Oh, sure - just, that wasn't the point.
Your persona can hold as many Agents as the commlink you are currently using... if you want more, you have to switch commlinks.
Full Version: Commlink Sanity
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| If that were true, you'd never have to worry about Spam Zones, since your active list would be loaded up in seconds. There is nothing suggesting that you have to be subscribed to a persona or icon to communicate with it-- just nodes, agents, and drones. |
Well, at least you've twigged to the communication=subscribing thing finally. You, indeed, don't subscribe to personas; you subscribe to the node that the persona is running on. You don't subscribe to an icon, because icons are just representations, so I'm sorry if my phrasing confused you; you do, however, subscribe to the program or node that the icon represents, or you can't communicate with it.
No, you don't have to be subscribed to an icon in order to recive information from it; spam zones are boosts in the run-of-the-mill Matrix traffic that goes on all around you, and that your Analyze program is there to filter. You do have to subscribe to the node or program represented by the icon in order to establish two-way communication with it.
| QUOTE |
The catch is, agents are autonomous enough to follow along without communicating. |
Yes, when acting autonomously. No, autonomous action is not coordination. That requires two-way communication, and thus subscription.
| QUOTE | ||
No. What it does is this: it prevents you from using Track and Analyze, and it interferes with Firewalls. If your icon looks like a twenty-ton death machine, you're not going to look like an authorized user, unless you're playing BOLO XXXI. |
And yet, Analyze is how agents determine the existence of anything that's not subscribed to them, because doing so requires a Matrix perception test. Your icon may, visually, look like whatever you like, but no one can find your icon without a perception test. P. 217, "as a rule, anything running a Stealth program is considered to be hiding". Running Stealth doesn't change what your icon looks like, but it does change how an agent perceives it, and without beating its Stealth that agent will assume it's a normal piece of Matrix traffic.
| QUOTE | ||
First of all, Spoof only affects Drones, Agents, and datatrails. |
All right, fair enough. I didn't have my book in front of me, and forgot that there were two different methods for agents/drones and other traffic. What you actually do is perform an Electronic Warfare + Sniffer test, and then change the traffic betwen nodes with an Edit command (p. 225).
| QUOTE |
| No, you don't have to be subscribed to an icon in order to recive information from it; spam zones are boosts in the run-of-the-mill Matrix traffic that goes on all around you, and that your Analyze program is there to filter. You do have to subscribe to the node or program represented by the icon in order to establish two-way communicatoin with it. |
The thing is, the agents are already in the node with you. By your own argument, you don't need to be subscribed to them, since you're already subscribed to the same node that they are.
| QUOTE |
| Yes, when acting autonomously. No, autonomous action is not coordination. |
Why not? If an agent in your persona can be ordered to coordinate with another icon, one you're not subscribed to, it should be able to coordinate with any icon. For example, a decker can't subscribe to a Sprite under ordinary circumstances; but he can order an agent to cooperate with one, or to take orders from one.
| QUOTE |
| And yet, Analyze is how agents determine the existence of anything that's not subscribed to them, because doing so requires a Matrix perception test. Your icon may, visually, look like whatever you like, but no one can find your icon without a perception test. |
Untrue. You only need to make a Matrix perception test "If you want to specifically examine an arrow, dot, or other Matrix object... take a Simple Action to Observe in Detail." You can easily see any icon, but you can't examine it without a perception test, which is what Stealth interferes with. Since agents can be ordered to take orders from any icon, it doesn't need to observe it in detail. Granted, this means you can potentially trick the Agent Army by swapping out your icon to look like, say, Mr. Smith
, but this was never meant as an invincible trick, just an abuseable one. | QUOTE |
| All right, fair enough. I didn't have my book in front of me, and forgot that there were two different methods for agents/drones and other traffic. What you actually do is perform an Electronic Warfare + Sniffer test, and then change the traffic betwen nodes with an Edit command (p. 225). |
Basically correct, but with only one minor detail. What you actually do is use EW + Sniffer to make an Intercept Wireless Signal test, then you can roll to Edit the subscription list. Unfortunately, with only two slots on the list, the moment you do that the entire daisy-chain crashes, and whoever you're hacking instantly knows something's up.
Between the need to make an EW+ Scan (15) test, and the fact that attempting to hack in from anywhere but the front gate will alert the user, this trick is certainly going to be effective in slowing down an incoming decker. It's not invincible, but nothing is.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| The thing is, the agents are already in the node with you. By your own argument, you don't need to be subscribed to them, since you're already subscribed to the same node that they are. |
Agents "in the node with you" are those loaded on your persona. Agents on another commlink that you're not currently using are not anywhere "with you", and need to be subscribed to communicate.
| QUOTE | ||
Why not? If an agent in your persona can be ordered to coordinate with another icon, one you're not subscribed to, it should be able to coordinate with any icon. For example, a decker can't subscribe to a Sprite under ordinary circumstances; but he can order an agent to cooperate with one, or to take orders from one. |
A hacker can absolutely subscribe to a Sprite. A Sprite has all Matrix attributes, and it acts as a program; it has a subscriber list just like any agent.
| QUOTE | ||
Why not? |
Coordination requires communication, under any circumstances. Even two people lifting something need to communicate, be it as simple as "You ready?" "Yeah" "Okay, on three".
No, this isn't in the rules, any more than "Things tend to fall downwards" is in there, because it shouldn't need to be spelled out for you.
| QUOTE | ||
Untrue. You only need to make a Matrix perception test "If you want to specifically examine an arrow, dot, or other Matrix object... take a Simple Action to Observe in Detail." |
Those things are what icons are. An icon is just the representation of something. Interestingly, you cut out the parenthetical where it explains what "other Matrix objects are", i.e., "users, programs, IC, nodes, files, etc.". You, the user, have an icon, but to find it requires a Matrix perception test, even if you're not running stealth, unless you are subscribed to things, and thus one of the "nodes/users [they] are interacting with".
Even without all of this, you've blown off the part where anything running a Stealth program is assumed to be hiding.
| QUOTE | ||
Basically correct, but with only one minor detail. What you actually do is use EW + Sniffer to make an Intercept Wireless Signal test, then you can roll to Edit the subscription list. Unfortunately, with only two slots on the list, the moment you do that the entire daisy-chain crashes, and whoever you're hacking instantly knows something's up. |
The subsciber list can have an infinite number of nodes/users/programs on it. You can only be actively subscribed to System * 2 at a time, but all that you have to do is do your sniffer test, find the commlink, and do your Edit when the user isn't actively performing Matrix actions. At that point, you've got at least a round before they realize that they can't get out through their little chain any more, and repairing the damage is as simple as cracking into the commlink and then dropping your own active subscription to the outer node.
| QUOTE (Azathfeld) |
| Agents "in the node with you" are those loaded on your persona. Agents on another commlink that you're not currently using are not anywhere "with you", and need to be subscribed to communicate. |
I have to agree here, but you don't have to subscribe each and every agent, just that group of agents if you have more of them.
Still, all you have to do otherwise is to switch node(commlink) with a free action, instruct them, and pop back into your other node(commlink).
| QUOTE (Azathfeld) |
| Coordination requires communication, under any circumstances. Even two people lifting something need to communicate, be it as simple as "You ready?" "Yeah" "Okay, on three". No, this isn't in the rules, any more than "Things tend to fall downwards" is in there, because it shouldn't need to be spelled out for you. |
Excuse me? And why wouldn't agents be able to be instructed to communicate with each other and work together to accomplish a task, it is all about giving them the correct string of orders. Rating 4 agents aren't dumb animals, they do tend to take orders a bit on the literal side though.
If I tell a group of agents something along the line of:
Agent 1-4 will form a group and Hack the (X) system, Agent 5-6 will guard against attacks. Agent 1-2 will search for encryption and databombs and defuse. Agent 3-4 will Exploit and Edit Subscription list when Agent 1-2 are done.
Ok, a bit rough but that should not be very hard.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) | ||
I have to agree here, but you don't have to subscribe each and every agent, just that group of agents if you have more of them. Still, all you have to do otherwise is to switch node(commlink) with a free action, instruct them, and pop back into your other node(commlink). |
No, you have to switch personas, which is not as simple as changing matrix nodes. You have to physically remove the jack or trodes from the commlink you are using and plug them into the commlink to which the agents are subscribed.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) | ||
Excuse me? And why wouldn't agents be able to be instructed to communicate with each other and work together to accomplish a task, it is all about giving them the correct string of orders. Rating 4 agents aren't dumb animals, they do tend to take orders a bit on the literal side though. |
I'm not saying that agents can't coordinate; clearly they can. Cain is suggesting that they can do it without being subscribed to one another, and thus without being able to communicate.
| QUOTE |
| Agents "in the node with you" are those loaded on your persona. Agents on another commlink that you're not currently using are not anywhere "with you", and need to be subscribed to communicate. |
You're both accessing the same node in VR mode. Therefore, you're both "in the same node".
| QUOTE |
| Those things are what icons are. An icon is just the representation of something. Interestingly, you cut out the parenthetical where it explains what "other Matrix objects are", i.e., "users, programs, IC, nodes, files, etc.". You, the user, have an icon, but to find it requires a Matrix perception test, even if you're not running stealth, unless you are subscribed to things, and thus one of the "nodes/users [they] are interacting with". Even without all of this, you've blown off the part where anything running a Stealth program is assumed to be hiding. |
You most definitely do not need to make a Matrix perception test to find an icon. You need one to Observe it in Detail. A "hidden" icon is not invisible. Otherwise, you'd need to make a matrix perception test to see your own programs, with or without stealth. You couldn't even see your own icon.
