Full Version: Ghosts With No Shells [System Failure SPOILERS]
| QUOTE (Supercilious) |
| Alright, so I admit that that is probably all wrong and I do not even believe any of it, but the Nuke was a better move than not nuking the city... |
Well ya, only it still is a pretty damn Bad Thing™.
Admittedly Chicago is slowly becoming faded past and less and less a problem for Ares/Knight as time passes.
IRL Union Carbide has mostly been able survive past the death of 10,000's in Bhopal India behind them, although they had to go through a company name change to do it. It has now been twenty years, and though people still bring it up it doesn't seem to be nearly as huge a burden for Dow anymore. For Cermak it's been about 15 years in game time.
| QUOTE (Jürgen Hubert) |
| Where does it say anything about an Ares-Shedim connection? I missed that one... |
Threats 2.
the "Ares connection" with shedim is a mid-level manager at an Ares subsidiary who got inhabited by a master shedim. i wouldn't quite say that Ares is riddled with shedim.
Yeah. He's not even a VP of Ares. He's a VP at GM.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Sep 5 2005, 01:52 PM) |
| the "Ares connection" with shedim is a mid-level manager at an Ares subsidiary who got inhabited by a master shedim. i wouldn't quite say that Ares is riddled with shedim. |
I didn't say riddled with shedim, just wierd magic badness. I don't think there is anything about master shedim working together to help each other infiltrate an organization.
The bugs are by far the more troubling aspect. I'm not sure which would be worse, Knight knowing about that project or not knowing about. It just seems that the signs are building that Ares is headed for a serious slide. In spite of picking up some assests right after the Crash.
Does it concern anyone else that one of these "ghosts" is/was a dragon?
say what?
that means that the utility could read brains thru trodes or something.
or else that dragon had gotten the impossible done and gotten a datajack installed!
that means that the utility could read brains thru trodes or something.
or else that dragon had gotten the impossible done and gotten a datajack installed!
I'm guessing you haven't read Dragons of the Sixth World.
Long and short of it, yes, there is a dragon with a datajack.
That dragon was also sucked into the Matrix (and ends up in a setting the is described very similarly to Alice's world, actually) while its meat body is comatose.
Long and short of it, yes, there is a dragon with a datajack.
That dragon was also sucked into the Matrix (and ends up in a setting the is described very similarly to Alice's world, actually) while its meat body is comatose.
| QUOTE (Supercilious) | ||
I do not own system failure yet, is why I was asking about how it is known for sure that they were dead. |
I'm not even sure Deus, Mirage, and Meagera are dead. I have serious doubts that Alice really is. It seems strange to kill off the first Ghost in the Machine at the same time there is a section on how to deal with them if a PC becomes one including multiple ways to calculate stats.
Then again, there are a lot of things that don't make sense in Shadowrun. This wouldn't even crack the top ten.
nope no dragons book on me, looks like i have missed out on something there 
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| nope no dragons book on me, looks like i have missed out on something there |
Well, Dragons of the Sixth World has the reference to Neurosis (the dragon known as Eliohann), who typically uses an icon of a three-headed dog (supposedly the same icon of a flatlined decker, whose persona he "stole"). But it goes back even further, to an early 1991 run called Dragon Hunt (barely out of the 2050s, there), where we first meet the datajacked Dragon.
There is a Sixth World Wiki entry on him:
http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Eliohann
hmm, the very tought of a team being able to survive a encounter with a dragon, much less capturing him alive is a bit odd...
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| hmm, the very tought of a team being able to survive a encounter with a dragon, much less capturing him alive is a bit odd... |
Well, this was a newly Awakened dragon who was fascinated with technology (which was used as "bait" to capture him by professional critter hunters)... the combination of the dragon's naive nature and the critter hunters' expertise got him. After his capture and implantation, the dragon was "willingly" cooperating with his captors to get "hits" of the Matrix (he was addicted to the Matrix). The end of the Dragon Hunt has the runners dumbfounded as the Dragon himself says "There's no need to rescue me", despite the fact that the runners had to break into the clinic and possible take out several security guards in the process. It's an interesting run, especially for being written so early in the development cycle of Shadowrun.
