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FrankTrollman
OK, here's a list of house rules that we're going to be using. Reasoning follows "-". We've

Character Generation:
400 BPs, 200 BPs on Mental and Physical Attributes.
-This is standard.

Metatypes:
Ork, Elf, or Dwarf costs 25 BPs.
Troll costs 35 BPs.
-This scales the costs of all meahumans to reflect the actual bonuses they get, rather than in reverse incentivization to the popularity of metatypes.

Attributes cost 10 BPs up to 1 less than the normal racial maximum.
The point of normal racial maximum costs 25 points.
-This is standard.

Skill groups cost 5 points, and may be purchased up to 4.
Individual Skills cost 2 BPs per die, and one of them can be brought to 6 or two of them to 5 (all others capped at 4).
Knowledge and Language skills cost 1 BP per die.
Specializations cost 1 BP
- The math has been posted exhaustively on this subject. Skills in the basic game cost too much. At half price, it is no longer possible to mathematically prove that skills cost too much, which indicates that they might be cheap enough to be worthwhile.

Wealth and Resources:
You must purchase at least 3 months of your lifestyle during character generation in order to have that lifestyle.
-This neatly removes the monetary incentive for characters to live the highlife.

For every 1 BP you spend on resources, you get 7000 nuyen.gif
-A Street Sam made under standard rules ends up less impressive than does a Magician or Adept. Also, there's a new unfunded mandate

Availability:
The maximum availability for character generation is twelve.
-This is a clarification, the book says both 12 and eight.

Contacts:
Loyalty ratings go from zero to five, with descriptions moved appropriately.
-This makes the cost of contacts which give you no special treatment more reasonable.

Qualities:
Natural Aptitude, Lucky, and Exceptional Attribute do not exist.
-These are not required based on the house rules pertaining to advancing characters.

Character Advancement:
Purchasing anything after character generation costs build points. BPs are awarded after successfully completing missions, in roughly half the amount that are suggested for Karma Awards in the basic book.
-There is only one way to make Karma Costs and BP costs balanced against each other, and that is to make them the same.

Skill groups cost 5 points up to 6, and 10 points per die up to 9
Individual Skills cost 2 BPs per die up to 6 and 4 points per die up to 9.
Knowledge and Language skills cost 1 BP per die.
Specializations cost 1 BP each.
-Allowing characters to aspire to being better than characters can start is a given.

Commutation:
You may purchase skill groups up even if you have one or more skills bought up separately inside. Increasing the skill group increases every individual skill inside them. If you would be purchasing a skill group up to six or less, and this would raise an individual skill to 7 or more, you must pay 2 extra BPs per skill. You may not raise a skill group if that would push an individual skill past 9.
-Since we are going linear, we can use the commutative property of addition. This means that characters are not punished for taking skills or skill groups in any particular order.

Attributes cost 10 points up to 1 less than the natural maximum.
Attributes may be purchased up to 3 more than the natural maximum, at a cost of 25 BPs per point.
-This is simply an extension of the reasoning for skills.

Learning a Spell costs 3 BPs.
-Obviously.
Autarkis
Looks good, but I don't think your statement....
QUOTE
The math has been posted exhaustively on this subject. Skills in the basic game cost too much. At half price, it is no longer possible to mathematically prove that skills cost too much, which indicates that they might be cheap enough to be worthwhile.

...is the gospel. cool.gif

But, I will state this, that you should make Attributes cost more than have Skills cost less, unless you are looking for a high powered game.
QUOTE
Situation Karma
Character survived the adventure 1
Character fulfilled most (2/3) objectives 1
Adventure was extra challenging 1
Character was particularly brave or smart 1 or 2
Good roleplaying 1 or 2
Character pushed the storyline forward 1
Character had the right skills at the right place and time 1
Player impressed group with humor or drama 1 or 2


Minimum for a competent player will be 5 with a strong player getting 8-9? That would be about 2 +1 to a skill up to 6 for competent or 4 +1 to a skill up to 6 for a strong. Seems to me, based on your previous concerns, you have swung the other way. But again, you might be looking for quicker development.

Since a flat point per die is better than an incremental cost per die, I would have moved from lowering the cost of skills to raising the cost of attributes. But, to each their own.

Glad you found a solution to your concerns. biggrin.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Autarkis @ Sep 10 2005, 08:17 PM)
Looks good, but I don't think your statement....
QUOTE
The math has been posted exhaustively on this subject. Skills in the basic game cost too much. At half price, it is no longer possible to mathematically prove that skills cost too much, which indicates that they might be cheap enough to be worthwhile.

