Right, it's time for me to bow out for a day or two and cool down. If no one else has explained it by then I'll pick it up again.
~J
Full Version: AR Zones
"sorry sir, we dont have to care. we are a megacorporation" 
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I will repeat it again: the only reason why spam zones, as presented, would be able to exist would be due to the complete fucking idiocy of everyone involved in design or purchasing of the new systems. |
Idiocy or genius? Marketing genius, that is. Think about it; you're a corp and you generally end up giving many of your employees their comms. (Okay, they're buying it with their taxes but we don't call it that) Do you enable them to shut off the spam? Don't you want them to see the spam? If they are in your office building during the day and a corp-owned apartment at night, what spam is bad spam?
Today we have cell phones that are artificially locked to one carrier, with hardware features that are enabled or disabled based on the carrier's planned pricing schema, computers given out at schools that kids are accused of hacking if they run iTunes, ad-sponsored internet and spyware and you really think that in the future setting of corporate jurisdictions that people would be allowed to disable the advertising?
In the future only criminals will have spam blocking.
"comlink blocking spam detected. termination of commie traitor user authorized" 
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 6 2005, 02:56 PM) |
| Right, it's time for me to bow out for a day or two and cool down. If no one else has explained it by then I'll pick it up again. |
You explained It, i got It, i rejected It. Why? The short version is finding fault in your assumption that highest security will be chosen over functional use and crappy design effort. History has repeatedly shown otherwise. Also because it's a game and the concept makes for more fun play than being a nitpicking turd worrying over the minute technical details about this and that. YMMV.
So, being a guy without an SR4 to reference, lemmie ask a really simple question...
Is it possible to firewall and immunize your computer so that malicious crap like spamzones don't bother you? I'm looking at it like this: a windows 2000 box, when installed and put on the internet, has a median time-to-compromise of about 20 minutes, according to security studies I've read. Yes, on average, only 20 minutes until your computer gets compromised when you don't take steps. Now, on the other hand, my home computer is pretty damn rock solid when it comes to getting by without popups, data mining cookies, malicious active X, etc.
I *assume* it's possible to immunize your computers, your cyberware, and your senses. Is it? Because if not, that's a huge reason not to have any cyberware, ever, at all.
Is it possible to firewall and immunize your computer so that malicious crap like spamzones don't bother you? I'm looking at it like this: a windows 2000 box, when installed and put on the internet, has a median time-to-compromise of about 20 minutes, according to security studies I've read. Yes, on average, only 20 minutes until your computer gets compromised when you don't take steps. Now, on the other hand, my home computer is pretty damn rock solid when it comes to getting by without popups, data mining cookies, malicious active X, etc.
I *assume* it's possible to immunize your computers, your cyberware, and your senses. Is it? Because if not, that's a huge reason not to have any cyberware, ever, at all.
If a device is hackable it can be targeted by spam. Most Users will have a firewall of 1 or 2. An agent loaded with exploit and edit woulb be able to do it. And don't tell me it's illegal.
Well, my concern is 'are there preventative measures available to non-specialized characters', more than 'will Joe Average be able to defend himself?'
And as to rote-spam machines gaining illegal access to someone's pan via a frame... If a basic, cheap-o spam box can bypass a firewall rating 1 or 2, the companies making those security measures have no business calling them security measures. *G*
And as to rote-spam machines gaining illegal access to someone's pan via a frame... If a basic, cheap-o spam box can bypass a firewall rating 1 or 2, the companies making those security measures have no business calling them security measures. *G*
| QUOTE |
| Also because it's a game and the concept makes for more fun play ... YMMV |
MMDV, thanks. I think it's a ridiculous addition. I'd leave it out if I were GMing 4th (not likely).
Why? Because to me it's the same as putting every little fantasy monster in SR just to please the D&D players (of which I am one, and it still pissed me off to see "dryads and cyclops and dark elves <read:drow>" in the freaking game).
It's lame, it's only there as a "hehehe, look what we put in", and frankly the only reason I can see a GM actively using it for in a game is to fuck with the players, and there are far less petty/stupid ways of doing that.