WTF?! Where the hell did Nadja Daviar go?? I have got to get that FREAKING book!
Word of warning - If you think this book will give you even the slightest clue, you're sorely mistaken.
And that's one of the reasons why I got it.
And that's one of the reasons why I got it.
Jong:
| QUOTE |
| Ares has a master shedim as one of its VPs. |
WTF!
| QUOTE |
| Nadja Daviar, one of its main shareholders, is missing. |
At the risk of repeating myself and demonstrating a vocabulary definfency .... WTF!?!?!
Damn I need to get that book.
Just got SoA BTW> Always get a kick out of seeing your name in there. And D.E. posting. BTW D.E., if you're watching, I assume that DE is a character of yours? What kind ? Decker? just curios
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) | ||
WTF! |
This is a miscommunication of the master shedim entry in Threats 2.
I like the idea that the Seraphim, who were all badass in Corporate Download and elsewhere got their asses handed to them, big-time.
I don't really like some of the effects of the Crash, that the worst that may happen is crappy Matrix and that it may affect a SIN with the edges & flaws from Sprawl Survival Guide, and that too many people got off easy.
Personally, I'm playing it up as it's the end of the world as nearly everyone know it. Asses will bleed.
I don't really like some of the effects of the Crash, that the worst that may happen is crappy Matrix and that it may affect a SIN with the edges & flaws from Sprawl Survival Guide, and that too many people got off easy.
Personally, I'm playing it up as it's the end of the world as nearly everyone know it. Asses will bleed.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 7 2005, 05:43 AM) |
| BTW D.E., if you're watching, I assume that DE is a character of yours? What kind ? Decker? just curios |
Demonseed Elite is Jay's staple character and an Otaku from Calcutta, so I thought it an appropriate voice given that Jay and I cooperated on several elements of the Indian Subcontinent chapter (ie. Orissa)
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||||
This is a miscommunication of the master shedim entry in Threats 2. |
ahh... that I remember. Thanks Blakkie for clearing THAT one up.
| QUOTE |
| I don't really like some of the effects of the Crash, that the worst that may happen is crappy Matrix and that it may affect a SIN with the edges & flaws from Sprawl Survival Guide, and that too many people got off easy. |
That's the only side effects felt? You're kidding, right? Wouldn't the fall of the Matrix have side effects near that to the '29 crash (assuming most folks learned their lesson of 'back up everything')
Synner:thanks, that explains a lot, including D.E.'s frustration at people misunderstanding/using otaku, which I tend to agree with. Still not sure if I'm thrilled about 'technomancers', but I should get my 4th ed. on Friday (Thanks to my FLGS! That store guy needsa friggin' cape). Guess we'll see then if I become Fistandantilus4.0 or 3.5.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 7 2005, 07:45 AM) |
| That's the only side effects felt? You're kidding, right? Wouldn't the fall of the Matrix have side effects near that to the '29 crash (assuming most folks learned their lesson of 'back up everything') |
He's either kidding or ignoring many of the options provided in the Crash 2.0 chapter game info. That particular section covers some of the potential transport disruptions, communication breakdown, mechanized disasters and social chaos as fallout of the Crash and EMP strikes.
Note it doesn't include the "secondary damage" caused by the Firnbul winter, the release of Ymir and Surtr, or the direct damage from the limited nuclear detonations (rather than the enhanced EMP) which has been left for gamemasters to scale to their needs and the tone of their campaigns.
The death toll is in the hundreds of thousands if not millions.
ok, yeah, need to get the book now. Thanks Synner. any ETA yet? I'd have the stupid pdf by now if I wasn't restricted to only having the internet at work ATM. Need book.
No SystemFailure no SoLA make Fistandantilus something something.....
No SystemFailure no SoLA make Fistandantilus something something.....
