Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Who likes the hard cap set where it is?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Cynic project
I am not saying there shouldn't be a hard cap. I am saying that the hard cap shouldn't be so low. Staring characters will hit the hard cap, fast and hard the way it is. A well made gun bunny can only get improve their gun skills by about 4 dice after they enter play. Now I am not saying that 4 dice is nothing, but really with hard cap the way it is set up you really can't have that uber hard core badass. I mean, I don't see how I could make Raven, or even Hiro.

Part of shadowrun to me is that the runners are damned good at what they do. They may not beable to take a swat team on their own. I am just saying that they should have it within the rules the ability to reach skill levels high enough to to truly be a bad ass. So what if it some what unrealistic. It's a game, and I think it is stupid the way it seems the world's biggest bad ass would get his ass handed to him by 4-5 random punks in a fist fight.
blakkie
I'm not crazy about the fairly small gap between where a chargen PC can be in a given skill and and the top end. But then again to be good across a range of skills it takes a good deal of karma.

For example i did some rough estimates of a VR specialized decker. To get from the most specialized in that at chargen to reach top end is at least 300 karma, and arguably more once you factor in boosting Bod to stay alive and Willpower to resist dumpshock.

That's works out to 1 session/week, every week, for over a year to max out in a specialized area.
Cynic project
And 5 teen aged H4X0Rs can do more than your character.
blakkie
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Nov 1 2005, 01:07 PM)
And 5 teen aged H4X0Rs can do more than your character.

Define "do more".

EDIT: And while you are at it define exactly what you mean by a "teen aged H4X0R".
Cynic project
Anything you can do with your com link they can do better and faster than you can. the Hacker has an edge in this field over genor NPCs on the grounds they sometimes have to go to hard to reach places in person, but when you take out the physical area and have people just working in the matrix, you lose all benefits of hiring the best of the best. Hell you have to pay more and you still get less.
Zeel De Mort
I don't really like the hard cap. It's bad on attributes, but even worse on skills.

For example, in SR3 you might reasonably say Fastjack has a Computing skill of 18 or so, and no doubt an Intelligence of say 10 or 11. Whereas a regular decker who's still pretty good would be more like Computer 8-10, Intelligence 8, something like that.

In SR4 Fastjack's skill is 7. That's it. It just can't be higher. He doesn't really seem quite so naturally amazing anymore. indifferent.gif

The hard cap also REALLY encourages people to play metahumans and awakened characters, which is something most people were already too keen to do! Go an Ork and you can break the Str and Bod caps for example (and augment your body with a lot more cyberware than a human can, if that takes your fancy). Go an awakened character and your magic attribute, although expensive to increase, has no limit at all!


They could maybe make the whole system more like SR3 here, in the sense that 6 (for humans) was kindof the cap for attributes, but if you REALLY want to push yourself further you have that option. Likewise taking skills much above the linked attribute is very costly, but again if you really really want to be a badass, you can.
blakkie
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Anything you can do with your com link they can do better and faster than you can. the Hacker has an edge in this field over genor NPCs on the grounds they sometimes have to go to hard to reach places in person, but when you take out the physical area and have people just working in the matrix, you lose all benefits of hiring the best of the best. Hell you have to pay more and you still get less.

You're still coming across to me as giving a cryptic, hand-waving, nebulous rant.
Cynic project
They will score more hits on any given test than you.
blakkie
QUOTE (Zeel De Mort)
For example, in SR3 you might reasonably say Fastjack has a Computing skill of 18 or so, and no doubt an Intelligence of say 10 or 11. Whereas a regular decker who's still pretty good would be more like Computer 8-10, Intelligence 8, something like that.

In SR4 Fastjack's skill is 7. That's it. It just can't be higher. He doesn't really seem quite so naturally amazing anymore. indifferent.gif

You mean he no longer seems mortal when you put it that way? Well that's a news flash. sarcastic.gif wink.gif

So you think of an iconic prime like Fastjack as just one Skill? Even in SR3? He is good at a -field-, and has an enormous body of contacts, favours owed, data/dirt accumulated, etc. Also frankly in some ways a notorious self-promoter. wink.gif
Zeel De Mort
Well yeah, he's all that too. No doubt if I were to create him as an NPC this would be reflected on his character sheet, as it would and can be in SR4.