"Seeing" is not the same thing as "Observing". You don't need to make a perception test to see anything that's obvious, and your own icon and programs should be pretty obvious.
| QUOTE |
| Coordination requires communication, under any circumstances. Even two people lifting something need to communicate, be it as simple as "You ready?" "Yeah" "Okay, on three". |
In a hospital, you can coordinate without speaking. If people know what they're doing, they don't need to even watch one another-- in an ER, one person might go for the oxygen, another starts applying direct pressure, a third readies the equipment, and so on. Properly trained, people can coordinate their actions automaticall. Agents may not be as good at this as humans are, but they're not totally dumb, either.
| QUOTE |
| You can only be actively subscribed to System * 2 at a time, but all that you have to do is do your sniffer test, find the commlink, and do your Edit when the user isn't actively performing Matrix actions. At that point, you've got at least a round before they realize that they can't get out through their little chain any more, and repairing the damage is as simple as cracking into the commlink and then dropping your own active subscription to the outer node. |
First of all, a threshold 15 test isn't ever as easy as you're trying to make it sound. Second, all you've done is altered the subscription list on the next-to-last tier. You'd have to hack your way back through the entire daisy-chain in order to Edit the outer node. Third, it's a Free Action to Change Linked Device Mode, which can be taken at any point in an initiative pass, even during someone else's action. You don't have "at least a round", you might not even get an action.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| In a hospital, you can coordinate without speaking. If people know what they're doing, they don't need to even watch one another-- in an ER, one person might go for the oxygen, another starts applying direct pressure, a third readies the equipment, and so on. Properly trained, people can coordinate their actions automaticall. |
There's still a degree of communication occurring. If not, I hope I never have to visit that hypothetical hospital.
| QUOTE | ||
You're both accessing the same node in VR mode. Therefore, you're both "in the same node". |
Even if you're operating on the same node, the agent has been loaded on a node that is not your persona. Any time that you do that, those agents are independent. They're not "with" you, and they are either subscribed to you or cannot be communicated with.
| QUOTE |
You most definitely do not need to make a Matrix perception test to find an icon. You need one to Observe it in Detail. A "hidden" icon is not invisible. Otherwise, you'd need to make a matrix perception test to see your own programs, with or without stealth. You couldn't even see your own icon. |
P. 217, "Matrix perception is usually limited to to a very narrow subset of things, such as the icons of nodes users you are interacting with, menus, dots, arrows, and any display features you call up". That's for AR; if it's not a menu, dot, arrow or display feature, and you're not interacting with it, you don't see it without using actively hunting it out. If it's one of your own icons, it's part of the subset of things covered under normal matrix perception.
If it's not AR you're in, the p. 229 covers VR perception, and the last paragraph says "you filter out the unneccessary background process in a system reducing the sensory clutter. Other icons may be hidden--they are "there", but you won't see them, either because they are inactive or because your programs are not good enough to detect them." (emphasis mine)
Then we're back at p. 217, "As a rule, anything running a Stealth program is assumed to be hiding".
| QUOTE | ||
In a hospital, you can coordinate without speaking. If people know what they're doing, they don't need to even watch one another-- in an ER, one person might go for the oxygen, another starts applying direct pressure, a third readies the equipment, and so on. Properly trained, people can coordinate their actions automaticall. Agents may not be as good at this as humans are, but they're not totally dumb, either. |
I would seriously doubt that there's every any time in an ER when no one is communicating, and everyone is acting independently, but I'm not an ER doctor. Communication does not require speech. Communication in the matrix, even non-verbal communication, does require subscription.
However, as you mention, agents aren't anything like highly trained EMTs and doctors. They may not be dumb, but there's a world of difference between "not dumb" and "expert medical professional".
| QUOTE |
First of all, a threshold 15 test isn't ever as easy as you're trying to make it sound. |
If they're in hidden mode it takes a 15 to detect them, but we weren't talking about detecting the node in the first place. Hidden mode nodes are absolutely hard to find and hard to hack, and I wouldn't argue otherwise. That's not any easier or harder under the daisy chain scheme than under any other. Intercepting Wireless Signals, once you know the node is there, is threshold 3.
| QUOTE |
| Second, all you've done is altered the subscription list on the next-to-last tier. You'd have to hack your way back through the entire daisy-chain in order to Edit the outer node. |
The Jopp was talking about hiding his commlink behind the daisy chain in order to protect it, not putting it out in front. The second-to-last node, in his scheme, is the one right before the commlink, and is where you need to be in order to hack the comm.
| QUOTE |
| Third, it's a Free Action to Change Linked Device Mode, which can be taken at any point in an initiative pass, even during someone else's action. You don't have "at least a round", you might not even get an action. |
There's nothing in the "Intercept signal - Edit traffic - Subscribe to gateway node - Hack commlink" chain that will alert the comm user that something is wrong unless the hacking attempt itself is detected. Intercepting wireless signals is totally undetectable, and nodes don't throw up an alert every time an authorized subscriber accesses them. If the hacking is detected, then you're no better or worse off than you are when hacking anyone else's commlink. I'm not suggesting that The Jopp's scheme is easily penetrated, just that it's not signiciantly less vulnerable to hackers than a standard setup in hidden mode.
| QUOTE (Azathfeld) |
| The Jopp was talking about hiding his commlink behind the daisy chain in order to protect it, not putting it out in front. The second-to-last node, in his scheme, is the one right before the commlink, and is where you need to be in order to hack the comm. |
Uhm, yes, and I would also have turned off the wireless and use skinlink on the gear. Unless you are in direct range of the commlinks signal you have to go through each and every one of those little nodes until you get to the actual commlink. This works best when going full VR but works almost equally well as long as you either have a low signal on the commlink or is to far away from them to intercept your signal.
| QUOTE |
| Even if you're operating on the same node, the agent has been loaded on a node that is not your persona. Any time that you do that, those agents are independent. They're not "with" you, and they are either subscribed to you or cannot be communicated with. |
Either/Or fallacy. They can certainly react to what another icon is doing, otherwise they wouldn't be able to participate in cybercombat... or many other matrix actions, either. If those reactions are preprogrammed, then they don't need to communicate.
If we have two drones fighting one another, they're reacting to one another, but they're not "communicating", as you're using the word-- and they're most definitely not subscribed to one another. Agents have the exact same Pilot program, and the exact same capacities.
| QUOTE |
| P. 217, "Matrix perception is usually limited to to a very narrow subset of things, such as the icons of nodes users you are interacting with, menus, dots, arrows, and any display features you call up". |
Next sentence: "If you wish to specifically examine an arrow, dot, or other Matrix object-- users, programs, IC, nodes, files, etc.-- take a Simple Action to Observe in Detail (p 136)." That's a new paragraph, under the heading of "Matrix Perception Tests". So, you only need to make a Matrix Perception Test when you intend to Observe in Detail.
| QUOTE |
| I would seriously doubt that there's every any time in an ER when no one is communicating, and everyone is acting independently, but I'm not an ER doctor. Communication does not require speech. Communication in the matrix, even non-verbal communication, does require subscription. |
So, in order to be attacked by the IC, you have to be subscribed to it? Attacking is a very violent form of communication, after all. What about the invading Crack Sprite? Opposing deckers?
You only need to subscribe to nodes, agents, and drones (p 212); anything else you can more or less communicate with freely. Agents, however, don't need to subscribe to each other to launch a preprogrammed routine. If you know what you're doing, you can even bake in the coordination beforehand.
For example: you can order a bunch of drones to fly in a given formation. Even if they're not subscribed to one another, their own sensors can decipher the distance and speed of the other drones, and alter their own course to compensate. Pilot programs are not stupid; they can see other things, and react accordingly.
| QUOTE |
| If they're in hidden mode it takes a 15 to detect them, but we weren't talking about detecting the node in the first place. Hidden mode nodes are absolutely hard to find and hard to hack, and I wouldn't argue otherwise. That's not any easier or harder under the daisy chain scheme than under any other. Intercepting Wireless Signals, once you know the node is there, is threshold 3. |
Actually, the daisy-chain is what makes it harder. If you're looking for a single Hidden node, and you know (or strongly suspect) that one is there, then the threshold is only 4. And seeing a guy with wireless-enabled gear active is usually a good sign that there's an active hidden node out there. However, in the daisy chain scheme, he can't just scan for one hidden node; he'll end up having to scan for them in general, forcing a Threshold 15 test. And once he's done that, he then needs to pick out the hidden node he wants, which is another Threshold 15 test. After all that, he gets to make the Intercept test.
| QUOTE |
| There's nothing in the "Intercept signal - Edit traffic - Subscribe to gateway node - Hack commlink" chain that will alert the comm user that something is wrong unless the hacking attempt itself is detected. Intercepting wireless signals is totally undetectable, and nodes don't throw up an alert every time an authorized subscriber accesses them. |
No, but what would happen is this: since the items can only be actively subscribed to two things at a time, the instant you force it to switch from the previous link to your commlink, the rest of the chain drops off. Whoever's running the tiered network will immediately notice that he no longer has access to 9 of his devices. In order for you to hack the commlink, you'd need to force the next-to-last link to be actively subscibed to you-- and doing that means it can no longer be actively subscribed to anything else.
