A few suggestions, these are taken from my White Wolf Storyteller days (please don't flame me too mercilessly), but use the rules as a guideline so far as they support good storytelling. If you guys really want to go for high numbers of skills and stats, ignore the limit caps in your house games. Or do two versions of a character one for house games and one that stays within the "official" rules for tournaments and such. Or the one that sounds the most feasible (to me at least) make the player-characters work their asses off for every scrap of Karma they earn. In old-school World of Darkness games you had to bust your ass just to get three or four usable experience points, and being stingy as I was my players had to REALLY work for it. I'm talking about in-depth character interactions, truly clever thinking, and doing things that are truly memorable. When someone good and truly works for something it's that much more enjoyable when they get it. But if you take this approach, let the players know it well ahead of time. Also look at it from a real world standpoint, early in your career your first few weeks at a job are when you learn the most, after that your learning curve drops off drastically. So in game if a team constantly does snatch-and-grab or extractions to the point where it's second nature then they shouldn't get near the Karma award they would if they changed pace and went Big Game hunting for juggernauts, or did counter-drug merc ops in Amazonia. Basically what I'm saying is the Bruce Lee version of gaming, use what works for you and throw away the rest.

P.S.-I HATE MUNCHKIN GAMES!!!

so what do you do with the guy who starts off as a human with maxed out agility, maxed out longarms skill, muscle replacement three, exceptional agility, and the one for skills to get +7 (ie he is starting with the skill at 7 and the attribute at 10 with augmentation), and then 3 points of improved skill from adept powers in longarms.

this person is literally as good as they will ever get at using longarms. they are the pinnacle of human achievement in terms of the use of longarms. there will never be any improvement, no matter what they do, other than equipment improvements.

see, to me, that represents a problem right there. sure, they have other areas they can improve (and they likely sacrificed in those areas to be able to be so good at this one things). but they can never go higher... you can come up with some legendary guy, who is the best in the world... and your starting character is just as good as him. the end.

to me, that's much more of a problem than the fact that you eventually won't be able to improve (though that kinda bothers me too). this is much worse, because you immediately cannot improve. that's it... you've reached the limit. the end. might as well retire now, 'cause it isn't getting any better.

I dont really see a problem with that, other than it is a utterly boring character to play.. and thus I would not make one, but it is not a system fault that it can be done..

it's not a problem with the system that you can start off as the best in the world?

it's not a problem with the system that you can walk up to your Johnson and tell him/her "you won't find anyone better than me. anywhere. i am the most skilled being on the face of the planet.", and not be lying or exaggerating? and that doesn't bother you?

sure, it might not be the greatest/most unique character concept (i'm the best in the world, yippee!), but the fact that you can start off, without having done a single run, being the best in the world... that doesn't strike you as being a little off?

No it is most certainly not a problem, since the GM can say no to that if he feels it doesnt fit. Simple as that.. if the GM cant say no to a totally min maxed char that most of the group feels is bad then it isnt the system thats wrong..

Heck, in SR3 you could create a adept with a dice pool of 25(12 from combat pool) dice from start.. and have plenty of other skills.. I dont see the big problem with that..

if the GM has to say no, then it's obviously a problem... otherwise the GM wouldn't have to say no.

yes, it's a problem solvable by having a GM. but it is still a problem, and more specifically, a problem with the system. "The GM can fix it" does not make the problem not there, it makes the problem solvable by changing the system.

once again, i don't mind too much if they feel the need to put in a fixed limit. i do mind when that fixed limit happens to be the same as what you can start off with. that is a problem with the system, to me, and if a GM has to fix it, that just shows that there was a problem in the first place.

in other words, if you can do something, completely 100% within the rules, not even really having to so much as begin applying any pressure to any rule at all, let alone bending or breaking the rules via rules-lawyering, and no sane GM would allow it... then it shouldn't have been a rule in the first place.

Another thing for GMs to keep in mind is that if you have a character who is well and truly great then he should have a flaw that is just as horrific and crippling. In the previous example of the master sniper, how about using a master hand-to-hand specialist as his major nemesis to take away his greatest advantage and make him sweat a little. Remember the greatest heroes in literature and movies are not necessarily defined by their success but by their failings and enemies, and their deaths...

Doesn't every runner dream of his personal fan (club)?

Well, this isn't D&D. We don't need to start out as farmers who have trouble killing dog-sized rats. We start out with dangerous ordinance and with adequate preparation can (theoretically) slay dragons from Day One.

We're paramilitary operatives and talented street punks. If we have one schtick that we're really good at (sniping, healing, datatheft, whatever) then we have a marketable skill. We are desirable on a diverse team.

SR4's character generation does, in fact, allow you to make up a world-class specialist right out of the gate. You'll find, though, that your BP investment is better spent if you start out as well-rounded with only one or two things in which you're notably useful.

So don't overspecialize and then blame the system that you bumped your min-maxed head on the ceiling.

i fully agree that the build is not even remotely a very good build. that's not my point.

my point is that, without putting too much effort into the process, i maxed out a starting character at something. if i was to really put some effort into it, i could probably come up with an even better way of doing it... off the top of my head, a mystic adept with high resources to buy a sustaining focus for example. (although he would have to forgo either exceptional attribute or aptitude iirc). if you have enough resources left over, buy one for analyze object as well.

yes, you don't need to start out being barely able to handle rats, but you shouldn't start off as the best in the world either. that's just silly.

as was mentioned, many of the greatest athletes in the world are going to have a 7 attribute and a 7 skill in whatever it is. "i am a highly trained former soldier" is an ok starting point for a background. "i am the winner of the 2068 olympics" is not a very reasonable background, if you ask me.

