Full Version: Commlink Sanity
Can someone explain why it is cheaper to buy the lowest end Commlink and OS and upgrade rather than start with the best and upgrade it one step?
Let's talk about label hype. 
There needs to be a better reason than that. even if you had a GM that made you pay for each step along the way it's still cheaper to start with low end.
probably for the same reason it's cheaper to buy a barebones PC with crap components and then upgrade it into a badass gaming rig. i don't see the problem. why should it cost the same, or more, if you're doing all the work yourself?
Because there should be a logic behind it.
There are limits to what low end PC's can do, and the analogy of assembling your own PC isn't quite right as they describe it as just swapping a few chips and installing a different OS. Generally low end motherboards cannot run high end processors, so that would need to be swapped, the low end power supply is probably going to brown out and not have enough juice to run all your new toys, so that gets swapped after a while, then your heat dissapation system is underpowered because you're now running twice the juice through the same channels, so the fans have to be traded up. In the end, you can build a lower cost high end machine doing some of the work yourself, but it's generally very close when you factor in all the time it took to do all the work. Not around 40% cheaper.
There are limits to what low end PC's can do, and the analogy of assembling your own PC isn't quite right as they describe it as just swapping a few chips and installing a different OS. Generally low end motherboards cannot run high end processors, so that would need to be swapped, the low end power supply is probably going to brown out and not have enough juice to run all your new toys, so that gets swapped after a while, then your heat dissapation system is underpowered because you're now running twice the juice through the same channels, so the fans have to be traded up. In the end, you can build a lower cost high end machine doing some of the work yourself, but it's generally very close when you factor in all the time it took to do all the work. Not around 40% cheaper.
Its still substantially cheaper when you consider
A) OS install fees
B) Labour charges
C) Their profit line.
The peoblem I see with your analogy is that either way you're going to have a big ass gaming machine with the same components, the only difference is whether you install the components yourself.
As a note, I wouldn't buy a bare bones gaming rig and immediately upgrade. Just buy the parts and do it yourself, though I'm guessing it doesn't apply to SR4
A) OS install fees
B) Labour charges
C) Their profit line.
The peoblem I see with your analogy is that either way you're going to have a big ass gaming machine with the same components, the only difference is whether you install the components yourself.
As a note, I wouldn't buy a bare bones gaming rig and immediately upgrade. Just buy the parts and do it yourself, though I'm guessing it doesn't apply to SR4
remember, we are talking optical chips here so heating isnt a problem.
and by the 2070's i would have belived that they are now making cpus self-contained entitys so that your basicly using some kind of universal connector to hook it up to the rest of the stuff.
hell, RL cpus are starting to absorb the northbridge into itself. and when that happens you should in theory be able to set up a pci-e link to the southbridge and forget about multipliers and matching hz rates. they may even shift the whole socket stuff onto a small daughterboard so that you can change the socket without changing the whole board. then trow in a seperate power connector for that board and presto
and we should not forget that before SR4 a decker working at home could make his own highend cpu with just a computer and a chip cooker. forget about intel or amd
and by the 2070's i would have belived that they are now making cpus self-contained entitys so that your basicly using some kind of universal connector to hook it up to the rest of the stuff.
hell, RL cpus are starting to absorb the northbridge into itself. and when that happens you should in theory be able to set up a pci-e link to the southbridge and forget about multipliers and matching hz rates. they may even shift the whole socket stuff onto a small daughterboard so that you can change the socket without changing the whole board. then trow in a seperate power connector for that board and presto
and we should not forget that before SR4 a decker working at home could make his own highend cpu with just a computer and a chip cooker. forget about intel or amd
what? i've seen machines built for 50% of the price of a similar Dell or Gateway box, by shopping around and assembling the parts by hand. and "swapping a few chips around and installing a new OS" isn't really all that more complex than what you have to do to put a computer together. just replace "chips" with "fans/cards/etcetera". it's not like you need to solder your own connections on the motherboard, or anything, unless you're going for something crazy.
