As far as the shotguns example that people are debating, I say that shotguns are like any other tool. They are good for some situations, but bad for others. The two biggest drawbacks to shotguns are that they have a comparatively short range, and that they tend to be very loud. They are good for short-range guerrilla combat in an urban or wooded setting, but in other situations you will either get plunked off at long range or draw enemy reinforcements to your position when you fire your weapon. It's not even the best option when looking only at damage. An Ares Alpha recoil-comped to the max can fire 3 bursts in full auto, as opposed to 2 shots or bursts from a shotgun, giving you an extra kill if you win the initiative. Not to mention area-effect weapons such as grenades, or heavy weapons or sniper rifles.
So like Toturi, I would choose option D. Have NPCs use shotguns when it is appropriate. Keep in mind that while gangers may not have Franchi Spas-22s or Ares Alphas, there is a lot of weaponry that is low cost and low Availability, but still effective. You might see gangers toting Ares Predator IIs, Sandler TMP submachine guns, Reminton 990 shotguns, or AK-97 assault rifles, for example.
I don't like the approach of "If you use it, every NPC will too, whether it makes sense for them to or not." Tailor adventures to the PCs, sure, but let the NPCs have the appropriate stats for what they are. Don't give the mall security guard a skill of rifles: 8 to make him challenging, and don't make the Tir Ghosts wusses so that the party has an even chance against them. That's not to say you can't toss an occasional ringer at them - maybe the mall security guard is a survivalist nut, or maybe the fearsome mob hitter is a coward with an overblown reputation. But everything around the PCs shouldn't get tougher at the same rate they do... rather, they should be moving on to more challenging types of opponents.
Full Version: Newbie GM questions
| QUOTE |
| It's not even the best option when looking only at damage. An Ares Alpha recoil-comped to the max can fire 3 bursts in full auto, as opposed to 2 shots or bursts from a shotgun, giving you an extra kill if you win the initiative. Not to mention area-effect weapons such as grenades, or heavy weapons or sniper rifles. |
I've bolded my points of disageement.
When people talk about shotguns being broken or overpowered, they're not talking about the damage code. They're talking about shot rounds, as outlined on page 117 of SR3.
Here's how it works: Let's say you're an ork drug dealer holed up inside a hotel with a shotgun, a bunch of drugs, and a SWAT team on the way. You wait at the end of a long hallway with your shotgun. You hear the SWAT team burst through the front door, sweeping room to room, closer and closer. A flash pak hits the ground in front of you, flashing distractingly. Then two guys whirl around the corner in full SWAT gear. You've got a skill of 5, a sawed-off(Cannon companion sawed-off, not core rules) Defiance T-250 loaded with shot rounds with its choke set to two, one RC from a shockpad, flare comp as a retinal mod, and balls of steel.
Everyone ties for surprise. One of them beats you on init and ends up dealing you 9 boxes of damage(Serious+Moderate). You're 16 meters away from the two guys (medium range, TN 5 base) with the flash pak blowing your vision(+2 TN). You roll an attack and throw five combat pool into it.
As the shot travels a total of eight range increments(16 meters), you get -8 TN and -8 power(1S now). Your TN of 10 is now a 2, so lets say that on your 10 dice you get eight successes. You're nailing a freakin' 8-meter wide area, so you completely blanket the hallway with shot and hit both of them. Neither opts to dodge. The soak TN is already 1 so their armor doesn't matter, you round up the damage code to 2S+8 successes.
Let's be nice to the SWAT guys and say they have a body of 6 and a combat pool of 8. They throw everything they have into soaking that shotgun blast, even using a karma to reroll all failures. They shrug off the shotgun blast.
Now you shoot them AGAIN. You're not as bad ass as they are, so your combat pool is only 6. You throw that last remaining die into the attack. You'll probably get five successes. To even have a chance to ignore your attack they need to roll ELEVEN SUCCESSES. They have a body of 6 and no combat pool and are thus incapable of staging down your attack without buying a bunch of dice with karma. They'll probably score five successes themselves and suck up a Serious wound each. They're not out of the fight, but each of them is now facing +3 TN from their six boxes of damage. You'll probably die when the rest of the team comes around the corner, but you've seriously wounded two SWAT team members.
