I'm still not so sure myself, not so much for flavor reasons, but for playability reasons. It's bad enough that we've got the decker off to one side playing his own game, a game different enough that a great many GMs insist on the decker being an NPC so they don't have to worry about sculpted hosts and grid metaphors, but now we want to do a similar thing for the mage on astral overwatch? Seems to me that's going in the wrong direction.
Besides, all that stuff about Kabbalah, Native American Shamanism, dream quests, etc. really applies more to the entirely subjective reality of metaplanar quests. Metaplanar quests are typified by highly personal, highly subjective planes, and are already fairly dangerous (though maybe they should be more so?), which meshes well with the powerful and personal vision quests typified in Shamanism and such traditions. "Regular" Astral travel more resembles an out-of-body experience than a vision quest; you're spending your time as a bodyless ghost, floating over the physical world on a different, yet corresponding plane.
I think making the astral plane too different and alien is the wrong way to go, but it may be hard to actually prove one way or the other unless we ran competing games, one with the "alien ecosystem" idea for astral travel and one with the "foggy one-way mirror" idea that I'm recommending above.
Full Version: Astral Space, Essence, and the Awakened
I'd love to make the Astral Plane like the Alien World from Darkseed, but that might be going a little too far.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| The more I think about it the more I like the idea of getting rid of the astral plane altogether, at least the way it's presented now. Now that grounding is out of the picture, astral perception/projection lets you do basically three things: 1) Spy on people essentially with impunity. (Projection) 2) Instantly identify anyone, without regard for disguise, cover, concealment, camouflage, lighting, or even magical attempts to hide oneself (both projection and perception and the number of mods that don't apply to Assensing tests.) 3) Call down the thunder of your spirit brigade on enemies while remaining invincible yourself. (Projection w/ elementals or Great Form nature spirits.) ...that's about it really, and frankly I don't really like any of those options in SR3. Those together are a big part of why nezumi and others bring up the very valid points of magic only being able to be countered by more magic. If I had my way I'd excise the Astral world as we know it entirely. It would become entirely the world of the spirits, a place where man cannot tread. I'd even change the name: hermetics would call it the Aether, or the Ethreal Plane, and shamans the Spirit World. The only way to view it would be that one Astral Window spell, whatever it's called, or wandering into one of those weird rifts or shallows or such. No perception, no projection; only spirits exist on that plane, essentially. Metaplanar projection would still work for initiates though. I'm unsure if it shouldn't require a little... more than it does now. More preparations, more vulnerability of your meatbod while you're away, more potential complications arising during the quest, etc. I'd also like to see initiates have the ability to allow willing people to come with them on astral quests. |
I agree with your idea Blondie, but maybe with a twist. The astral world is, in my humble opinion, a big mess of contradicting rules and more often than not a waste of time for the non-mages (kinda like the Matrix but let's not go there...).
A big problem that I have is the flavour the astral realm brings to the game: It seems too present, not special enough. Everyone can do the same thing: mages and shamans are all the same (a lil different with conjuring but not much). Magic appears too often as a no-name brand sold at Wal-Mart.
That's why, back in the days, I changed it all for a campaign I was running. Suddenly, astral perception (with the power to assense people's auras) became a metamagical ability with its own special skill. Astral projection (also with its own special skill to use the ability) also became a metamagical power requiring astral perception to be bought before. My players knew they had to "choose" some kind of path. They could either improve spells, bond foci, etc. or go the "astral way" (or both but it would have been crazy expensive). The astral world became suddenly something only a few could understand and interact with, only the "high levels". They still had eventually some problems with the astral world but it made it more special. Picture having astrally projecting people during WWII. They would be special groups hiding behind door 13 on the mysterious 12 1/2 floor of a mysterious building. My players were totally fine with it, it added lots of flavour and they were able to concentrate on the physical world, physically interacting with people and the environment. I wanted for a moment to restrict astral perception and projection to "astral adepts", new magical oddities who couldn't cast spells but I flushed the idea down the toilet at that moment (but I'm considering it these days...).
I didn't stop there. Conjuring also become a metamagical ability (what!). Yes, you all heard me. Mages and shamans had to go on quests to the metaplanes and make pacts with an astral entities. Suddenly, spirits all had names, vibrant personalities, and all took time to conjure. They had to bargain with them, offer them things, were almost a part of team. Plus, it would be required that they spend 1 point of karma (from the pool, not good karma) every time they would conjure one (representing totem favours and cosmic energy they could handle at the moment). Let me say that suddenly, no more spirits guarding every block, every store, every hotel in town. They didn't expect spirits to be everywhere and when they would encounter one, it was on a really special occasion. More like a "big boss" or the big boss' henchman. No more random encounters, unless I wanted them to be. I used more free spirits roaming the city they could bargain with. They welcomed that change with open arms.
What was left for the mages? They did what they're supposed to do: cast spells. And guess what, they were still extremely powerful. During character creation, mages were also more well-rounded because they didn't have to take certain skills. I was nice though: to increase a spell they only had to pay the difference between the new spell and the old, not to "re-learn" it. They weren't required to get a spell formula to get a new spell, they could "appear" suddenly, sometimes when I decided. The interaction with other mages became more important (like trying to find an experienced teacher to help you control a new spell). Maybe I see mages too much like superheroes trying to control immense powers but that's kinda how I always imagined them. Like when you're 12 and you realize you can suddenly throw fireballs at those ork bullies terrorizing you after school...
Thus said, the group mostly always stayed together and everyone of them had roughly an equal play time. The decker was an NPC so it also made it a lot easier. Paranormal animals became a must for corps, as well as normal animals with some genetic or cybernetic modifications. Or even normal weak animals. Bypassing a family of geese guarding a facility can be as troublesome as bypassing 3 watcher spirits, 2 elementals and one mage. And way more fun.
I always thought Shadowrun was about corps and runners, with magic and the 'trix in the background. In most games I played, one simple watcher spirit would almost always slow down the flow of the game and only one person would do something about it, the group's mage. I support a radical change where magic becomes more rare, with no hordes of spirits guarding buildings, where the astral world is a mysterious place used by a certain elite group of experienced magic users. I also support more "magical phenomenon" like astral rifts, astral vision quests, unique magical anomalies, etc. to keep the interest of experienced players who have seen their share of spirits guarding buildings...
Bring back hellhounds, kill watcher spirits...
Peace!
Crossfire
While I like the idea, I worry it may be too much of a paradigm shift for what we're doing. It would substantially change the flavor and balance, and would require pretty hefty testing as well.
Anyone have any new thoughts on the Astral thing? I still believe that the alien ecosystem is the wrong way to go with balancing the astral. I think it'll solve one problem and create a worse one. Having the mage's astrally projecting body get pinned down by a swarm of astral bees or whatever is in many ways the same as the decker having to deal with a sculpted system while the rest of the team is on a run; he's off in his own little world, dealing with his own little problems, while everyone else including the GM is trying not to get distracted from the actual run. My big fear is that the mage's astral work will go the way of the decker's Matrix work: something that slows down the games where it is present and completely outlawed in many others.
On another note, I had an idea to help re-include Grounding. I don't know how Grounding worked in SR2, but how about this: in SR3R spells can be Grounded through a link between the physical and astral realm, but only in the opposite direction of the link itself. (Why? Just call it a weird rule of magic) For example:
On another note, I had an idea to help re-include Grounding. I don't know how Grounding worked in SR2, but how about this: in SR3R spells can be Grounded through a link between the physical and astral realm, but only in the opposite direction of the link itself. (Why? Just call it a weird rule of magic) For example:
- In the case of an active focus, the physical focus in creating an astral form, so the link goes from the focus to the astral plane. Thus a mage can Ground a spell from the astral form of the focus into the physical focus, but not the other way around (from the physical focus into the astral realm).
- In the case of a Materializing spirit, the spirit is making a semi-physical body, creating a link going from the astral plane to the physical. Since the link goes from the astral to the physical you can't use it to Ground a spell into the physical world, but if a physical mage wanted to he could Ground a mana area-effect spell through the spirit's physical body and smack down the astral area around him, all without having to Perceive and expose himself to direct danger from the astral.
- One fun idea here is that this rule allows a particularly creative perceiving mage to Ground a Fireball through a projecting mage's astral body and blow up the house his physical body is in.
| QUOTE |
| VII) I would totally love to add Grounding back in, except someone pointed out to me the old "whip up a Force 1 nature spirit or elemental, guide to a place on the astral, order it to Materalize, then hit with Force 10 Somethingball grounded through it" trick. As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much kills grounding dead, which saddens me greatly. If someone has an amazing idea bring it up, by all means. |
To prevent this scenario you could limit the force of a spell/power when ground through a materialised spirit or active focus to the rating of the spirit or focus. When grounding through an astral perceiver or dual natured target limit the force of the spell/power by the magic rating or essence of the astral perceiver or dual natured.