Doing anything yourself is cheaper... All it takes is a minor amount of skill and you are set.
| QUOTE |
| Doing anything yourself is cheaper... All it takes is a minor amount of skill and you are set. |
Not remotely true. There are better examples, but one big one is an absolute bottom-of-the-line Dell. You can't beat the volume discounts on it, even after the markup, because in that market the markup is razor-thin.
There's also the question of what you value your time at, but that's an entirely different issue.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 12 2005, 12:59 AM) | ||
Not remotely true. There are better examples, but one big one is an absolute bottom-of-the-line Dell. You can't beat the volume discounts on it, even after the markup, because in that market the markup is razor-thin. |
The same can be said about most of the Commlinks in the BBB. The bottom end models are significantly cheaper than the listed DIY upgrade costs, all the way up to the "average" Novatech model (3 Signal, 3 Response). ALL of the OS are cheaper than the program costs table buying System and Firewall separately.
[edit I keep thinking of more things to add] In the same respects, the high end models are incredibly overpriced because the markups are huge in that market, as it is a "luxury" or "status" market. Volume discounts also disappear because companies are selling a smaller number of units to a smaller (but wealthier) group. This applies as much to the real world as it does to Shadowrun. The "top of the line" commlinks aren't there for hotshot hackers, they're there for the corp suit on the make. The intended effect is clear: No hacker worth his salt is going to be using a vanilla off-the-shelf commlink model.
[edit again] To address the original question (concerning upgrades), each commlink upgrade likely represents the physical replacement of a large number of components. That is, to use the modern PC as an example, a response increase would involve the replacement not just of the processor, but also of the entire motherboard and RAM and a new video board to boot. With the increased integration necessary for a smaller device (like a commlink) you'd be looking at the physical replacement of a majority of the electronic components, not merely tweaking with the existing hardware (you can only overclock so much).
[edit again, to get to the point] As such, if a hacker were to start from the higher-end model, he would essentially be tossing out more expensive equipment to upgrade, so of course it would be costlier.
| QUOTE |
| That is, to use the modern PC as an example, a response increase would involve the replacement not just of the processor, but also of the entire motherboard and RAM and a new video board to boot. |
Not nessecarily
RAM - Active Memory (more memory to store programs being used)
HDDs - Storage Memory
Motherboard - response increase (faster bus)
WIth your example I could have a decent computer with a low end video card and I could play Battlefield 2. The current stumbling block to me playing BF 2 is my video card - everything else is up to spec.
To get back to the original question, I would also use my GM Powers™ if necessary to stop a character from doing it when it doesn't make sense for their background. For example, I've a drone rigger in a game who's also the mechanic (duh) and the hardware guy. Thus, for him to buy the cheap commlink and upgrade makes sense within his character concept. However, I've also a TerraFirst! member and slight technophobe (in the same group 
) who grudgingly purchased a middle of the road commlink and then leaves it there. It all depends on the person. Granted, not all GM's worry as much about character concepts as I do, but to me they're quite important and, thus, drive most of the creation process.
) who grudgingly purchased a middle of the road commlink and then leaves it there. It all depends on the person. Granted, not all GM's worry as much about character concepts as I do, but to me they're quite important and, thus, drive most of the creation process.
So, how much cheaper are we talking about here? Sorry, I don't have my book handy.
eh. if you've got the hardware skill at any respectable level, then i figure it's pretty much hardwired into your concept that you're the type who can and will build/upgrade your commlink. i mean, you don't get to the higher (4+, in SR) levels of skill because you went to lots of classes; you get to the higher levels of skill because it's something you're interested in, and spend lots of time on. (granted, your interest can lead you to take lots of classes, but you're still going to be hobbying around on your own.)
| QUOTE (Spookymonster @ Sep 12 2005, 08:03 AM) |
| So, how much cheaper are we talking about here? Sorry, I don't have my book handy. |
Meta Link Commlink (response 1, signal 2) for 200
Vector Xim OS (firewall 1, system 1) for 200
System 6 upgrade: 3000
Firewall 6 upgrade: 3000
Response 5 upgrade: 4000
Signal 5 upgrade: 1000
Total: 11,200
Note that resposne 6 and signal 6 are unavailable at character gen due to availability restrictions.