I could see the version where you walk up to a soda machine, and a 3d holo pops up when you're within 3 feet with a hot elf chick telling you how great FizzyPop is, but having that being fed to and generated by your own 'ware?
And as was mentioned before, the norms might put up with that shit, but a runner sure as hell wouldn't. There's no way in hades that a runner wouldn't figure out a way, or pay someone to figure out a way, to filter that crap out.
That said, use it all you like. It's your game. I just didn't care for the idea that not liking it somehow meant being a "nitpicking turd" as you put it.
As soon as you run your comlink in 'passive' mode, this spam is gone.
Another question: How can a commlink differentiate between a normal device sendig AR information about how it can be used (with "arrows" and the stuff) and a spam sender sending an image or holo as a "panel"?
| QUOTE (prionic6) |
| Another question: How can a commlink differentiate between a normal device sendig AR information about how it can be used (with "arrows" and the stuff) and a spam sender sending an image or holo as a "panel"? |
It would need an active program to "read" the AR data packets and filter them based on algorithms (just like today's Spam blockers).
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| That said, use it all you like. It's your game. I just didn't care for the idea that not liking it somehow meant being a "nitpicking turd" as you put it. |
Worrying that it isn't realistic? Yup, that's where i'd rank that. -Especially- when the worry is based on faulty assumptions.
P.S. I doubt that mfb of all people suggested putting it in just cuz.
Spam zones will actually be good places to have meets and similar, as it won't be a surprise to find many people switching their comms off in such zones. Therefore, lurking and setting up ambushes make a deal of sense in all the Dead, Static, and Spam zones.
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| And as to rote-spam machines gaining illegal access to someone's pan via a frame... If a basic, cheap-o spam box can bypass a firewall rating 1 or 2, the companies making those security measures have no business calling them security measures. *G* |
heh, have never stoped any real life companys form doing just that
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Well, my concern is 'are there preventative measures available to non-specialized characters', more than 'will Joe Average be able to defend himself?' |
Yeah, the same defense against someone hacking your gun works in spam zones without showing up as a dangerous criminal: carry 2 comms. One Comm is a judas goat decoy; it's your generic low-end unit with all the default settings and loaded with your public persona (legal or otherwise). The other is your "working" Comm with encryption, a decent firewall, and running in stealth mode.
And hacking a Comm will likely end up tantamount to an act of agression between megacorps. I mean, if a junior VP of Renrakan Widgets bops down to the mall for a quick bowl of noodles away from the board room and gets his Comm hacked with spam by The Gap you can be sure there will be some retribution.
| QUOTE (kigmatzomat) |
| Yeah, the same defense against someone hacking your gun works in spam zones without showing up as a dangerous criminal: carry 2 comms. One Comm is a judas goat decoy; it's your generic low-end unit with all the default settings and loaded with your public persona (legal or otherwise). The other is your "working" Comm with encryption, a decent firewall, and running in stealth mode. |
This becomes really important when owning a implanted commlink, too, as one can hardly ditch it.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| This becomes really important when owning a implanted commlink, too, as one can hardly ditch it. |
You should be able to reassign a identifiers to it though?
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I will repeat it again: the only reason why spam zones, as presented, would be able to exist would be due to the complete fucking idiocy of everyone involved in design or purchasing of the new systems. |
that, or the laws which regulate such zones, combined with intelligently-designed security systems that automatically block anything which registers as being overly distracting (eg, your highway example). VR has been around for four decades, in SR, and every simsense trick you can think of to pull in AR has more than likely already been pulled and countered in VR.
sure, you could hack someone's AR interface and fill it with black squares while they're doing 120mph down the freeway. but doing it legally, without tripping the user's own basic security countermeasures, after forty years of ASIST and nearly a century in the trenches of the spam war? i'm going to have to go with "no fuckin' way" for a thousand, jack.