----
Imagine if it had instead been an adept behind that shotgun or if the power of his gun hadn't been reduced to 2. Or if the defending partys had a body of four.
The insane rules for shotguns firing shot result in shotguns being weapons of mass destruction that can result in the shooter rolling against a TN of 2 no matter WHAT his modifiers are. With enough dice under his belt a shotgunner can easily roll attacks that are actually impossible for the defending characters to survive.
| QUOTE (Modesitt) |
| Imagine if it had instead been an adept behind that shotgun or if the power of his gun hadn't been reduced to 2. Or if the defending partys had a body of four. The insane rules for shotguns firing shot result in shotguns being weapons of mass destruction that can result in the shooter rolling against a TN of 2 no matter WHAT his modifiers are. With enough dice under his belt a shotgunner can easily roll attacks that are actually impossible for the defending characters to survive. |
Yes, but there is a way for the GM to totally screw up the shotgunner and it is perfectly canon too.
| QUOTE (p 117 SR3) |
| Award an additional dice to the target's Damage Resistance Test for every other target within the spread in front of the target. |
So that potted plant round here, the lightbulb there, the flashpack here, the ant there, the little lizard on the wall... Gee, let's just give a blanket 10 extra dice to soak, shall we?
And don't forget Gel Packs. Hmmm, 1S is it? Here I am wearing a normal clothing with Gel Pack, giving me Hardened 1/1. Hey shut up with the shotgun already, that tickles.
There is a built in safety valve in the shotgun rules. If the player chooses to abuse one part of the shotgun rules, the GM gets to abuse the other.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
Yes, but there is a way for the GM to totally screw up the shotgunner and it is perfectly canon too.
So that potted plant round here, the lightbulb there, the flashpack here, the ant there, the little lizard on the wall... Gee, let's just give a blanket 10 extra dice to soak, shall we? (...) There is a built in safety valve in the shotgun rules. If the player chooses to abuse one part of the shotgun rules, the GM gets to abuse the other. |
The idea that this is canon is... well, let's be kind, and say stretching it... but I don't feel like arguing over spirit vs. letter of the rules, so let's assume it is...
It still doesn't change the fact you're dealing with one bit of idiocy in the rules by using another rule just as crappy - and one that, no matter what you call it, feels like you're fucking with the player.
Instead of introducing more garbage into your game, it's much better to simply get rid of the source of the initial problem.
Remember, he is Canon. Personally I think a strict interpretation would center around the definition of "target", as by his (in my opinion) loose use of the term the soaker would get infinite soak dice, as there's nothing limiting the "in front of the target" to just those targets between the shooter and the target—there's the vast space behind the shooter to consider as well (or in whatever other direction the target is facing).
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Remember, he is Canon. Personally I think a strict interpretation would center around the definition of "target", as by his (in my opinion) loose use of the term the soaker would get infinite soak dice, as there's nothing limiting the "in front of the target" to just those targets between the shooter and the target—there's the vast space behind the shooter to consider as well (or in whatever other direction the target is facing). ~J |
My point was that it doesn't really matter if the shotguns rules are broken... They are, but they can be more broken in favor of the GM. And yes, it all depends on how the GM chooses to define "target", he might go for the more intuitive or the more abusive definations depending on whether the players are abusing the rule or not.
The GM should never resort to abusive rulings -- it is vastly more likely to lead to a contest of munchkinizing, and get away from an actual challenge of gameplay and roleplay.
Besides.. the GM doesn't need to, and the GM has to deal with more than just one munchkin. If the GM starts going with munchkin interpretations, then he spoils the game for everyone ELSE who is being reasonable. Crank the power up to challenge the munchkin and you'll probably kill the nonmunchkins.
The GM has loads of other ways to deal with munchkins -- GMs don't need to restrict themselves to the easy solutions of their own munchkinizing and bad guys on steroids.
Besides.. the GM doesn't need to, and the GM has to deal with more than just one munchkin. If the GM starts going with munchkin interpretations, then he spoils the game for everyone ELSE who is being reasonable. Crank the power up to challenge the munchkin and you'll probably kill the nonmunchkins.