Now, do the same with the following:
Fairlight Caliban Commlink (resposne 4, signal 5) 8,000
Novatech Navi OS (firewall 3, system 4) 1500
System 6 upgrade: 3000
Firewall 6 upgrade: 3000
Response 5 upgrde: 4000
Total: 19,500
Pretty big difference only because the cost for the upgrades are static while the cost of the original hardware goes up.
Just a note Dashifin, without a Response 6, those other rating 6's are running at 5
Really? I thought it was just System.
And, I figured he wanted the worst case scenario and one can always hope to procure a rating 6 response upgrade in game after character generation and not want to have to track down or code the rating 6 system (or potentially other) upgrades as well.
And, I figured he wanted the worst case scenario and one can always hope to procure a rating 6 response upgrade in game after character generation and not want to have to track down or code the rating 6 system (or potentially other) upgrades as well.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Just a note Dashifin, without a Response 6, those other rating 6's are running at 5 |
That is true for the System rating and any programs running on the device only. It does not affect the Firewall or Signal rating.
Firewall is an application, it is limited to System, System is limited to Response. Signal I concede as separate.
Eh, I don't see a problem with the above. You're basically talking about throwing out older stuff and buying the best, as opposed to throwing out newer stuff to buy the best. Min/max-wise of course the cheaper one's going to work best, but keep in mind that non-hackers probably aren't going to spend the nuyen on all those upgrades so they're better off buying good stuff off-the-rack.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| Pretty big difference only because the cost for the upgrades are static while the cost of the original hardware goes up. |
Do you have to install the upgrades, by that i mean an Hardware or Software Extended Test?
nah, even non-hackers are better off buying cheap and upgrading. without some mechanical reason to do so, they might as well not have included those new systems. I would prefer to see limites imposed based on the starting system, like you can't take a response 1 commlink up to a 6, but tops out at 3, maybe 4.
Personally, the way I see it is it's less an upgrade than a completely new system. I'd still charge a character the cost of the cheapo commlink to represent the common hardware components and standard features (earbuds, screen, keyboard, case, etc.), but I don't see any reason to assume that any of the hardware relevant to system or signal would be kept at all when making an upgrade. The commlinks are described as being largely integrated pieces of hardware with a few key interchangeable parts. As far as the OS is concerned, when a character buys or codes a new System program, the character is essentially buying a new OS in entirety. I don't even see how you're coming to the conclusion that the program costs for System and Firewall represent upgrades to an existing OS. As far as I can tell they're entirely separate, the "stock" OS options being simply cheaper bundled packages.
Also, remember the Microsoft addage, Linux is only free if your time is worthless.
I don't think they came up with that one. Certainly if they did it's supremely ironic, but the basic point is sound.
~J
~J
im guessing the irony is in the amount of time used to fix windows vs linux...
Heh
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| nah, even non-hackers are better off buying cheap and upgrading. |
except that non-hackers aren't going to have the skills required to do so. sure, most runners will have at least a decker contact who can do the work for them, but that's only to be expected--what good decker wouldn't take charge of his team's electronics? that's the whole point of having him on the team, especially in 2070. everybody else, though? punk gangers, Lone Star beat cops, mister johnsons, etc.? their stuff is going to be off-the shelf, with minor mods at best. they won't have the skills to upgrade, and they won't have the contacts to do it for them.
you see the same thing today. it's way cheaper--and, given all the crap most PC mfgrs load onto the systems they sell, smarter and less hasslicious--to buy a low-end system, or even just bare parts, and assemble it yourself. but how many people do that?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| what good decker wouldn't take charge of his team's electronics? |
I know I sure as hell wouldn't let him/her anywhere near the thing.
~J
depends on how tight your team is (and how competent you are). if it's not tight enough for you to let him manage your EW, and you're not competent enough to do that yourself, it's probably time for him to find a new team. the one he's in isn't going to last long.
