No reason why a mundane with a sorcery skill could not create a ward, just like they can talismonge. 


This is the sort of counter I was talking about. A street sam who can erect wards can create at least the most basic defenses against magical attack.

QUOTE
14S rifle from 1.2 km trumps mage.


No, it really doesn't.

A rifle at that range, even accepting the ridiculous "scope reduces range to 0 rule" is still looking at significant modifiers; cover, light, fog and so on. Meanwhile, a mage suffers ZERO range penalties, zero light penalties, limited fog and cover penalties. While your 14S rifle isn't even available at chargen, his 6D manabolt spell most certainly is (and can't be dodged by you and can't be resisted with armor).

But that's giving the sam the benefit. Lets put them on more even keel.

The mage is invisible, knows how to use cover, has his own 14S rifle, and has an elemental on call. Now what does your sam do? At 1.2 km, he's out of range of ultrasound. You can't see him. You can't hear him, but he can spot YOU with a perception check, or by using watchers. He can also sit back and send his spirit to attack you, in which case your charisma 3 street sam is basically nuked (since immunity to weapons will negate most things your character will have available).

That is not what I would consider balanced.

Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 23 2007, 11:18 AM)
The mage is invisible, knows how to use cover, has his own 14S rifle, and has an elemental on call.† Now what does your sam do?

Ask the rigger to kill it.

But like I said in my response earlier. 37m is all you usually need to get surprise on a paranoid mage (who will either have spent significant resources on a force 6 sustaining focus for Detect Enemies, or is at a 1 or 2 point sustaining penalty) and that's short range for an assault rifle, so the cybered surprise can roll his many reaction dice vs. a 2, while the mage rolls a few reaction dice vs. a 4 and then proceeds to get shredded.
Now, you can easily counter this by mentioning the mages friend the MBW enhanced troll with enough armor to ignore a railgun. That imediately gets to the point that while magic can do many things, you shouldn't look at SR as a deathmatch between archetypes.

Grenades out-kill spells consistently at starting forces and conditionally at higher forces. There is no smartlink for manabolt. FAB3 and background counts will do absolutely nothing to the MBW troll with the custom FA shotgun.

Yes magic needed more vulnerabilities than were in the main SR3 book, that's why more were added in MitS. As for wards, in favor of them being more common and limited more by litigation than lack of ability. I could easily see a law that wards may not restrict access for the astrally handicapped (dual nature SURGE flaw) beyond the physical impediments. Locked door, ward allowed. Unlocked door, no ward. This would also allow the legal parallel between alarm wards and security cameras.
Kagetenshi
37km is definitely not short range for an assault rifle. Nor is 361m, which is what you need to escape an extended-range Detect Enemies spell at that force.

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 23 2007, 12:11 PM)
37km is definitely not short range for an assault rifle.

SR3 GM screen, ranges, assault rifle, short: 0-50. Sport rifle is 0-100 and sniper is 0-150.

It is long for the shotgun I incorrectly cited in a previous post, and medium for the SMG I thought about using in the argument.

I also noticed that the 1.2km I used earlier would have to be a custom extended barrel sniper rifle, so even less useful in the argument.
Platinum
QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 23 2007, 11:18 AM)
The mage is invisible, knows how to use cover, has his own 14S rifle, and has an elemental on call.  Now what does your sam do?


Ultrasound, tactical computer, supression fire, a couple of grenades. Shadowrun is a game of rock,paper,scissors where everyone has their own areas of expertise. It's more about preparation and tactics than just raw archtype abilities.

Detect enemies doesn't work against a well planted bomb.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
SR3 GM screen, ranges, assault rifle, short: 0-50. Sport rifle is 0-100 and sniper is 0-150.

Check your units.

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 23 2007, 12:25 PM)
Check your units.

Ah, thank you. Typo corrected. Also, Platinum wrote a far superior counter than my rambling mess, lets use that one to continue the debate.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (nezumi)
QUOTE (Platinum @ Mar 23 2007, 09:33 AM)
I have to agree with Eyeless here.  I think magic should be needed to counter magic.  You don't have sammies beating information out of a computer system, why should magic be any different.