I just have this great mental image of those adds that always pop up "Shoot the cowboy and win a latptop" with a little cowboy that jumps all over the place, and you can't get rid of the damn pop up, because the 'X" is at the far left, and as soon as you scroll over, it extends its' self, so you're perpetually trying to get the 'X" instead of the damn cowboay, so eventually you have to lock and up and go to task manager to close the damn thing stopping EVEYRHTING you're doing.
Except it's been spammed into the street sams smartlink when he's trying to pop a gaurd, and all he sees is the stupid cowboy.
Except it's been spammed into the street sams smartlink when he's trying to pop a gaurd, and all he sees is the stupid cowboy.
Punch the monkey! Punch the monkey! 
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| The short answer is no, I don't love them. Dead zones make sense but aren't anything special. Static zones are crippled by a name that is only vaguely descriptive, while spam zones… make me angry from the sheer stupidity. ~J |
Wait a bit.
There are already plans to use the geolocation of your cell phone, cross-indexed with marketing databases, to send you text messages with targeted advertising.
I'm not making that up. I used to work at a company that was actively developing the technology.
Give it about 5 years.
| QUOTE (ef31415) | ||
Wait a bit. There are already plans to use the geolocation of your cell phone, cross-indexed with marketing databases, to send you text messages with targeted advertising. I'm not making that up. I used to work at a company that was actively developing the technology. Give it about 5 years. |
I'm looking forward to it. Nothing like a little extra income under the junk fax laws.
~J
having just rea teh section in question, it seems that joe schmoe, Yuor averge wage slave, is Totaly Screwed ™, just by walking down the street.
it's stated that there are bots out there that specialise in getting arround firewall 1, and 2. which means that with the cheapest comlink solution (300Y, REsponse 1, fw 1, Signal2, system1) is just going to be flooded by popups, the second that he walks in the door of his local "spam zone".
Ok. you think. Just stick the damn thing in passive mode. that's when the "acme spambot 2000" kicks in, an detects, and then by-passes the firewall, and (knowing most corps) sticks 3000 popups all over everything.
Then the local mall security bot hits him with a spotlight, and yells at him for not running an active PAN.
Lets face it people. Joe and Jane Q public are basically going to be facing a constant barrage of spam, popups, ads, and other unsavorys 24/7. Talk about long term brainwashing. hell, lets just think about that for a second. Most people on the streets are going to be subject to so much advertising so much of the time, that they're just going to tune it out. That's why the references to
it's stated that there are bots out there that specialise in getting arround firewall 1, and 2. which means that with the cheapest comlink solution (300Y, REsponse 1, fw 1, Signal2, system1) is just going to be flooded by popups, the second that he walks in the door of his local "spam zone".
Ok. you think. Just stick the damn thing in passive mode. that's when the "acme spambot 2000" kicks in, an detects, and then by-passes the firewall, and (knowing most corps) sticks 3000 popups all over everything.
Then the local mall security bot hits him with a spotlight, and yells at him for not running an active PAN.
Lets face it people. Joe and Jane Q public are basically going to be facing a constant barrage of spam, popups, ads, and other unsavorys 24/7. Talk about long term brainwashing. hell, lets just think about that for a second. Most people on the streets are going to be subject to so much advertising so much of the time, that they're just going to tune it out. That's why the references to
| QUOTE |
| "Manipulative Advertising tricks are legal (or atleast tolerate), including Filter-bypassing, Sensory Blastng iAR popups, Emotive Charge Sim feeds (Porm Stims being common), Viral Memes, Spyware, and so much more common in Tourist areas, and red light districts, Spamzones can be very distracking (-1 to -3 dice pool penalty)" |
are just so damn worrying.
Not only from a "lets stick it to the public", but also "viral Meme's and Spyware"
Today spyware mostly just sits there, and sees what websites you're visiting, and occasionally checks to see what software you're running.
now imagine the 2070 version. It knows where you've been.(GPS) it knows where you're going (it has access to your date-planner). It knows who you call, and where they live (adress book), what their preferences are (assuming that you've atleast looked at their personal data on their own PAN). More worryingly, it can also be used to see if you've been in any of the corps competitors shops, and then, thanks to that Viral Meme, Start spamming Everyone arround you. Be afraid people. Be VERY VERY afraid.