But if someone wants to know who the absolute best decker in the world is, it's him! Computer skill, above anything else, is what he's best know for to your average guy. When that skill is fairly easily obtainable to any old decker, it makes Fastjack seem a bit... shit. smile.gif

Which he's not supposed to be!
blakkie
QUOTE (Cynic project)
They will score more hits on any given test than you.

....in tests where a group of good Hackers (if that's what you mean by the derogatory "teen aged H4X0R") can act in a team manner. But that certainly isn't an all encompassing thing.

Oh, and yes teamwork is actually important.....which is why friends/allies/associates/contacts and such are important to any 'runner.
blakkie
QUOTE (Zeel De Mort)
Well yeah, he's all that too. No doubt if I were to create him as an NPC this would be reflected on his character sheet, as it would and can be in SR4.

But if someone wants to know who the absolute best decker in the world is, it's him! Computer skill, above anything else, is what he's best know for to your average guy. When that skill is fairly easily obtainable to any old decker, it makes Fastjack seem a bit... shit. smile.gif

A bit shit because his solo raw Hacker skills are that of fully specialized 400 BP + 300 karma character?

QUOTE
Which he's not supposed to be!


He's suppose to be what? Deus? He was just a man. You want super heros? Well then you are talking dragons, and IEs, and Clark Kent.
Cynic project
If Raven from SnowCrash got in a fight wwith say 5 gutter punks. Who would win in a story?Would would win in SR4?
hobgoblin
raven in both as long as the gm puts good story in front of rules lawyering...
Xeros
Hard cap on attributes makes perfect sense to me. It's biology. The human body has a limit on what it will do. Define that limit where you like, it's just a number, but some limit. If it's 6, then it's 6. That means someone with a Strength of 6 is at the peak of human performance without augmentation. It's just how far the body goes.

Skills however, should not have a limit. There is always something more to learn, always further you can go. If you want to control the growth, starting spiking the cost. 2x the level you want up to X, then 3 times up to Y, 4 times up to Z, etc...
blakkie
QUOTE (Cynic project)
If Raven from SnowCrash got in a fight wwith say 5 gutter punks. Who would win in a story?Would would win in SR4?
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Xeros)
Hard cap on attributes makes perfect sense to me. It's biology. The human body has a limit on what it will do. Define that limit where you like, it's just a number, but some limit. If it's 6, then it's 6. That means someone with a Strength of 6 is at the peak of human performance without augmentation. It's just how far the body goes.

Skills however, should not have a limit. There is always something more to learn, always further you can go. If you want to control the growth, starting spiking the cost. 2x the level you want up to X, then 3 times up to Y, 4 times up to Z, etc...

hmm, how about applying sota on skills?

still, mostly what your talking about is knowledge skills. ie, more info about some subject or other. ones you hit a specific point with say a firearms skill you cant realy advance any more. like say when you can putt a full mag down range and make them all hit bullseye and so on.

thats realy the problem of say reprecenting fastjack. not only would be he able to more less read matrix code in real time, but he would know the ideas and design decisions behind all the major, and more or less all the minor systems that are used to run matrix hosts. all their strengths and weaknesses, and he would keep himself up to date on the latest IC and other security related subjects ++

its not just the active skills that make a man what he is.

i wonder, is there a hard cap on knowledge skills?
Cynic project
QUOTE (Xeros)
Hard cap on attributes makes perfect sense to me. It's biology. The human body has a limit on what it will do. Define that limit where you like, it's just a number, but some limit. If it's 6, then it's 6. That means someone with a Strength of 6 is at the peak of human performance without augmentation. It's just how far the body goes.

Skills however, should not have a limit. There is always something more to learn, always further you can go. If you want to control the growth, starting spiking the cost. 2x the level you want up to X, then 3 times up to Y, 4 times up to Z, etc...

That is utter bull, and not the whole point of the topic.

For starts people knew you couldn't run a 4 minute mile in the 50's. Someone beat that mark, then more and more people did. They knew the upper limit of what the human body could do and they were wrong.

still the topic is not only about having a hard cap.It is also that the card cap is right there for starting characters. You hit it so fast it is not funny.
blakkie
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Nov 1 2005, 02:30 PM)
still the topic is not only about having a hard cap.It is also that the card cap is right there for starting characters. You hit it so fast it is not funny.