I know this thread has been dormant for months, but it asks the exact question I was going to present to the forum.
No one has put forth the explanation that I think is appropriate, so I'm not just beating a dead horse here.
From SR4 pg. 240:
"Buying Upgrades- Increases to Response and Signal can be purchased separately at the prices given on the Hardware Upgrades Table. <snip> Part costs are always half the cost of buying a hardware upgrade.
Hardware Upgrade Costs
New Rating"
I think it is likely that the designers intended that Signal and Response (but not Firewall and System) are intended to be gradually upgraded just like Skills or Attributes. Thus in order to improve a Meta Link Response from 1 to 5, it is necessary to buy the Hardware Upgrades for Response 2, 3, 4, and 5, not just 5. Improving the Response Chip and Wireless Radio (Signal) yourself would involve 4 Extended Tests, each with an interval of 1 day, not just a single Extended Test to build rating 5.
If this is the intent, the prices of the various commlink models make more sense. Let's look at maxing out each commlink model at character generation (response 5 and signal 5). In the table below, I list each model, and then show two prices. The second column is the cost of the commlink plus the full upgrade costs. This represents having the upgrades installed by someone else. The third column is the cost of the commlink plus the parts cost for the upgrades. This allows for the character to install the upgrades himself or negotiate for somone to do so.
Model --- Cost to Upgrade to Rating 5/5 --- Cost for Ratings 5/5 (parts only)
Meta Link 9750 4925
CMT 9800 5050
Sony Emp. 9450 5075
Renraku Sensei 9250 5125
Novatech Airware 8750 5000
Erika Elite 9500 6000
Hermes Ikon 8500 5750
Transys Avalon 10000 7500
Fairlight Caliban 12000 10000
As you can see, the commlink plus upgrade costs are very close for several models, so it is no longer a no-brainer to always start with a Meta Link. The two higher end commlinks (Transys and Fairlight) are not as cost effective, but if you need a powerful commlink right off the shelf and don't have time to wait for upgrades, they justify their premium prices.
Thoughts?
No one has put forth the explanation that I think is appropriate, so I'm not just beating a dead horse here.
From SR4 pg. 240:
"Buying Upgrades- Increases to Response and Signal can be purchased separately at the prices given on the Hardware Upgrades Table. <snip> Part costs are always half the cost of buying a hardware upgrade.
Hardware Upgrade Costs
New Rating"
I think it is likely that the designers intended that Signal and Response (but not Firewall and System) are intended to be gradually upgraded just like Skills or Attributes. Thus in order to improve a Meta Link Response from 1 to 5, it is necessary to buy the Hardware Upgrades for Response 2, 3, 4, and 5, not just 5. Improving the Response Chip and Wireless Radio (Signal) yourself would involve 4 Extended Tests, each with an interval of 1 day, not just a single Extended Test to build rating 5.
If this is the intent, the prices of the various commlink models make more sense. Let's look at maxing out each commlink model at character generation (response 5 and signal 5). In the table below, I list each model, and then show two prices. The second column is the cost of the commlink plus the full upgrade costs. This represents having the upgrades installed by someone else. The third column is the cost of the commlink plus the parts cost for the upgrades. This allows for the character to install the upgrades himself or negotiate for somone to do so.
Model --- Cost to Upgrade to Rating 5/5 --- Cost for Ratings 5/5 (parts only)
Meta Link 9750 4925
CMT 9800 5050
Sony Emp. 9450 5075
Renraku Sensei 9250 5125
Novatech Airware 8750 5000
Erika Elite 9500 6000
Hermes Ikon 8500 5750
Transys Avalon 10000 7500
Fairlight Caliban 12000 10000
As you can see, the commlink plus upgrade costs are very close for several models, so it is no longer a no-brainer to always start with a Meta Link. The two higher end commlinks (Transys and Fairlight) are not as cost effective, but if you need a powerful commlink right off the shelf and don't have time to wait for upgrades, they justify their premium prices.
Thoughts?