AS for your average runner, the only reall solution seems to be to have a sacrificial Comlink, with a decent rating fake ID on it, and to have all your cyberware and running gear slaved (nay, HARDWIRED) into a second, top 'o' the line, Firewalled to hell and back, Anti spam / detection Sprite/frame running comlink, that stays "dark" for 99% of the time.
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 7 2005, 05:20 AM) |
| You should be able to reassign a identifiers to it though? |
When you can hack, yes - it takes some time, though.
| QUOTE (golden1) |
| AS for your average runner, the only reall solution seems to be to have a sacrificial Comlink, with a decent rating fake ID on it, and to have all your cyberware and running gear slaved (nay, HARDWIRED) into a second, top 'o' the line, Firewalled to hell and back, Anti spam / detection Sprite/frame running comlink, that stays "dark" for 99% of the time. |
Cyberware can communicate with each other without using wireless.
So if you get yourself an implanted commlink/datajack, there is no need even buying wireless-enabled ware.
| QUOTE |
| having just rea teh section in question, it seems that joe schmoe, Yuor averge wage slave, is Totaly Screwed ™, just by walking down the street. |
The world outside is a dangerous, loud, messy place. But don't fear, the Corporation will protect you.
Silly thought - what about drivers?
Do these spam zones automatically detect people in cars and don't spam them?
-Siege
Do these spam zones automatically detect people in cars and don't spam them?
-Siege
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Silly thought - what about drivers? Do these spam zones automatically detect people in cars and don't spam them? -Siege |
Given the existence of Gridlink for decades, most people don't drive even if they own cars. Plus, spamzones require transmitters which can be stolen so I doubt they are placed out in the open except in CorpZones where the drones will shoot you if you stop spending money. The "public" right of way (which I interpret to mean "roads shared by multiple corps") will likely have regulations against such spam simply because it is a risk to the corp.
Personally I see the Ancients boosting a Spamtastic 6000, strapping it to the back of a bike and giving road rage a new meaning. Use a jammer weaker than the Spamtastic to kill Gridlink and bam, you've got comedy gold!
on the other hand, it means that you don't have to depend on the party mage to cast chaotic world anymore. just get the party decker, erm hacker, to do it instead.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 7 2005, 09:20 AM) | ||||
When you can hack, yes - it takes some time, though.
Cyberware can communicate with each other without using wireless. So if you get yourself an implanted commlink/datajack, there is no need even buying wireless-enabled ware. |
And don't forget the skinlink option of your commlink. The description explicitly states that skinlink communication cannot be intercepted or jammed.
Now, an attacking hacker needs to
- not fall for your decoy commlink in passive mode (can't make it too obvious)
- find your real, hidden commlink (you are running in hidden mode, aren't you?)
- hack your firewall
and they still won't be able to mess with your gear (cyber or otherwise).
Of course, they could still power down the commlink, or intercept/jam normal (wireless) communications.
Well, if he gets through your implanted commlink/real commlink on datajack, he can screw with your ware... especially nasty if you got cybereyes/ears.
(GitS-SAC: Laughing Man, anyone?)
So, Kids - always remember to get the best response available implanted: this limits your firewall... your databombs on implants are limited by grade.
(GitS-SAC: Laughing Man, anyone?)
So, Kids - always remember to get the best response available implanted: this limits your firewall... your databombs on implants are limited by grade.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Well, if he gets through your implanted commlink/real commlink on datajack, he can screw with your ware... especially nasty if you got cybereyes/ears. (GitS-SAC: Laughing Man, anyone?) |
I'd say that's a fair balance of risk vs. reward. Most runners are already pretty... sensitive, shall we say?... to anyone invading their personal space. If you're able to get that close without losing any limbs, more power to ya.