...is the gospel. cool.gif

Gospel? Hell i wouldn't even rate it as high as a Sunday School song rewritten by Andrew Dice Clay and scratched into the back of a urinal. wink.gif His posts were exhasting, not exhastive.
fistandantilus4.0
down blakkie, down boy!

You're gonna piss off the Andrew Dice Clay fans for one....
blakkie
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 11 2005, 12:50 AM)
You're gonna piss off the Andres Dice Clay fans for one....

I can handle him.
fistandantilus4.0
who? Andrew Dice Clay, or his one fan?
blakkie
Andrew Dice Clay is still alive?
fistandantilus4.0
probably, look at the Rolling Stones Keith Richards. After World War III, it'll be twinkies, cockroaches and him. No reason the "dice-man" can't be is cronie.

As for your rules Frank, sorry, I can't somment, because I STILL don't have my friggin' 4th edition. But you seem to have a lot of the same problems that I do with 4th edt (skill caps) so I'll look it back over later. Hopefully your ideas can fix some of the things I hate (skill caps mostly) for me.
FrankTrollman
If blakkie would stop sticking his foot in his mouth all over my thread, that would be great. I understand that he has absolutely nothing to say and refuses to engage in literate debate, but having him throw feces like an angry monkey when other people are trying to have an intelligent discussion is just draining.

QUOTE (Autarkis)
Looks good, but I don't think your statement....


Of course it's not the gospel. I'm an atheist. It is, however, a mathematical fact. All the obfuscation that people were doing in the other thread about how karma costs were so opaque that many participants couldn't understand how much it cost to get bonuses have in this version been cut away. It's all build points, so it's simple enough that everyone should be able to follow it.

For the original prices, buying a Skill Group is provably better than buying skills individually, because you spend 2.5 times as many BPs, and you get 3 or even 4 times the skill bonuses. But buying attributes is provably better than buying skill groups because it costs exactly the same and gives you substantially more. Skill groups are more bang for the buck than skills, and attributes are more bang for the buck than skill groups. That's not an arguable point. They both cost 10 points, and one adds to some rolls based on a stat, and the other adds to all rolls based on a stat.

QUOTE (Autarkis)
But, I will state this, that you should make Attributes cost more than have Skills cost less, unless you are looking for a high powered game.


Well, I'm looking to have a game where people have more skills, but this doesn't actually translate into a higher powered game. Remember, the skill caps for starting characters haven't gone anywhere. So the party sniper does not, and can not, roll any more dice with longarms than he does under the normal rules. He just also has a veteran level of lockpicking and maybe some biotech. The "power" of the characters (by which I mean "how many dice do you roll on the tasks you do best") hasn't changed at all - it can't unless and until the starting character caps increase. What's gone up is character diversity (by which I mean "how many things can your character do without being an embarassment"). And that's just plain good for the game.

You run the risk in this sort of thing of making all characters the same - by potentially letting people buy enough skills that everyone has all of their skill ratings virtually identical. But at 2 BPs per skill point, that just isn't going to happen for 400 BP characters (it starts becoming a major problem if you are making 600 BP characters, however).

QUOTE (Autarkis)
Minimum for a competent player will be 5 with a strong player getting 8-9?


That's not my reading at all. Under the standard Karma system, a competent player should get about 3 Karma for a decent run, and 5-7 Karma for a difficult one. In any case, I'm suggesting cutting the official Karma Awards by half when going to the all-BP system. So even under your interpretation we are looking at getting 2 to 5 BP per run. That is going to take a long time to get the 100 BPs required to buy an Agility of 5 to an Agility of 9.

QUOTE (Autarkis)
Since a flat point per die is better than an incremental cost per die, I would have moved from lowering the cost of skills to raising the cost of attributes.


How would you have implemented that? I'm curious, because attributes already cost so much that a starting character has maximums of only 4 more attribute points than a generic civilian spread over the entire 8 stat array. It's important that that price be more than the price of skills, but I really don't see how there is any room for the cost of attributes to rise. If an attribute point has its cost increase by even 3 BPs, the PCs are going to be playing sub-normals at best. And a 3 BP shift of the cost of an attribute isn't enough to make a skill group particularly enticing.

What did you have in mind?

-Frank
Crusher Bob
I think the costs should be curved not linear. The argument is roughly as follows:

As many rolls in SR are now opposed, it is your ability to beat whoever you are rolling against that is important. At skill 6 (assuming an opposition die pool of 6) you succeed half the time, as your skill goes up, your certainty of success also goes up.

Having say:

pistols 2, automatics 2, longarms 2 is porbably not worth as much as, say, automatics 6.

I'm working plenty of overtime right now, so can someone else plot the curves of resisted die pools?
blakkie
I just thought of a great marketing slogan for your house rules!

"Frankie Trollman: Cutting out important, relavent facts to make the math easier and clearer since 2005."