For Real world PCs:
Top of the line gaming rig (Tricked out Alienware Aurora 7500): $5,000
A PC with a case that can take similar components: $300
The components to upgrade that PC appropriately: $3,300
(Athlon™ 64 X2 4600+, 2x 7800 GTX 512, 1gig RAM, 500 gig HD, reasonable motherboard, etc - Interestingly, Alienware doesn't offer more than a gig of PC3200 RAM, so the "upgraded" system could easily be noticibly more powerful.)
The BBB pricing for commlinks seems fine to me.
Top of the line gaming rig (Tricked out Alienware Aurora 7500): $5,000
A PC with a case that can take similar components: $300
The components to upgrade that PC appropriately: $3,300
(Athlon™ 64 X2 4600+, 2x 7800 GTX 512, 1gig RAM, 500 gig HD, reasonable motherboard, etc - Interestingly, Alienware doesn't offer more than a gig of PC3200 RAM, so the "upgraded" system could easily be noticibly more powerful.)
The BBB pricing for commlinks seems fine to me.
| QUOTE (Westiex) |
| Its still substantially cheaper when you consider A) OS install fees B) Labour charges C) Their profit line. The peoblem I see with your analogy is that either way you're going to have a big ass gaming machine with the same components, the only difference is whether you install the components yourself. As a note, I wouldn't buy a bare bones gaming rig and immediately upgrade. Just buy the parts and do it yourself, though I'm guessing it doesn't apply to SR4 |
I admit, I've been to lazy to read all the other posts, but what you said isn't quite right. Even in our days, If you're buying an already assembled Desktop PC You've got a good chance to end up paying less than Assembling that stuff for yourself.
Here's the reason:
IF you're assembling the PC yourself, this means you've bought all the components yourself (usually), Now I'm quite sure you don't want any of that nearly untestet noname crap wich pretends to have the same good performance as high quality hardware, so I guess you'll buy some high quality brand hardware (better waranty and all that, plus it tends to have a flashy box design).
Surely You'll only take the best offer (comparing prices can save you up to 10%). But all in all, assembling your own close to high end PC will costs up to 800 Dollar Case, HDD, DVDROM, Monitor, Keyboard, Boxes, Software not included (should be another 500 - 800 Dollar)
A completely assembled Stock PC from some Big Assemblers like for example M****n will mostly have Noname Hardware inside except for parts like Graphics accelerator and CPU, having a high quality brand hardware for this parts wiehts more than saving a few dollars.
Everything else will be OEM ware at best.
"But how can the bis assemblers keep up their (relatively) high quality and still be that cheap?"
- Easy, they can testrun their assembled PC's, they can make contracts with their part suppliers to get only so called "high quality" OEM ware and most importantly THEY buy that stuff in such ridiculously high amounts they'll just get a HUGE discount.
lets calculate a little bit (or if you wish, call it rough guessing)
Self assembled close to High End Computer:
Mainboard average price 200 Dollar
CPU up to 200$ more likely 100 - 150$
Graphics accelerator (average) 450$ (High end) 800$+
Soundcard (very cheap) 80$ or onboard (nothing in that case)
Ethernet card another 50$
Keyboard 70$ (hey I'm a gamer)
Monitor/Screen 600$ (Samsung TFT)
Software (Linux Suse) 40$? or MS Windows XP up to 300$ (about half that if Student or OEM)
Mouse 40$ (I'ma gamer, remember?)
Speakers (Boxes fo us Germans) up to endless. (average 80$)
everything else Butter on my bread
Oh Yeah, RAM! (DDR2 2GB 150$)
thats roughly 1800 Dollar, IF we buy Linux instead of XP
hm...
something isn't right. I could buy my high end M****n Sam**** or whatever PC for 800 Dollar (Screen, Mouse, Keyboard not included) AND It comes with already configured Software! Cool, Huh?!
And.... well... I don't think this will change anytime soon, I guess it will even get "worse".So... I really dont know why upgrading an old Comling in 2070 is cheaper than buying a new one...
