Who likes the hard cap set where it is? Options

[blakkie]

[Taki]

I have just seen as a fact the effect of a single skill at 6 automatic, for a elf - agility 7, and smg specialisation with smartlink.
I have nothing against that (except that the rules doesn't make it costly, thus this exemple has probably been seen on several games around, and it surely doesn't work well in the scales of the rules.
at almost no cost because in real life, being the best in one area takes most of your life time (and not just the time of 3 hobbies)

[blakkie]

[Gothic Rose]

I think that the hard caps on attributes are perfectly fine.

Skills? Nuh-uh. I'd personally get rid of Aptitude (or make it give +1 die, or something like that) and instead, have the skill capt at chargen be one 6 or 2 5's - like it is now - but instead, allow skills to go higher.

Hrm. Possibly, allow them go go as high as the augmented attribute cap for the linked attribute. I kind of like that.

I could also see increasing the cost by an additional multiplier if it's over 6 - so to go from 6 to 7 would cost 21 karma instead of 14.

[Xenith]

I have a set of house rules I posted a bit ago for this. I'll link it real quick. :)

Here it is. :)

Dragons, spirits, and talismongers are able to raise skills above 7 so why can't high powered PCs and NPCs. :grinbig:

(Althoug I prefer doing it mostly with npcs.)

Edit: I might add that I like the attribute cap, I just don't like the skill cap, or at least one so low. :)

[Jaid]

talismongers eh?

hmmm... note to self: every character i play from now on, awakened or not, must be a talismonger :P

seriously, i have said it before i am sure (and i will probably say it again next time this topic comes up), the caps are too low. i don't mind so much having a hard cap (especially on attributes). i would much prefer diminishing returns, but if, for example, a human could start with 6 strength and raise it to 9 strength, with those last 3 points costing double, i would be fine with that. chances are, i would never go that high anyways, since i like to generalise too much anyways...

but the simple fact is, never being able to improve beyond what you had in chargen just feels so lame. (and yes, i realise there are other areas to improve, but that's not the point).

[blakkie]

Less is more. The minimalistic house rule to accomplish the same thing:

Remove the "one only" limit on Aptitude and Exceptional Attribute and allow the +1 to natural cap to "stack" when taken mulitple times for the same Skill/Attribute.

Done.

[blakkie]

[Jaid]

yes, that was another thing i had considered. paying an extra 40 karma every time you want to build an attribute (or 20 for a skill) would certainly deter most people, while allowing you to satisfactorily make NPCs that are better in their specialty then any shadowrunner has reason to be (for example, you could have an olympic high jumper who is a better high jumper than any normal runner, and definitely any starting runner, is going to have)

of course, i've also been considering making some rather drastic changes to the system... but i still don't know if making that drastic of a change is a good idea, or if it will make everything really, really, weird.

[Feshy]

I actually like the caps where they are, for several reasons.

1) Game Balance (mostly). Other than metahumans being far better at certain tasks, hard limits keeps a good balance. Sometimes this metahuman advantage makes sense (a 9 foot troll running down anything in its path) and sometimes it doesn't (trolls are the best parachuters?). Sometimes it also forces a certain race to be in a roll, and I don't like that (For instance, why would ANY company hire anyone other than an elf to negotiate high priced contracts?)

2) Starting "world class" characters. I know a lot of you don't like this at all, but I do. As a character concept, I could play a national level pistol shooter, or a top-end racing mechanic. But in character generation, I'm going to pay for that level of specialization with a reduced skillset in other areas. I can't be a "world class shadowrunner" -- that requires being good in many, many areas -- so there will be plenty of room to grow. But I *could* be one of the best of the best in a certain area; and this frees up the character to develop in other ways.

3) Diversity through specialization. The skill cap increases the value of specialties. As high-end, specialized skills are rare, this means excuses to call in other people or other character types. Also, it means that while a character can be "the best of the best" in a very narrow field, he will ALWAYS have people that are better than him in other areas of his field. Hacker A may have maxed hacking with an exploit specialization, and be able to crack almost any system, but Hacker B is the regional expert on Tracking.

Some things I don't like about it:
1) Sharp transition in character generation from "Second Best" to "Best" with almost no cost to be "second best." Karma-based chargen would fix this.

2) Doesn't allow for truly world-class characters, like olympic competitors that devote the early part of their entire lives to a given specialization. However, such rules aren't really necessary. A shadowrunner won't have the free time to devote to, say, practicing pole-vaulting 10 hours a day every day. An NPC might; but as NPC's are the domain of GM's, and GM's aren't restricted by rules, well... it's still possible. Personally, at the higher level, I'd allow increasing a skill over the cap at the exclusion of other skills. For every point above 6 (or 7 with specialization), lower the caps on all other skills by one. You won't see many shadowrunners taking advantage of that rule, but it (IMHO) accurately reflects the total dedication required for truly world-class skills.

3) Adepts break all the barriers. An adept can throw just a silly number of dice in tests related to his special area of interest. As far as game mechanics go, I don't think this is as bad as it sounds. The costs for adepts to increase attributes is atrociously high compared to the cyber-samurai. Thus, in general, Adepts get good skills, Sams get good attributes, and there is balance. But with sufficient karma, this breaks down -- Adepts can buy cyberware too, and initiate to keep the magic value high. Fortunately, the cost of initiation is high enough that I think street sams still hold the edge in divesity. (Of course, some adept skills are still broken. Adept doctors and hackers, for instance...) So for game mechanics, Adepts seem to balance well, but for story puruposes, it is sometimes not so good.