Here's to hoping you sell a million copies. cool.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (CB)
Having say:

pistols 2, automatics 2, longarms 2 is porbably not worth as much as, say, automatics 6.


Quite possibly true. Of course, it also doesn't cost as much, so I'm not super worried about that comparison. Pistols, Automatics, and Longarms at 2 costs 10 BPs, Automatics at 6 costs 12.

Even so, Automatics 5 is probably better in most instances than the entire Firearms Group at 2, if only because you get to choose your own weapons most of the time. But for skills that you are going to be using whether you like it or not - such as Gymnastics, Running, and Climbing - I don't think that's really true. Is having a Climbing of 5 particularly better than having the Athletics group at 2? Not as far as I can tell.

You're right that weapon skills aren't entirely balanced in a point system. But they aren't going to be balanced in any point system, because the actual problem with them is that nine times out of ten you only have the weapons you bought for yourself, so any points you spend on additional weapon skills are wasted. If you have Longarms 6, you're likely going to be using longarms all the time. If having Automatics of 3 on top of that costs you even a single BP, you're probably getting screwed.

But I'm not willing to tear my hair out and throw the baby with the bathwater over that fact. Non-weapon skills really are pretty linear in their effect. And any system that successfully addressed the fact that the more Automatics dice you have the less you care about Longarms dice (and vice versa), would probably in equal parts break down on the fact that the more gymnastics dice you have the more you care about your running dice.

Spcialization pays off in attack skills. It always will, regardless of what system you implement for advancement. Diversification pays off in utility skills. It always will, regardless of what system you use for advancement.

-Frank
fistandantilus4.0
"don't try to confuse me with all your *facts*"
-Plan B biggrin.gif
Crusher Bob
Well, 'specialization' seems to pay off in many skill groups in they give you an exploitable edge.

compare a guy who has the following skills:

(assume all stats are 3)

Close combat group 3
Firearms Group 3
Hacking Group 3
Electronics group 3
Influence group 3
Stealth group 3

However, this character runs into the problem of possibly running into the situation he can't out talk, can't out fight, can't outsneak, and can out hack. A character who spent the same points in a specialization can be sure of beating the situation in their specialization. As the characters are almost always 'offensive' rather than 'defensive' it's them bringing their specializations against the 'general' situation, thus having an advantage vs the 'average' is relatively much more important than having 'average' in everything.



mintcar
I“m not fond of these houserules at all. To me, the costs are just right. People spend what they need in attributes and have less to spend in skills, making 3 a very good value for instance in my campain (300 BP, 200 for attributes). 3 is supposed to be professional level, so it makes sense that my street punks doesn“t have that in more than a couple of skills (specializations reach 4, maybe). This will be the natural area to improve later on, as it should be. And the skill caps aren“t a problem because they“re miles away (especially since there“s a million other things these guys need to improve.)
Serbitar
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
All the obfuscation that people were doing in the other thread about how karma costs were so opaque that many participants couldn't understand how much it cost to get bonuses have in this version been cut away.

Ahm, I did not know that some people had problems to add numbers from one to seven and multiply it with a two, three or five . . . But if thats a problem, the modern society has a big, big problem, too. Maybe we should go back to stone age then.
Cynic project
QUOTE (blakkie)
I just thought of a great marketing slogan for your house rules!

"Frankie Trollman: Cutting out important, relavent facts to make the math easier and clearer since 2005."

Here's to hoping you sell a million copies. cool.gif

I'll bite here.

One how are skill groups equal to or better than Attributes? If they are not why should players spend equal or greater points for them?

Two if the karma system is so fair and good, why is better to start with attributes at 5 and four at 1 than say some reasonable middle ground?
Autarkis
QUOTE
How would you have implemented that? I'm curious, because attributes already cost so much that a starting character has maximums of only 4 more attribute points than a generic civilian spread over the entire 8 stat array. It's important that that price be more than the price of skills, but I really don't see how there is any room for the cost of attributes to rise. If an attribute point has its cost increase by even 3 BPs, the PCs are going to be playing sub-normals at best. And a 3 BP shift of the cost of an attribute isn't enough to make a skill group particularly enticing.

What did you have in mind?

-Frank


Well since I missed your cutting the BP in half and also miscalculated Karma rewards, I have to say based on your concerns, the updates look like they address them. I would say keep the advancement the way you outlined it. The player will have to make the decision of on how many runs he will have to be without a +1 dice (depending on whether he goes skills, skill groups, or attributes) or maybe implement in game training times? Since these aren't in the base book (and something I think are a good component of any game that includes attributes and skills as complimentary.)

Keeping with your idea of advancement, instead of time X skill, just a flat training time.