Actually, the materialised spirit is dual natured but you get the idea.
As for astral perception and sound across the a/p barrier et al. - would a simple explanation be that anything generated artificially is imperceptible. The general astral pallor would make navigation difficult too. We have also played up the lack of perception and precision during astral high speed - all measures which limit movement and astral recce.
The ideas on dark secrets/puppy eating? along with astral psychosis (and the dichomoty with cyberpsychosis) are promising. Also the idea of low essence being anathema to magic. These would expand traditional SR themes* unlike throwing out the astral plane as we know it - if I wasn't conservative I might be playing SR4.
*Perhaps more from novels and shadowtalk then existing rules.
I like both of those grounding rules! Blond's version is a bit more complex, Link's version is a little less interesting (since you can only cast say a 1D fireball through a rating 1 sustaining focus, although that's still a threat, no question). Presumably, a mage counts as force 12 
On that note, anyone care to fill me in on how grounding worked? All I know is it had something to do with using a dual-being or object to cast spells from one plane to the other.
The mechanics varied slightly through the editions but the general idea is that any astral mage or spirit could cast spells/powers on the astral plane that when aimed at a dual natured target would ground into the physical plane. The chief benefit was that area spells would affect physical targets in the area of effect.
Like Link said. It basically made you a lot more cautious to stand around the mage, since he was liable to explode at any moment. In general, foci and astrally perceiving became a lot more dangerous, since they served as channels for grounding (it would really decrease how reliable that sustaining foci is!) The problem was mages would summon a force 1 spirit, send it into a room full of bad guys, tell it to materialize, then cast fireball on the spirit, killing it but hurting everyone else in the room.
That's it? Cast physical spell from astral -> spell affects physical plane? Huh, and here I thought there would be some extra rules like having to synchronize an aura, or having to defeat the focus/spirit in astral combat first or something.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| That's it? |
Yes, that's it. Its removal was a good thing, unlike the beautifully complex (and more importantly, useful) 2nd edition anchoring rules.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| That's it? Cast physical spell from astral -> spell affects physical plane? Huh, and here I thought there would be some extra rules like having to synchronize an aura, or having to defeat the focus/spirit in astral combat first or something. |
No, there was more to it as you gathered. I didn't get into mechanics as they varied between editions. Here are the steps involved in casting at a focus.
Range attack - cast physical spell or spirit power at active focus
Spell must fight through barrier (if present)
Astral combat betwixt spell and focus
Spell defence dice add to body for damage resistance
If spell wins; it ‘grounds’ into target
Physical area spell affects physical targets
So the idea of essentially removing astral projection is looking more attractive. I'll try to outline the reasons why it might be a good thing in the next few days, but in the meantime, does anyone have any comments for or against the idea?
~J
~J
So, what's the tally for proposals on this thread? So far I have the following:
A) Astral Projection, and astral bodies
-1) When a mage projects, he loses contact with his body completely.
--a) Mages don't feel injuries taken by their meatbod until they return.
--b) Mages have to track to find their bodies if they don't remember where their body is, or if it's been moved while they were out.
--c) No "snap-back" effect if a mage loses consciousness while projecting.
-2)When a mage projects, there is still a lingering connection to his body, one felt mainly unconsciously.
--a) Lingering connection means that mages are affected immediately by injuries (wound penalties, etc), but aren't immediately aware of how they're injured.
--b) "Snap-back" effect; when a mage is knocked out, his spirit immediately "shortcuts" back to his body, even through wards, much like a spirit can use a metaplanar shortcut to bypass wards.
-3) Astral plane changes
--a) Add a new set of astral-only critters, to make the astral plane more like an alien ecosystem.
--b) Nonliving matter cannot be seen from the astral unless the mage is manifesting.
--c) Changes to Search and Patrol functions available to spirits--see D:Spirit Changes.
--d) "I'd love to make the Astral Plane like the Alien World from Darkseed" --don't know what this means.
--e) Metaplanar travel is harder/requires more preparation.
--f) Interaction between astral and physical--see E:Grounding Revisited.
--g) Impede ability to exactly gauge distances and positions for non-living things
--h) No sound penetration from astral<->physical unless manifest.
--i) Mundanes can sense unmanifested spirits more easily, and at range. (See D-6)
B) Essence is an attribute of the astral form, and astral form's link with body, not of the body itself.
-1) Cyberpsychosis; low-Essence characters' social/healing problems caused by low connection between astral body/physical body, not just presence of chrome as described in books.
--a) Body kept at low Essence while projecting; too much projection may cause same effects as cyberpsychosis?
-2) Low connection to body == difficult to affect w/ wpells.
--a) Add TN of Essence Loss (or Essence Loss / 2) to all spellcasting TNs/spirit power TNs, other than indirect combat spells etc.
C) Spell/Sorcery Changes
-1) Direct/Indirect Detection Spells
--a) Indirect Detection spells not resisted, or resisted only by person using the sense rather than targets, much like indirect illusion spells.
--b) Detect X/Combat Sense *are* resisted, while things like Nightvision/Clairvoyance are not.
--c) No such thing as "Improved Area" for Spell Creation; if you want to improve your area, increase Force (see 2)
--d) No change to totem mods/etc; Detection still treated like one "school"
-2) Force of spells == area, not Magic Attribute
-3) Limit spellcasting successes to Force
--a) Net successes only?
--b) Total successes?
-4) Spell Defense comes from Spell Pool only?
--a) No Spell Defense specialization for Sorcery
-5) Magic more subtle? Less subtle?
-6) Spell ranges? Casting spells further away == penalties to cast.
--a) Grimoire had penalties for extreme ranges due to visibility.
150 m or less: no penalty
151-300m: +2
301-600m: +4
601-1250m: +6
1251-2500m: +8
2501-5000m: +10
5001m: no valid target
-7) Remove spells that create matter to avoid having to debate laws of conservation of mass and energy (this only impacts two or three spells and spirit powers)
-8 ) Manipulation as a category is too broad
--a Move elemental manipulation to Combat spells
--b Break Manipulation into two new categories, Physical Manipulation (telekinetic and transformational) and Control Manipulation (as it stands)
-9) What is the result of casting THROUGH a background count?
--a) Use the highest of the two endpoints (not the middle)
--b) For elemental manipulations, use only the caster's BG, since the spell travels in the physical
--c) Use the highest rating between the two endpoints inclusively
-10) Drop invisibility and improved invisibility, replace with concealment or SEP field (adds successes to TN to spot)
D) Spirit changes
-1) Watchers suck/use different rules than normal spirits
--a) Watchers use same Search rules as other spirits (see 2), but have additional penalties for finding non-astral targets.
--b) Allow cheap "Bind as guard" option, as elementals have, to replace expensive and useless long-term summon option. Watchers can only guard astral space.
--c) Watchers must make a test to stay interested in mundane affair, even under orders.
-2) Search is odd
--a) Wider area == higher TN
--b) Communicating what to search for is nontrivial
--c) Dependent on communication between spirit and summoner (summoner's Int? Spirit's Int? Some sort of description skill?).
--d) Dependent on summoner's knowledge of the target.
--e) Should be the same rules for Watchers and other spirits? Similar but with special restrictions for the Watchers? Maybe non-Watcher spirits can search for physical objects more easily than Watchers?
--f) Adapt SR4's Search rules?
-3) Astral Patrols
--a) Base area changed to 10x sizes given in MitS.
-4) Immunity to Normal Weapons needs changing
--a) Changes should be made to hardened armor as well.
--b) Provides (F) impact armor and complete immunity to bombs and bullets.
-5) Contest of Wills needs changing
--a) Eliminate reach bonuses (Fishing Pole of Elemental-squishing +2!), and replace with something more sensible.
--b) What would you say about mundanes and Manifesting mages being able to have a Contest of Wills?
-6) Make it easier for mundanes to detect astral beings
--a) TN of 12 (9 maybe?) minus the astral being's Force or Magic Attribute to detect within (Essence) meters.
--b) TN of 12 - the perceiving character's Essence - the spirit's Force/Magic
--c) How to make Geasea+Conjuring work?
-7) Ally spirits
--a) Should not cost more (or at least much more) to upgrade than create.
--b) Stats should not be independent of Force, even after creation.
E) Grounding Revisited
-1) Max Force of spell == max Force of astral-physical link.
-2) Spells only travel in opposite direction to link (eg. Perceiving mage can only ground astral-cast spell to physical plane; materializing spirit can only ground physical-cast spell to the astral plane).