Deja vu all over again.

EDIT: As a side note, new to a player does not nessarily mean new to the shadows.
Taki
caps seems fairly good.
the worst point is how easy it is for beginning to hit the caps at no cost ...
Use karma based creation is the beginning of a solution.
blakkie
QUOTE (Taki)
the worst point is how easy it is for beginning to hit the caps at no cost ...

... other than seriously lowering the characters abilities outside the single Skill and Specialization they choose.
Taki
come on ... having a 6 in a stat and a 6 in a skill plus a specialisation won't lower that seriously other capacities (it has stupidly the same cost of 3 times a skill with a rating of 2)
SFEley
QUOTE (Cynic project)
If Raven from SnowCrash got in a fight wwith say 5 gutter punks. Who would win in a story?Would would win in SR4?

Raven, because he's got a nuclear weapon strapped to his motorcycle. And with Reputation 6 and Notoriety 6, there's no way five street kids would mess with him.

Anyway, he's not portrayed as unbeatable. Note that in the book, he lost in 'combat' to one teenage girl with a cleverly concealed narcoject...


blakkie
QUOTE (Taki)
come on ... having a 6 in a stat and a 6 in a skill plus a specialisation won't lower that seriously other capacities (it has stupidly the same cost of 3 times a skill with a rating of 2)

That last point of an Attribute costing 25BP definately puts the pinch on a character. So much so i wouldn't recommend anyone build their character that way. Then you have the 20BP for Exceptional Attribute. Plus the 7th point for a Skill costs a whopping 18BP including the Quality. Yes, 63BP puts a serious dent in a character build (i'm not even counting the extra 10BP for the 6th Attribute point).

To boot you have used up 30 of the 35BP limit on chargen Positive Qualities. So no Mystic Adepts or Magicians need apply, and you won't be Code Slinging or such out of the gate either.
Taki
You are quite right.
but reaching the "max -1" is easy at almost no cost - and this is a broken chargen in my mind. This is my point.

The caps are good because otherwise adding or substracting dices have no real impact when the pool is equal to 18 dices
blakkie
QUOTE (Taki @ Nov 1 2005, 03:15 PM)
You are quite right.
but reaching the "max -1" is easy at almost no cost - and this is a broken chargen in my mind. This is my point.

Only you can do it in only one Skill (or two Skills if you put 5's there), and one Skill does not a 'runner make. Another cost is if that Skill is part of a Skill Group and you'd like the character to have those other skills at a higher value to start with (Hackers are a good example of this, Face characters too).

Also buying up to the 5th point in multiple Attributes tends to create 1's and 2's in the other Attributes. Once again "at almost no cost" is rather dubious. Especially when "max-1" is actually not for one of the Attributes.

QUOTE
The caps are good because otherwise adding or substracting dices have no real impact when the pool is equal to 18 dices


Not entirely true, though the impact is roughly inversely proportional to the die pool size. So a -1 die penalty with 9 dice is about the same as -2 die penalty with 18 dice when you are dealing with Opposed Tests.

EDIT: Of course anytime you come up against hardware or fixed Threshhold tests it becomes more of an issue. If you unbound Skills you have to look hard at unbounding a lot of the gear ratings.
Taki
I have just seen as a fact the effect of a single skill at 6 automatic, for a elf - agility 7, and smg specialisation with smartlink.
I have nothing against that (except that the rules doesn't make it costly, thus this exemple has probably been seen on several games around, and it surely doesn't work well in the scales of the rules.
at almost no cost because in real life, being the best in one area takes most of your life time (and not just the time of 3 hobbies)
blakkie
QUOTE (Taki)
I have just seen as a fact the effect of a single skill at 6 automatic, for a elf - agility 7, and smg specialisation with smartlink.

I have nothing against that (except that the rules doesn't make it costly, thus this exemple has probably been seen on several games around, and it surely doesn't work well in the scales of the rules.

at almost no cost because in real life, being the best in one area takes most of your life time (and not just the time of 3 hobbies)

Only said Elf isn't "the best"** and, well, this is a game not Real Līf™.....and in the game it cost them their one chance to specialize, and will cost them futher if they decide to be able to come close to that sort of ability with Longarms or Pistols, and cost them 30BP (and the player's self-respect wink.gif ) for being an Elf.