So (and I would probably adjust depending on the speed you want players to advance.) So based on 10, 5 and 2, that would be the base for training days. If you had training time in days = BP, that might work out. Then again, it may work out naturally with how many BP you give out (again just the player having to make the decision on how long they can wait for that +1 die.) Time is always the big equalizer.

(Note: An example of time having a big impact is when people win the lottery for $X,XXX,XXX! And they can either take it over small payments over the years or a one time lump sum. Both are not equal, and normally the lump sum is less than payments over the years.)
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (mintcar)
I“m not fond of these houserules at all.


OK, you don't have to use them. They are house rules from Santa Cruz, not a golden tablet that you aren't allowed to look at. But even if you want people to be gutter level, you should still chrge people less for skills than for attributes, because they still aren't as good. You're welcome to play games based on 300 or even 250 BP characters, I'm certainly not going to stop you (or join you), but in that context you should still drop the price of skills. People should always get what they pay for, even (perhaps especially) if you are giving them less to spend.

QUOTE
Ahm, I did not know that some people had problems to add numbers from one to seven and multiply it with a two, three or five . . .


Neither did I. But on the other thread I was repeatedly questioned based on people not doing the math. Under the book rules, a die of skill is less than a die of attribute, and getting dice from skills is substantially more expensive in Karma and no cheaper in BPs. And when I stated this as fact (because I can do the relatively simple algebra in my head, and assumed that other players of Shadowrun can as well), I got the following responses:

QUOTE
How much does it cost to raise Agility from 3 to 4? 4 to 5?

By the by...still lazy...someone calculate for me

QUOTE
so groups in the long run isnt cost effective. but when your rolling up a new char, what then?

QUOTE
Yes, Trollman is peddling the pot of complexity solution.


Right. So obviously people either can't or won't do that math. Well I have done that math. Skills cost too much. End of discussion.

-Frank
Draconis
Frank I can only assume this is some kind of training excercise in patience to gird you for dealing with angry patients and HMO's. Still it does make for amusing reading.
Well keep it up, Prometheus would be proud. nyahnyah.gif
Derek
Anything change with these, based on anything I missed in a quick perusal of SM (since in my quick perusal, I didn't see anything that much changed karma costs, except for maybe group and ordeal discounts for initiation)

Dave
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Derek)
Anything change with these, based on anything I missed in a quick perusal of SM (since in my quick perusal, I didn't see anything that much changed karma costs, except for maybe group and ordeal discounts for initiation)

Dave

Wow, this is indeed a blast from the past.

Here are the things that I've done in the year since I came up with these:

Contacts: (More Complex)

What we do these days is have "contact points". A single BP gets you 3 CP. A Contact costs its Connections times its Loyalty. That means that essentially a 6/6 Contact costs 12 BP, which is the same as the "standard" rules, but other more reasonable contacts cost much less (a 2/3 Contact costs 6 CP which is only 2 Build Points). That's more complicated than the base rules, but it has the desired effect of getting people to invest in piles of low-end contacts to the degree that I want them to.

Higher Stats:

After much playing, I lowered the price of attributes in the 6-9 range to 20 BPs from 25. At 25, it was pretty stiff, especially because the first extra Magic raise only costs 23 (and comeswith an Initiate grade, which is worth noting). People who had raised their stats at the higher price got a rebate.

Allies:

I wasn't happy with the price given in Street Magic fr Allies. It's too expensive for entry level and too cheap for world destroying power. This one I went with my original draft:

The first Force Point is free (with the metamagic).
Each additional Force Point costs (Current Force) x 5.

With that cost, the Ally is a flat good deal at Force 1-4, which is where I want most Allies. And it costs a good chunk of change to get it into the 5-6 range (where Allies are really scary), and it's probably impractical to afford a Force of 7-9 where Allies become crazy game definingly powerful.

-Frank
Ranneko
QUOTE (Autarkis)
(Note: An example of time having a big impact is when people win the lottery for $X,XXX,XXX! And they can either take it over small payments over the years or a one time lump sum. Both are not equal, and normally the lump sum is less than payments over the years.)

The only one of those I recall seeing gave you the same amount as you would have received as a lump sum.

Also, you have to remember the effects of interest over the period, something they typically don't mention.
ShadowDragon
How much play testing have you done with these rules? Have you made any changes from your original ideas?
Jaid
isn't that what his last post just mentioned?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
How much play testing have you done with these rules?

About 8 hours a week for the last 54 weeks. And lately it's been up an additional 4 hours every other week. So about 450 hours of playing time.

QUOTE
Have you made any changes from your original ideas?


Yeah. The expanded contacts rules were new. Also I have a couple of house rules as regards specific pieces of equipment:

Wired Reflexes:

These are pretty lame as written. Wired 3, for example, should not even exist. I charge people 11k and 1 Essence point per rating for "modern wired reflexes".