-3) Simplify Grounding rules to be more like Masking through a ward (synch aura, etc)
-4) Grounding as Metamagic technique?
F) Revamping geasea
-1) Gesture/Talisman/Incantation Geasea require a Free Action during your turn devoted to each geas before using any magical skill. This means someone with more than one of the three will be forced to waste a pass chanting or waving their hands around before casting a spell, for instance.
-2) Maybe we can cross-pollinate the aspected abilities of Aspected Mages, and the limitations of the different Geasea? I imagine a guy taking a Sorcery-only Geas after losing a lot of Essence to a single cybersurgery, for instance, or an Aspected Mage who can only use his magic at night, rather than the limited range of canon limitations for aspected mages.
-3) Geasea apply to specific spells/spirits
--a) No more Magic Loss from Deadly wounds
--b) Would work like fetish/exclusive limitations on spells.
-4) Scrap Geasea altogether
G) Ritual Tracking should be doable by one person.
H) Magic EATING PUPPIES
-1) Initiation eating puppies: astralpsychosis, or people going crazy from too much magic.
-2) Spells eating puppies: astral spell pollution causing background count?
-3) Spirits eating puppies: summoning spirits requires stealing life force from surrounding life. Temporary Essence Drain-like effect on everyone nearby (especially the mage); resistance is harder/permenant as Force increases?
-4) Wards/enchanting eating puppies: ward creation/item creation requires bloodletting?
-5) Condition Geas: Must club baby seal before casting spell.
I) Foci
-1) Make Addiction stick to people more? Remove it entirely?
-2) Remove combat with foci/astral objects
J) Ward-making
-1) Mundanes can learn, like Talismongering?
-2) Vehicle warding, the definitive answer.
-3) Use SR4's idea, of a ward being a barrier projecting from an object.
--a) If warded object moves, but walls move with it (ie. warded vehicle; object in vehicle), ward stays intact.
--b) If warded object moves relative to barrier walls then ward is destroyed.
-4) Wards contacting other wards; do they fight?
-5) Wards inside other wards. Can it be done?
J) Initiation
-1) Reduce cost of initiation, but it does not increase the magic rating (to combat cybered mages)
--a) Magic Rating boosted like other attributes; "racial" max == Essence+Initiation Grade.
--b) Essence Loss acts as a penalty, so raising Magic costs more for less benefit with cyber.
-2) To join an initiation group, candidate rolls Magic or highest magic skill vs. TN 4 + (size of group/10) + 1 per pt of magic lost - 1 per initiate grade. Group may spend karma pool on behalf of candidate.
--a) Alternatively - divide size of group by 5
--b) Alternatively - increases based on the highest grade within the group
--c) Alternatively - allow for EITHER above and first idea based on style of group(cult of personality vs. communal paradise)
--d) Alternative 6 which lost me (TN based on Group Size Factor, based on highest Initiate Grade/2 + grades of highest graded individuals/2)
--e) Alternatively, Mag. Theory or Etiquette(Magic) roll vs TN of 4 + members of group/5, +2 for not being initiated
-3) You cannot get more initiate grades than your original magic rating (natural max of 12, 10 with 1 point of cyber, etc.)
-4) Add metamagic to allow a caster to sustain a spell with spell pool
*Pant, pant, pant* Whew, that was a lot more than I expected!
A) Astral Projection, and astral bodies
-1) When a mage projects, he loses contact with his body completely.
--a) Mages don't feel injuries taken by their meatbod until they return.
--b) Mages have to track to find their bodies if they don't remember where their body is, or if it's been moved while they were out.
--c) No "snap-back" effect if a mage loses consciousness while projecting.
-2)When a mage projects, there is still a lingering connection to his body, one felt mainly unconsciously.
--a) Lingering connection means that mages are affected immediately by injuries (wound penalties, etc), but aren't immediately aware of how they're injured.
--b) "Snap-back" effect; when a mage is knocked out, his spirit immediately "shortcuts" back to his body, even through wards, much like a spirit can use a metaplanar shortcut to bypass wards.
-3) Astral plane changes
--a) Add a new set of astral-only critters, to make the astral plane more like an alien ecosystem.
--b) Nonliving matter cannot be seen from the astral unless the mage is manifesting.
--c) Changes to Search and Patrol functions available to spirits--see D:Spirit Changes.
--d) "I'd love to make the Astral Plane like the Alien World from Darkseed" --don't know what this means.
--e) Metaplanar travel is harder/requires more preparation.
--f) Interaction between astral and physical--see E:Grounding Revisited.
--g) Impede ability to exactly gauge distances and positions for non-living things
--h) No sound penetration from astral<->physical unless manifest.
--i) Mundanes can sense unmanifested spirits more easily, and at range. (See D-6)
B) Essence is an attribute of the astral form, and astral form's link with body, not of the body itself.
-1) Cyberpsychosis; low-Essence characters' social/healing problems caused by low connection between astral body/physical body, not just presence of chrome as described in books.
--a) Body kept at low Essence while projecting; too much projection may cause same effects as cyberpsychosis?
-2) Low connection to body == difficult to affect w/ wpells.
--a) Add TN of Essence Loss (or Essence Loss / 2) to all spellcasting TNs/spirit power TNs, other than indirect combat spells etc.
C) Spell/Sorcery Changes
-1) Direct/Indirect Detection Spells
--a) Indirect Detection spells not resisted, or resisted only by person using the sense rather than targets, much like indirect illusion spells.
--b) Detect X/Combat Sense *are* resisted, while things like Nightvision/Clairvoyance are not.
--c) No such thing as "Improved Area" for Spell Creation; if you want to improve your area, increase Force (see 2)
--d) No change to totem mods/etc; Detection still treated like one "school"
-2) Force of spells == area, not Magic Attribute
-3) Limit spellcasting successes to Force
--a) Net successes only?
--b) Total successes?
-4) Spell Defense comes from Spell Pool only?
--a) No Spell Defense specialization for Sorcery
-5) Magic more subtle? Less subtle?
-6) Spell ranges? Casting spells further away == penalties to cast.
--a) Grimoire had penalties for extreme ranges due to visibility.
150 m or less: no penalty
151-300m: +2
301-600m: +4
601-1250m: +6
1251-2500m: +8
2501-5000m: +10
5001m: no valid target
-7) Remove spells that create matter to avoid having to debate laws of conservation of mass and energy (this only impacts two or three spells and spirit powers)
-8 ) Manipulation as a category is too broad
--a Move elemental manipulation to Combat spells
--b Break Manipulation into two new categories, Physical Manipulation (telekinetic and transformational) and Control Manipulation (as it stands)
-9) What is the result of casting THROUGH a background count?
--a) Use the highest of the two endpoints (not the middle)
--b) For elemental manipulations, use only the caster's BG, since the spell travels in the physical
--c) Use the highest rating between the two endpoints inclusively
-10) Drop invisibility and improved invisibility, replace with concealment or SEP field (adds successes to TN to spot)
D) Spirit changes
-1) Watchers suck/use different rules than normal spirits
--a) Watchers use same Search rules as other spirits (see 2), but have additional penalties for finding non-astral targets.
--b) Allow cheap "Bind as guard" option, as elementals have, to replace expensive and useless long-term summon option. Watchers can only guard astral space.
--c) Watchers must make a test to stay interested in mundane affair, even under orders.
-2) Search is odd
--a) Wider area == higher TN
--b) Communicating what to search for is nontrivial
--c) Dependent on communication between spirit and summoner (summoner's Int? Spirit's Int? Some sort of description skill?).
--d) Dependent on summoner's knowledge of the target.
--e) Should be the same rules for Watchers and other spirits? Similar but with special restrictions for the Watchers? Maybe non-Watcher spirits can search for physical objects more easily than Watchers?
--f) Adapt SR4's Search rules?
-3) Astral Patrols
--a) Base area changed to 10x sizes given in MitS.
-4) Immunity to Normal Weapons needs changing
--a) Changes should be made to hardened armor as well.
--b) Provides (F) impact armor and complete immunity to bombs and bullets.
-5) Contest of Wills needs changing
--a) Eliminate reach bonuses (Fishing Pole of Elemental-squishing +2!), and replace with something more sensible.
--b) What would you say about mundanes and Manifesting mages being able to have a Contest of Wills?
-6) Make it easier for mundanes to detect astral beings
--a) TN of 12 (9 maybe?) minus the astral being's Force or Magic Attribute to detect within (Essence) meters.
--b) TN of 12 - the perceiving character's Essence - the spirit's Force/Magic
--c) How to make Geasea+Conjuring work?
-7) Ally spirits
--a) Should not cost more (or at least much more) to upgrade than create.