Umm yeah... That was just my 2
Hope ya don't mind...
Lung, i'm guessing you're converting from Euro's, those prices, or some of them, seem VERY high...
Motherboard: eh, about right
CPU: yea, thats right
Gfx: That seems WAY high for an "average" card, i'd say 150 for an "average" card
Ethernet:Easily had for 20
Wireless keyboard and mouse:I think you can still get them for around 90-100
Motherboard: eh, about right
CPU: yea, thats right
Gfx: That seems WAY high for an "average" card, i'd say 150 for an "average" card
Ethernet:Easily had for 20
Wireless keyboard and mouse:I think you can still get them for around 90-100
ethernet (and sound, but thats coverd) is often buildt into the motherboard these days. allso, gamer systems isnt realy representative of SR comlinks as there is nothing thats the equivalent of a high end GPU in SR, rember that the sim module generates fotorealism at cold sim
ram and storage is out of the picture (rember that in SR4, storage is virtualy limitless).
s what we are left with is:
response (CPU eqivalent)
firewall (allready today we are using more and more software firewalls)
signal (more like a mobil/network module. pcmcia maybe?)
system? (hmm, hard one. somewhat similar to os, but thats again software based)
ram and storage is out of the picture (rember that in SR4, storage is virtualy limitless).
s what we are left with is:
response (CPU eqivalent)
firewall (allready today we are using more and more software firewalls)
signal (more like a mobil/network module. pcmcia maybe?)
system? (hmm, hard one. somewhat similar to os, but thats again software based)
| QUOTE (Lung Han) | ||
I admit, I've been to lazy to read all the other posts, but what you said isn't quite right. Even in our days, If you're buying an already assembled Desktop PC You've got a good chance to end up paying less than Assembling that stuff for yourself. Here's the reason: IF you're assembling the PC yourself, this means you've bought all the components yourself (usually), Now I'm quite sure you don't want any of that nearly untestet noname crap wich pretends to have the same good performance as high quality hardware, so I guess you'll buy some high quality brand hardware (better waranty and all that, plus it tends to have a flashy box design). Surely You'll only take the best offer (comparing prices can save you up to 10%). But all in all, assembling your own close to high end PC will costs up to 800 Dollar Case, HDD, DVDROM, Monitor, Keyboard, Boxes, Software not included (should be another 500 - 800 Dollar) A completely assembled Stock PC from some Big Assemblers like for example M****n will mostly have Noname Hardware inside except for parts like Graphics accelerator and CPU, having a high quality brand hardware for this parts wiehts more than saving a few dollars. Everything else will be OEM ware at best. "But how can the bis assemblers keep up their (relatively) high quality and still be that cheap?" - Easy, they can testrun their assembled PC's, they can make contracts with their part suppliers to get only so called "high quality" OEM ware and most importantly THEY buy that stuff in such ridiculously high amounts they'll just get a HUGE discount. lets calculate a little bit (or if you wish, call it rough guessing) Self assembled close to High End Computer: Mainboard average price 200 Dollar CPU up to 200$ more likely 100 - 150$ Graphics accelerator (average) 450$ (High end) 800$+ Soundcard (very cheap) 80$ or onboard (nothing in that case) Ethernet card another 50$ Keyboard 70$ (hey I'm a gamer) Monitor/Screen 600$ (Samsung TFT) Software (Linux Suse) 40$? or MS Windows XP up to 300$ (about half that if Student or OEM) Mouse 40$ (I'ma gamer, remember?) Speakers (Boxes fo us Germans) up to endless. (average 80$) everything else Butter on my bread Oh Yeah, RAM! (DDR2 2GB 150$) thats roughly 1800 Dollar, IF we buy Linux instead of XP hm... something isn't right. I could buy my high end M****n Sam**** or whatever PC for 800 Dollar (Screen, Mouse, Keyboard not included) AND It comes with already configured Software! Cool, Huh?! And.... well... I don't think this will change anytime soon, I guess it will even get "worse".So... I really dont know why upgrading an old Comling in 2070 is cheaper than buying a new one... Umm yeah... That was just my 2 Hope ya don't mind... |
I just priced the lastest AMD processor the AMD 64 FX dual core 239 pin cpu at 1000.00 on newegg and cbw.com
| QUOTE (Aku) |
| Lung, i'm guessing you're converting from Euro's, those prices, or some of them, seem VERY high... Motherboard: eh, about right CPU: yea, thats right Gfx: That seems WAY high for an "average" card, i'd say 150 for an "average" card Ethernet:Easily had for 20 Wireless keyboard and mouse:I think you can still get them for around 90-100 |
Gee, ^^ I guess you got me with the Gfx ^^ I don't use Graphics accelerators other than Nvidia (the new generations are 'bout 450€ in our stores). And I really didn't waste a thought on those assemblers building PC's special made for Gamers.