Maglock Passkeys:

And similar automatic devices are considered to have anattribute and skill equal to their rating. So a Maglock Passkey rolls double its rating instead of its rating. Same for Retinal Duplicators and such.

Healing Times:

The healing tiomes in the BBB are crazy short. For Long Term Healing, I make the threshold to heal 1 box the number of boxes you have rather than 1. This bumps the healing time for major injuries to weeks rather than hours.

Programs

When hacking, your Dice Pool is Logic + Hacking (or whatever). Your hits are capped at 1 + Program Rating.

But those aren't directly related to my BP rules, I just think it's a better way of handling those things. I'd sit down and really rework Technomancy costs and effects, but noone really seems to want to play one in any of my games, and I'm not part of the Unwired team, so I don't have any pressing reason to work on it.

-Frank
Derek
Frank

Thanks for the explanation.

Dave
ShadowDragon
lol I didn't even realize this was such an old thread when I first replied.
Fortune
So, how many other people have tried this rules varient?
Fortune
Frank: In your chargen system, are Knowledge Skills still available free (as per Logic/Intuition) at chargen, or do they have to be purchased with some of the initial 400 BP?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Fortune)
Frank: In your chargen system, are Knowledge Skills still available free (as per Logic/Intuition) at chargen, or do they have to be purchased with some of the initial 400 BP?

The Knowledge Skills are available free as normal (Logic x3 + Intuition x3) and can be purchased at the rate of 1 BP per point of Knowledge skill (keeping with the skills at half-cost model).

3 different gaming groups, no complaints so far.

-Frank
Draconis
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon @ Sep 21 2006, 10:25 PM)
How much play testing have you done with these rules?

About 8 hours a week for the last 54 weeks. And lately it's been up an additional 4 hours every other week. So about 450 hours of playing time.

QUOTE
Have you made any changes from your original ideas?


Yeah. The expanded contacts rules were new. Also I have a couple of house rules as regards specific pieces of equipment:

Wired Reflexes:

These are pretty lame as written. Wired 3, for example, should not even exist. I charge people 11k and 1 Essence point per rating for "modern wired reflexes".

Maglock Passkeys:

And similar automatic devices are considered to have anattribute and skill equal to their rating. So a Maglock Passkey rolls double its rating instead of its rating. Same for Retinal Duplicators and such.

Healing Times:

The healing tiomes in the BBB are crazy short. For Long Term Healing, I make the threshold to heal 1 box the number of boxes you have rather than 1. This bumps the healing time for major injuries to weeks rather than hours.

Programs

When hacking, your Dice Pool is Logic + Hacking (or whatever). Your hits are capped at 1 + Program Rating.

But those aren't directly related to my BP rules, I just think it's a better way of handling those things. I'd sit down and really rework Technomancy costs and effects, but noone really seems to want to play one in any of my games, and I'm not part of the Unwired team, so I don't have any pressing reason to work on it.

-Frank

Well let's put it this way, I've been in since day one, never missed a session (as far as I know) and I have 111 BP. We almost always get 2 to 3 build points. I joke that when we get into combat we get 3 points for the session. I actually think we get about a point less than we should but that's probably just my perception as I never have enough to go around.

I must say things seem to work great. I've noticed the Sams seem to always sink their BPs into attributes while I haven't raised any (besides magic) ever. We've all bought new skills and raised prevous ones. Finance 6, woohoo.

Oh and technomancers just blow.
Garrowolf
I separated Karma off from XP and gave them both. XP works like the BP for the most part. Karma only effects use of edge (you spend karma to use your edge dice) and you buy edge with karma. You also spend karma on bonding for magic. Otherwise you use the XP. I give them a few points of XP at the end of the session and I give Karma during the session and after for good roleplay, funny actions, maxing dice pools, etc.

Fortune
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 19 2006, 06:22 PM)
The Knowledge Skills are available free as normal (Logic x3 + Intuition x3) and can be purchased at the rate of 1 BP per point of Knowledge skill (keeping with the skills at half-cost model).

Cool, thanks.

QUOTE
3 different gaming groups, no complaints so far.


I wouldn't be complaining as a player either! As a GM, I love well-rounded characters, and this certainly allows starting PCs to fill in some usually sorely overlooked spots. It als allows for the creation of (semi) realistic ex-military or spec-ops characters.

I love what this chargen system has done for my brand spanking new ex-ganger, Flintlock. biggrin.gif
Draconis
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 19 2006, 06:22 PM)
The Knowledge Skills are available free as normal (Logic x3 + Intuition x3) and can be purchased at the rate of 1 BP per point of Knowledge skill (keeping with the skills at half-cost model).