--b) Stats should not be independent of Force, even after creation.
E) Grounding Revisited
-1) Max Force of spell == max Force of astral-physical link.
-2) Spells only travel in opposite direction to link (eg. Perceiving mage can only ground astral-cast spell to physical plane; materializing spirit can only ground physical-cast spell to the astral plane).
-3) Simplify Grounding rules to be more like Masking through a ward (synch aura, etc)
-4) Grounding as Metamagic technique?
F) Revamping geasea
-1) Gesture/Talisman/Incantation Geasea require a Free Action during your turn devoted to each geas before using any magical skill. This means someone with more than one of the three will be forced to waste a pass chanting or waving their hands around before casting a spell, for instance.
-2) Maybe we can cross-pollinate the aspected abilities of Aspected Mages, and the limitations of the different Geasea? I imagine a guy taking a Sorcery-only Geas after losing a lot of Essence to a single cybersurgery, for instance, or an Aspected Mage who can only use his magic at night, rather than the limited range of canon limitations for aspected mages.
-3) Geasea apply to specific spells/spirits
--a) No more Magic Loss from Deadly wounds
--b) Would work like fetish/exclusive limitations on spells.
-4) Scrap Geasea altogether
G) Ritual Tracking should be doable by one person.
H) Magic EATING PUPPIES
-1) Initiation eating puppies: astralpsychosis, or people going crazy from too much magic.
-2) Spells eating puppies: astral spell pollution causing background count?
-3) Spirits eating puppies: summoning spirits requires stealing life force from surrounding life. Temporary Essence Drain-like effect on everyone nearby (especially the mage); resistance is harder/permenant as Force increases?
-4) Wards/enchanting eating puppies: ward creation/item creation requires bloodletting?
-5) Condition Geas: Must club baby seal before casting spell.
I) Foci
-1) Make Addiction stick to people more? Remove it entirely?
-2) Remove combat with foci/astral objects
J) Ward-making
-1) Mundanes can learn, like Talismongering?
-2) Vehicle warding, the definitive answer.
-3) Use SR4's idea, of a ward being a barrier projecting from an object.
--a) If warded object moves, but walls move with it (ie. warded vehicle; object in vehicle), ward stays intact.
--b) If warded object moves relative to barrier walls then ward is destroyed.
-4) Wards contacting other wards; do they fight?
-5) Wards inside other wards. Can it be done?
J) Initiation
-1) Reduce cost of initiation, but it does not increase the magic rating (to combat cybered mages)
--a) Magic Rating boosted like other attributes; "racial" max == Essence+Initiation Grade.
--b) Essence Loss acts as a penalty, so raising Magic costs more for less benefit with cyber.
-2) To join an initiation group, candidate rolls Magic or highest magic skill vs. TN 4 + (size of group/10) + 1 per pt of magic lost - 1 per initiate grade. Group may spend karma pool on behalf of candidate.
--a) Alternatively - divide size of group by 5
--b) Alternatively - increases based on the highest grade within the group
--c) Alternatively - allow for EITHER above and first idea based on style of group(cult of personality vs. communal paradise)
--d) Alternative 6 which lost me (TN based on Group Size Factor, based on highest Initiate Grade/2 + grades of highest graded individuals/2)
--e) Alternatively, Mag. Theory or Etiquette(Magic) roll vs TN of 4 + members of group/5, +2 for not being initiated
-3) You cannot get more initiate grades than your original magic rating (natural max of 12, 10 with 1 point of cyber, etc.)
-4) Add metamagic to allow a caster to sustain a spell with spell pool
*Pant, pant, pant* Whew, that was a lot more than I expected!
Boy, I'm glad I'm not maintaining THAT list ;P
Astral projection is pretty cool, and very popular. I do enjoy that astral projection is another one of those 'games' or mechanics people can and generally enjoy exploring. Plus, after four editions, it really is a stable of the game. Take it away and there's a serious risk people will say 'SR3R? That's not Shadowrun! There's no astral projection!' I don't know if we'd want to alienate such a large portion of our audience over what, ultimately, shouldn't be that tough an issue to fix. There are plenty of other suggestions made that would help limit projection without banning it outright.
Astral projection is pretty cool, and very popular. I do enjoy that astral projection is another one of those 'games' or mechanics people can and generally enjoy exploring. Plus, after four editions, it really is a stable of the game. Take it away and there's a serious risk people will say 'SR3R? That's not Shadowrun! There's no astral projection!' I don't know if we'd want to alienate such a large portion of our audience over what, ultimately, shouldn't be that tough an issue to fix. There are plenty of other suggestions made that would help limit projection without banning it outright.
I filed that under A-3. The fix(es) I particularly like are A3-b, c, e, f, g, h, and i. I don't particularly like -a, because it makes astral too much of a separatist's game. When the GM and the mage are dealing with astral-only critters that noone else can see or interact with, what is everyone else doing? Sitting on their hands, getting bored, wondering why they bothered with the projecting mage in the first place, the same way they wonder why they bothered with the decker but even less so because a projecting mage can do even less than the Overwatch decker.
But enough about my likes and dislikes; anyone else have any comments? See anything I missed?
But enough about my likes and dislikes; anyone else have any comments? See anything I missed?
Lessee...
A-1 b and c OR 2 a and b. We just need to settle on a paradigm
3 I still like a, but I can understand why people don't want to use it. c, d, e, f, g, h, i (whew)
B I like everything suggested.
C I like all of 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and 10. I have no opinion on 4, 5, and I like 9c.
D I like all of 1 and 2. 3... I don't know that astral patrols need to be made STONGER. If anything, I'd go the other way. 4 is an issue, I have no idea how well 4b would work. It needs testing, but I don't like the absolute immunity to bullets. 5 is good. 6b I agree with. 7 I have no opinion on.
E 1 I'm not sure on, since currently people like their force 1 sustaining focus for increas reflexes +3. If fix that problem, sure. 2 I think is the best available solution. 3 and 4 I'm not huge on.
F I don't have an educated opinion on.
G I agree with.
H Hahaha! All beautiful, all of them...
I No opinion
J 1 yes, I'm not big on warding vehicles, but I can be convinced otherwise. 5 yes.
J) Initiation should be K. I'll comment on it later.
A-1 b and c OR 2 a and b. We just need to settle on a paradigm
3 I still like a, but I can understand why people don't want to use it. c, d, e, f, g, h, i (whew)
B I like everything suggested.
C I like all of 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and 10. I have no opinion on 4, 5, and I like 9c.
D I like all of 1 and 2. 3... I don't know that astral patrols need to be made STONGER. If anything, I'd go the other way. 4 is an issue, I have no idea how well 4b would work. It needs testing, but I don't like the absolute immunity to bullets. 5 is good. 6b I agree with. 7 I have no opinion on.
E 1 I'm not sure on, since currently people like their force 1 sustaining focus for increas reflexes +3. If fix that problem, sure. 2 I think is the best available solution. 3 and 4 I'm not huge on.
F I don't have an educated opinion on.
G I agree with.
H Hahaha! All beautiful, all of them...
I No opinion
J 1 yes, I'm not big on warding vehicles, but I can be convinced otherwise. 5 yes.
J) Initiation should be K. I'll comment on it later.
Hey, that reminds me; we need to add the following:
C-11) Increase Reflexes--replace Increase Reaction, and Reflexes I, II, III
--a) Changed to +1d6INI per successes
--b) Changed to +1 Reaction/two successes, plus +1d6INI per three successes.
--c) Change TN:Reaction, Drain:+1(D)
--d) combine with Force == max successes rule. See C-3.
C-11) Increase Reflexes--replace Increase Reaction, and Reflexes I, II, III
--a) Changed to +1d6INI per successes
--b) Changed to +1 Reaction/two successes, plus +1d6INI per three successes.
--c) Change TN:Reaction, Drain:+1(D)
--d) combine with Force == max successes rule. See C-3.
Vision penalties for range work for me. Don't forget to add in cover and concealment for ranged spells as well. It should be harder to target someone in a crowd. You should only be able to target into a crowd with an area spell that you can see.
As far as monsters in astral goes I see it as such. The astral plane in some way also shadows that of the world, so animals and others would have an echo there. How long that that echo remains depends on a number of factors. However, these Astral echos still feel the need to act in the way that their counterparts do, and to survive they must eat. As such predators exist.
With intent the mage can manipulate the energy from the astral plane to create effects (spells), and astral creations (wards). Unfortunately, this ability is not completely controlled and as such, the subconsious may form creations of its own (monsters from the Id).
The nature of the astral form will continue to be hotly debated for as long as magic exists.