** Though he's damn good, and i do echo the dislike how the Attribute cap is done so that a fully developed metahuman of one type can outstrip all metahumans of a different type that don't have a bonus to that particular Attribute. This isn't so bad except for Elfs who have no Attribute penalties, although the extra Edge for humans and the way Attributes bought with karma are priced definately helps in this matter.
Gothic Rose
I think that the hard caps on attributes are perfectly fine.

Skills? Nuh-uh. I'd personally get rid of Aptitude (or make it give +1 die, or something like that) and instead, have the skill capt at chargen be one 6 or 2 5's - like it is now - but instead, allow skills to go higher.

Hrm. Possibly, allow them go go as high as the augmented attribute cap for the linked attribute. I kind of like that.

I could also see increasing the cost by an additional multiplier if it's over 6 - so to go from 6 to 7 would cost 21 karma instead of 14.

Xenith
I have a set of house rules I posted a bit ago for this. I'll link it real quick. smile.gif

Here it is. smile.gif

Dragons, spirits, and talismongers are able to raise skills above 7 so why can't high powered PCs and NPCs. grinbig.gif

(Althoug I prefer doing it mostly with npcs.)

Edit: I might add that I like the attribute cap, I just don't like the skill cap, or at least one so low. smile.gif
Jaid
talismongers eh?

hmmm... note to self: every character i play from now on, awakened or not, must be a talismonger nyahnyah.gif

seriously, i have said it before i am sure (and i will probably say it again next time this topic comes up), the caps are too low. i don't mind so much having a hard cap (especially on attributes). i would much prefer diminishing returns, but if, for example, a human could start with 6 strength and raise it to 9 strength, with those last 3 points costing double, i would be fine with that. chances are, i would never go that high anyways, since i like to generalise too much anyways...

but the simple fact is, never being able to improve beyond what you had in chargen just feels so lame. (and yes, i realise there are other areas to improve, but that's not the point).
blakkie
Less is more. The minimalistic house rule to accomplish the same thing:

Remove the "one only" limit on Aptitude and Exceptional Attribute and allow the +1 to natural cap to "stack" when taken mulitple times for the same Skill/Attribute.

Done.
blakkie
QUOTE (Jaid @ Nov 1 2005, 08:42 PM)
talismongers eh?

hmmm... note to self: every character i play from now on, awakened or not, must be a talismonger nyahnyah.gif

I think he is refering to the Talismonger on page 285 that has a Knowledge Skill Magical Background (8 ).

EDIT: Which is incidentally a copy-paste [error] from page 259 of the SR3 BBB.
Jaid
yes, that was another thing i had considered. paying an extra 40 karma every time you want to build an attribute (or 20 for a skill) would certainly deter most people, while allowing you to satisfactorily make NPCs that are better in their specialty then any shadowrunner has reason to be (for example, you could have an olympic high jumper who is a better high jumper than any normal runner, and definitely any starting runner, is going to have)

of course, i've also been considering making some rather drastic changes to the system... but i still don't know if making that drastic of a change is a good idea, or if it will make everything really, really, weird.
Feshy
I actually like the caps where they are, for several reasons.

1) Game Balance (mostly). Other than metahumans being far better at certain tasks, hard limits keeps a good balance. Sometimes this metahuman advantage makes sense (a 9 foot troll running down anything in its path) and sometimes it doesn't (trolls are the best parachuters?). Sometimes it also forces a certain race to be in a roll, and I don't like that (For instance, why would ANY company hire anyone other than an elf to negotiate high priced contracts?)

2) Starting "world class" characters. I know a lot of you don't like this at all, but I do. As a character concept, I could play a national level pistol shooter, or a top-end racing mechanic. But in character generation, I'm going to pay for that level of specialization with a reduced skillset in other areas. I can't be a "world class shadowrunner" -- that requires being good in many, many areas -- so there will be plenty of room to grow. But I *could* be one of the best of the best in a certain area; and this frees up the character to develop in other ways.