Cool, thanks.

QUOTE
3 different gaming groups, no complaints so far.


I wouldn't be complaining as a player either! As a GM, I love well-rounded characters, and this certainly allows staring PCs to fill in some usually sorely overlooked spots. It als allows for the creation of (semi) realistic ex-military or spec-ops characters.

I love what this chargen system has done for my brand spanking new ex-ganger, Flintlock. biggrin.gif

Ah another satisfied customer Frank. smile.gif Btw pizza's on me tommorow.
zero skill LPB
I like seeing characters with more skills. A few clarifications if you please, sir.

-----

QUOTE
Specializations cost 1 BP


Do you allow or have you allowed beginning characters to apply Specializations to skills within skill groups? If yes, have you noted any difficulties?

QUOTE
For every 1 BP you spend on resources, you get 7000 nuyen.gif


Do you keep the cap at 50 BP a.k.a. 350,000 „? Ever have a character go full bore in an impressive augmentation display? Any issues arise?

QUOTE
Also, there's a new unfunded mandate


What does this mean? I'm not familiar with the concept.

-----

What sorts of characters (sams, adepts, faces, hackers, full mages, etc.) have seen long-term play? Could you poke your players to post the original 400 BP versions of their characters?

Thanks!
FrankTrollman
QUOTE

Do you allow or have you allowed beginning characters to apply Specializations to skills within skill groups?


Absolutely. The Ork Gunslinger Adept sample character has improved ability on a grouped skill and that power has the same terminology as the restriction on specializations. As per the RAW, you can take a Specializatin on a skill that happens to be in a skill group, but you can't take a specialization on the entire skill group.

QUOTE
If yes, have you noted any difficulties?


No more than normal with specializations. You can't specialize any skill in "badassery" and get the +2 bonus any time you are "being a badass". Once that has been settled, specializations work out very nicely whether people are using them on grouped skills or stand alone skills.

QUOTE

Do you keep the cap at 50 BP a.k.a. 350,000 „?


Yes.

QUOTE
Ever have a character go full bore in an impressive augmentation display?


Several.

QUOTE
Any issues arise?


Characters in this model can legitimately set themselves up with an Essence that is less than or equal to 1 without doing stupid crap to themselves. This isn't normally a huge game balance issue, but it does mean that the cyberware upgrading rules (that aren't in the basic book!) are fairly needed by those characters.

That atually isn't a problem for me, for reasons that I am contractually obligated not to talk about. But waiting until January/Febuary of next year to get cybersurgery rules can really put out a character who went for a diverse asortment of internal metal.

The other thing I've seen happen is for characters to go full stealth mode instead. On 350,000 nuyen.gif, the lifestyles of the Synaptic Booster start getting pretty attractive for starting characters. I've seen a character who fought with a monofilament whip on an autospool out of a ring and a hold-out pistol who was extremely inconspicuous. Not game breaking in the way people normally expect ("I ROLL MORE DICE NOWZ!") but the ability to pull off normal street sam maneuvers without showing up as anything but a civillian on most technological or magical scans causes the game to be different.

I rather like the way that's turned out, by the way. But it's certainly something to think about.

QUOTE
What does this mean? I'm not familiar with the concept.


An unfunded mandate is a legal term which is when a piece of legislation requires an entity to perform an action but does not set aside funds to perform this action. The classic example is when the Federal government makes requirements of education or law enforcement programs of states and does not write them a check while doing so.

In 4th edition, there are several things that you must buy that used to be optional. The most obvious, of course, is the Comlink. But the base contracts apply here as well.

QUOTE
What sorts of characters (sams, adepts, faces, hackers, full mages, etc.) have seen long-term play?


El Mechador: Elven Street Sam focused on low-tech solutions to problems. Uses "unhackable" equipment whenever possible. Has an AK with a laser sight and a sword even though he also has a smart link. Fights cars in arenas and maintains a wide web of international mercenary contacts based out of Lybia.

Mocha Latte: Dwarf Rigger/Hacker/ Drug Dealer. She invested heavily into chemical sciences and operates out of an ice cream truck. Her military output varies tremendously based on her currently available drones, which range from little crawly things to man-sized vehicles with machinegun mounts.

Scratch: Mystic Adept with an incredibly convoluted story and a focus in melee combat. He now owns a Latvian slave girl who is possessed with a Norwegian bear spirit. He is an "Ork" from a game mechanical perspective (actually he's a magical creature, I said "If you can buy all the powers as Mystic Adept Abilities, go for it")

Ghost: Hacker Street Samurai who lives her life in Worlds of Starcraft, a Miracle Shooter like game that is big in Korea. Carries armor piercing weaponry and has been amazingly effective at killing spirits with it.