The mind creates the astral form using some of the body's energy which is also used in running cyberware. In creating a form to house the mind it draws energy from the astral. A conduit to the Astral is formed which can be can be detected by other Astral beings. Intent and effects can also be sent down this conduit. Spells and creations (of which the Astral Projection would be one) both drain the body's energy and can only be maintained for a determinable amount of time. The Mind has the ability to override the body's self preservation instinct, allowing it to travel far from the body, however, without those instincts it becomes harder to find its way back. Because the body is powering the Astral projection damage would be shared or felt between the two.
Or
The Astral Form resides within the body. The body ties it to this plane of existence, and gives the Astral form a safe harbor. As the body is replaced with cyberware part of which identifies the self is lost, the Astral form grows weaker, therefore essence resides in the astral form. Longer it is gone from the body the weaker its connection to this plane becomes, the silver cord becomes thinner then eventually breaks. Eventually, the Astral form must return to a metaplane. The astral bodies strength, measured in essence also helps to determine how long it can avoid the Astral predators before returning to its brier patch, it calls a body.
How does that sound?
As far as monsters in astral goes I see it as such. The astral plane in some way also shadows that of the world, so animals and others would have an echo there. How long that that echo remains depends on a number of factors. However, these Astral echos still feel the need to act in the way that their counterparts do, and to survive they must eat. As such predators exist.
With intent the mage can manipulate the energy from the astral plane to create effects (spells), and astral creations (wards). Unfortunately, this ability is not completely controlled and as such, the subconsious may form creations of its own (monsters from the Id).
The nature of the astral form will continue to be hotly debated for as long as magic exists.
The mind creates the astral form using some of the body's energy which is also used in running cyberware. In creating a form to house the mind it draws energy from the astral. A conduit to the Astral is formed which can be can be detected by other Astral beings. Intent and effects can also be sent down this conduit. Spells and creations (of which the Astral Projection would be one) both drain the body's energy and can only be maintained for a determinable amount of time. The Mind has the ability to override the body's self preservation instinct, allowing it to travel far from the body, however, without those instincts it becomes harder to find its way back. Because the body is powering the Astral projection damage would be shared or felt between the two.
Or
The Astral Form resides within the body. The body ties it to this plane of existence, and gives the Astral form a safe harbor. As the body is replaced with cyberware part of which identifies the self is lost, the Astral form grows weaker, therefore essence resides in the astral form. Longer it is gone from the body the weaker its connection to this plane becomes, the silver cord becomes thinner then eventually breaks. Eventually, the Astral form must return to a metaplane. The astral bodies strength, measured in essence also helps to determine how long it can avoid the Astral predators before returning to its brier patch, it calls a body.
How does that sound?
Part 2
Mundanes can create wards, but not so in such the way that the Awakened do.
They give energy and life to thier structures over time, by identifing themselves with such, the more of thier lives that is tied to the structure the stronger the ward.
As such a close net family would create a ward around thier home. A large sterile workplace even with many people would have an insignificant ward if one at all. A small Mom & Pop style buisness would have a noticeable ward, as much of the employees lifes would be tied into it.
Mundanes can create wards, but not so in such the way that the Awakened do.
They give energy and life to thier structures over time, by identifing themselves with such, the more of thier lives that is tied to the structure the stronger the ward.
As such a close net family would create a ward around thier home. A large sterile workplace even with many people would have an insignificant ward if one at all. A small Mom & Pop style buisness would have a noticeable ward, as much of the employees lifes would be tied into it.
So, to summarize:
For cover/concealment:
C-6) Spell ranges
--c) Cover+Concealment applies to spells
For the two ideas of Essence... we're bringing that up again? I thought we agreed to arbitrarily call Essence an attribute of the astral body? Oh well:
B) Essence is an attribute of...
-1) ...the astral form, and astral form's link with body, not of the body itself. Possible connection with A-1?
-2) ...the physical body, which uses this energy to create a "temporary body" for the mind/soul (the astral form). Possible connection with A-2?
And for ward-making:
J-6) Spontaneous appearance of wards around areas...
--a) ...w/ strong sense of community, togetherness. Eg. close-knit family homes, mom-and-pop stores, churches.
--b) ...w/ strong sense of suspicion, distrust of outsiders. Eg. cult meeting houses, racist homes, gang territories.
Updates made to list. For reference, the list looks like:
For cover/concealment:
C-6) Spell ranges
--c) Cover+Concealment applies to spells
For the two ideas of Essence... we're bringing that up again? I thought we agreed to arbitrarily call Essence an attribute of the astral body? Oh well:
B) Essence is an attribute of...
-1) ...the astral form, and astral form's link with body, not of the body itself. Possible connection with A-1?
-2) ...the physical body, which uses this energy to create a "temporary body" for the mind/soul (the astral form). Possible connection with A-2?
And for ward-making:
J-6) Spontaneous appearance of wards around areas...
--a) ...w/ strong sense of community, togetherness. Eg. close-knit family homes, mom-and-pop stores, churches.
--b) ...w/ strong sense of suspicion, distrust of outsiders. Eg. cult meeting houses, racist homes, gang territories.
Updates made to list. For reference, the list looks like:
[ Spoiler ]
Manipulation as a category is too broad
Note a few other ideas I snuck in there. Of particular interest to me are the astralpsychosis ideas:
H-1) Initiation eating puppies: astralpsychosis, or people going crazy from too much magic.
--a) Mania: (total initiate grades gained in past decade)/2 to all social TNs.
The idea being that too much magic tends to make people too "intense". They're infused with the essence of life to a degree that most people cannot fathom or understand, and this makes them... weird, to those that haven't had the same experience. Most of these are designed with fading penalties in mind, so that GDs and IEs don't have to have ten thousand mental disorders (though they certainly CAN).
--b) Low Pain Threshold: When injured, add (total initiate grades gained in past decade/2, round down) to condition monitor to determine would penalties.
Again, pretty straightforward. The rationale is: the stronger the connection between your body and astral self, the more you "feel" things, especially disharmonies and imbalances like wounds.
--c) Mental break: If gaining more than one initiate grade in (Initiate grade) years, roll Willpower vs. TN of Grade. TN=2*Grade if less than (Initiate grade) months. Failure means you gain a neurosis.
...maybe according to the table below? Include a note that GMs can feel free to assign whatever neurosis he feels like; the below is just a guide. Note that all neuroses are pretty crippling; do you think I'm going too far here?
H-1) Initiation eating puppies: astralpsychosis, or people going crazy from too much magic.
--a) Mania: (total initiate grades gained in past decade)/2 to all social TNs.
The idea being that too much magic tends to make people too "intense". They're infused with the essence of life to a degree that most people cannot fathom or understand, and this makes them... weird, to those that haven't had the same experience. Most of these are designed with fading penalties in mind, so that GDs and IEs don't have to have ten thousand mental disorders (though they certainly CAN).
--b) Low Pain Threshold: When injured, add (total initiate grades gained in past decade/2, round down) to condition monitor to determine would penalties.
Again, pretty straightforward. The rationale is: the stronger the connection between your body and astral self, the more you "feel" things, especially disharmonies and imbalances like wounds.
--c) Mental break: If gaining more than one initiate grade in (Initiate grade) years, roll Willpower vs. TN of Grade. TN=2*Grade if less than (Initiate grade) months. Failure means you gain a neurosis.
...maybe according to the table below? Include a note that GMs can feel free to assign whatever neurosis he feels like; the below is just a guide. Note that all neuroses are pretty crippling; do you think I'm going too far here?
| CODE |
| 2d6 roll Result 2-3 Absent Minded- Character gains the Oblivious flaw (stacks if he already had it). GM may force player to make Willpower tests to avoid being "lost in the details" like cyberzombies. 4 5 6-8 "Karma overload"- The most common Awakened problem. Sometimes called "The Shakes" by shamans, non-hermetics. Penalty to Quickness tests and Quickness-linked skills equal to half Initiate grade. 9 Paranoia- Character has problems trusting his closest friends. In stressful situations, must make a Willpower test (TN 6) to avoid turning on his allies. 10 11-12 Schizophrenia- Character has dangerous delusions, often extremely irrational behavior. Hears voices in his head that tell him to do things, and must make increasingly difficult Willpower checks to avoid them. |
I also need more ideas; any suggestions?
Tried to read and follow entire thread before responding but got a little hazey along the way and forgot what had been covered already.
That's the thing; almost none of it has. I think the only bits that even have anything like a consensus is some of the spell stuff (Force==max successes, area==Force, not Magic, etc). Everything else up there is still either up for debate, or hasn't been commented on by more than one or two people.
My advice is just take it a letter at a time. Read through it, see what you like/don't like, then post that one and move on to the next. We need some serious work on this one; unlike the Decking thread there's been nothing decided on here, just lots and lots of ideas.