But it is different. A decker can't use hacking to directly attack a street sam either. The two really can't directly influence each other, there's little cross-over. A rigger can directly attack a street sam, but a rigged vehicle is still vulnerable to the street sam's weapons (APDS, rocket launchers, etc.) There is cross-over, but the two are at least able to counter each other. A mage can attack a sam while being invulnerable to counter attack (through spirits, invisibility, extreme range, etc.) There is one-sided cross-over. That seems unbalanced to me.
A decker can also hack Lone Star and get the mage framed for a quadruple homicide. What's your point?


QUOTE
That said:
QUOTE
No reason why a mundane with a sorcery skill could not create a ward, just like they can talismonge. 

This is the sort of counter I was talking about. A street sam who can erect wards can create at least the most basic defenses against magical attack.

Er, but ward-making doesn't use Sorcery skill; it uses Magic rating. That's why every mook with a Magic rating can make one, even if they can't do any other magic at all.

Or do you propose changing that?
Platinum
I would be fine with changing the mechanic to use sorcery to erect a ward, but it would take hours to construct, much like a hermetic circle, (and cost a pretty penny)

an instant ward would be out of the question.




QUOTE
But it is different. A decker can't use hacking to directly attack a street sam either. The two really can't directly influence each other, there's little cross-over. A rigger can directly attack a street sam, but a rigged vehicle is still vulnerable to the street sam's weapons (APDS, rocket launchers, etc.) There is cross-over, but the two are at least able to counter each other. A mage can attack a sam while being invulnerable to counter attack (through spirits, invisibility, extreme range, etc.) There is one-sided cross-over. That seems unbalanced to me.


You are not thinking like a criminal. A decker can trap a sammie in an elevator, can enable a building's defenses, leak footage of the sammie ... ruin his rep ... reprogram his simsense ring for psychotropic BTL... the possiblities are staggering.

Sure a mage can send a spirit after a sammie ... but a sammie doesn't always travel alone. Spirits that attack someone get investigated by paranormal cops. Just because you can be invisible and send a spirit after someone doesn't mean they are defenseless. Everything depends on anonymity, and planning things out properly. Ultrasound trumps your invisibility. If you know who is after you and investigate their habits, you can always find a way to catch them unaware. If you know they have a sustaining focus and detect enemies... wait till just before they have to reactivate it.

Someone that has detect enemies always active gets a massive amount of false positives. after a while they just want to sleep undisturbed, and drop it.

Magic is not the end all be all.
Eyeless Blond
...though it can be through initiation. Maybe we should consider optional rules to--how did nezumi put it--"require eating puppies or something," to initiate. I heard things about how magic in SR2 involved forcing your mind to become insane for a brief period. Did that ever have mechanical consequences that we can exploit here?
hyzmarca
Dude. Any sammie can beat a Force 12 spirit to death with a fishing pole much more easily than he can send a volkswagon to the great highway in the sky with his predator. .
nezumi
Again, I have no question that any character type, decker, rigger, sam or mage, can whip any other character type when the first character type has the advantage of knowing his target and having the time to plan a real ambush.

My problem is that in a one-on-one mash-up, when no one has significant advantage over the other so you don't have time to spend weeks planning an ambush or what-have you, the mage has a clear and significant advantage in combat over every character type except the (drone) rigger (remember a spirit can manifest in the cockpit of a normal vehicle rigger. Actually, now that I think about it, even a drone rigger is in trouble since it takes so little time for a watcher pack to find him where ever he's hiding.)

The end result in our 'paper-rock-scissors' is, generally speaking, rigger and mage trump each other and everything else, sam and adept trump each other and anything below them, and the decker is a wild card.

If we reduce how silly vehicle damage works out, either negating all damage or taking serious damage, it becomes a little more balanced in that a sam/adept can trump a rigger and a rigger has a slight advantage over a mage, while the mage can generally beat the sam/adept.