[ Spoiler ]
The options are too tame, and if that's the case then there shouldn't even be static on the trids because the power's out everywhere.
| QUOTE (System Failure @ 106) |
| At exactly nine o’ clock, Senator Braddock and several high-ranking commanders in the UCAS armed forces will make a speech, utilizing the still-intact Public Broadcast Network. |
Can't happen. No one's trid works.
| QUOTE (System Failure @ 106) |
| She turned on a small trid set, clicking through the channels. Each of them had a PLEASE STAND BY sign from the Federal Emergency Management Agency, with a timer slowly ticking down. ... The timer reached zero, and the image switched to a podium shot with the small KSAF logo in the lower right corner. |
See above.
Too. Tame.
Everything. Everything should be down. The idea of FM and AM radio, of VHF and UHF televsion, in 2064 is a crazy nightmare of the Bad Old Days in light of Matrix content distribution. Sure, GridGuide's down, but my perception and what's actually written are considerably different as to the Hell which the world would be subjected to.
The options are a nice start. I can't even begin to fathom the above, let alone how anything comes back up anytime in the forseeable future (let alone the whole world being fairly okay by summer). It's the end of the world, but somehow it doesn't really seem like it.
Oh, except Europe. Lucky them.
Too tame?
One could even argue that, considering the redundant clustered construction oft the matrix, it's quite impressive the second 'crash' happened at all, ..because, well - the explicit reason the matrix was constructed this way was the lesson from the first crash: to prevent a second.
Considering that, it is at least one of the more plausible aspects of SF to state that the matrix was never down in its entirety, even though the attacks were launched from multiple points.
One could even argue that, considering the redundant clustered construction oft the matrix, it's quite impressive the second 'crash' happened at all, ..because, well - the explicit reason the matrix was constructed this way was the lesson from the first crash: to prevent a second.
Considering that, it is at least one of the more plausible aspects of SF to state that the matrix was never down in its entirety, even though the attacks were launched from multiple points.
It was my understanding (having not yet to have read the book) that not all of the "emp nukes" went off. If that is correct then wouldn't it possible for certain trids in certain regions to still be up and running?
| QUOTE |
| Synner:thanks, that explains a lot, including D.E.'s frustration at people misunderstanding/using otaku, which I tend to agree with. Still not sure if I'm thrilled about 'technomancers', but I should get my 4th ed. on Friday (Thanks to my FLGS! That store guy needsa friggin' cape). |
I'm not sure about technomancers yet either. I'm still processing them. The concept of them isn't the direction I would have gone, but it's possible someone will do some really cool things with them that will change my mind.
| QUOTE (Superbum @ Sep 7 2005, 02:44 PM) |
| It was my understanding (having not yet to have read the book) that not all of the "emp nukes" went off. If that is correct then wouldn't it possible for certain trids in certain regions to still be up and running? |
Indeed.
Compared to the first crash, the second one was a crash 'light'.
It was just perceived as much more devastating, as the matrix was much more integrated into everyday life than the internet.
What is really gone right now is CSS - most commsats 'went home' - in this respect, SR4 is less 'wireless' than SR3.
It's a shame there aren't more fission reactors in the Sixth World.
I broke down and picked up the System Failure PDF.
I really really nervous to read it since it's like.....watching a good friend dying on life support or something.
Yes, it's a fairly sad and pathetic existence I lead.
I really really nervous to read it since it's like.....watching a good friend dying on life support or something.
Yes, it's a fairly sad and pathetic existence I lead.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) | ||
I'm not sure about technomancers yet either. I'm still processing them. The concept of them isn't the direction I would have gone, but it's possible someone will do some really cool things with them that will change my mind. |
so did you have any specific thoughts on where to go with the otaku before technomancers?
Personally, I think that picture in (I think Matrix) of the little girl with the teddy bear and datajack, and the hand descending from the copmuter board really summed them up for me. Dirty (at least at first, very street-orphan-ish), apart from the rest of the world, uncouth, mysterious, even dangerous (which is saying something for a 7 year old), and part of something much larger. I loved the whole 'creepy kid 'vibe, and that these were children being used for the purposes of something completely alien to our normal way of thinking.