My advice is just take it a letter at a time. Read through it, see what you like/don't like, then post that one and move on to the next. We need some serious work on this one; unlike the Decking thread there's been nothing decided on here, just lots and lots of ideas.
I love those astral psychosis ideas. I want me some crazies!That said, I sort of fall in the 'loony GM' category, so a more objective voice should probably weigh heavier.
Magic is mostly an unimportant stat. A magician can get away with a magic of 5 or even 4 if he is willing to overcast and a magic higher than 6 is completely unnecessary unless he is willing to invest a great deal of time and karma learning spells at force 7 or above (since it can't be done at chargen).
It might be wise to make the magic stat a bit more useful, other than just adding to spell pool.
Spells eating puppies is by far the most consistent with fluff. How about casting spells and summoning uses up mana in the area, making it unusable for any other purpose. Every time a spell is cast or a spirit is summoned it creates a Background count of Force/Magic within a radius of Magic meters from the caster (since a higher Magic rating allows him to draw mana from a wider area). This BC is reduced by 1 every (pick a useful number) combat turns but multiple acts of magic stack. A giant magic battle could potentially turn an area into a mana wap, if only for a few minutes.
It might be wise to make the magic stat a bit more useful, other than just adding to spell pool.
Spells eating puppies is by far the most consistent with fluff. How about casting spells and summoning uses up mana in the area, making it unusable for any other purpose. Every time a spell is cast or a spirit is summoned it creates a Background count of Force/Magic within a radius of Magic meters from the caster (since a higher Magic rating allows him to draw mana from a wider area). This BC is reduced by 1 every (pick a useful number) combat turns but multiple acts of magic stack. A giant magic battle could potentially turn an area into a mana wap, if only for a few minutes.
Because this basically became the SR3R Magic thread:
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| [added as C-12]: Gecko Crawl and Levitate have the exact same target numbers and drain codes. Now, Gecko Crawl doesn't increase your TN if you mass more than 100 kilos, but is that really a big enough compensation for losing both the ability to use it to manipulate objects and the ability to leave surfaces? [added ad L-1]: what are the effects of a mage with Focused Concentration ingesting Psyche? No additional bonus? Something else? |
All will be added to the list. (Edit): hyzmarca's suggestion added under H-2, with a little extra bit of my own added.
H-2) Spells/magic use eating puppies: astral spell pollution causing background count?
--a) Creates a Background count of Force/Magic within a Magic radius of Magic meters from the caster
--b) This BC is reduced by 1 every (pick a useful number) combat turns but multiple acts of magic stack. A giant magic battle could potentially turn an area into a mana wap, if only for a few minutes.
--c) Additional rule: mage uses lowest background count within (Magic) meters to cast spell.
--d) Makes Magic att. more important.
As for the astralpsychosis stuff, yeah, I do agree that maybe the "roll on the table for crazy" idea is probably going a bit too far for this revision. On the other hand, I really don't view initiating too rapidly as being much different for a mage than a sammie who elects to become a cyberzombie for more power. Have you seen the rules for those? Yikes!
Part of where I'm going with this is to reintroduce the flavor that many people have intimated was part of SR1 and SR2, namely that you had to be at least a little off your rocker to even use magic in the first place. The world of the mage is a a world of insanity, where things happen due to pure thought, where the laws of physics and common sense fly out the window in the face of overwhelming power. Initiating--the act of utterly immersing yourself in that insane world--should have consequences akin to those of diving head-first into the mind of a mental patient.
Another factor that I wanted to add in [added, under H1-d] was that the Psionics tradition, being a somewhat more "rational" tradition than others, don't receive these penalties, or at least fewer of them. Thus, you can retain your sanity in exchange for some of the power you get as a mage.
nezumi: any other ideas to help fill that table? I need more types of crazy people with enough power to crack the planet, darnit!
I posted those in the SR3R main thread precisely because I was trying to avoid this becoming the SR3R all-magic thread though the distinction does blur pretty easily.
As for psionics, it's not a horrible idea but I'd rather reduce the degree to which anyone who views magic in a way other than Shamanic or Hermetic is at all correct rather than increase its legitimacy.
~J
though the distinction does blur pretty easily.As for psionics, it's not a horrible idea but I'd rather reduce the degree to which anyone who views magic in a way other than Shamanic or Hermetic is at all correct rather than increase its legitimacy.
~J
Summary (for p10:)
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE |
| C-12) Gecko Crawl and Levitate have the exact same target numbers and drain codes. Now, Gecko Crawl doesn't increase your TN if you mass more than 100 kilos, but is that really a big enough compensation for losing both the ability to use it to manipulate objects and the ability to leave surfaces? |
Gecko Crawl compares unfavourably enough that it would only be chosen on character grounds - there's no point in keeping redundant spells when SR3R could fix 'em.
Gecko Crawl could allow faster movement - lowering the TN to 3 or 2 would speed up lower force versions while not allowing excessive speed at high force. Reducing the drain to 0 or +1 M is another obvious measure.
| QUOTE |
| L) -1) what are the effects of a mage with Focused Concentration ingesting Psyche? No additional bonus? Something else? |
'Stack' the modifiers so that the mage with psyche and the FC edge has no penalty. No point in half redundancy - we don't want to discourage combat mages from a dependency on smart drugs.
| QUOTE |
| H) Magic EATING PUPPIES -1) Initiation eating puppies: astralpsychosis, or people going crazy from too much magic. --a) Mania: (total initiate grades gained in past decade)/2 to all social TNs. --b) Low Pain Threshold: When injured, add (total initiate grades gained in past decade/2, round down) to condition monitor to determine would penalties. --c) Mental break: If gaining more than one initiate grade in (Initiate grade) years, roll Willpower vs. TN of Grade. TN=2*Grade if less than (Initiate grade) months. Failure means you gain a neurosis. --d) The Psionics tradition, being a somewhat more "rational" tradition than others, doesn't receive these penalties, or at least fewer of them. |
Instead of basing these off initiate grades over time you could implement them as a variation of ordeals. They could lower the karma cost for initiating by .5 in addition to ordeals or not. With this approach you wouldn't need to lessen their impact.
New astralpsychosis - Pact: Initiate makes 'deal with devil' sort of like the dark secret flaw. The 'devil' could range from a malevolent free spirit to a horror (more risk & reward).
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I posted those in the SR3R main thread precisely because I was trying to avoid this becoming the SR3R all-magic thread though the distinction does blur pretty easily. |
Heh, that ship sailed awhile ago, back when ~2 pages were spent arguing over different spells. Note all of C) was discussed on this thread already at least once; in fact C is practically the only place we've gotten anyone to agree so far!
| QUOTE |
| As for psionics, it's not a horrible idea but I'd rather reduce the degree to which anyone who views magic in a way other than Shamanic or Hermetic is at all correct rather than increase its legitimacy. |
Wow that's a hard statement to parse.
So you're saying you want only Shamanic and Hermetic magic to be considered legitimate, and nothing else? Um... why, exactly? Those poor hougans, wujen, and Path of the Wheel mages! 
It's not that I'm "legitimizing" Psionics; in fact it's more like de-legitimizing it. When I say that most mages are "crazy as loons, but don't say that to their face as they're likely to kill you with their mind", I mean it in the same way that I say that sammies are "hideous, unhuman monsters, but don't say that to their faces as they'll shoot you six times before you can blink."
What I'm going for here is for magic to be, like cyberware, an exchange of what makes you "human" or "normal" in exchange for power. Cyberware exchanges your Essence--that vital connection between your soul and your body--for that power, and the result is a withdrawn, semi-mechanical being that, at low to negative levels of Essence, can't rightly be called human anymore. Magic, as I see it, should be a similar exchange: in this case, you exchange your sanity, your fundamental grip on physical, "normal" reality for power. The result is a person who no longer has any proper sense of what reality should be, who, when initiating too far or too quickly, is no longer capable of grounding his mind in the "real" world.
| QUOTE (Link) |
| Gecko Crawl compares unfavourably enough that it would only be chosen on character grounds - there's no point in keeping redundant spells when SR3R could fix 'em. Gecko Crawl could allow faster movement - lowering the TN to 3 or 2 would speed up lower force versions while not allowing excessive speed at high force. Reducing the drain to 0 or +1 M is another obvious measure. |
Faster movement as a whole could work. The problem with lowering the TN is that it is relatively unprecedented—everything with a static TN, IIRC, has it set at either 6 or 4. The drain code is another thing we can't just muck around with, because they actually did the right thing and made a system for defining how the drain codes are calculated and stuck to it. I'll have to take a look at how things work out over the weekend.