The GM has loads of other ways to deal with munchkins -- GMs don't need to restrict themselves to the easy solutions of their own munchkinizing and bad guys on steroids.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| And don't forget Gel Packs. Hmmm, 1S is it? Here I am wearing a normal clothing with Gel Pack, giving me Hardened 1/1. ... If the player chooses to abuse one part of the shotgun rules, the GM gets to abuse the other. |
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| My point was that it doesn't really matter if the shotguns rules are broken... They are, but they can be more broken in favor of the GM. And yes, it all depends on how the GM chooses to define "target", he might go for the more intuitive or the more abusive definations depending on whether the players are abusing the rule or not. |
I'm not saying a word.
Not a single freakin' word.
I'm not going to comment at all on adversarial relationships between players and GMs.
I'm not going to comment at all on cooperative storytelling.
I'm not going to comment at all on the logic of countering abuse with abuse.
I'm not going to comment at all on what type of person likes to deny players rules legal and intent legal options.
I'm not going to comment at all on NPCs doing illogical things because it happens to counter a players actions.
I'm not going to comment at all on why you'd even suggest someone do something that you have personally described as 'abusive'.
I'm not going to comment at all on how Freud figures into the above.
Not one solitary comment.
I've never had any problems with shotguns using honest-to-god buckshot. As a matter of fact, I'm the only one in any game I've played in or GMed that used one, and I only used it for unarmored critters (shapeshifters) and 'swarms' (devil rats).
If you're having trouble with them, though, it shouldn't be that hard to impose a sanity check via houserules. Let's see...
Make it so all armor acts as Hardened Armor vs. buckshot. Not very unreasonable; anything that can provide genuine protection against a bullet is going to stop shot cold at long range.
Impose a limitation on how much target number reduction you can gain from the shot's spread. I think a max of -4 is fairly reasonable, and doesn't completely depower it.
Rule that, beyond a certain range, the damage of buckshot can no longer be staged up using successes. At that range and beyond, the listed damage rating is the maximum possible damage, period. Again, not unreasonable, since skill doesn't help much when your target's so far away that where you're aiming doesn't really matter. The only problem is this doesn't really stop people from nickle-and-diming their opponents to death with shotgun blasts that shouldn't even be able to hurt them.
If I was having a problem with it I'd probably go with the first solution. I don't think anyone I've ever played with would have a problem with it; as I said, no one really uses buckshot or flechette rounds, because we all play under the understanding they aren't supposed to do anything to armored targets.
If you're having trouble with them, though, it shouldn't be that hard to impose a sanity check via houserules. Let's see...
Make it so all armor acts as Hardened Armor vs. buckshot. Not very unreasonable; anything that can provide genuine protection against a bullet is going to stop shot cold at long range.
Impose a limitation on how much target number reduction you can gain from the shot's spread. I think a max of -4 is fairly reasonable, and doesn't completely depower it.
Rule that, beyond a certain range, the damage of buckshot can no longer be staged up using successes. At that range and beyond, the listed damage rating is the maximum possible damage, period. Again, not unreasonable, since skill doesn't help much when your target's so far away that where you're aiming doesn't really matter. The only problem is this doesn't really stop people from nickle-and-diming their opponents to death with shotgun blasts that shouldn't even be able to hurt them.
If I was having a problem with it I'd probably go with the first solution. I don't think anyone I've ever played with would have a problem with it; as I said, no one really uses buckshot or flechette rounds, because we all play under the understanding they aren't supposed to do anything to armored targets.
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| The GM should never resort to abusive rulings -- it is vastly more likely to lead to a contest of munchkinizing, and get away from an actual challenge of gameplay and roleplay. Besides.. the GM doesn't need to, and the GM has to deal with more than just one munchkin. If the GM starts going with munchkin interpretations, then he spoils the game for everyone ELSE who is being reasonable. Crank the power up to challenge the munchkin and you'll probably kill the nonmunchkins. The GM has loads of other ways to deal with munchkins -- GMs don't need to restrict themselves to the easy solutions of their own munchkinizing and bad guys on steroids. |
I was pointing out the literal rules-lawyer/legal approach to the problem, without resorting to house rules. Countering abuse with abuse might be a bad solution but that is one way of dealing with the problem.
As a GM, I have always told my players not to abuse the rules. Once to prove a point, okay. Again just to show off, maybe. Once we stop laughing or go WTF?!, the moment it stops being remotely funny, I will remind them that I have an entire game world to throw at them. Even if only 0.01% of the world NPC population decide to use the rules as the PCs have, they'd be sooo f**ked.