3) Diversity through specialization. The skill cap increases the value of specialties. As high-end, specialized skills are rare, this means excuses to call in other people or other character types. Also, it means that while a character can be "the best of the best" in a very narrow field, he will ALWAYS have people that are better than him in other areas of his field. Hacker A may have maxed hacking with an exploit specialization, and be able to crack almost any system, but Hacker B is the regional expert on Tracking.

Some things I don't like about it:
1) Sharp transition in character generation from "Second Best" to "Best" with almost no cost to be "second best." Karma-based chargen would fix this.

2) Doesn't allow for truly world-class characters, like olympic competitors that devote the early part of their entire lives to a given specialization. However, such rules aren't really necessary. A shadowrunner won't have the free time to devote to, say, practicing pole-vaulting 10 hours a day every day. An NPC might; but as NPC's are the domain of GM's, and GM's aren't restricted by rules, well... it's still possible. Personally, at the higher level, I'd allow increasing a skill over the cap at the exclusion of other skills. For every point above 6 (or 7 with specialization), lower the caps on all other skills by one. You won't see many shadowrunners taking advantage of that rule, but it (IMHO) accurately reflects the total dedication required for truly world-class skills.

3) Adepts break all the barriers. An adept can throw just a silly number of dice in tests related to his special area of interest. As far as game mechanics go, I don't think this is as bad as it sounds. The costs for adepts to increase attributes is atrociously high compared to the cyber-samurai. Thus, in general, Adepts get good skills, Sams get good attributes, and there is balance. But with sufficient karma, this breaks down -- Adepts can buy cyberware too, and initiate to keep the magic value high. Fortunately, the cost of initiation is high enough that I think street sams still hold the edge in divesity. (Of course, some adept skills are still broken. Adept doctors and hackers, for instance...) So for game mechanics, Adepts seem to balance well, but for story puruposes, it is sometimes not so good.

Well, that's my thoughts on the cap. In other words, I like it. I didn't think I would when I first read the rules, though.
fistandantilus4.0
I was planning on trying a higher skill ratings, requiring first that they take apptitude in the skill (much like Blakkie said) on any skill. And after that they can increase a skill above 6 (much like lucky lets you raise your edge, but doesn't actually raise it). Anything rated above 6 is x3 (or x5 for groups) to raise. That way it's more like initiation was where they can go higher if they really want to, but it's not exactly cost effective. But the option is at least there.

I still like being able to take attributes to 1.5 , rationale for this is that there are some people that are jsut better or able to push themselves at things than others are, like Albert Einstein, or those scary body builders you see in Muscle Fitness that are so damn big you can't find their heads. Are you really going to tell me that every street sam with strength of 6 looks like that? And if not, then how can you say that those scary roid-ragin' bastards aren't stronger? And not all of them are on 'roids, so don't say augmented attribute.
Critias
I'm not sure why people are trying to argue with Blakkie that something might be wrong with SR4. Has no one learned from those who've gone before you?
fistandantilus4.0
I'm more throwing out my general thoughts/suggestions than arguing. And looking for some feedback really. So far I like the system and the new game with the stuff they've thrown in (although I haven't run any 'hacking' or spirits yet). But there are some tweaks I would like.
blakkie
QUOTE (Critias @ Nov 2 2005, 05:11 AM)
I'm not sure why people are trying to argue with Blakkie that something might be wrong with SR4.  Has no one learned from those who've gone before you?

What would there be to learn? That it helps you avoid making hopelessly daft, baseless jabs if you read before shooting off your mouth? At the very least reading in the thread you are talking smack in.
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Zeel De Mort @ Nov 1 2005, 01:15 PM)
For example, in SR3 you might reasonably say Fastjack has a Computing skill of 18 or so, and no doubt an Intelligence of say 10 or 11.  Whereas a regular decker who's still pretty good would be more like Computer 8-10, Intelligence 8, something like that.