Here's how I figure the three modes break down, using modern wireless router terms:
Active mode - wireless radio is on; broadcast SSID is on; firewall is off
Passive mode - wireless radio is on; broadcast SSID is off; firewall is on
Hidden mode - wireless radio is off; broadcast SSID is off; firewall is on, router will still process hardwired connections (cyberware via DNI link, skinlink)
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| I'd say that's a fair balance of risk vs. reward. Most runners are already pretty... sensitive, shall we say?... to anyone invading their personal space. If you're able to get that close without losing any limbs, more power to ya. |
Well... he just has to be in wireless range of your and his commlink.
Of course, you can always tune down your signal rating...
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| Here's how I figure the three modes break down, using modern wireless router terms: Active mode - wireless radio is on; broadcast SSID is on; firewall is off Passive mode - wireless radio is on; broadcast SSID is off; firewall is on Hidden mode - wireless radio is off; broadcast SSID is off; firewall is on, router will still process hardwired connections (cyberware via DNI link, skinlink) |
Not quite... radio is always on in modes - switching of would be no mode.
Only hidden doesn't broadcast SSID, and active only means the personal firewall allows incoming per default.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| [QUOTE=Rotbart van Dainig,Sep 7 2005, 11:52 AM] Here's how I figure the three modes break down, using modern wireless router terms: Active mode - wireless radio is on; broadcast SSID is on; firewall is off Passive mode - wireless radio is on; broadcast SSID is off; firewall is on Hidden mode - wireless radio is off; broadcast SSID is off; firewall is on, router will still process hardwired connections (cyberware via DNI link, skinlink) |
I know I'd like my hidden Comm to at least be aware of nearby communication or the lack thereof. I think hidden turns the transceiver to a "receive" mode only and disables broadcasting as long as skinlink is possible between the configured devices. If you positively must have an RF link it steps the Signal down to the lowest level that still maintains a connection, complaining the whole time.
You should be able to do the intercept/decrypt trick when in Hidden mode though you won't be able to inject any commands without going active.
Yeah, my bad... since hidden is still capable of communicating with other nodes, I guess the radio isn't really turned off. My revised list then:
Active - radio=ON, SSID=ON, firewall=OFF
Passive - radio=ON, SSID=ON, firewall=ON
Hidden - radio=ON, SSID=OFF, firewall=ON
Offline - radio=OFF, SSID=OFF, firewall=ON (skinlink, DNI connection still works)
But that just prompts the question; according to the book, is there an Offline mode? Can you turn off the radio without turning the whole commlink off?
Active - radio=ON, SSID=ON, firewall=OFF
Passive - radio=ON, SSID=ON, firewall=ON
Hidden - radio=ON, SSID=OFF, firewall=ON
Offline - radio=OFF, SSID=OFF, firewall=ON (skinlink, DNI connection still works)
But that just prompts the question; according to the book, is there an Offline mode? Can you turn off the radio without turning the whole commlink off?
Sure - you can switch off wireless on any device... with more or less impact on its functionality, though.
Actually, this is even recommendend when B&E.
Actually, this is even recommendend when B&E.
From what I am hearing, there are two types of wireless going on here. (I don't have the book yet, so I am speculating)
1) PAN - Very short range, highly securable network for Matched Devices that know specifically about each other. Roughly equivalent to Bluetooth. I could imagine designing this protocol such that the devices could be put into a learning mode where they figure out each other's encryption codes and so they can make a very secure hard to spoof or penetrate local net. You could have a "Look Around" mode in which you could have a list of potential connections around you and choose the ones you want to connect into your PersonalNet. This would let you do things like control lights in a house or a soda machine.
2) The other part with the AR zones sounds more like a wireless Matrix connection, roughly equivalent to WiMAX, or 3G. I don't see why you would ever turn off your Firewall on this. Hacking this sounds more or less like being able to find a person's cell phone number while they are walking by and call them, or text message them. I'm sure it is possible to send text message spam, but they do that from the Internet at large and it gets sent to you.