The truly nasty idea would be to do the multi-commlink thing again: a public commlink on the outside of the chain, and your shadow commlink on the inside. You'd keep the functionality of having an active comm, while getting many of the benefits of being in Hidden mode.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| And once he's done that, he then needs to pick out the hidden node he wants, which is another Threshold 15 test. After all that, he gets to make the Intercept test. |
Nope.
After the first Extended Test with Threshold 15+, he has identified all Hidden Nodes within Range and picked the ones he was looking for.
Interception is possible immediatly.
| QUOTE | ||
Either/Or fallacy. They can certainly react to what another icon is doing, otherwise they wouldn't be able to participate in cybercombat... or many other matrix actions, either. If those reactions are preprogrammed, then they don't need to communicate. |
They can do all of those things, if they are subscribed to you. If they are not, they can react to what's happening to you (edit: provided they can even see you), but can't coordinate.
| QUOTE |
If we have two drones fighting one another, they're reacting to one another, but they're not "communicating", as you're using the word-- and they're most definitely not subscribed to one another. Agents have the exact same Pilot program, and the exact same capacities. |
They do indeed, which is why on p. 238, when it says "If instructed to do so, drones can subscribe to each other and share information, allowing them to coordinate attacks and other actions," that applies to agents as well. They can coordinate, proivded that they subscribed to one another. Subscription allows coordination.
| QUOTE | ||
Next sentence: "If you wish to specifically examine an arrow, dot, or other Matrix object-- users, programs, IC, nodes, files, etc.-- take a Simple Action to Observe in Detail (p 136)." That's a new paragraph, under the heading of "Matrix Perception Tests". So, you only need to make a Matrix Perception Test when you intend to Observe in Detail. |
Specifically examining something is how you call it out of the normal bulk of matrix traffic. In AR, you just aren't seeing most things because doing so would be overwhelming. You see the normal run of things that you are interacting with, and everything else is a blur unless you Observe it in Detail.
And anything running a Stealth program is hidden.
| QUOTE | ||
So, in order to be attacked by the IC, you have to be subscribed to it? Attacking is a very violent form of communication, after all. What about the invading Crack Sprite? Opposing deckers? |
Things can attack you, or Spoof at you, or any of number of forms of one-way information bursts without subcription, but to "share information" requires subscription. IC that attacks you has to find your (hopefully hidden) icon and then, barring subscription, has a number of very limited ways to interact with it. If it's not one of the few matrix actions that can be done without subcription, it requires subscription. IC doesn't have to subcribe to you to attack, but it does have to subscribe to other IC if it wants to coordinate.
Rothbart's addressed the next bit already.
| QUOTE | ||
No, but what would happen is this: since the items can only be actively subscribed to two things at a time, the instant you force it to switch from the previous link to your commlink, the rest of the chain drops off. Whoever's running the tiered network will immediately notice that he no longer has access to 9 of his devices. |
Why, exactly, would he instantly notice he doesn't have that access? If he's not currently using those devices this round, it's not going to be noticeable.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) | ||
Uhm, yes, and I would also have turned off the wireless and use skinlink on the gear. Unless you are in direct range of the commlinks signal you have to go through each and every one of those little nodes until you get to the actual commlink. This works best when going full VR but works almost equally well as long as you either have a low signal on the commlink or is to far away from them to intercept your signal. |
That's all fine, but it's really just excessive paranoia. By the time that you've skinlinked your network, you're unhackable enough to make it not worth anyone's time to try. However, a skinlinked network set up in a daisy chain with minimal subscriber lists is probably the least hackable network that allows you some wireless functionality, so it's a good design from that standpoint.
Huh?
All subscription does is make it so the device doesn't accept communication from anything other than the subscibed devices. The default mode is "I can talk to anything".
All subscription does is make it so the device doesn't accept communication from anything other than the subscibed devices. The default mode is "I can talk to anything".
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Huh? All subscription does is make it so the device doesn't accept communication from anything other than the subscibed devices. The default mode is "I can talk to anything". |
No, actually, it's not. Your persona maintains a subscription list of things that are allowed to talk with you, and can only accept active subscriptions = System * 2. You can, indeed, talk with anything, but only System * 2 things at a time.
No... you can talk with everything, unless you're running a subscription list. You're basically trading security for flexibility.
| QUOTE |
| They do indeed, which is why on p. 238, when it says "If instructed to do so, drones can subscribe to each other and share information, allowing them to coordinate attacks and other actions," that applies to agents as well. They can coordinate, proivded that they subscribed to one another. Subscription allows coordination. |
Again, imagine a bunch of drones that have been ordered to fly in formation with one another. Even if they're not subscibed to one another, they're perfectly capable of coordinating their relative positions, speed, and other reactions, to maintain the formation. Their own sensors will tell them what actions need to be taken to get into formation, and their own Pilot programs will correct as needed.
| QUOTE |
| Specifically examining something is how you call it out of the normal bulk of matrix traffic. |
If that were true, you'd need to make a Matrix Perception test to see anything at all. You wouldn't even be able to see things that aren't hidden, and are blatantly obvious. Luckily, the Observe in Detail simple action description says that it's not required to notice anything obvious. So, since "Specifically examining" = "Observe in Detail", you do not need to make a test to see anything obvious. And obvious happens to include icons for your own programs.
| QUOTE |
| Things can attack you, or Spoof at you, or any of number of forms of one-way information bursts without subcription, but to "share information" requires subscription. |
A sufficient number of one-way bursts going back and forth equals "shared information".
| QUOTE |
| Why, exactly, would he instantly notice he doesn't have that access? If he's not currently using those devices this round, it's not going to be noticeable. |
Because, the "outer" node is a live commlink, connecting him to the matrix and AR. All his AR information would be channeled through the chain, and displayed at the end, but the commlink at the start would be handling the interface. Having his entire wireless connection drop away would be pretty damn obvious, in my mind.
| QUOTE | ||
Again, imagine a bunch of drones that have been ordered to fly in formation with one another. |
And yet, flying in formation is not a coordinated test. If you want the drones to supply one another with die roll bonuses in one coordinated action, you must allow them to subscribe to one another, just as it explicitly says in the book.
| QUOTE | ||
If that were true, you'd need to make a Matrix Perception test to see anything at all. You wouldn't even be able to see things that aren't hidden, and are blatantly obvious. |
No, you need a matrix perception test to see anything that's not part of "normal matrix perception", which is laid out explicitly in the paragraph immediately previous.
| QUOTE | ||
Because, the "outer" node is a live commlink, connecting him to the matrix and AR. |
Not in The Jopp's scheme, which is what we were talking about.
| QUOTE (Azathfeld) |
| Not in The Jopp's scheme, which is what we were talking about. |
Yes it is, and it is not. It is an active "NODE" that isn't wireless. The entire hacking and connection procedure is done through the primary commlink but I use the clothes/gear as nodes before I go on further into the "real" matrix.
It IS possible to ignore the daisy chain of nodes that I have but that would mean that you would need to be within the signal distance of the primary commlink, and for a hacker it would be real easy.
Think of it this way. I access my commlink, and then I skip through my ten nodes of imaginary security and THEN i log on the normal matrix and start going through more nodes that exists in seattle for example and finally I end up in the Node in California Free State.
Now, anyone wanting to hack me must do one of the following. 1: detect wireless signal.
If they want the wireless signal they must be in seattle within 4 kilometers so that one is out.
2: Backtrack through the nodes back to me. In the end they will reach my nodes of imaginary security and realize that they would have to hack them, and that would buy me time.
Just because you have nodes to access does not mean they have to be wireless, just your commlink.
There is a danger though, I DO imagine that my hacking chain could falter if someone made a crash OS command on any of those nodes, but I'm not sure, any opinion on that because one CAN crash an OS.
| QUOTE | ||
Yes it is, and it is not. It is an active "NODE" that isn't wireless. The entire hacking and connection procedure is done through the primary commlink but I use the clothes/gear as nodes before I go on further into the "real" matrix. It IS possible to ignore the daisy chain of nodes that I have but that would mean that you would need to be within the signal distance of the primary commlink, and for a hacker it would be real easy. Think of it this way. I access my commlink, and then I skip through my ten nodes of imaginary security and THEN i log on the normal matrix and start going through more nodes that exists in seattle for example and finally I end up in the Node in California Free State. Now, anyone wanting to hack me must do one of the following. 1: detect wireless signal. If they want the wireless signal they must be in seattle within 4 kilometers so that one is out. 2: Backtrack through the nodes back to me. In the end they will reach my nodes of imaginary security and realize that they would have to hack them, and that would buy me time. Just because you have nodes to access does not mean they have to be wireless, just your commlink. |
In that case, you have a very good security setup; I wasn't thinking about hacking nodes in other cities through your daisy-chain. It won't always be helpful--without being there physically, certain aspects of most corp nets probably won't be available to you--but it is very secure.
| QUOTE |
There is a danger though, I DO imagine that my hacking chain could falter if someone made a crash OS command on any of those nodes, but I'm not sure, any opinion on that because one CAN crash an OS. |
Yeah, that would definitely disconnect you while the node rebooted, although a reboot on a System 1 device only takes one round. Also, anyone who does hack your outer node must necessarily have altered the subscriber list, and thus broken your outside access, although you can change the next level's subscriber list and head outward from there.
| QUOTE |
| And yet, flying in formation is not a coordinated test. If you want the drones to supply one another with die roll bonuses in one coordinated action, you must allow them to subscribe to one another, just as it explicitly says in the book. |
There is nothing under "Teamwork Tests" that says you must be subscribed to one another.