~J
An alternate idea is to have Levitate give off that "Geek-me glow" the way the Armor spell does.
I'm not sure that really changes much—ok, so it reduces the power of invisible levitation, and means you can't float around stealthily in the dark, but unlike the Armor spell Levitation gives a pretty big hint that there's something magical going on already—namely, there's something floating around in the air.
~J
~J
The problem with Gecko Crawl is that its limited in its versatility. You can only follow the walls to get around, whereas levitation can float you anywhere you please. Making levitation glow also puts limits on its versatility. Gecko Crawl becomes more sneaky, levitate becomes more powerful. In an occupation where stealth is most valuable, any spell which cuts into that stealth significantly reduces its value. I think the glow is a quick and elegant solution which brings the two approximately on par (if that's really our concern).
Okay, we've gone a week without a post; that's quite enough.
Let's start by getting rid of A and B, mostly because I thought most of B was resolved already, and the two are related enough that they should go together.
Reference:
(For those paying attention, note that I'm deliberately leaving out section A3, and B3-4 at the moment, in the interest of one debate at a time).
So, what essentially needs deciding here is this: is Essence an attribute of the astral body and it's connection with the physical body (as per B1), or an attribute of the physical body, and the energy it provides to create/sustain the astral body (B2)? In other words, is the astral body created and maintained by the body (B2), or does it exist independently (B1)?
This is immediately relevant to us first because if the astral body is created and maintained by the body, then it implies A2, that a connection must exist between the physical body and an astral body, even when the astral body is projecting. If the astral body only exists because the physical body creates it, then cutting it off from the physical body would mean it ceases to exist. You could argue that is exactly what it happening, that the loss of Essence is the astral body's slow death as it is cut off from the physical body, but that would imply that the astral body has some sort of inherent existence, that it can possess an amount of Essence that it can use to sustain itself. Only if the astral body has some sort of inherent existence in and of itself does it make sense for it to be possible to completely shut off contact with the physical body.
It is important to note, though, that the astral body having its own existence does not necessarily mean that the astral body *must* disassociate completely from the physical body while projecting; in other words B1 does not necessarily imply A1 in the same way that B2 implies A2.
Myself, I vote to go with B1 and A2. B1 makes more sense for me when looking at the Essence costs of cyberware; I have less of a problem reasoning that bone lacing for instance reduces Essence because it makes your astral self less in-tune with your physical body than I do thinking that bone lacing somehow sucks energy out of your body that would otherwise be used to create and maintain your astral self. A2 I like solely because I like the idea of snapback, that you can knock yourself out to essentially do a metaplanar shortcut back to your body. It gives astral projection the same safety net as decking, where you can jack out if things are just too hot, though in either case you leave your signature behind for anyone to follow if they so desire.
Thoughts? Comments? Votes?
Let's start by getting rid of A and B, mostly because I thought most of B was resolved already, and the two are related enough that they should go together.
Reference:
[ Spoiler ]
(For those paying attention, note that I'm deliberately leaving out section A3, and B3-4 at the moment, in the interest of one debate at a time).
So, what essentially needs deciding here is this: is Essence an attribute of the astral body and it's connection with the physical body (as per B1), or an attribute of the physical body, and the energy it provides to create/sustain the astral body (B2)? In other words, is the astral body created and maintained by the body (B2), or does it exist independently (B1)?
This is immediately relevant to us first because if the astral body is created and maintained by the body, then it implies A2, that a connection must exist between the physical body and an astral body, even when the astral body is projecting. If the astral body only exists because the physical body creates it, then cutting it off from the physical body would mean it ceases to exist. You could argue that is exactly what it happening, that the loss of Essence is the astral body's slow death as it is cut off from the physical body, but that would imply that the astral body has some sort of inherent existence, that it can possess an amount of Essence that it can use to sustain itself. Only if the astral body has some sort of inherent existence in and of itself does it make sense for it to be possible to completely shut off contact with the physical body.
It is important to note, though, that the astral body having its own existence does not necessarily mean that the astral body *must* disassociate completely from the physical body while projecting; in other words B1 does not necessarily imply A1 in the same way that B2 implies A2.
Myself, I vote to go with B1 and A2. B1 makes more sense for me when looking at the Essence costs of cyberware; I have less of a problem reasoning that bone lacing for instance reduces Essence because it makes your astral self less in-tune with your physical body than I do thinking that bone lacing somehow sucks energy out of your body that would otherwise be used to create and maintain your astral self. A2 I like solely because I like the idea of snapback, that you can knock yourself out to essentially do a metaplanar shortcut back to your body. It gives astral projection the same safety net as decking, where you can jack out if things are just too hot, though in either case you leave your signature behind for anyone to follow if they so desire.
Thoughts? Comments? Votes?
Personally, I'm more of a fan of B1 and A1—precisely because I'm not a fan of snapback. I could be convinced depending on how much else we do with Astral Space, but right now Astral Space is generally friendlier than Matrixspace, which makes me think that the same safety nets shouldn't be available.
~J
~J
Personally, I'm a fan of Essence being treated as an attribute of the whole self and not of a single Astral or Physical body, analogous to ED Patterns. Essence Loss from projection happens to both bodies at the same rate because Astral Projection is essentially cutting yourself in half, with the Physical part of your Pattern staying in one place while the Mental part of the Pattern wanders around disconnected. By the same token, if you cut yourself in half, longways , both halves might be able to survive independently for a while. Each half of your brain is able to function independently of the other. But, if you crudely cut yourself in half with a sword or something, you're two halves will almost certainly die as your blood and internal organs spill out.
Projection creates two separate but connected essences each with gaping bleeding wounds in them where they were once was connected.
I am also not a fan of snapback. I would prefer that any projecting individual should be able to instinctively find his own body due to an unbreakable connection but this requires conscious effort. Other characters can use Ritual Tracking to follow this connection in either direction. Characters who are knocked unconscious while projecting would die if they do not wake up in time to return to their bodies.
Projection creates two separate but connected essences each with gaping bleeding wounds in them where they were once was connected.
I am also not a fan of snapback. I would prefer that any projecting individual should be able to instinctively find his own body due to an unbreakable connection but this requires conscious effort. Other characters can use Ritual Tracking to follow this connection in either direction. Characters who are knocked unconscious while projecting would die if they do not wake up in time to return to their bodies.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Personally, I'm a fan of Essence being treated as an attribute of the whole self and not of a single Astral or Physical body, analogous to ED Patterns. Essence Loss from projection happens to both bodies at the same rate because Astral Projection is essentially cutting yourself in half, with the Physical part of your Pattern staying in one place while the Mental part of the Pattern wanders around disconnected. By the same token, if you cut yourself in half, longways , both halves might be able to survive independently for a while. Each half of your brain is able to function independently of the other. But, if you crudely cut yourself in half with a sword or something, you're two halves will almost certainly die as your blood and internal organs spill out. Projection creates two separate but connected essences each with gaping bleeding wounds in them where they were once was connected. |
This must be A3
I'll preface my vote by saying I don't have much philosphy about essence-cyberware, don't like snapback and I like the ED connections of A3 but know little of ED.
A1 & B2
I was going to contribute a long list of votes to the extensive thread summary but I thought it a bit pointless. This method of resolving each issue looks better (so I'll leave my point on glowing armour spells for the C-5 vote). We have issues and need closure
I still like to think of the astral self as 'running on batteries' and the body as the recharger. That helps explain how things like drain and cyberware works on essence, to a degree. Going off that, I would go with A1, with all its clauses, and B-2.
| QUOTE (Link @ May 10 2007, 10:25 PM) |
| This must be A3 |
Was told once that the right side of the brain controlls the left side of the body.
So not being in my right mind.
So a body cut in two would be as dead as a severed head.
A3 has been designated to fun and frighting extras in astral, so it would have to be A8.
Prefer A1 and B1.
With the amount of cyberware reducing the Force of the spirit able to reside within the body. B2 & B1 may also affect the explanation of where some spirits come from.
I would have to go with B1, A2.
Even then, it's not a tight fight. I see Essence as the measure of the soul's connection to the meat body. Then again, I also see Astral Projection as taking your soul out for a jaunt.
This has the obvious side effect of nothing being home in the body which would encourage the body to start shutting down after a period of time.
I definitely see A2. Mainly because that's how I interpret the rules as well as well as it makes sense.
A Decker gets dumped. His mind doesn't just get lost in the Matrix. When he recovers from the dumpshock, he's in his own head. Why shouldn't the Astral be the same way? So, yes I'm a fan of snap-back. It's effectively re-creating dumpshock, magical style.