I also remind that this is just the core book. Many more bells and whistles will doubtless be available in expansions.

At the highest-end levels of an augmented character, the cyberware and bioware you should aim for is not that which improves ability, but that which conveys new ability or innovative ability applications. With a fully attribute-enhanced cyberbody, reaction enhancers, and synaptic booster, you're likely to have more than 2 points of Essence left while being at the augmented maximum for physical attributes and initiative passes. With the karma that you're likely to earn while gathering the resources to purchase/upgrade the aformentioned 'ware, you're also pretty likely to have maximum skill in your focal skills/groups.

Given that, picking up move-by-wire or dermal sheathing is not going to get you anything that you don't already have. You're at the maximum and you've still got quite a bit of expansibility to go. What you're going to want to aim for are things that grant new abilities; better shooting in the dark, greater ability to ignore pain modifiers, capacity to go without breathing, ability to jump really far/run really fast, things of that sort. Augmentations that simply improve your existing abilities are a moot point pretty quickly for a cyborg in SR4.

Likewise, I'm hoping the developers realize this, and make the new/altered augmentations in the advanced 'ware book cater more to new abilities rather than enhancement. The augmentations in the core book pretty much cover enhancement as far as it can be covered, within the bounds of the rules.

I agree, WireKnight. While having bigger numbers is useful, having a wider array of tactical options is more interesting and finesseable.

That's why I usually end up playing the spellcasters of the group. Adaptability is tons more fun in the long term than just having a bigger stick to hit people with.

(Not that big sticks don't have their uses.)

I'm all for that, but when you are comparing thousands of years difference in training & experience, there had better damn well be a gap in skill.

When that PC has a millenia under his belt of playing with sharp pointy things, then bring him back and measure him up.

see, here's the thing... we're both on the side of making harlequin a heck of a lot better than the players' characters.

but the thing is, current rules don't support that that's even possible, let alone guaranteed, as it should be.

i've always disliked double standards. if you're gonna let everyone else break the rules, then you shouldn't have made it a rule in the first place.

if you don't want the players to be able to teleport, but want IEs and great dragons to be able to do it, that's fine... but IMO it's better represented by assigning such ridiculous drain to it that you would have to be a grade 50 intiate to teleport 10 meters than to just say you can't do it but other people can.

hmm yes, the edge factor...


TOTALLY off topic (and the real reason for this post):

does anyone hear the song "simple irresitable" every time the read Mr. Unpronouncable's name?

dunno... i don't really see them as being all that strong. or tough. or at least, not naturally. mind you once they get that force 10 increase attributes spell with 10 successes backing it up and quicken it, i'm sure that helps just a little... but as far as physically strong? nah. why bother punching something when you can look at it and makes it's innards abandon ship? why bother picking something up when you can just levitate it and not have to dirty your hands?

Considering that dragons and spirits break the skill cap rules, i see no reason whatsoever for IEs to stick to them...

where do spirits break the skill cap rules?

i could've swore that they have skills equal to their force... and so far as i can tell, in base rules at least, you can only have up to force 6 spirits. think it mentions that in a place or two. but anyways, that would have their skills max out at 6, which is within the cap.

now, dragons, on the other hand... that's a whole different matter.

regardless, IMO there shouldn't *be* any skill cap rules. but that's just my opinion.

'course, you would then have to houserule somewhere else to keep the non-finite skills from getting to be a problem...

They aren't. p179, 2nd column.

Page 164

Actually, that little blurb about Force only being from 1 to 6 might go a long way towards balancing Spirits out in SR4. I like it, and may very well keep it as a rule in my game. Thanks.

Unfortunately though, that same blurb also addresses Spells using the same 'limitation', and we know that Spells can exceed Force 6.

it also says elsewhere (for example, the reference hahnsoo gave) that it is not limited to 6.

for a more specific statement regarding limits, i believe there is one on page 62, iirc, which says it's only limited by skill/magic, time, and resources available.

so in terms of official rules, i have to admit they probably meant it to be unlimited.

besides, 24 reaction is clearly too low. i demand 48, minimum, dagnabbit!

Note how it says Metahuman Scale 1-6.

Trolls can have a Strength of 7+.

Elves can have a Charisma of 8.

Etc, etc, etc.

I think it's just bad word usage, really.

Yeah I know. It is purely wishful thinking, but I really want something in canon that limits the ungodly power of Spirits.

well, if you want to talk about the whole "metahuman scale" thing, then spirits have a minimum possible too

i mean, one way or another, they have a range of 6 numbers according to that quote, so you could have force 2-7 for example, or 3-9

no, i think overall, that was probably a leftover from a time when they decided magic should be just as limited as everything else.

Not really in the rules as yet, but I could see something like the spirit force being limited to 6 plus whatever positive modifiers of the location you're pulling it at. To me, it seems a little more right that you need to summon ...I dunno a supersaiyan spiritfu thingie at a power site, rather than just in the street. Unless...yknow, you're Ghostwalker or something