But I still can't see why upgrading a low end Commlink is THAT much cheaper than buying a new one...
I mean, maybe it's a bad example, but tuning a Trabi (or a beetle If you wish) for High end performance is way more expensive than buying a high end car from the beginning (Formula1 and similar excluded)
In reality, DIY is cheaper in the lowest of the low end and the highest of the high end.
I recently built a rand new dual core Celeron for $250 dollars. It wasn't a hardcore gaming rig but it wasn't meant to be and it was cheaper than a low-end preassembled PC from Dell or similar.
On the high end, you'd be hard pressed to find companies who even assemble those kinds of PCs. Even manufacturers like Alienware don't stock the very latest superpowerful bleeding edge SOTA.
I recently built a rand new dual core Celeron for $250 dollars. It wasn't a hardcore gaming rig but it wasn't meant to be and it was cheaper than a low-end preassembled PC from Dell or similar.
On the high end, you'd be hard pressed to find companies who even assemble those kinds of PCs. Even manufacturers like Alienware don't stock the very latest superpowerful bleeding edge SOTA.
It's nice to see that one can use the upgrade table to build an old cyberdeck. ust increase response to max and ignore the Signal rating. The Response 6 "deck" would cost as much a basic Fairlight Caliban (slightly more)
| QUOTE (lung han) |
But I still can't see why upgrading a low end Commlink is THAT much cheaper than buying a new one... |
I agree that end savings shouldnt be too high, even today, i dont think that, in general total savings should be huge. For me, atleast, with my computer, DIY's primary benifit is cost distribution. I havent had to buy RAM for years. I STILL have an HP CDRW, from when i upgraded my old Compaq (the only stock computer that i've ever owned). Primarily, the only thing i've had to ever buy is new MB's and processors. That may change in the near future after i become employed, because i'm nearly at the max my mobo can do (I've got a 1.5 G AMD in it now, max is the 3200+ i beleive, which is 2.0).
Sorry, swung away there for a bit, but, my point is, the main benifit of DIY is to be able to "get this here, get than then.." and not have it hurt (as much)
| QUOTE (Lung Han) |
| I mean, maybe it's a bad example, but tuning a Trabi (or a beetle If you wish) for High end performance is way more expensive than buying a high end car from the beginning (Formula1 and similar excluded) |
bad example as mechanics work on a totaly prinsiple when it comes to upgrades (much more low level, closer to the hardware).
outside of poping in a new cpu and maybe a more powerfull radio, most of the comlink stuff is about software, not hardware.
thing is that SR do not cover silly stuff like having to change motherboard every other cpu generation because it needs a new socket and so on. in a car that would be like replacing the breaks and transmission so that it can handle the more powerfull engine that your putting in.
in many ways, comparing SR to RL sucks as there is not enough nitpicking details in SR...
on the subject of upgrading, i didnt notice any b/r tests am i missing them, or arent there any to simply upgrade?
im guessing its mostly plug and play/pray. ie, slot out the old, slot in the new.
It doesn't seem like anyone is really trying to deal with the original poster's problem, or the guy whose problem caused him to resurrect this thread, or my problem, which is why I am here.