I think it's that I tend to rule bad "solutions" as not solutions at all -- I think they're far more likely to make the situation worse then deal with it.
You're quite right though -- the threat should be more than enough, it just opens up the can of worms that is "matching power levels" and the tales of the insanity of players crippling their characters so the bad guys get powered down.
It's just personal style and taste though.
You're quite right though -- the threat should be more than enough, it just opens up the can of worms that is "matching power levels" and the tales of the insanity of players crippling their characters so the bad guys get powered down.
It's just personal style and taste though.
| QUOTE (M.A.L.E-man) |
| 6) Manabolt. My players manabolt everything they see, hear or smell. Its their first, best and favourite spell. Its getting difficult to explain the Mafia goons with the Willpower of 5. Any ideas? |
'Nother quandry.
This less of a "did you take your gun with you?" type question , then a "How far does Etiquette go" type query.
A mage with Etiquette (Corp)= 4 and the rest of the PCs go to a meet in a corporate skyraker with a Mr Johnson. Another member of the group (the 'Face' Etiquette (Corp)= 6) takes the actual meeting, leaving the Mage, who has the Know skill 'Modern Art-2', in the receptionist office near some meeting rooms. (This is Japanacorp- maybe Renraku/ Mitsuhama/ etc) As a peice of 'colour' I have a group of execs meet as a committee to decide on the purchase of some new art for the building. My Mage decides to schmooze and rolls well on the Etiquette and on the Modern Art (low TN on that- the execs are artistically ignorant.) He passes himself off as an art expert and get invited to the meeting/cockail party. (The player is freaking- he thought this would be a wee joke, now he's in the spotlight.) He discourses on the artwork (gets 6 + 5), approves the price (pretending he's an independant 'consultant') But the comittee meeting ends. And they all want the player as a consultant. They shake hands, offer their business cards and expect one in return.
Heres the question: its a Japanacorp - would the PC realistically have business cards? If his Etiquette is that high, would his character have enough smarts/skill-experience to have multiple card types?
Basically I have a player who made some good rolls and backed himself into a corner. He *really* roleplayed it well, so I am inclined to be merciful (somehow) but in the grand scheme of things he pulled a pointless prank (kinda- his rolls were good)
This less of a "did you take your gun with you?" type question , then a "How far does Etiquette go" type query.
A mage with Etiquette (Corp)= 4 and the rest of the PCs go to a meet in a corporate skyraker with a Mr Johnson. Another member of the group (the 'Face' Etiquette (Corp)= 6) takes the actual meeting, leaving the Mage, who has the Know skill 'Modern Art-2', in the receptionist office near some meeting rooms. (This is Japanacorp- maybe Renraku/ Mitsuhama/ etc) As a peice of 'colour' I have a group of execs meet as a committee to decide on the purchase of some new art for the building. My Mage decides to schmooze and rolls well on the Etiquette and on the Modern Art (low TN on that- the execs are artistically ignorant.) He passes himself off as an art expert and get invited to the meeting/cockail party. (The player is freaking- he thought this would be a wee joke, now he's in the spotlight.) He discourses on the artwork (gets 6 + 5), approves the price (pretending he's an independant 'consultant') But the comittee meeting ends. And they all want the player as a consultant. They shake hands, offer their business cards and expect one in return.
Heres the question: its a Japanacorp - would the PC realistically have business cards? If his Etiquette is that high, would his character have enough smarts/skill-experience to have multiple card types?
Basically I have a player who made some good rolls and backed himself into a corner. He *really* roleplayed it well, so I am inclined to be merciful (somehow) but in the grand scheme of things he pulled a pointless prank (kinda- his rolls were good)
Japanacorp? I'd say roll it, TN 2 or 3. Business cards are everywhere in Japan, and with Japanacorps as common as they are in SR I find it hard to believe that this information would be unknown.
Maybe even let him have both personal and professional business cards if he gets three successes or something.
~J
Maybe even let him have both personal and professional business cards if he gets three successes or something.
~J
I would not require that the PC have business cards. I think with the introduction SIN and credsticks, business cards went the way of cash. But if you insist on business cards and if the PC does not have one, I would allow an Etiquette roll to deflect/negate the effects of not having a business card.