Here's a more explicit example, but you're going to have to forgive my lack of cryptoanalysis knowledge. I'm perfectly aware that my example is going to be very crude, but I don't know enough to give a more sophisticated example.
Assume that you're wanting to brute-force a password. A standard password can only start with 1 of 36 possible characters: A-Z and/or 0-9. You load up 36 agents with Exploit programs, and lay out some commands. The first agent is to start with all the password combinations that begin with A, the second is to start with the ones that begin with B, etc., etc. The moment one agent cracks it, it's then programmed to open the gate; all the agents are programmed to enter once the gate is open. You can then subscribe to the agent, and get the passcodes from it.
| QUOTE |
| No, you need a matrix perception test to see anything that's not part of "normal matrix perception", which is laid out explicitly in the paragraph immediately previous. |
We're going around and around on this one. The bottom line is, the actual rule referenced is "Observe in Detail". The fluff section is what you're referring to. As always, it's up to a GM to decide what's obvious and what's not, but think of it this way: under your argument, you'd need to make a Matrix Perception test to see the Matrix site for a store you just walked into, since you haven't yet added it to your cubscription list.
| QUOTE |
| In that case, you have a very good security setup; I wasn't thinking about hacking nodes in other cities through your daisy-chain. It won't always be helpful--without being there physically, certain aspects of most corp nets probably won't be available to you--but it is very secure. |
Actually, he *could* be there physically; it's just his signal that's been rerouted through Abu Dhabi. Since IIRC a trace has to go through each node, you've definitely slowed it down a great deal.
I was thinking about modifying this setup for non-deckers, though. You can have a shadow node, that skinlinks your smartgun and other shadow gear to your image link. You then use the daisy chain to hook up to a public commlink, broadcasting a fake ID. You "look" normal on the outside, but you've got all the benefits of keeping your shadow gear active. Another use for this would be for tactical communications during a run-- if someone hacks your comm frequencies, they won't necessarily be able to easily backwalk the signal and start hacking your gear.
| QUOTE | ||
There is nothing under "Teamwork Tests" that says you must be subscribed to one another. |
Even if it were not obvious that you need communication to coordinate, p. 238 flat-out states that it's mutual subscription which allows drones to coordinate.
| QUOTE | ||
We're going around and around on this one. The bottom line is, the actual rule referenced is "Observe in Detail". The fluff section is what you're referring to. As always, it's up to a GM to decide what's obvious and what's not, but think of it this way: under your argument, you'd need to make a Matrix Perception test to see the Matrix site for a store you just walked into, since you haven't yet added it to your cubscription list. |
No, under my argument, you'd need a perception test to see other users online at a store you just walked into, and the programs that they're running, and their agents, and the agents of people down the street browsing the store, and any security hackers who are hanging out in the area, and anything else that's not part of normal matrix perception. Normal matrix peception, as I've already stated, includes "menus, dots, arrows, and any display features you call up".
Edit: Also, your agents can't see each other, anyway.
| QUOTE | ||
Actually, he *could* be there physically; it's just his signal that's been rerouted through Abu Dhabi. Since IIRC a trace has to go through each node, you've definitely slowed it down a great deal. |
A trace is the same no matter where the route goes, because physical distance is meaningless in the matrix. You just need to beat the threshold of 10, and you identify the originating node and its physical location, barring a redirect.
| QUOTE |
| Even if it were not obvious that you need communication to coordinate, p. 238 flat-out states that it's mutual subscription which allows drones to coordinate. |
They "can" subscibe to one another, but they don't *have* to. You can still send them to do coordinated preprogrammed tasks. In fact, the sentence right above the one you're referring to says: "Alternately, a rigger can choose to issue orders to a drone and then unsubscibe it and trust its dogbrain to carry out the orders." You can order two drone to cooperate, and allow their pilot programs to carry it out. There is absolutely nothing suggesting that Pilots cannot work on teamwork tests without subscription, and a fair amount that suggests they can.
Try this one on for size. An agent can't subscibe to a matahuman without a cranial commlink or a datajack, since there's nothing to connect to. However, an autodoc-- a specialized agent-- can assist with medical treatment, with or without subscription. It can coordinate actions alongside a medic, without having to link up.
| QUOTE |
| No, under my argument, you'd need a perception test to see other users online at a store you just walked into, and the programs that they're running, and their agents, and the agents of people down the street browsing the store, and any security hackers who are hanging out in the area, and anything else that's not part of normal matrix perception. Normal matrix peception, as I've already stated, includes "menus, dots, arrows, and any display features you call up". |
You left "nodes" off that list. So, the node for the store you're entering, assuming that you're not subscribed to it, is totally invisible without making a Matrix Perception test? Even though it's icon is flashing great big neon signs screaming "SALE! SALE! SALE!" at you?
The point is, the agents can not only see each other's icons to begin with, they're also packing the exact same copy of the exact same Stealth program. That makes things much easier-- they can be programmed to look for the specific telltales that program leaves behind. They can see each other just fine.
| QUOTE |
| A trace is the same no matter where the route goes, because physical distance is meaningless in the matrix. You just need to beat the threshold of 10, and you identify the originating node and its physical location, barring a redirect. |
You're right, I was thinking that the trip to Abu Dhabi was a redirect.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| They "can" subscibe to one another, but they don't *have* to. You can still send them to do coordinated preprogrammed tasks. |
"Drones can subscribe to each other and share data, allowing them to coordinate attacks and other actions." p.238
| QUOTE |
In fact, the sentence right above the one you're referring to says: "Alternately, a rigger can choose to issue orders to a drone and then unsubscibe it and trust its dogbrain to carry out the orders." |
Yes, the rigger is perfect capable of trusting the drone to carry out its orders without being subscribed to the rigger himself. In fact, the rigger is perfectly capable of having drones coordinate with each other if they're not subscribed to him. However, to coordinate, they must subscribe to one another, because subscription is what allows coordination.
| QUOTE |
| Try this one on for size. An agent can't subscibe to a matahuman without a cranial commlink or a datajack, since there's nothing to connect to. However, an autodoc-- a specialized agent-- can assist with medical treatment, with or without subscription. It can coordinate actions alongside a medic, without having to link up. |
First of all, medkits and autodocs don't coordinate with a player, they assist by adding their device rating directly to the die pool. It's not a teamwork test, it's a flat bonus as it is with any other piece of equipment. You use the character's attribute and the medkit's rating. (p. 244)
Second, an autodoc is a drone, not an agent.
Third, it doesn't take a "cranial commlink or a datajack" to subscribe to a metahuman. It just takes a commlink. Anyone with a commlink has a matrix presence, and a persona.
Finally, why do you think this use of a drone wouldn't require subscription? The medic is likely doing so with just his commlink, and not necessarily a datajack, but any time that you give a drone an order you need to subscribe to it, per p. 238.
| QUOTE | ||
You left "nodes" off that list. So, the node for the store you're entering, assuming that you're not subscribed to it, is totally invisible without making a Matrix Perception test? Even though it's icon is flashing great big neon signs screaming "SALE! SALE! SALE!" at you? |
The node itself is not visible. The node's icon is not flashing SALE!, it's in the corner processing commands. The node is throwing out arrows and dots, and those are visible, but the node's own icon is very different from its AR objects.
| QUOTE |
| The point is, the agents can not only see each other's icons to begin with, they're also packing the exact same copy of the exact same Stealth program. That makes things much easier-- |
No, it doesn't.
| QUOTE |
| they can be programmed to look for the specific telltales that program leaves behind. They can see each other just fine. |
If you want to houserule that agents can be told to pick up "telltales" of the Stealth program that they're running, that's fine--for your game.
| QUOTE | ||
You're right, I was thinking that the trip to Abu Dhabi was a redirect. |
It works just fine as that, but it doesn't make The Jopp's scheme any less hackable than anyone running in hidden mode with a Spoofing action.
| QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 21 2006, 03:41 AM) |
| The point is, the agents can not only see each other's icons to begin with, they're also packing the exact same copy of the exact same Stealth program. That makes things much easier-- they can be programmed to look for the specific telltales that program leaves behind. They can see each other just fine. |
If that were the case then I'd like to host a filesharing site with a free copy of Stealth:6 available to everyone.
The Stealth program does not work like the Concealment power of spirits.
| QUOTE |
| Yes, the rigger is perfect capable of trusting the drone to carry out its orders without being subscribed to the rigger himself. In fact, the rigger is perfectly capable of having drones coordinate with each other if they're not subscribed to him. However, to coordinate, they must subscribe to one another, because subscription is what allows coordination. |
What you're suggesting is that it's impossible for two drones to be ordered to cooperate, unless they've been subscribed to one another, regardless of how good their Pilot programs are. That just doesn't work-- otherwise, Pilots couldn't even react to one another without subscription.
| QUOTE |
| Second, an autodoc is a drone, not an agent. |
My bad; but both have a Pilot program. A Pilot can obviously cooperate with a metahuman, and without subscription.
| QUOTE |
| Third, it doesn't take a "cranial commlink or a datajack" to subscribe to a metahuman. It just takes a commlink. Anyone with a commlink has a matrix presence, and a persona. Finally, why do you think this use of a drone wouldn't require subscription? The medic is likely doing so with just his commlink, and not necessarily a datajack, but any time that you give a drone an order you need to subscribe to it, per p. 238. |
First, because an EMT needs both hands to do his work. Unless you've got a datajack, you're not going to have a hand free to operate a smartwheel or keyboard. And going full simsense is obviously out of the question. You also don't want to make your medical equipment totally dependant on another piece of equipment, since that doubles your chances of catastrophic equipment failure.