I don't know whta the hell I see technomancers as, except *cringe* Neo
Well, if you want a cooler example, you can try the Bishop, from Avalon
honestly, I'll most likely never get a chance to. Any chance you could some it up Bobby-ol'buddy ol' pal?
My main problem with Technomancers in SR4 is that they do not require a datajack or cyber-commlink. Since all known otaku, and ghosts in the machine, where plugged in and changed somehow by an AI or similar, how do Technomancers who weren't plugged in at the crash, or plug in later, get their reworked brain-structure and abilities?
Also, I think we will need a sourcebook with updates and 'in-between' story for the years 2065-2070. SR4 so far leaves the time almost untouched, but I'm hoping that the upcoming Magic and Matrix books might go into larger detail.
To name a few questions:
Also, I think we will need a sourcebook with updates and 'in-between' story for the years 2065-2070. SR4 so far leaves the time almost untouched, but I'm hoping that the upcoming Magic and Matrix books might go into larger detail.
To name a few questions:
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE |
| so did you have any specific thoughts on where to go with the otaku before technomancers? |
My first thought and my favorite, concerning otaku, was for them to be NPC-only. I think they are great setting elements (just like you described them and that picture in Matrix) but they don't mesh very well with the player world of a shadowrunning team. I feel the same way about other elements of SR, like ghouls, shapeshifters, ghosts in the machine, and free spirits. But that's not the direction all players prefer and it's not the direction the SR developers wanted to go.
If I were hypothetically told to personally write up SR4 otaku and integrate them into the game I probably would have done it similar to the way it was done, but they would have continued to use commlinks. I just personally have a real hard time wrapping my head around that part of SR4's technomancers, and I said so during development, but it wasn't my show. I do like what was done with SR4's techomancers, though, besides that one point. I think they are better integrated into the game, which was the stated goal.
snowRaven, I'm sure that at least some of those questions will be answered. I don't think they will be answered in any sort of in-between story product, but they will likely be answered in other ways. I'd be pretty surprised if you don't see a lot more on the subject of the AIs in Unwired.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| My first thought and my favorite, concerning otaku, was for them to be NPC-only. I think they are great setting elements (just like you described them and that picture in Matrix) but they don't mesh very well with the player world of a shadowrunning team. |
I find that strange coming from someone whose Otaku had made appearances in several sourcebooks.
| QUOTE |
| If I were hypothetically told to personally write up SR4 otaku and integrate them into the game I probably would have done it similar to the way it was done, but they would have continued to use commlinks. I just personally have a real hard time wrapping my head around that part of SR4's technomancers, and I said so during development, but it wasn't my show. |
You mean that it's biologically impossible? Yeah, I can't imagine why people would have problems with that.
I would have made the otaku discover a method to fight off the warding that was a combination of, I don't know, simsense therapy, chemical injections, and transient nanites that left them physically in poor shape.
They'd essentially be addicted to this constant upkeep, suffering fading as well as physical withdraw if they went too long without it. Having grown up cracking data as a matter of habit you'd see few, if any, integrate into corporate lifestyle at any point in their future. Combine this with a deep paranoid fear of the Man who runs the matrix and defines these access restrictions that they feel an almost religious zeal to break, and I think you can see why they'd turn to running in order to aquire their continued treatments.
They'd essentially be addicted to this constant upkeep, suffering fading as well as physical withdraw if they went too long without it. Having grown up cracking data as a matter of habit you'd see few, if any, integrate into corporate lifestyle at any point in their future. Combine this with a deep paranoid fear of the Man who runs the matrix and defines these access restrictions that they feel an almost religious zeal to break, and I think you can see why they'd turn to running in order to aquire their continued treatments.
| QUOTE |
| I find that strange coming from someone whose Otaku had made appearances in several sourcebooks. |
Why's that strange?
| QUOTE |
[ Spoiler ] |
[ Spoiler ]
Yeah. They did actively impede KSAF though.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| [QUOTE] [ Spoiler ] |
Yes, I didn't say they sent the thor shot - but it seems they were assisting whomever did - as James pointed out.