But the above is how my SR games have always been run in terms of this sort of stuff. The players never complained about it and we all got on with the fragging, chunky salsa effects, and pay-data.
(for those that wonder, yes I'm a long-time lurker and recent forum sign-up)
Even then, it's not a tight fight. I see Essence as the measure of the soul's connection to the meat body. Then again, I also see Astral Projection as taking your soul out for a jaunt.
This has the obvious side effect of nothing being home in the body which would encourage the body to start shutting down after a period of time.
I definitely see A2. Mainly because that's how I interpret the rules as well as well as it makes sense.
A Decker gets dumped. His mind doesn't just get lost in the Matrix. When he recovers from the dumpshock, he's in his own head. Why shouldn't the Astral be the same way? So, yes I'm a fan of snap-back. It's effectively re-creating dumpshock, magical style.
But the above is how my SR games have always been run in terms of this sort of stuff. The players never complained about it and we all got on with the fragging, chunky salsa effects, and pay-data.
(for those that wonder, yes I'm a long-time lurker and recent forum sign-up)
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| A Decker gets dumped. His mind doesn't just get lost in the Matrix. When he recovers from the dumpshock, he's in his own head. Why shouldn't the Astral be the same way? |
The reason is because in the matrix, information is being formatted for you to interact with it, but everything that is you is still in the same body. It's only a representation of you out there doing all that matrix work, like a remote control car. With astral travel, it really is you going out there, your very soul, so you're not all in the same place. Hence, there's no reason the same rules apply.
(Not trying to be difficult, mind you, just answering the question.)
The tally so far...
A2 B1
A1 B1
A1 B2
A1 B2
A1 B1
A2 B1
The tribe has spoken.
A2 B1
A1 B1
A1 B2
A1 B2
A1 B1
A2 B1
The tribe has spoken.
Unless I'm missing something, that looks like an even 2-2-2 split. As such, unless some convincing argument comes forth, I'm going to make a ruling soon so we can move on.
~J
~J
I saw it as 2:1 for A1 over A2 and B1 over B2. Depends on how inter-related A & B are.
I'll toss out an easy suggestion -
When a spirit or watcher is destroyed or disrupted, the caster is NOT instantly aware of this, nor is the caster aware when the spirit runs out of time and disappears (unless he took note initially of how long the spirit would last and just watched the clock), if it got distracted and wandered off, so on and so forth.
Related, the control spirit wording should be rephrased. If the caster isn't there, he shouldn't know if his spirit gets stolen. Rather, I suggest the modified mechanic:
If the caster is present, anyone trying to control the caster's spirit follows the rules as stated in the rules. Both suffer drain as appropriate, blah blah.
If the caster is NOT present, the second mage must get more successes than the caster has remaining favors (remember, favors represent successes on the initial summoning). If the spirit has 0 favors owed to either mage, or the new mage goes unconscious, the spirit goes uncontrolled. Regardless, only the new mage rolls drain, the original caster does not.
Thoughts?
When a spirit or watcher is destroyed or disrupted, the caster is NOT instantly aware of this, nor is the caster aware when the spirit runs out of time and disappears (unless he took note initially of how long the spirit would last and just watched the clock), if it got distracted and wandered off, so on and so forth.
Related, the control spirit wording should be rephrased. If the caster isn't there, he shouldn't know if his spirit gets stolen. Rather, I suggest the modified mechanic:
If the caster is present, anyone trying to control the caster's spirit follows the rules as stated in the rules. Both suffer drain as appropriate, blah blah.
If the caster is NOT present, the second mage must get more successes than the caster has remaining favors (remember, favors represent successes on the initial summoning). If the spirit has 0 favors owed to either mage, or the new mage goes unconscious, the spirit goes uncontrolled. Regardless, only the new mage rolls drain, the original caster does not.
Thoughts?
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| When a spirit or watcher is destroyed or disrupted, the caster is NOT instantly aware of this, nor is the caster aware when the spirit runs out of time and disappears (unless he took note initially of how long the spirit would last and just watched the clock), if it got distracted and wandered off, so on and so forth. |
This may be the case now, particularly with spirits bound (or on standby) but not called or those on remote service.
| QUOTE |
| Related, the control spirit wording should be rephrased. If the caster isn't there, he shouldn't know if his spirit gets stolen. Rather, I suggest the modified mechanic: |
An alternative rule could be to consider those spirits out of the summoner's immediate reach* as 'uncontrolled' to the extent they can be taken control of without his knowlege using the rule for Uncontrolled Elementals. Otherwise taking control of a spirit on remote service would be pointless as it has no services remaining.
[ Spoiler ]
These ideas do make conjuring a little more unpredictable and mysterious which is as it should be, so I'm for it.
*For elementals, out of sight in SR1 & 2 or 100-200m in SR3.
Anyone have a list of all the rule-changes thus far for magic?
One thing I would like to see somewhat changed is Astral Perception (duh... we all seem to want that, just no agreeing on how). It's too powerful right now, you 'see' everything and a GM has to really bend the rules or rules-lawyer them alot to 'fix' alot of the problems; as do players often enough.
Example: If you see someone's aura that you've seen before. You immediately recognize it. I can't even tell you what someone looked like that I met a week ago, and a good chance I wouldn't recognize them if I didn't get friendly with them, after a week. My aura-memory shouldn't be better. There's not even a "these 2 auras seem kinda similar' aspect, they're all so completely different it seems that you insta recognize them despite completely different moods the same person might have between then and now. I'm sorry, but I can't fathom how you'd recognize my aura right now when you see it again next week and my mood/attitude/actions have all changed. Or how it's so much different than yours when we're both 'feeling' pretty similarly.
Another example... Invisibility, which in my opinion, shouldn't be visible on the Astral. 'sense'able, I'm ok with (after all, with thermal organ bioware you can sense the invisible on the physical plane). But auto-detect, I'm not ok with. I think you should auto-sense that someone/thing is invisible near you, that hairs-on-the-back-of-your-neck sorta thing, but not a clear sight/visual as it is now, which helps pull it away from a more visual sense and into a more 'new' sense.
I'd also like to see Astral Perception made a bit stronger too, but in a different aspect. I think it should be your 6th sense. You can't shut-off your hearing/sight/etc, neither should you be able to shut off your 6th sense. However, like vision, you don't have to 'focus' on something with it (which makes you astrally active), but you should 'sense' with it. I think this should include a rule that anyone with astral perception can often 'see' things that mundanes can't. You might assume that the astrally projecting mage by the window is actually a mundane person standing there, not realizing he's spying on your meeting. Or think ghosts are real people at times. Etc etc.
I think too much effort has gone into making perception a mechanic and not a roleplaying tool in the recent editions. While I'm always ok with more mechanics, I think the game would be better with a different twist to perception. Thoughts?
One thing I would like to see somewhat changed is Astral Perception (duh... we all seem to want that, just no agreeing on how). It's too powerful right now, you 'see' everything and a GM has to really bend the rules or rules-lawyer them alot to 'fix' alot of the problems; as do players often enough.
Example: If you see someone's aura that you've seen before. You immediately recognize it. I can't even tell you what someone looked like that I met a week ago, and a good chance I wouldn't recognize them if I didn't get friendly with them, after a week. My aura-memory shouldn't be better. There's not even a "these 2 auras seem kinda similar' aspect, they're all so completely different it seems that you insta recognize them despite completely different moods the same person might have between then and now. I'm sorry, but I can't fathom how you'd recognize my aura right now when you see it again next week and my mood/attitude/actions have all changed. Or how it's so much different than yours when we're both 'feeling' pretty similarly.
Another example... Invisibility, which in my opinion, shouldn't be visible on the Astral. 'sense'able, I'm ok with (after all, with thermal organ bioware you can sense the invisible on the physical plane). But auto-detect, I'm not ok with. I think you should auto-sense that someone/thing is invisible near you, that hairs-on-the-back-of-your-neck sorta thing, but not a clear sight/visual as it is now, which helps pull it away from a more visual sense and into a more 'new' sense.
I'd also like to see Astral Perception made a bit stronger too, but in a different aspect. I think it should be your 6th sense. You can't shut-off your hearing/sight/etc, neither should you be able to shut off your 6th sense. However, like vision, you don't have to 'focus' on something with it (which makes you astrally active), but you should 'sense' with it. I think this should include a rule that anyone with astral perception can often 'see' things that mundanes can't. You might assume that the astrally projecting mage by the window is actually a mundane person standing there, not realizing he's spying on your meeting. Or think ghosts are real people at times. Etc etc.
I think too much effort has gone into making perception a mechanic and not a roleplaying tool in the recent editions. While I'm always ok with more mechanics, I think the game would be better with a different twist to perception. Thoughts?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.