Urza: Dwarf magician who suffers from She Hulk delusions. Spends a considerable amount of time researching corrupted magic and collecting evil artifacts in his apartment. Also spends his time performing weapons research for Aztlan and real estate speculation.

Ophelia: Street Samurai "average consumer". Uses legal and unassuming gear to blend into society and assassinate people.

Brainiac: Hacker/Rigger who suffers from Scully Syndrome. Refuses to admit that magic is real and specializes in remote observation equipment.

Dr. Wang: hand-to-hand adept who also practices medicine and dabbles in hacking when he isn't flipping out and ninja kicking people in the head.

Marionette: Serbian Illusionist magician. Has a portable machine gun which she calls "plan B" and the illusion magics to take it into facilities without astral overwatch.

Jimmy: Confederate adept who specializes in throwing things. And blowing things up. And skinning things.

Michael: Troll magician face/pyromancer. He is a Fomorian subtype, so the face aspect isn't as crazy as you'd think. He's a follower of the paths of the wheel.

Boris: Dwarf Anarchist Rigger from Russia. Based somewhat on Mark Pauline. Makes destructive stuff and then destroys it. Lives the Beyond Thunderdome lifestyle.

---

A notable lack of Technomancers. Sometimes people investigate it for a while, but the rules just aren't there to do what people want to do with them. I've discussed it with the people writing Unwired, and I think that ultimately the rules aren't going to be where I'd like to see them. I think I'll just write my own.

QUOTE
Could you poke your players to post the original 400 BP versions of their characters?


I can try.

Also, I can just poke them, that's awesome.

-Frank
Draconis
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Scratch: Mystic Adept with an incredibly convoluted story and a focus in melee combat. He now owns a Latvian slave girl who is possessed with a Norwegian bear spirit. He is an "Ork" from a game mechanical perspective (actually he's a magical creature, I said "If you can buy all the powers as Mystic Adept Abilities, go for it")

QUOTE
Could you poke your players to post the original 400 BP versions of their characters?


I can try.

Also, I can just poke them, that's awesome.

Aww now i'm blushing. nyahnyah.gif I'm surprised you didn't say which creature.

What would you like? Just base stats and skills or the full monty with background? Also current character?

Ya I'm an attention whore.
Garrowolf
How about you set up a web site and post them there. Then you can post the web address here.
Draconis
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Oct 20 2006, 08:06 AM)
How about you set up a web site and post them there. Then you can post the web address here.

Never done a web site. I may be an attention whore but I deplore shameless self promotion. Ergo no my space, blogs, web pages or whatnot.
Hmmm how about Live Journal? I'm open to suggestions though as I find myself writing more and more shadowrun related stuff I could put up.

EDIT: I'm going to give Live Journal a shot and see how it turns out. I'm working on it now. Good thing i'm nocturnal, I should have this up in 3 hours hmm maybe 4, i'm making cookies, the eating kind not the electronic sort. smile.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Draconis)
Ah another satisfied customer

Yeah yeah! I still have to find a GM that would let me use him as a starting character, even if the game used normal Karma progression from there. biggrin.gif

Of course, it would be kinda nice to find a GM at all. frown.gif
Draconis
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 20 2006, 12:10 PM)
QUOTE (Draconis @ Oct 20 2006, 02:24 PM)
Ah another satisfied customer

Yeah yeah! I still have to find a GM that would let me use him as a starting character, even if the game used normal Karma progression from there. biggrin.gif

Of course, it would be kinda nice to find a GM at all. frown.gif

Hmm where are you? The moon? Heh, kidding.

Odd that package was supposed to make 3 dozen cookies and I got 12.
Anyone want a cookie the size of a frisbee?

Hmmm well I cranked some stuff out but I've only just started the background. It was a pain in the hoop to backtrack and do all the math to confirm I had everything correctly as original. Haven't gotten to personality, likes, dislikes, flaws, etc. I don't want to post incomplete stuff so it'll have to wait a few hours. To be honest I only had a vague idea of Scratch's distant past and actually putting it in words is proving interesting. I know even Frank didn't know all this and he runs the game.
Draconis
Well damn here I am a week later. I had stuff to do. Regardless here's what you asked for, scroll down to get to the original character. I'll put up Mocha Latte if I can get her later.
I can hear the groans already but screw it, Scratch is turning out to be one of my favorite characters to play in 16 RL years. nyahnyah.gif

Draconis' Shadowrun page
Wakshaani
Not sold on many of the tweaks, personally, but I have to say that I'm in love with the Hacking bits. Hacking + Program goes against the rules norm of Stat + Skill, but keeping teh programs around as Hit Limits? Simple, yet perfect.