Plus, although it isn't explicitly stated, I get the feeling from the way Priault words the message that S-K might've had a hand in finding him, as well. But that part is pure speculation.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| snowRaven, I'm sure that at least some of those questions will be answered. I don't think they will be answered in any sort of in-between story product, but they will likely be answered in other ways. I'd be pretty surprised if you don't see a lot more on the subject of the AIs in Unwired. |
I don't expect an in-between product either (hell, SF is the in-between product, really...) - I had just hoped for a little more 'meat' on the long-term aftermath in SF, as well as SR4, since some of the threads left dangling are the size of Lofwyr's ****...
I'm just wondering how a person as famous and monitored, with as many staffers and security personnel as Nadja Daviar has just disappears.
I mean, if the image on page 106 is any indication the assault on the White House would have required the NR to kill or incapacitate many dozens of people, and do so with enough speed and precision to defeat the Secret Service's best on their home turf badly enough that they didn't even make it into the Oval Office before the soldiers did even though there are agents stationed outside the doors the soldiers in the foreground would have had to go through.
That's doesn't require some creative license so much as it does a massive suspension of disbelief.
I mean, if the image on page 106 is any indication the assault on the White House would have required the NR to kill or incapacitate many dozens of people, and do so with enough speed and precision to defeat the Secret Service's best on their home turf badly enough that they didn't even make it into the Oval Office before the soldiers did even though there are agents stationed outside the doors the soldiers in the foreground would have had to go through.
That's doesn't require some creative license so much as it does a massive suspension of disbelief.
<rubs_eyes> Reality check, kids. Shadowrun's setting is built up on a careful lattice of suspended disbelief. For Ghosts sake, if you can accept dragons ruling megacorps ruling nations, the dissapearence of one elf chica - I may add here that one of the staples of the game is carefully planned and skillfully executed extractions and assassinations - should not rate that much high on the disbelief scale. There are many, many other factors that could do with a much higher percentage of your brain time.
Thank you citizens. I now return you to your already scheduled thread, already in progress.
Thank you citizens. I now return you to your already scheduled thread, already in progress.
| QUOTE (snowRaven) |
| Yes, I didn't say they sent the thor shot - but it seems they were assisting whomever did - as James pointed out. Plus, although it isn't explicitly stated, I get the feeling from the way Priault words the message that S-K might've had a hand in finding him, as well. But that part is pure speculation. |
[ Spoiler ]
Yes, but it becomes a bit harder if you've ever actually been in the White House.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Yes, but it becomes a bit harder if you've ever actually been in the White House. |
Even the best security can be utterly decimated, it is just a matter of knowning its weaknesses and exploiting them. The White House is no exception. If anything, it is less secure than most top secret military and megacorp facilities simply because the security has to be very transparent.
Of course, it is always possible that she just freaking Netherwalked to the metaplanes and poped back out in her secret antartic fortress of solitude because she needed a break from the spotlight.
...
It's also possible that a significant number of White House staffers and Secret Service men on duty on the particular night were secret NR-sympathizers (or at least a few strategically placed ones)...
As for Daviar, just pretend all her government bodyguards were NR guys, and that Ryan Mercury was gunned down while defending her.
The book's picture is not exactly what I had envisioned, but it's makes the point and is very amusing. I didn't imagine Haeffner as Peter Parker's editor.
The book's picture is not exactly what I had envisioned, but it's makes the point and is very amusing. I didn't imagine Haeffner as Peter Parker's editor.
| QUOTE (JongWK) |
| As for Daviar, just pretend all her government bodyguards were NR guys, and that Ryan Mercury was gunned down while defending her. |
His corpse burned and the ash buried within a magical sealed box of orichalcum deep in the australian outback, guarded by a bataillion of Special Forces Drop Bears. So he will never come back.
That would be nice.
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