I'm of the opinion that mages and sams can be brought in-line by:
-Allowing for the mundane creation of wards
-Reworking spirits "immunity to normal weapons", since apparently a fishing pole is not a normal weapon, but against guns, again we have an all or nothing situation.
-Reducing how insanely easy it is for spirits (especially watchers) to find anyone almost any circumstances, or at least how there's largely no defense against this for mundanes (I cannot imagine that after forty years of magical surveillance threats the corporations haven't found a more convenient, cost effective method than huge wards).
-Better defined rules on using astral camouflage

I would also be interested, but doubt it will be as popular in enacting rules for:
-Detecting astral activity - in theory this stuff already exists today, as paranormal hunters watch magnetic and IR radiation levels for signs of invisible spirits. This would not tell you who is there, what they're doing or any details like that, just when you have company and when you don't, and it can be defeated (most easily due to its extremely short range)
-A way of neutralizing astral activity in the area, perhaps by being able to temporarily create a background count, being able to easily "buy" spirit services, etc.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (nezumi)
The end result in our 'paper-rock-scissors' is, generally speaking, rigger and mage trump each other and everything else, sam and adept trump each other and anything below them, and the decker is a wild card.

If we reduce how silly vehicle damage works out, either negating all damage or taking serious damage, it becomes a little more balanced in that a sam/adept can trump a rigger and a rigger has a slight advantage over a mage, while the mage can generally beat the sam/adept.
Well, then, what's the problem? Are you saying the solution is to fix vehicle damage?

QUOTE
I'm of the opinion that mages and sams can be brought in-line by:
-Allowing for the mundane creation of wards
Still not liking this one. I don't like the idea of a mundane having such a powerful tool to use against mages. And, frankly, a ward is a powerful tool for a mundane, even more powerful than for a mage because there is absolutely nothing for him to lose in warding everything and everywhere.

QUOTE
-Reworking spirits "immunity to normal weapons", since apparently a fishing pole is not a normal weapon, but against guns, again we have an all or nothing situation.
Emphatically YES! Just like vehicle damage, Immunity needs a rewrite.

At the same time, we should probably look at that Contest of Wills thing; I really doubt that it was intended for Reach melee weapon mods to be so incredibly important in dealing with spirits.
QUOTE
-A way of neutralizing astral activity in the area, perhaps by being able to temporarily create a background count, being able to easily "buy" spirit services, etc.

Well, according to the MitS rules, creating a low background count (1-2) is as easy as:
A) Murdering a few people (death pollutes the astral rather quickly, but temporarily unless we're talking Auschwitz.)
B) Holding a rave (intense emotions work too, but must be sustained for awhile. Note this leads to Johnsons meeting runners at bar/club areas, to help mask them from astral detection.)
or C) Working out of a drab, Dilbert-like office building, homeless shelter, or whorehouse (apparently sustained feelings of hopelessness and despair also cause background count.)

Getting higher than 2 is a bit tougher, granted; you'll probably have to either FAB somewhere for an extended period or set up a torture chamber.
Platinum
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 24 2007, 02:54 AM)
Dude. Any sammie can beat a Force 12 spirit to death with a fishing pole much more easily than he can send a volkswagon to the great highway in the sky with his predator. .

How many mages you know can do that?
Kagetenshi
Hopefully I'll be able to contribute more to these discussions this evening or tomorrow. While I'm here now, though: fishing poles are always normal weapons (well, ok, weapon focus fishing poles excepted), the only thing that makes them look otherwise is the aforementioned Contest of Wills. That's a different matter from the fishing pole not being a Normal Weapon.

~J
nezumi
I have to agree with Eyeless, I don't think the rules intended for fishing poles to be the ultimate anti-spirit weapon, and I would categorize such as an abuse of a loophole, not a genuine spirit fighting strategy. While I would currently accept it in a game because of how stupidly powerful spirits are, just like I allow vehicle armor to be defeated by hold-outs with APDS due to how powerful vehicle armor is.

I would also still argue that fishing poles are not normal weapons, they're improvised weapons, unless you believe fishing is man-on-fish combat nyahnyah.gif

I also think that, after forty years of magic defense, corporations will have found a better way than killing people in order to make magic hostile zones.
Kagetenshi
INW doesn't actually define itself in terms of normal weapons. It just states that it has no effect against combat spells and weapon foci, and works at half-strength against elemental damage.