Well, that's my thoughts on the cap. In other words, I like it. I didn't think I would when I first read the rules, though.

[fistandantilus4....]

I was planning on trying a higher skill ratings, requiring first that they take apptitude in the skill (much like Blakkie said) on any skill. And after that they can increase a skill above 6 (much like lucky lets you raise your edge, but doesn't actually raise it). Anything rated above 6 is x3 (or x5 for groups) to raise. That way it's more like initiation was where they can go higher if they really want to, but it's not exactly cost effective. But the option is at least there.

I still like being able to take attributes to 1.5 , rationale for this is that there are some people that are jsut better or able to push themselves at things than others are, like Albert Einstein, or those scary body builders you see in Muscle Fitness that are so damn big you can't find their heads. Are you really going to tell me that every street sam with strength of 6 looks like that? And if not, then how can you say that those scary roid-ragin' bastards aren't stronger? And not all of them are on 'roids, so don't say augmented attribute.

[Critias]

I'm not sure why people are trying to argue with Blakkie that something might be wrong with SR4. Has no one learned from those who've gone before you?

[fistandantilus4....]

I'm more throwing out my general thoughts/suggestions than arguing. And looking for some feedback really. So far I like the system and the new game with the stuff they've thrown in (although I haven't run any 'hacking' or spirits yet). But there are some tweaks I would like.

[blakkie]

[Kremlin KOA]

[blakkie]

Already posted in the other thread.

[Critias]

Hahah. Golly, Blakkie, you're right. 95% of your posts (on this thread and otherwise) aren't you vaguely defending or making up explanations and excuses for things people don't like about SR4.

You mentioned some typographical errors once (while immediately reminding everyone it was still playable), said you weren't a huge fan of a skill cap once (then went back to defending it in the same thread, justifying all the "what if's" for everyone), you called something "kinda wacky" once, and when you were feeling very daring you spent two paragraphs correcting someone's complaint and one paragraph complaining, yourself.

The best you can do are what I like to call "backhanded nitpicks," where you spend at least half your post kissing ass and the other half hesitantly pointing out something isn't quite perfect.

Reread this thread (people's complaints, and the posts wherin you leap to FanPro's defense), and call me a liar about it: People are wasting their time, trying to convince you SR4 isn't the best thing since two-ply toilet paper.

[blakkie]

Ah yes, it's not true complaining unless i only focus on what i hate, and let that become all consuming. So for Critias' standards it's got to be all bitchin', all angst, all the time or it is just kissing ass? Well sorry to say your "standards" are seriously fucked up.

News flash, i DO consider the rules good enough. Lots of things i'd have liked pushed one way or another, but they mostly fine where they are too. EDIT: With a few exceptions of course, the biggest one being Spirit stats. Posion damage vs. countering methods is wacked too.

P.S. So you are playing SR4 now? Or are you just here to waste bandwidth flinging your special bitter brand of feces?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Xenith]

I enjoy the part that keeps you easy to kill even if you are the very best. Its why I like the attribute caps (amoung other reasons). I prefer to extend the skill cap a bit more, but perhaps keep the cap somewhere. Another 3 dice doesn't really overpower a character (I've tested this using npcs and one pc has made it to a 7 in.. First Aid of all things...). In fact, I'd encourage it in certain knowledge skills.

Specializations are always useful, btw. An extra 2 dice for 2 karma? Heh.

And I don't care how good you are, you aren't beating a dragon with anything short of a couple railgun tanks and a battalion.

[PlatonicPimp]

I'd also like to note that we have no proof that Fastjack isn't an adept, either.

[The_Eyes]

Heh, now that's one interesting thing: Improved Ability breaks even the augmented cap, so a starting adept can be a better hacker than even the most dedicated 1000+ Karma mundane hacker.

Long live Magic>all.

[blakkie]

I think i need to put a link in a text file for convenient copy-pasting. :D

[MITJA3000+]

When I first heard of the maximum caps and all, I decided not to move on to 4th edition. For me, the real fun about roleplaying is the development - of the story, the world, and the characters. If there is a cap to be reached, and a relatively low cap, it takes the carrot away from playing your character, living with it. If, as I have understood, the character might reach a point where he cannot raise any more attributes or skills, it takes a lot of fun away from playing in the long run. 3rd edition has caps on attributes, yes, but to reach them costs a lot of karma. And there is no caps on skills. I don't wanna play a game, which I know will after some time (be it 300 karma, year or so, or whatever) will lose all the meaning when the characters are SIMPLY THE BEST at everything, which sucks like the song.

4th edition, with it's caps that can be reached easily (or not so easily, but still), seems like shortminded game, like hamburgers, get one campaign, move on, without constant elevation. Whether or not my games actually go on for several years doesn't really matter, the fact that they can go on for several years, that matters.

[Xeros]

Seems to me that making a more 3 dimensional multi faceted character is a very worthy goal. There will be a bit more diversification....works for me.