In SR4 Fastjack's skill is 7.  That's it.  It just can't be higher.  He doesn't really seem quite so naturally amazing anymore. indifferent.gif

You mean he no longer seems mortal when you put it that way? Well that's a news flash. sarcastic.gif wink.gif

So you think of an iconic prime like Fastjack as just one Skill? Even in SR3? He is good at a -field-, and has an enormous body of contacts, favours owed, data/dirt accumulated, etc. Also frankly in some ways a notorious self-promoter. wink.gif

uh blakkie I can make a starting Adept that will rival or exceed Fastjack's skill in the matrix


computing groups at 4
4 computing skills each get a +4 skill boost due to adept powers
start with the straight 5s commlink that the starting hacker has

you end up with someone who throws 13 dice at any computing test


funny with Fastjack's 7's and a top deck (straight 6s according to the books) Fastjack only throws 13 dice at matrix tests
blakkie
Already posted in the other thread.
Critias
Hahah. Golly, Blakkie, you're right. 95% of your posts (on this thread and otherwise) aren't you vaguely defending or making up explanations and excuses for things people don't like about SR4.

You mentioned some typographical errors once (while immediately reminding everyone it was still playable), said you weren't a huge fan of a skill cap once (then went back to defending it in the same thread, justifying all the "what if's" for everyone), you called something "kinda wacky" once, and when you were feeling very daring you spent two paragraphs correcting someone's complaint and one paragraph complaining, yourself.

The best you can do are what I like to call "backhanded nitpicks," where you spend at least half your post kissing ass and the other half hesitantly pointing out something isn't quite perfect.

Reread this thread (people's complaints, and the posts wherin you leap to FanPro's defense), and call me a liar about it: People are wasting their time, trying to convince you SR4 isn't the best thing since two-ply toilet paper.
blakkie
Ah yes, it's not true complaining unless i only focus on what i hate, and let that become all consuming. So for Critias' standards it's got to be all bitchin', all angst, all the time or it is just kissing ass? Well sorry to say your "standards" are seriously fucked up.

News flash, i DO consider the rules good enough. Lots of things i'd have liked pushed one way or another, but they mostly fine where they are too. EDIT: With a few exceptions of course, the biggest one being Spirit stats. Posion damage vs. countering methods is wacked too.

P.S. So you are playing SR4 now? Or are you just here to waste bandwidth flinging your special bitter brand of feces?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Cynic project)
but really with hard cap the way it is set up you really can't have that uber hard core badass.

It seems that exactly this was the intention. wink.gif

And there's the reason why this, combined with the concept of Edge replacing Karma Pool makes me like it:

It makes play with characters of different levels of experience a lot more manageable - with all the implications for convention or online play.

On the other hand, it makes 'mere mortals' more... mortal. grinbig.gif
Xenith
I enjoy the part that keeps you easy to kill even if you are the very best. Its why I like the attribute caps (amoung other reasons). I prefer to extend the skill cap a bit more, but perhaps keep the cap somewhere. Another 3 dice doesn't really overpower a character (I've tested this using npcs and one pc has made it to a 7 in.. First Aid of all things...). In fact, I'd encourage it in certain knowledge skills.

Specializations are always useful, btw. An extra 2 dice for 2 karma? Heh.

And I don't care how good you are, you aren't beating a dragon with anything short of a couple railgun tanks and a battalion.
PlatonicPimp
I'd also like to note that we have no proof that Fastjack isn't an adept, either.
The_Eyes
Heh, now that's one interesting thing: Improved Ability breaks even the augmented cap, so a starting adept can be a better hacker than even the most dedicated 1000+ Karma mundane hacker.

Long live Magic>all.
blakkie
I think i need to put a link in a text file for convenient copy-pasting. biggrin.gif
MITJA3000+
When I first heard of the maximum caps and all, I decided not to move on to 4th edition. For me, the real fun about roleplaying is the development - of the story, the world, and the characters. If there is a cap to be reached, and a relatively low cap, it takes the carrot away from playing your character, living with it. If, as I have understood, the character might reach a point where he cannot raise any more attributes or skills, it takes a lot of fun away from playing in the long run. 3rd edition has caps on attributes, yes, but to reach them costs a lot of karma. And there is no caps on skills. I don't wanna play a game, which I know will after some time (be it 300 karma, year or so, or whatever) will lose all the meaning when the characters are SIMPLY THE BEST at everything, which sucks like the song.

4th edition, with it's caps that can be reached easily (or not so easily, but still), seems like shortminded game, like hamburgers, get one campaign, move on, without constant elevation. Whether or not my games actually go on for several years doesn't really matter, the fact that they can go on for several years, that matters.
Xeros
Seems to me that making a more 3 dimensional multi faceted character is a very worthy goal. There will be a bit more diversification....works for me.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012