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (nezumi)
I would also still argue that fishing poles are not normal weapons, they're improvised weapons, unless you believe fishing is man-on-fish combat nyahnyah.gif

By that logic, all you need is an insame gnomish weaponsmith and all your PCs will have an abundance of abnormal weapons which can do full damage to spirits.

While I can make an argument that the ratzooka might do something to spirits (depending on whether the rat is alive after the launch), high velocity bubble gum has no such justification.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
all your PCs will have an abundance of abnormal weapons which can do full damage to spirits.


It might make for one hell of a memorable fight though.
Platinum
What about a whole bunch of weapons that are designed for fighting spirits?

not just completely ghost buster style either, but there should be something. 40 years is a lot of time to work on paranormal research especially when you now have a quantifyable way of measuring results.

There must be some kind of anti-spirit energy gun or lightning weapon, plasma weapon that would have a damaging effect upon spirits. I don't like the idea that spirits when manifested are basically invulnerable to mundanes. but I don't think that it should be any kind of an easy cake walk either. Some highly specialized eq would be cool, highly priced, and not readily available.

first rule is that the spirit would need to have a physical presence. (manifested) (because astrally they cannot affect the mundane and vice versa) I do think that could use the astral as a sanctuary. (some existing strategies would work i.e. the mundane with a fab covered net can affect them.)

What about mundanes bonding foci?? I would not have a problem with it. It is a very calculated risk, especially with grounding. They do not add dice like they do with adepts, they just allow you to attack magical spirits and beings.
Kagetenshi
You mean materialized. Manifested is "visible but not physical".

Grounding does not currently exist. Reintroducing it has been proposed, but was controversialóno obvious correct path has emerged.

~J
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (nezumi)
I have to agree with Eyeless, I don't think the rules intended for fishing poles to be the ultimate anti-spirit weapon, and I would categorize such as an abuse of a loophole, not a genuine spirit fighting strategy.  While I would currently accept it in a game because of how stupidly powerful spirits are, just like I allow vehicle armor to be defeated by hold-outs with APDS due to how powerful vehicle armor is.
Yes, the hardened armor and spirit INW rules need to be revised, considering how powerful and how all-or-nothing they are. What would you suggest?

QUOTE
I also think that, after forty years of magic defense, corporations will have found a better way than killing people in order to make magic hostile zones.

There are. Did you see B and C on the list? Johnsons hold their meets at large clubs and raves, despite the electronic and personal security risk, because such areas are emotionally charged, thus having a background count.

Megacorps don't seem to pay much attention to morale among their workers, at least not while on the job, despite the proven benefits in output. This is to promote a drab, hopeless working environment, raising the background count at most offices.

Then there's FAB... IV, I think?

What, do you want to make something that reliably generates background count, and nothing else? Okay, sure, come back in a few hundred years.
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Grounding does not currently exist. Reintroducing it has been proposed, but was controversialóno obvious correct path has emerged.

Grounding, eh? Not that I'm necessarily opposed, but do we really need it? Focus addiction kinda already takes care of this; I'm not sure we need the extra rules.
Link
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You mean materialized. Manifested is "visible but not physical".

Grounding does not currently exist. Reintroducing it has been proposed, but was controversialóno obvious correct path has emerged.

~J

Manifested was materialised back in SR1 & 2. Platinum plays SR2 I believe.

The first Grimoire had the most complete astral system (SR2 & Grimoire 2 were very similar). It included grounding, spell interception where the mage wrassled the spell, benevolent spirit powers worked from the astral to the physical and dual natured creatures used physical attributes when projecting which made them imposing. The rules were uniform, astral things had an astral condition monitor and astral combat reigned. Who knows the focus fighting rules from SR3 off the top of their head?

1 vote!
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Link)
Who knows the focus fighting rules from SR3 off the top of their head?

In SR3 there is no rule called "Focus Fighting" so you are probably trying to use obsolete terminology to make it sound superior. To shatter a focus, you have two options: break the toy and break the enchantment. Breaking the toy is best done by a troll with a heavy warhammer. Breaking the enchantment just requires astrally attacking the focus, it resists at its force and breaks at deadly.