Second, medkits and autodocs are designed to work with anyone at anytime, in emergency conditions. If a person has lost his commlink-- not unreasonable in an emergency-- it still needs to be able to do its job. I mean, picture it: you're having a heart attack, but your friend can't use the AED to save your life, because he forgot his cellphone in the bathroom when he heard you collapse.
| QUOTE |
| The node itself is not visible. The node's icon is not flashing SALE!, it's in the corner processing commands. The node is throwing out arrows and dots, and those are visible, but the node's own icon is very different from its AR objects. |
Ahem. Page 217:
| QUOTE |
| When you access a node, you do not "go there", but you see (or otherwise percieve) an icon of that node "projected" in your vision. |
You most definitely see the node. In other words, icons are perfectly obvious, and anything that's obvious doesn't require a Perception test. You need Analyze to Observe in Detail, but that's not necessary to simply notice it in the first place, and Stealth doesn't help you there. If your icon is acting stupidly, there's no rating of Stealth program high enough to help you.
In a similar vein, agents can be programmed to follow other identical icons, even if they're running Stealth. You might be able to fool them by taking a free action to Swap Icons and play simon says with them; but they can definitely see each other, simply because they know to look for an icon that looks like X and is doing Y.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| First, because an EMT needs both hands to do his work. Unless you've got a datajack, you're not going to have a hand free to operate a smartwheel or keyboard. And going full simsense is obviously out of the question. You also don't want to make your medical equipment totally dependant on another piece of equipment, since that doubles your chances of catastrophic equipment failure. |
Touchscreen? Voice interface? Buttons?
| QUOTE | ||
What you're suggesting is that it's impossible for two drones to be ordered to cooperate, unless they've been subscribed to one another, regardless of how good their Pilot programs are. That just doesn't work-- otherwise, Pilots couldn't even react to one another without subscription. |
Drones can't share information without being subscribed. They can't coordinate without sharing information. "Reacting to one another" is not the same thing as coordinating with one another.
| QUOTE | ||
My bad; but both have a Pilot program. A Pilot can obviously cooperate with a metahuman, |
Yes.
| QUOTE |
and without subscription. |
No. To give commands to a drone, you have to subscribe to it, however briefly.
| QUOTE | ||
First, because an EMT needs both hands to do his work. Unless you've got a datajack, you're not going to have a hand free to operate a smartwheel or keyboard. |
It doesn't take a hand to issue a command through a commlink, even a non-cybered comm, or to subscribe to something through one. Whenever you make a phone call on a comm, you've subscribed to someone and they've subscribed to you. Comms can pass vocal information as well as textual, but only to nodes and programs that have subscribed to them. Any EMT with an autodoc drone is going to arrive on the scene already subscribed to it.
| QUOTE |
| Second, medkits and autodocs are designed to work with anyone at anytime, in emergency conditions. |
They do, as simple tools. Go back to page 244. Anyone can use an autodoc or a medkit, as a tool, and gain a bonus equal to its rating just like any other tool. That's not coordination.
| QUOTE | ||||
Ahem. Page 217:
|
That's when you access a node. You were talking about walking into a store. You specifically indicated that you hadn't accessed the node, because you wanted to make an argument outside of the subscription rules. When you access a store's node, you subscribe to it, and a node that you've accessed is explicitly in the list of normal AR matrix perception. It is a "node/user you are interacting with".
| QUOTE |
| In a similar vein, agents can be programmed to follow other identical icons, even if they're running Stealth. |
You can't see icons running stealth. They're hiding.
| QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 21 2006, 10:39 AM) |
| Touchscreen? Voice interface? Buttons? |
According to page 318, a standard commlink has a touchscreen and voice interface. Touchscreen = Electronic Buttons, so the answer is yes to all three.
| QUOTE |
| Drones can't share information without being subscribed. They can't coordinate without sharing information. |
We already established that drones can fly in formation, which is a coordinated task, without subscription. It's just up to their individual Pilot ratings, which may or may not be smart enough to figure it out on its own.
| QUOTE |
| Comms can pass vocal information as well as textual, but only to nodes and programs that have subscribed to them. Any EMT with an autodoc drone is going to arrive on the scene already subscribed to it. |
In an emergency situation, you don't want to rely on voice exclusively. In fact, you definitely don't want a computer that might overreact if you say a swear word. If a procedure is complicated enough, you might not have time to describe it to an autodoc-- it has to react alongside of you.
| QUOTE |
| That's when you access a node. You were talking about walking into a store. You specifically indicated that you hadn't accessed the node, because you wanted to make an argument outside of the subscription rules. |
When you walk into a store, you're walking into it's primary AR zone, loaded with its adverts and broadcating tags everywhere. You're saying that without subscribing to it or making a Matrix perception test, you can't see any of it, even though it's broadcasting a humongous icon right in front of you. Basically, your argument leads to this: if you can't see a node, you can't access it; but if you can't access it, you can't see it.
| QUOTE |
| You can't see icons running stealth. |
Okay, let me get this straight. You've got a decker running stealth who's screaming at the top of his virtual lungs, using Edit to spraypaint his name all over the place, and is attacking your agent... and you can't see him at all, because he's got Stealth 1.
No matter what level of Stealth program you have, acting stupidly makes you very obvious. Stealth does not equal "super-ninja matrix power"; your actions still show up.
"ah @#$% ME!"
"Etending Latex Probe."
"Etending Latex Probe."
| QUOTE | ||
We already established that drones can fly in formation, |
Yes, they can.
| QUOTE |
| which is a coordinated task |
No, it's not, in the sense that it's not a Teamwork Test to fly in formation.
Even so, while I'm willing to concede that drones may well be able to fly in formation without communicating, I'm not sure that's the case. Certainly, human pilots, flying in formation, rarely break communication with one another.
| QUOTE | ||
In an emergency situation, you don't want to rely on voice exclusively. In fact, you definitely don't want a computer that might overreact if you say a swear word. |
Pilot programs aren't dumb. They know enough to distinguish an order from a stray comment. Piloted drones can coordinate with you through any of a number of means of communication, but not without communication and not without subscribing. If you don't want to coordinate with the autodoc, it operates like a medkit, whih does not require subscription. If you leave the autodoc to its own devices, then that doesn't require you to stay subscribed.
| QUOTE | ||
When you walk into a store, you're walking into it's primary AR zone, loaded with its adverts and broadcating tags everywhere. |
"menus, dots, arrows and any display features you call up".
| QUOTE | ||
Okay, let me get this straight. You've got a decker running stealth who's screaming at the top of his virtual lungs, using Edit to spraypaint his name all over the place, and is attacking your agent... and you can't see him at all, because he's got Stealth 1. |
Depends. How good is your Analyze program?
| QUOTE |
No matter what level of Stealth program you have, acting stupidly makes you very obvious. Stealth does not equal "super-ninja matrix power"; your actions still show up. |
Your actions do show up. Your icon does not. Per p. 229, you don't see hidden icons, unless your programs are good enough to detect them.
Let's make this simple.
I have pointed out in the rules where it says that subscription is required for communication within the matrix.
I have pointed out where subscription is required to give commands to drones.
I have pointed out where it says that icons which are using Stealth are hidden to you.
I have pointed out where it says that drones are required to subscribe to one another in order to coordinate and share information.
Any one of these things is enough to debunk your Army of Agents theory of coordinated hacking. If you can find a point in the rules that casts doubt on any of these points, let alone earlier relevant holes in your idea, then we can continue this discussion. If you can't do that, then by SR4's rules, your idea simply doesn't work.
| QUOTE |
| Pilot programs aren't dumb. They know enough to distinguish an order from a stray comment. Piloted drones can coordinate with you through any of a number of means of communication, but not without communication and not without subscribing. If you don't want to coordinate with the autodoc, it operates like a medkit, whih does not require subscription. If you leave the autodoc to its own devices, then that doesn't require you to stay subscribed. |
Certain emergency tasks, like CPR, require coordination without time to communicate. For example, both you and the autodoc can't be performing chest compressions at the same time. One person simply has to react to the other; if you see someone starting chest compressions, you get ready to ventilate. That;s just part of the training of two-person CPR; an autodoc wouldn't need training, but it would have programming, which would do the same thing.
When you're performing two-person CPR, you don't stop to say: "I'm done with the compressions, start breathing now", nor do you say:"I've given him two breaths, restart compressions", or even: "We've gone through four cycles, let's stop and check for pulse and respiration". Each person watches the other, and knows his role from there. A medkit and autodoc is supposed to "rival trained paramedics"; they need to be able to coordinate a treatment based on what the other person is doing, without being instructed. And trust me, if you've ever been trained to perform two-person CPR, you'd know what a help it is to have a second person-- this is a very clear example of a Teamwork test, because the other person helps you out immensely.
| QUOTE |
| "menus, dots, arrows and any display features you call up". |
But by your argument, you can't call it up, because you can't see it. You wouldn't even be able to see the "virtual landscape" referenced on page 229, without making a successful Matrix Perception test.
In the Hacking without Programs thread, we're discussing what happens with Joe Average, who has no Computer skill and no Analyze program. Strictly speaking, he wouldn't be able to make a Matrix perception test at all, since his dice pool would be zero. That means he'd never be able to see any icons at all, so he can't interact with them. However, page 206 makes it perfectly clear that people without the skils of Computer and Data Search can interact with the Matrix, with no difficulty at all. So, somehow he's got to be able to see things; he might not be able to examine things closely, but he's got to be able to see what's obvious.