I'll have to sit down and have a chat with you about skill point costs sometime, however. I think your prices are too low. Mind, I've *far* less playtesting time, so, it'll be a tricky talk and I'll likely not convnice you, but, I'm game to try. smile.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I'll have to sit down and have a chat with you about skill point costs sometime, however. I think your prices are too low. Mind, I've *far* less playtesting time, so, it'll be a tricky talk and I'll likely not convnice you, but, I'm game to try.


Go for it. I'll start:

Consider combat skills. We have someone who wants to fight in melee and at range. What should they do?

Well, Agility costs 10 points per die. How much should a die of Firearms group cost? How much should a die of Close Combat group cost? Once you've answered that question, how much should a die of Throwing or Exotic Melee Wapon cost?

Assuming for the moment that you wan people purchasing "professional ratings" of skills as starting characters (a contentious claim, I know), how much should you charge relative to the price of an attribute?


I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I've done a fair amount of math and playtesting on this issue, it would take quite a revelation to change my mind now. wink.gif

-Frank
Triggerz
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Wired Reflexes:

These are pretty lame as written. Wired 3, for example, should not even exist. I charge people 11k and 1 Essence point per rating for "modern wired reflexes".

Great system, Frank! Sadly, I don't play SR very often anymore - it's tough to get everyone together and I am pretty much at the other end of the world at the moment -, but I was looking for an easy way to re-create non-starting characters that would not involve two different systems with different relative costs for everything. I looked into making a purely karma-based chargen, but with skill groups more expensive than attributes, the relative costs just didn't feel right. Sure, you can limit hits to (skill)x2 to make skills more valuable, but it doesn't always make an awful lot of sense. Or I could adjust the relative Karma costs of attributes and skills, but then, there's the problem that raising a troll's strength from 8 to 9 costs way more than raising a human's strength from 4 to 5 even though they are the same thing relative to their metatype's average. The system can be modified to correct this, of course, but then the maths and record-keeping becomes quite involved. Overall, I thought that a two-step linear system was "good enough" and that your adjustments to the relative costs were pretty good. I'll use your system to convert my team's characters: first, create a starting character using the normal caps and BP; then, improve your character with a number of BP equal to (Karma/2). And I can always adjust the Karma transfers if the numbers don't feel right, but I think it will work well.

A few quick question though...

1-) Do you mean that you've gotten rid of Wired Reflexes 3 (and capped "modern wired refelexes" at 2)? Or do you mean that Wired 3 was way too expensive in terms of Essence (and nuyen) for what it did?

2-) Also, did you change the corresponding adept power to reflect this lower cost?

3-) Concerning specializations, I am really not clear as to whether or not they count toward the skill cap. If skills are capped at 9, can you get Pistols 9 (Spec. Ares Predator 11) or are you limited to Pistols 7 (Spec. Ares Predator 9)? (In other words, in the second case, you could improve your Pistols skill, but your specialization would still stay at 9.)
Fortune
Keep in mind that it is not "Pistols 4 (Predator 6)", but "Pistols 4 (Predator +2)". Specialization adds to the Dice Pool, not to the Skill itself. Therefore it is in no way limited by Skill caps, so if Skills were capped at 9, a character could have Pistols 9 (Predator +2).
Triggerz
Ok, I wasn't entirely sure (which is why I asked).

So... Is anything other than Reflex Recorders and Improved Abilities included in the skill cap? It seems to me that the skill cap isn't all that binding since pretty much everything gives bonus dice to the pool instead of increasing the skill (or the attribute).
Fortune
QUOTE (Triggerz)
Is anything other than Reflex Recorders and Improved Abilities included in the skill cap?

That's about it. Although there may be some things in future books that apply.

Pretty much anything affecting an actual Attribute comes under the cap however.
Triggerz
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Higher Stats:

After much playing, I lowered the price of attributes in the 6-9 range to 20 BPs from 25. At 25, it was pretty stiff, especially because the first extra Magic raise only costs 23 (and comeswith an Initiate grade, which is worth noting). People who had raised their stats at the higher price got a rebate.

How do you handle all the magic stuff based on Karma? From the quote, I'd guess you just say that 1 BP = 1 Karma point even though players acquire BP more slowly than karma. Am I right? The Magic increase in your example costs 13 BP for the initiation and 10 BP for the Magic point? And the cost of the Magic increase is always 10 - even beyond 6 - unless you max out your Magic, i.e. 6 + Grade, right? At first, I thought that it would penalize magicians since characters accumulate BP more slowly than Karma, but the flat cost of the Magic increase compensates adequately, I think, i.e. even though you'll pay more for the initiation, your Magic point will always be 10 BP instead of, for example, 18, 21, 24, 27, and 30 Karma points.
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