All that without even looking at a SR bookcover.
Link
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
In SR3 there is no rule called "Focus Fighting".

Didn't say there was.
QUOTE
Astral objects are non-intelligent astral forms like barriers and foci, which only fight in astral combat if they are attacked. SR3 p176

Foci fight.
Your instinct on 'shattering' foci on the astral was good but it's not the SR3 rule.
Herald of Verjigorm
Your response is beyond absurd. Read the definition of foci and you will see that they are physical objects enchanted to serve as foci. Your quote from the astral combat section is appropriate but incomplete. If I could find any rules on equipment destruction other than the elemental secondary effects in MitS I would point you to that as well.

Unless in your games foci are made suddenly indistructable once enchanted, in which case I want to play and enchant a jumpsuit.
Kagetenshi
So I've read this part of the discussion a few times, and I still can't figure it out: what exactly are you disagreeing about?

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
what exactly are you disagreeing about?

QUOTE (Link @ Mar 25 2007, 05:50 AM)
Who knows the focus fighting rules from SR3 off the top of their head?

I countered
He said my response was flawed because the astral combat section in SR3 only mentions attacking the astral form of a focus
Platinum
Ok to bring things back on track here....

1. how do we want mundanes to interact with spirits?

A: spirits are just unbeatable because they are immune to normal weapons and mundanes cannot use magical weaponry.

B: create some new weapons that are not magic but can affect spirits

C: change immunity to normal weapons

D: allow mundanes to bond foci but don't allow them extra dice

E: propose something new

F: Proposed by HOV (Mundanes can learn banishing)

2. are we even looking at grounding and focus addiction
(personally I think focus addiction is one of the stupidest rules ever written. a limit of 2* current rating isn't much of a limit.)

A: focus addiction is king

B: grounding puts a nice sense of fear into a mage with foci.

C: we need a combination of both

D: both rules should be burned with fire
Herald of Verjigorm
1) I initially favored altering immunity to normal weapons so that it provides (F) impact armor and complete immunity to bombs and bullets. Then I thought of allowing mundanes to learn banishing, and suggest that for consideration. Since mundanes don't have a magic attribute to risk losing, just make the counter in the form of a regular manifested attack of the spirit. This makes earth elementals more dangerous to banish than air elementals, but you need FAB spray or astral perception to spot air elementals clearly and attack them.

2) Haven't yet played a mage with enough spent on foci to hit addiction or the int limit. Grounding was balanced in SR2 because spell locks never cost more than 1 karma and could be easily deactivated for transport through ward and reactivated on the other side with no drain (IIRC), sustaining foci are already more costly and the spell must be recast every time you want to activate it.

2.15) On a slightly unrelated note, I fully support implementing the flowchart anchoring from SR2 as a form of advanced metamagic. I want a mage who can set a stunball to fire if the anchored "Detect Me" spell in his bedroom fails to respond but the anchored "Detect Life" does report finding something.
Link
Herald, my almost rhetorical question was, in SR3 astral combat how do you 'fight' a focus. I didn't know it off hand.
QUOTE
Breaking the enchantment just requires astrally attacking the focus, it resists at its force and breaks at deadly.
Damage levels are relevant when a mana spell is cast at the focus. Attacking the focus astrally, however, is a contest involving force, charisma, magic ratings and karma pool.
This was the point of my original post - that the SR1/2 rules were more consistent in their approach.
For everyones edification here is the complete Astral Objects section from p176 SR3
[ Spoiler ]

Platinum, as I said in my controversial smile.gif post, I vote for 2. B. and agree focus addiction is uninteresting.
I'll need to read up on spirit combat and anchoring.
nezumi
Immunity to normal weapons and the hardened armor rules need to be revamped. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you hit a tank with enough (yes, millions) of .22 bullets, eventually it'll be damaged. Perhaps adding "automatic successes" or somesuch would serve as a reasonable counter. You can hurt it with normal weapons, it just takes a very lucky, very skilled shot or very powerful shot.