As for the rule: under the Matrix Perception test rules, it says you spend an action to Observe in Detail. Under Observe in Detail, it says you don't need to spend an action to see what's obvious. Therefore, you don't need a Matrix Perception test to see what's obvious.
| QUOTE |
| Your actions do show up. Your icon does not. Per p. 229, you don't see hidden icons, unless your programs are good enough to detect them. |
Okay, so you can go around with your PAN in active mode, and be totally undetectable if you're running a Stealth program? I don't think so. Stupidity is still stupidity, and no program can help them. Going into a high-class establishment with a sexually-explicit icon and broacasting in active mode is going to get you noticed, Stealth or no Stealth.
See, what you're saying amounts to this: if you get into a cybercombat with some IC, the rest of the node's defenses can't see you unless they waste an action for a Perception test. It can't jump you the moment you do something; it has to wait until you do it, then make a Perception test, then it can act. That jacks Stealth up from a useful utility to a gods-powerful one; you're guaranteed at least one action before the security can respond.
| QUOTE |
| Any one of these things is enough to debunk your Army of Agents theory of coordinated hacking. |
All right, fine. Try this: nowhere does it say that each and every agent/drone has to be subscribed to each and every other drone in order to coordinate actions. So, you could network your active subscriptions between agents; this way, no single agen't subscription list is near the max, but they're still "sharing information" in your book. That easily allows an Army of Agents, which can break any system.
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
All right, fine. Try this: nowhere does it say that each and every agent/drone has to be subscribed to each and every other drone in order to coordinate actions. So, you could network your active subscriptions between agents; this way, no single agen't subscription list is near the max, but they're still "sharing information" in your book. That easily allows an Army of Agents, which can break any system. |
You could certainly use a pile of agents, with some agents acting as relay points, to coordinate very slow actions. (Edit: The node only actually gets one test against the actual intruder, so this sentence was mistaken.) It would then net you one access exploit, which you'd presumably use for yourself, but it wouldn't let your agents in, except any operating on your persona. There are times that it would be useful, such as breaking down that one monolithic node.
For anything faster, such as combat or hacking on the fly, it would prove too ungainly. Each new order would have to be passed down the chain, requiring a Simple Action at each step, and then new info would have to be passed up, delaying everything far too long to be useful. Those agents could still act on their own initiative, of course (although only if they'd got their own access IDs and gotten onto the node on their own).
Ok, my take on the discussion when it comes to issuing commands.
1: Subscription
It clearly says for DRONES that they need to be subscribed in order to receive orders from their controlling persona – And it clearly says that agents and drones can only receive commands from their controlling persona. On the other hand, it doesn’t say that agents have to be subscribed. The main reason could be because agents are loaded unto ones persona while drones are a separate entity on its own node – the drone body.
This makes it fairly simple. Drones MUST be subscribed in order to receive any orders. Agents must be subscribed ONLY if they are on a separate node. In the case of several commlinks the commanding persona just have to make a free action and pop over to the other commlink to give their order.
If the agents are uploaded on the node the hacker is currently hacking inside and not on his commlink they would still be within the same node since that is the node in which the hackers persona is active in – and would thus not have to be subscribed.
2: Giving Commands
One command can be given to multiple agents/drones at once - one is not forced to give one command to each agent/drone at a time. In the case of separate nodes one could give separate commands to each subscribed agent or group of agents. The command would not have to be daisy chained down a line of agents, all will receive the command at once.
3: Combined arms
As long as you give the agents comprehensive enough orders they could probably build the Taj Mahal for you, as long as the orders are clearly written – this is represented by COMMAND program. If I have several agents with different roles to fill you would just have to give the group a more complex command, either taking a little longer or forcing the hacker to get a certain amount of successes depending on the complexity of the order.
Yes, they WOULD be able to work together in a group task.
4: Invisibility / Stealth Issue.
A bit silly really. Ok, so your agents have stealth, fun isn’t it. Well, making the rules more complex is just bogging down gameplay. A user can see his own programs, it would be stupid if the agents you have uploaded can’t be seen by their own user, or even worse, they cannot see you.
Think about it. You upload a group of drones on a node you hacked - then you leave. Two hours later you return. The order you had given them was to hunt for intruders and attack them. Now, YOU use the backdoor you hacked earlier and re-enter the node, with stealth program active not to be detected by the local node security.
This gives us a problem. Your Agents have stealth, analyze and combat program, and so do you. With the logic Azathfeld uses this will happen.
The agents will start hunting with Analyze to find those under stealth because that’s what people use who wants to avoid detection. They will find two things: You, and the other agents.
The ensuing battle between you and your own agents kicking each others ass would probably have the security hacker howling with glee.
1: Hackers can see their own uploaded agents
2: Agents can see agents owned/initialized by their own persona
3: Agents would recognize their owners persona
4: stealth hides OTHER peoples icons, not your own.
There, simple enough.
More of me – the Mr.Smith tactic
Yea, loads of agents can be very useful, but only to a point, and it will be expensive since you need more than one commlink to be useful and when someone is going to the extreme with 3-4+ commlinks then it will become expensive and them GM might have to change tactic on the hacking issue.
For my personal use with the hacker I PLAN to play I will have 2 commlinks for hacking and 1 civilian. The plan is to use the second one as a massive firewall, nothing more. Having 4 IC programs and 5 Agents will ensure that no-one is getting inside undetected.
Swarming a node with agents will work a few times at best, and they must have a lot of response for the agents to really be effective.
1: Subscription
It clearly says for DRONES that they need to be subscribed in order to receive orders from their controlling persona – And it clearly says that agents and drones can only receive commands from their controlling persona. On the other hand, it doesn’t say that agents have to be subscribed. The main reason could be because agents are loaded unto ones persona while drones are a separate entity on its own node – the drone body.
This makes it fairly simple. Drones MUST be subscribed in order to receive any orders. Agents must be subscribed ONLY if they are on a separate node. In the case of several commlinks the commanding persona just have to make a free action and pop over to the other commlink to give their order.
If the agents are uploaded on the node the hacker is currently hacking inside and not on his commlink they would still be within the same node since that is the node in which the hackers persona is active in – and would thus not have to be subscribed.
2: Giving Commands
One command can be given to multiple agents/drones at once - one is not forced to give one command to each agent/drone at a time. In the case of separate nodes one could give separate commands to each subscribed agent or group of agents. The command would not have to be daisy chained down a line of agents, all will receive the command at once.
3: Combined arms
As long as you give the agents comprehensive enough orders they could probably build the Taj Mahal for you, as long as the orders are clearly written – this is represented by COMMAND program. If I have several agents with different roles to fill you would just have to give the group a more complex command, either taking a little longer or forcing the hacker to get a certain amount of successes depending on the complexity of the order.
Yes, they WOULD be able to work together in a group task.
4: Invisibility / Stealth Issue.
A bit silly really. Ok, so your agents have stealth, fun isn’t it. Well, making the rules more complex is just bogging down gameplay. A user can see his own programs, it would be stupid if the agents you have uploaded can’t be seen by their own user, or even worse, they cannot see you.
Think about it. You upload a group of drones on a node you hacked - then you leave. Two hours later you return. The order you had given them was to hunt for intruders and attack them. Now, YOU use the backdoor you hacked earlier and re-enter the node, with stealth program active not to be detected by the local node security.
This gives us a problem. Your Agents have stealth, analyze and combat program, and so do you. With the logic Azathfeld uses this will happen.
The agents will start hunting with Analyze to find those under stealth because that’s what people use who wants to avoid detection. They will find two things: You, and the other agents.
The ensuing battle between you and your own agents kicking each others ass would probably have the security hacker howling with glee.
1: Hackers can see their own uploaded agents
2: Agents can see agents owned/initialized by their own persona
3: Agents would recognize their owners persona
4: stealth hides OTHER peoples icons, not your own.
There, simple enough.
More of me – the Mr.Smith tactic
Yea, loads of agents can be very useful, but only to a point, and it will be expensive since you need more than one commlink to be useful and when someone is going to the extreme with 3-4+ commlinks then it will become expensive and them GM might have to change tactic on the hacking issue.
For my personal use with the hacker I PLAN to play I will have 2 commlinks for hacking and 1 civilian. The plan is to use the second one as a massive firewall, nothing more. Having 4 IC programs and 5 Agents will ensure that no-one is getting inside undetected.