What's to stop any starting character from simply buying a Meta Link for 100 , and then buying the upgrades at 5/5 for 5,000 , instead of buying the Fairlight Caliban, which is not as good anyway, for 8,000 ?
I am not talking about making a distinction from, or comparison to, real life. I am talking about trying to fix an obvious way for any starting character (even hackers, who are the ones using the commlink rules the most anyway) to beat the system.
Should I just change the price of the commlinks? Should I raise the prices of the upgrades? Is making the players pay for each upgrade one point at a time the answer?
I realize that making them make simple Hardware Tests to install the plug and play upgrades is a bit ridiculous. But if 6 is the highest available to consumers, and 7 is "cutting-edge or military-grade", then it shouldn't be so easy.
What's to stop any starting character from simply buying a Meta Link for 100
, and then buying the upgrades at 5/5 for 5,000 , instead of buying the Fairlight Caliban, which is not as good anyway, for 8,000 ?I am not talking about making a distinction from, or comparison to, real life. I am talking about trying to fix an obvious way for any starting character (even hackers, who are the ones using the commlink rules the most anyway) to beat the system.
Should I just change the price of the commlinks? Should I raise the prices of the upgrades? Is making the players pay for each upgrade one point at a time the answer?
I realize that making them make simple Hardware Tests to install the plug and play upgrades is a bit ridiculous. But if 6 is the highest available to consumers, and 7 is "cutting-edge or military-grade", then it shouldn't be so easy.
| QUOTE |
| What's to stop any starting character from simply buying a Meta Link for 100 , and then buying the upgrades at 5/5 for 5,000 , instead of buying the Fairlight Caliban, which is not as good anyway, for 8,000 ? |
Nothing, unfortunately. The RAW encourages it.
If you want to fix it, you can restrict buying upgrades to those with a Hardware skill. If you try anything else, then you run the risk of opening up another can of worms elsewhere. (Even doing this can cause trouble-- a PC with a Loyalty 6 Decker contact should be able to get the upgraded commlink.)
Ultimately, the only thing preventing PC's from doing this is rather or not they need such a bleeding-edge commlink. If they don't need the full package, they can get away with a weak commlink and a high-Firewall OS for much cheaper.
Speaking of a can of worms... I mentioned somewhere else, that my group use staggered pricing. That is, you have to buy each stage along the way.
Basically this means its horribly expensive to improve more than 1 comlink for a character. Forget about having enough money to upgrade your drones to more than the stable pilot 3.
You'd be better off buying alpha cyberware for the amount of money it would cost.
Cybersams 4 teh win.
Basically this means its horribly expensive to improve more than 1 comlink for a character. Forget about having enough money to upgrade your drones to more than the stable pilot 3.
You'd be better off buying alpha cyberware for the amount of money it would cost.
Cybersams 4 teh win.
I don't see why doing this at creation is a big deal. What does it save you - a build point worth of yen? alternatively, what is that few k yen worth later in the game? Chump change. Less the an elite runner expects up front for a meet? Less then you take out of one corp hostage's pockets? Less then a sammy spends on a bandolier of hand grenades? Less then a social adept spends on one of those fancy masks?
It seems like the guy is going through a build point worth of hassle to me.
The rules - like the new wireless rules - reflect the RL trend of technology getting cheaper. The old SR rules were written when having a big nice home computer was a much bigger deal then it is now I don't think it's an important detail.
And you do need a skill to install the upgrades if all you buy is parts.
It seems like the guy is going through a build point worth of hassle to me.
The rules - like the new wireless rules - reflect the RL trend of technology getting cheaper. The old SR rules were written when having a big nice home computer was a much bigger deal then it is now I don't think it's an important detail.
And you do need a skill to install the upgrades if all you buy is parts.
Personally, I think it should be cheaper to upgrade, if you have the skills/contacts, than to buy off-the-shelf. However, I do rule in my game that upgrades are limited by the modiified attribute rule, so they're unable to upgrade to more than 1.5 times the original rating.
The old rules were written after 1977, which is when having a home computer ceased to be a big deal.
~J
~J
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