I thought grounding was a lot of fun and made being a mage in general a more dangerous proposition. I like the idea of everyone giving the mage lots of space in case he blows up.
Platinum
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
1) I initially favored altering immunity to normal weapons so that it provides (F) impact armor and complete immunity to bombs and bullets. Then I thought of allowing mundanes to learn banishing, and suggest that for consideration. Since mundanes don't have a magic attribute to risk losing, just make the counter in the form of a regular manifested attack of the spirit. This makes earth elementals more dangerous to banish than air elementals, but you need FAB spray or astral perception to spot air elementals clearly and attack them.

2) Haven't yet played a mage with enough spent on foci to hit addiction or the int limit. Grounding was balanced in SR2 because spell locks never cost more than 1 karma and could be easily deactivated for transport through ward and reactivated on the other side with no drain (IIRC), sustaining foci are already more costly and the spell must be recast every time you want to activate it.

2.15) On a slightly unrelated note, I fully support implementing the flowchart anchoring from SR2 as a form of advanced metamagic. I want a mage who can set a stunball to fire if the anchored "Detect Me" spell in his bedroom fails to respond but the anchored "Detect Life" does report finding something.

I like your idea, that immunity to normal weapons just adding armour. That makes sense that mundanes would have a harder time against magical creatures, and the more powerful the hard time they would have.

I put the ability to learn banishing in as an option, and I am not really keen on it, is if you let players so that, they will want to also conjure, so that creates that mess. (yes they can conjure if they learn a spirits true name, but that is a differnt animal)

I like anchoring as an advanced meta magic.

QUOTE (nezumi)
I thought grounding was a lot of fun and made being a mage in general a more dangerous proposition. I like the idea of everyone giving the mage lots of space in case he blows up.


HA! good thing I was not drinking something when I read that, I would have shot it right out my nose. But yes, I liked that healthy sense of paranoia. It also made people weigh the risk of getting big boosts you get from foci.
Herald of Verjigorm
I haven't considered all the possible ramifications of letting mundanes learn banishing, but they can already learn talismongering so there is a precident to letting mundanes learn part of a magical skill. Even if you let them learn the entirity of conjuring theory, it will only apply when they know a true name or hold a ghost anchor.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (nezumi)
-Reducing how insanely easy it is for spirits (especially watchers) to find anyone almost any circumstances, or at least how there's largely no defense against this for mundanes (I cannot imagine that after forty years of magical surveillance threats the corporations haven't found a more convenient, cost effective method than huge wards).

...[emphasis mine]. I would be all in favour of this.
Eyeless Blond
Maybe we can expand that rule for detecting spirits (p. 173) to make it easier for mundanes to detect astral beings. Something like:

"The presence of a powerful astral being is something that can be felt by even mundane creatures. Whenever an astral being passes within a radius of the creature's Essence in meters, the creature is entitled to a Perception test, TN of 12 minus the astral being's Force or Magic Attribute, as appropriate. With one success the creature feels a sensation like a chill or tingling from the passage of the astral form. Additional successes give insight into the general location of the presence and its power (Force or Magic attribute), though they have no way of ever positively identifying it. Some creatures are trained to recognize these feelings as the presence of an astral being; others may simple dismiss the feeling as paranoia.

"Astral forms with Masking can attempt to hide their presence..." That's about all I've got. Anyone think this is a good idea and want to help me fill out how Masking helps?

Note no additional help for Awakened. They can swap into Perception anyway; they don't need the help.

Possibly this rule could be extended to detecting active spells? This allows us to also ditch the currently inane rules stating how spellcasting is subtle and difficult to detect, then go on to explain that when they said "subtle", they really meant "very slightly less obvious than full-auto gunfire under your nose." I'm really unsure about this one, however.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
This allows us to also ditch the currently inane rules stating how spellcasting is subtle and difficult to detect, then go on to explain that when they said "subtle", they really meant "very slightly less obvious than full-auto gunfire under your nose." I'm really unsure about this one, however.

What are you talking about?
Kagetenshi
TN 4+Magic-Force to spot spellcasting. Not very difficult, really.

~J
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012