1) PAN - Very short range, highly securable network for Matched Devices that know specifically about each other. Roughly equivalent to Bluetooth. I could imagine designing this protocol such that the devices could be put into a learning mode where they figure out each other's encryption codes and so they can make a very secure hard to spoof or penetrate local net. You could have a "Look Around" mode in which you could have a list of potential connections around you and choose the ones you want to connect into your PersonalNet. This would let you do things like control lights in a house or a soda machine.
2) The other part with the AR zones sounds more like a wireless Matrix connection, roughly equivalent to WiMAX, or 3G. I don't see why you would ever turn off your Firewall on this. Hacking this sounds more or less like being able to find a person's cell phone number while they are walking by and call them, or text message them. I'm sure it is possible to send text message spam, but they do that from the Internet at large and it gets sent to you.
| QUOTE (KeyMasterOfGozer) |
| 2) The other part with the AR zones sounds more like a wireless Matrix connection, roughly equivalent to WiMAX, or 3G. |
I think it's more like high-powered WiFi, with unsecured routers/relays planted roughly every 3-10 meters: inside stores, on lamp posts, attached to the umbrella of a rolling noodle cart, etc. The higher your commlink's signal, the further off-grid you can go before getting disconnected.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| Active - radio=ON, SSID=ON, firewall=OFF Passive - radio=ON, SSID=ON, firewall=ON Hidden - radio=ON, SSID=OFF, firewall=ON Offline - radio=OFF, SSID=OFF, firewall=ON (skinlink, DNI connection still works) |
i doubt that any mode turns your firewall all the way off, even if you're using the modern definition of "firewall" rather than SR4's expanded one. after all, if you want to hack a commlink that's in active mode, you still have to actually hack it, and your hacking attempts are still opposed by the target's firewall.
a better analogy would be settings for most IM programs. there's an option in most of them that lets you automatically accept or decline messages from people who aren't on your list. if you're going clubbing, you turn your PAN to active mode, which means that a) others can read your profile and see what you're into, and b) they can send you a message if they're interested and think they have a shot. if you're just out shopping and you're in a hurry, you set your PAN to passive. that way, you can still get calls from friends and family, but the creepy guy on the bus who thinks you have the most beautiful ankles can't stalk you electronically. hidden mode is probably unused by most people--they probably tell you to put your PAN in hidden mode if you're out late at night by yourself, to make it extra-hard for smart thugs to hack you.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| a better analogy would be settings for most IM programs. there's an option in most of them that lets you automatically accept or decline messages from people who aren't on your list. if you're going clubbing, you turn your PAN to active mode, which means that a) others can read your profile and see what you're into, and b) they can send you a message if they're interested and think they have a shot. if you're just out shopping and you're in a hurry, you set your PAN to passive. that way, you can still get calls from friends and family, but the creepy guy on the bus who thinks you have the most beautiful ankles can't stalk you electronically. hidden mode is probably unused by most people--they probably tell you to put your PAN in hidden mode if you're out late at night by yourself, to make it extra-hard for smart thugs to hack you. |
Having read further, you're probably right.
Active mode = "Send out a big Fat "I'm HERE" signal all the time, and accept connections from anyone"
Passive mode = "Send out the bare minimum signal required, Handshake if needed, and only accept connections from people on my buddy list"
hidden mode = Wireless send : off, Wireless receive : only from pre-determined devices (ie, mp3 player, Cyberware, headset, Cit-E-Map module)
Wireless disabled: effectivly shut down. Local router functions only, and then only by either hardlink, or possibly skin link.
off:
Active mode is like telling the world "i'm here" all the time. Passive mode is like saying you're off line, even though you're actually not.
hidden mode will get you in trouble in certain area's .. as apparently ou no longer have the right to anonymity.
Off, and probably Wireless disabled, will either land you in a heap of trouble, or have every "joe's electrical repair depot" drone following you, offering up joe's amazing Comlink repair service.
Dont worry folks. that's not paranoia your feeling. they really are out to get you.
<edit.> howcome cyberware STILL isnt in the spell checker? </edit>
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