Swarming a node with agents will work a few times at best, and they must have a lot of response for the agents to really be effective.
| QUOTE |
| For anything faster, such as combat or hacking on the fly, it would prove too ungainly. Each new order would have to be passed down the chain, requiring a Simple Action at each step, and then new info would have to be passed up, delaying everything far too long to be useful. |
Except you wouldn't need to spend an action sending orders. You'd preprogram them: at signal x, run pattern y; at signal z, do action j, and so on. Also, you don't need to use a Simple Action to communicate during a Teamwork test-- the whole point of it is that you're all working in concert already. If what you're saying is true, you could never make a Teamwork test, because every time you started to go, you'd have to stop to pass information.
| QUOTE |
| Yea, loads of agents can be very useful, but only to a point, and it will be expensive since you need more than one commlink to be useful and when someone is going to the extreme with 3-4+ commlinks then it will become expensive and them GM might have to change tactic on the hacking issue. |
That's what started this whole debate. Buying 10 commlinks is cheap enough as is; the problem is that you can then upgrade them to the max for dirt cheap as well, and allowing this trick to work. After all, you only need to buy a program once; so you'd only need one System 6 and one Agent 4 to pull this trick off. You can then run a massive hacking assault on a node and end up with so many dice, you can *buy* enough successes to get admin access, no matter how good the Firewall is. Once you've got that, you can easily designate your army of Mr. Smiths as authorized icons, and off you go. You'd own the system, and the only way to counter you would be with another army of agents.
| QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 22 2006, 09:43 AM) |
| That's what started this whole debate. Buying 10 commlinks is cheap enough as is; the problem is that you can then upgrade them to the max for dirt cheap as well, and allowing this trick to work. After all, you only need to buy a program once; so you'd only need one System 6 and one Agent 4 to pull this trick off. You can then run a massive hacking assault on a node and end up with so many dice, you can *buy* enough successes to get admin access, no matter how good the Firewall is. Once you've got that, you can easily designate your army of Mr. Smiths as authorized icons, and off you go. You'd own the system, and the only way to counter you would be with another army of agents. |
Well, as a GM i would never allow successes for CRITICAL dice rolls. Any kind of simple dice roll (not having a great impact on the game as a whole) would be allowed. And remember, you can only buy hits IF THE GM ALLOWS IT.
A few points to remember with the response issue. You cannot begin the game with more than response 5. For every X number of programs run you lower response by one. So running 10 agents would lower your response from 5 to 3, thus lowering the program rating to 3 and making agents roll a maximum of 6D6.
Upgrading a commlink isn’t dirst cheap since you must upgrade level for level. If you have a 1/1 commlink you would have to buy 2/2 then 3/3 etc and at most you save a few thousand per commlink.
Having multiple commlinks in that amounts we are talking about 10K per commlink, not counting other factors (like how odd the guy would look lugging around 10 kilograms of commlinks in a ruggsack. The expenses of having 10 commlinks makes it a bit useless, especially if you want programs for 100K as well.
Signal
How hard will it be to trace 10 signal sources? Or how suspicious will it be with 10 hidden signals?
Tracking
10 commlinks with 4 agents on each one. Now, initiating a trace there would give a lot of good info unless you spoof each and every agent, and those spoofing agents will not be able to hack while they do that. And it will be even easier if you have more on each commlink since response will be affected.
Giving commands
You would have a problem here since each commlink would be a different node and you don’t have an unlimited amount of free actions. Preprogramming commands would work, but they would still need a command for WHEN they are supposed to start their coordinated action, like a command saying “GO!” or something.
You would need 1 commlink just as a dedicated commandsection with each group of agents as a subscribed device just to keep track of them.
Technically it would be possible but the intrusion vector would be incredible. Here’s the problem.
You need to hack in and create a backdoor, say you use your skill+program and coordinate with 1 of your commlinks 4 agents. They roll 16D6 and you roll 12D6 as an example.
*edit*
Oops, my bad, they roll 8D6 X 4=32D6
*edit*
Each of their successes gives you 1D6 extra. Every one of their glitches raises threshold by 1 (3 for extended tests).
You are NOT allowed to use edge to modify the agents dice rolls, they are not yours, they belong to the agent.
So let’s say they get 4 successes so you roll 16D6. Nice, WHEN you hack the system and get inside I hope that your agents have stealth as well. Intrusion will come from two directions. 1: your commlink, 2: the agents commlink. Since hacking into a system is an extended test they would get 1 roll for each test, but 1 roll for each agent as well since they are a hacker in their own right, albeit a bit limited.
The chance of being discovered is raised by the amount of agents you use.
Since their successes are complementary dice all they would do ise to speed up the process to gain access, but once you are inside you would need to either have different batches of agents with different program loads since they are limited by response in how many programs they can use.
Even with stealth you would still have opposed rolls for each agent you use. So IC would use Analyze+Pilot VS Stealth+Pilot. And that IC would make 1 roll every time it searches, and you would have to roll once for each agent against the IC successes. If 1 of your agents are found out you are basically compromised.
Not to mention the increased traffic on the node might be discovered by the security hacker.
All in all, yes, it is possible but it would hardly be very efficient in the long run.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Upgrading a commlink isn’t dirst cheap since you must upgrade level for level. If you have a 1/1 commlink you would have to buy 2/2 then 3/3 etc and at most you save a few thousand per commlink. |
This is a houserule.
| QUOTE (nick012000 @ Mar 22 2006, 10:50 AM) | ||
This is a houserule. |
Is it, It doesn't say if each level is bought separately or if you buy the actual end rating you want. Since the price difference is so very great with the latter choice it stands to reason that it should be so. Otherwise no-one would buy a stock commlink if you could save 5K on each one of them. I could agree that a clarification would be nice but it has always been so in earlier editions of the game.
Given that we have a level 1 rating listed on the table, I'm beginning to lean in a new direction on upgrades.
What if, you add the "New Rating" to the existing rating. that is, through game play a 1/1 commlink could at best be made into a 7/7 but no further, whereas a 4/4 could be taken to 10/10 and a 6/6 could become the creme de la creme and hit 12/12. You're still limited to the stock program levels so even with a 12/12 your stuck at 6's for your apps.
To me this seems to make more and more sense as it seems silly that you get nothing but the name recognition for buying the 6/6 at char gen, there has to be something to make it worth the extra nuyen.
What if, you add the "New Rating" to the existing rating. that is, through game play a 1/1 commlink could at best be made into a 7/7 but no further, whereas a 4/4 could be taken to 10/10 and a 6/6 could become the creme de la creme and hit 12/12. You're still limited to the stock program levels so even with a 12/12 your stuck at 6's for your apps.
To me this seems to make more and more sense as it seems silly that you get nothing but the name recognition for buying the 6/6 at char gen, there has to be something to make it worth the extra nuyen.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Given that we have a level 1 rating listed on the table, I'm beginning to lean in a new direction on upgrades. What if, you add the "New Rating" to the existing rating. that is, through game play a 1/1 commlink could at best be made into a 7/7 but no further, whereas a 4/4 could be taken to 10/10 and a 6/6 could become the creme de la creme and hit 12/12. You're still limited to the stock program levels so even with a 12/12 your stuck at 6's for your apps. To me this seems to make more and more sense as it seems silly that you get nothing but the name recognition for buying the 6/6 at char gen, there has to be something to make it worth the extra nuyen. |
We will probably go with that you can only upgrade a commlink up to X2 its base rating, this will reduce the extremes of saving a small amount of nuyen in upgrading junklinks into uberlinks. There are limits on how much you can upgrade a cpu today before you need completely new motherboard and other hardware.
just pointing out that reverse engineering the hacker archetype shows it didn't buy upgrades piece by piece
Dear (The) Jopp, I believe your arguments are quite right.
I definitely like this x2 max uograde rule more than anything.
I also run things in pretty the same way as you described in your longer post above. (Mar 22 2006, 05:38 AM) I see the same issues you do, Tracking and increased node traffic being the most important problems to the AoAs tactic.
Cheers,
Max
I definitely like this x2 max uograde rule more than anything.
I also run things in pretty the same way as you described in your longer post above. (Mar 22 2006, 05:38 AM) I see the same issues you do, Tracking and increased node traffic being the most important problems to the AoAs tactic.
Cheers,
Max
| QUOTE |
| It clearly says for DRONES that they need to be subscribed in order to receive orders from their controlling persona – And it clearly says that agents and drones can only receive commands from their controlling persona. On the other hand, it doesn’t say that agents have to be subscribed. The main reason could be because agents are loaded unto ones persona while drones are a separate entity on its own node – the drone body. This makes it fairly simple. Drones MUST be subscribed in order to receive any orders. Agents must be subscribed ONLY if they are on a separate node. In the case of several commlinks the commanding persona just have to make a free action and pop over to the other commlink to give their order. |
It's not a Free Action to switch personas. You have to jack out, and then jack into the other commlink.
| QUOTE |
| 2: Giving Commands One command can be given to multiple agents/drones at once - one is not forced to give one command to each agent/drone at a time. In the case of separate nodes one could give separate commands to each subscribed agent or group of agents. The command would not have to be daisy chained down a line of agents, all will receive the command at once. |
I have no argument that you can't give a group of agents, subscribed to you, a command simultaneously. Cain is suggesting an expanded network of agents, multiple tiers away from you, in order to increase the number subscribed at once, and that requires daisy-chaining orders.
| QUOTE |
| 3: Combined arms As long as you give the agents comprehensive enough orders they could probably build the Taj Mahal for you, as long as the orders are clearly written – this is represented by COMMAND program. If I have several agents with different roles to fill you would just have to give the group a more complex command, either taking a little longer or forcing the hacker to get a certain amount of successes depending on the complexity of the order. |
Absolutely. Agents are fully capable of coordinating tasks, as long as they are capable of subscribing to one another. The subscriber limit does restrict how many can communicate at once, however.
| QUOTE |
| 4: Invisibility / Stealth Issue. A bit silly really. Ok, so your agents have stealth, fun isn’t it. Well, making the rules more complex is just bogging down gameplay. A user can see his own programs, it would be stupid if the agents you have uploaded can’t be seen by their own user, or even worse, they cannot see you. |
Agents you've uploaded are perfectly capable of seeing you, if you can tell them where you are, through subscription. Cain's suggestion involved agents, who were neither mutually subscribed nor subscribed to their owner, coordinating on a task, which doesn't work. I think you're not understanding his suggestions, and thus assuming that my objections are different than they are.
| QUOTE |
| Also, you don't need to use a Simple Action to communicate during a Teamwork test-- the whole point of it is that you're all working in concert already. |
You don't need an action to communicate with those who are subscribed to you, no. If you want to relay communications down a daisy chain, it will take time. Your groups of agents can coordinate with each other just fine, but if you want to use the tiered-network scheme to bring in extra agents all on one test, you need to spend extra time allowing for communication to pass back and forth.
| QUOTE |
| It's not a Free Action to switch personas. You have to jack out, and then jack into the other commlink. |
No, but you dont switch PERSONA, you switch NODE. Switching commlink in this case is the same as switching node since the commlink IS a node. The persona will become the persona on the new commlink and its running programs will apply.
| QUOTE |
| I have no argument that you can't give a group of agents, subscribed to you, a command simultaneously. Cain is suggesting an expanded network of agents, multiple tiers away from you, in order to increase the number subscribed at once, and that requires daisy-chaining orders. |
No it does not. The "Daisy Chain" would be the other commlinks (or several nodes depending on ones point of view). As long as each group of those agents have 1 slot of subscription on the commlink then you can give ONE command and ALL will receive it. It does not have to leapfrog from node to node...unless...