Or I would allow a substitution with business-sticks, like everyone swaps business-type credsticks and everyone whips out a pocket secretary and starts slotting credsticks, or something like that. This way it keeps in the futuristic atmosphere of the game. So if the PC shows them a big-shot platinum credstick, they would treat as a art celebrity or some such.
Or I would allow a substitution with business-sticks, like everyone swaps business-type credsticks and everyone whips out a pocket secretary and starts slotting credsticks, or something like that. This way it keeps in the futuristic atmosphere of the game. So if the PC shows them a big-shot platinum credstick, they would treat as a art celebrity or some such.
Great ideas.
My intention will be to play it as follows:
"You turn toward the art and, when approached for a fingerprint, signature or card, you shake your head and nod towards the painting, smiling with an artists fine regard for protocol. Some of the comitee are mildly insistent." <Make another Etiquette roll>
This, I think, rewards the player, and warns them that they need to be prepared for the possibility of the "fingerprint, signature or card" situation.
My intention will be to play it as follows:
"You turn toward the art and, when approached for a fingerprint, signature or card, you shake your head and nod towards the painting, smiling with an artists fine regard for protocol. Some of the comitee are mildly insistent." <Make another Etiquette roll>
This, I think, rewards the player, and warns them that they need to be prepared for the possibility of the "fingerprint, signature or card" situation.
Another question.
Trolls have thermographic vision. How do they watch tri-D?
Trolls have thermographic vision. How do they watch tri-D?
| QUOTE (M.A.L.E-man) |
| Trolls have thermographic vision. How do they watch tri-D? |
Same as dwarves. They both have all the "normal" visual range, just the ability to see a bit more on one end. If the show is thermographically accurate, it looks natural. Otherwise, the colors that are present would look a little exaggerated and the colors that aren't would be conspicuously missing.
Ah, forget NERPS... we have the new invention "Troll-o-vision"*! A modified Trid that also presents heat information, so that Trolls and Dwarves (and folks with thermographic cybereyes) don't lose any sense of immersion from watching their favorite Trids! Also available in simsense, called "SimHeat"!
* Not responsible for unexplained fires.
* Not responsible for unexplained fires.
It wouldn't need to actually produce any heat, just light in the infrared range that would match that created by ambient temperature. I'm no optics expert, but I think that would be easy enough to accomplish; much easier than designing a working trideo, anyway.
| QUOTE (Lucifer) |
| It wouldn't need to actually produce any heat, just light in the infrared range that would match that created by ambient temperature. I'm no optics expert, but I think that would be easy enough to accomplish; much easier than designing a working trideo, anyway. |
But it would be more humorous if it actually produced heat (and the resulting unexplained fires)... Canyonero!!
Hey.
1a) Do Insect Spirits (Flesh Form) have the natural Immunity To Normal weapons (pg 188 SR3) as other spirits?
2a) Do all True Form Insect spirits have the Materialization power? (I compared them in MITS and, for example) the Termite Queen is apparently the only one that can Materialize of all the termites.
3a) Would Vampires, as Undead, be harder to detect with Thermo vision?
Thanks folks.
1a) Do Insect Spirits (Flesh Form) have the natural Immunity To Normal weapons (pg 188 SR3) as other spirits?
2a) Do all True Form Insect spirits have the Materialization power? (I compared them in MITS and, for example) the Termite Queen is apparently the only one that can Materialize of all the termites.
3a) Would Vampires, as Undead, be harder to detect with Thermo vision?
Thanks folks.
1a) No.
3a) Vampires aren't undead.
~J
3a) Vampires aren't undead.
~J
| QUOTE (M.A.L.E-man) |
| 1a) Do Insect Spirits (Flesh Form) have the natural Immunity To Normal weapons (pg 188 SR3) as other spirits? 2a) Do all True Form Insect spirits have the Materialization power? (I compared them in MITS and, for example) the Termite Queen is apparently the only one that can Materialize of all the termites. |
1a. Flesh form bugs look like hybrid creatures with both insect and human characteristics. How human they are depends on how many successes they get in their opposed willpower vs. force test (am I remembering this right?). If a particular bug rolls very poorly, and ends up looking very bug-like, I often give them armor bonuses for chitin. But this would just be normal armor, not hardened, no immunity.
2a. All true forms have the Materialization power.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.