...unless you have 1 group subscribed and that group has another subscribed and so on. in THAT case you would have to add an order to the first group to inform teh next group and so on, and that would indeed take an action from that group of agents...and that would only be possible if THEY had the command program as well since they would have to send a command to the next group in line.
| QUOTE |
Absolutely. Agents are fully capable of coordinating tasks, as long as they are capable of subscribing to one another. The subscriber limit does restrict how many can communicate at once, however. |
Since subscription lists are written on a device like a commlink or computer system and not on agents themselves that would mean that no agent would be able to communicate with its owner if it has been uploaded on another persons system.
Since you have the Mac Adress/IP/adress/location/social security number of your agent you can always send a command to it. Subscription would only be nessecary to communicate across nodes.
Eeh, no. If you give them order to coordinat an action between Agent (IDcode12345) and agent (IDcode6789) they would be in contact. If they are on the same node they will simply work together. If they are NOT on a subscription list wouldn't be a problem since they would be programs loaded in your persona.
Remember: You switch node to go to another commlink that is active, then you just switch subscription list. This would mean that each commlink has its own unique subscription list.
| QUOTE |
Agents you've uploaded are perfectly capable of seeing you, if you can tell them where you are, through subscription. Cain's suggestion involved agents, who were neither mutually subscribed nor subscribed to their owner, coordinating on a task, which doesn't work. I think you're not understanding his suggestions, and thus assuming that my objections are different than they are. |
Well...that might be bit different. Still, if they are all active on the same node (ie uploaded on their individual commlinks but hacking node 1) then he could give orders to all agents within node 1 without subscription.
One could say that each Agent have their own persona and hacks from their commlink but pokes their own persona INSIDE the node which they are hacking, very much like the hacker using his commlink (HIS node) and pokes HIS persona into the node he hacks.
This way all of them ARE within the same node and would not need subscription.
Still, some clarification would be in order with subscription I think.
| QUOTE (the Jopp) | ||
No, but you dont switch PERSONA, you switch NODE. Switching commlink in this case is the same as switching node since the commlink IS a node. The persona will become the persona on the new commlink and its running programs will apply. |
Switching to a new node does not give you a new crop of subscribed agents. To switch out your subscriber list, you do have to switch personas, as your persona runs only on the original node where you logged in. You can access other nodes, but you're not running on them.
Edited to note: I don't know if you've noticed, but it is your persona that manages your subscriber list, and not whatever node you have accessed.
| QUOTE |
| ...unless you have 1 group subscribed and that group has another subscribed and so on. in THAT case you would have to add an order to the first group to inform teh next group and so on, and that would indeed take an action from that group of agents...and that would only be possible if THEY had the command program as well since they would have to send a command to the next group in line. |
Yes, exactly. This is Cain's scheme for creating an AoA in a nutshell.
| QUOTE | ||
Since subscription lists are written on a device like a commlink or computer system and not on agents themselves that would mean that no agent would be able to communicate with its owner if it has been uploaded on another persons system. |
Agents have all 4 matrix attributes, and subscriber lists, just like nodes. They store information and run programs, and in many ways function as an independent user, although they do have to use the local node's Response. You subscribe to both nodes and agent programs.
screw daisy chains
branch structure
7xrating 6s commlinks (straight 6s for hardware)
crackedrating 6 firewall
cracked rating 6 system
cracked rating 6 agent
cracked rating 6 stealth
cracked rating 6 exploit
cracked rating 6 armor
cracked rating 6 attack
cracked rating 6 black hammer
cracked rating 6 analyze
rating 6 reality filter (so you can run all those plus more progs at same time)
make 36 copiesof the agent proram
put 6 each in commlinks 2-7
in each commlink 5 agents get attack, exploit, stealth, analyze, and armor
the other has the same except drop stealth and exploit and add black hammer and spoof
using commlink 1
log into commlinks 2-7 using the multiple places at once and order all agents to "Follow me and assist in any exploit attacks I perform, also use your attack programs to destroy anything that attacks one of us,or attacks me." you then go to target system and attempt to crack it
now those agents each have 12 dice on their test
if the gm disallows auto buy successes then you get an average of 4 successes per (and deviation of more than 10 successes between them is unlikely) solets be pessimistic and assume a deviatgion of -20 successes giving 100 successes
now for a 12 dice test the odds of a glitch are less than 2% so thus it is about a 50/50 chance of even getting a single glitch... so we are going to assume 5 glitches
now the system is the Z.O.G.B. a rating7 host with straight 7 programs
admin access is a base of threshold 13 +5for the 5 glitches
with hacking 6 and a spec of exploit I have 14 dice
with the 'smiths' helping I get a bonus of 100 dice.
now since it is a single assisted task Zurich gets one test against me
now zurich gets 14 dice to detect me at threshold 6
percentage chance = 31.019% so 3 times out of 10 an alert will be triggered
now with 114 dice against the threshold of 18 99.999% chance
I just got God access to the most heavily defended system in the world!
in my next 30 seconds I order the remaining 6 agents to repeatedly spoof data trails on their commlinks and the remaining agent on my commlink to do the same
then I begin to transfer all the money from this bank into accounts all over the world, use the funds in these accounts to make cred machines spit out certified sticks, transfer cred to ecotage groups
put a few tens of billions into accounts that my team access in places that still do cash money
they then withdraw the cash from as many atms as possible, from as many accounts as possible, garnering us several million in cash and billions in cert cred.
now given the old descriptions of Zurich, this vanishing SAN will go away in a bit over 2 mins
so I spens another second or so getting God access to the ZO guidance computer, and crash the host into the asmosphere
Hello wealth
hello corporate war
hello tir na nOg
oh one last thing
gonna spend 15 seconds ensuring the war by hacking open Ares Space and launching thor shots at ALL potential Lofwyr locations, as well as the corp HQs of the big 10
branch structure
7xrating 6s commlinks (straight 6s for hardware)
crackedrating 6 firewall
cracked rating 6 system
cracked rating 6 agent
cracked rating 6 stealth
cracked rating 6 exploit
cracked rating 6 armor
cracked rating 6 attack
cracked rating 6 black hammer
cracked rating 6 analyze
rating 6 reality filter (so you can run all those plus more progs at same time)
make 36 copiesof the agent proram
put 6 each in commlinks 2-7
in each commlink 5 agents get attack, exploit, stealth, analyze, and armor
the other has the same except drop stealth and exploit and add black hammer and spoof
using commlink 1
log into commlinks 2-7 using the multiple places at once and order all agents to "Follow me and assist in any exploit attacks I perform, also use your attack programs to destroy anything that attacks one of us,or attacks me." you then go to target system and attempt to crack it
now those agents each have 12 dice on their test
if the gm disallows auto buy successes then you get an average of 4 successes per (and deviation of more than 10 successes between them is unlikely) solets be pessimistic and assume a deviatgion of -20 successes giving 100 successes
now for a 12 dice test the odds of a glitch are less than 2% so thus it is about a 50/50 chance of even getting a single glitch... so we are going to assume 5 glitches
now the system is the Z.O.G.B. a rating7 host with straight 7 programs
admin access is a base of threshold 13 +5for the 5 glitches
with hacking 6 and a spec of exploit I have 14 dice
with the 'smiths' helping I get a bonus of 100 dice.
now since it is a single assisted task Zurich gets one test against me
now zurich gets 14 dice to detect me at threshold 6
percentage chance = 31.019% so 3 times out of 10 an alert will be triggered
now with 114 dice against the threshold of 18 99.999% chance
I just got God access to the most heavily defended system in the world!
in my next 30 seconds I order the remaining 6 agents to repeatedly spoof data trails on their commlinks and the remaining agent on my commlink to do the same
then I begin to transfer all the money from this bank into accounts all over the world, use the funds in these accounts to make cred machines spit out certified sticks, transfer cred to ecotage groups
put a few tens of billions into accounts that my team access in places that still do cash money
they then withdraw the cash from as many atms as possible, from as many accounts as possible, garnering us several million in cash and billions in cert cred.
now given the old descriptions of Zurich, this vanishing SAN will go away in a bit over 2 mins
so I spens another second or so getting God access to the ZO guidance computer, and crash the host into the asmosphere
Hello wealth
hello corporate war
hello tir na nOg
oh one last thing
gonna spend 15 seconds ensuring the war by hacking open Ares Space and launching thor shots at ALL potential Lofwyr locations, as well as the corp HQs of the big 10
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