By my guesstimations:

Shadowrun magic seems to work a lot like World of Darkness magic -- If enough people believe in something strongly enough, then it becomes "true." Apparently even retroactively true, since the linear relationship between Mr. Cause and Ms. Effect breaks down in the face of SR metaphysics.

Was there always a Dog totem since the beginning of time, and gifted people had to learn how to commune with it? Or did enough (mana-powered) belief spontaneously create this entity and "program" it into thinking it was eternal?

For purposes of flavor, this "chicken or egg" question is wonderfully moot.

But then you have people using some weird new form of magic that works only on this new manmade consensual reality. Are we supposed to believe that "Matrix spirits" always existed somewhere from the beginning of time, and just now humans are learning about them? Or is this just further evidence that humanity's collective unconscious is effectively God?

No matter what the in-game Ultimate Truth may be, the framework of Shadowrun's metaverse lets things exist for no other reason than "it sounds neat."

That's 100% good news for players, since we gamers love having all sorts of nifty options when putting together a particular character with a specific style and personality.

~~~~~

So, is Shadowland still around (in some form)? I bet it is, for no other reason than "it sounds neat."

If enough people think so, I guess.

I wouldn't bet on that approach. People didn't believe in magic in 2011 and it still manifested. And IEs exist even though people don't believe in them. And so on...

In SR the appearance of something goes before people believing in it. Back in Virtual Realities 2.0, Otaku existed, but even among the deckers they were only a rumor, a ghost-in-the-machine story.

Not as of the SR4 BBB, he's the "author" of the entire history chapter. Taking over for CC, which is why some people assume he is also running Shadowland.

People did too believe in magic. Lots of people, and not just the third-world countries and fringe cults.

Anywhere there's religion, there are people who believe in the supernatural. Even the atheists and agnostics who have "lucky underwear" are subscribing to a degree of magic belief.

The trick was that the mana levels had to cycle back up enough to where magic could consistently work again for those who were sensitive enough to it. If the Earthdawn precedent holds, then eventually the world will be dripping with so much mana that even the most mundane slob will be able to use the stuff.

Of course, at that point the horoi will come eat our souls (again), but we'll cross that metaplanar bridge when we come to it.

~~~~~

Besides, I'm not suggesting that the belief in magic is what creates it in the first place. I'm saying that belief structures how magic manifests itself.

Its presence or not seems to rely on that 10,000 year mana cycle thing that separates the ages (or "Worlds"), no matter our opinions on it.

Very relevant points. In fact, they end up supporting the "collective unconscious as God" concept.

The previously dissimiliar traditions of hermetics, shamans, druids, houngans, and so forth have recently "merged" into a more unified magical whole with relatively minor operational differences. So there is precedent for the otaku to likewise follow suit and become the more "mage-like" technomancers.

Do I see technos as oddly Awakened just because my human brain has a (necessary) pattern-matching addiction? Absolutely. SR4 is supposed to have a more globally unified game mechanic, so from a metagame standpoint that theory is reinforced.

Reinforced, but thankfully never capable of being proven. Any FanPro writer can come out one day and decide that technomancers are the results of a deal between ancient Martian aliens and Deus, thereby blowing any theories we have out of the proverbial water.

~~~~~

P.S.: Mana permanently altering body chemistry has precedent, too: UGE and goblinization. And SURGE, if that's still within accepted continuity.

No, it "reveals" to us the conscious God known as Fanpro.

However they unified combat spells and firearms, so does that mean anyone that shoots is awakened and that a rifle is just a spell?

It's like the magic being hard, codified numbers imposing itself on the IC notion that magic is relatively unknown.

But it does not in anyway preclude outside influence, mundane nor magical.

I doubt this'll happen in the Sixth world. The basic idea, however, seems to hold some weight. The more the time line progesses, the more *everything* in Shadowrun seems to become magical, from shamans to mages to shedim to otaku to technomage.
God, I can't wait for the enchanted orichalcum move-by-wire system
Or the matrix free spirit with a gateway power

Your post should have just stopped there, since that's the only truth that matters.

What really sucks is that God is a committee with imperfect QA. I mean that both in the Shadowrun metaphysics sense as well as the FanPro publishing sense.

EDIT:

Straw men aren't useful, dude. We're talking about unified Shadowrun supernature, unless you want to fully subscribe to the World of Darkness view in that even science is just another form of magic.

I think we can easily stay out of that circle, since in Shadowrun magic and technology are blatantly and diametrically opposed.

Um. Kill things and take their stuff?

You confusing an example with a strawman..

You brought up "a more globally unified game mechanic" which is a design philosophy applied to the whole of the game. I was simply showing in example another place where such a logic falicy could come lead to an error, but an easier to see error "since in Shadowrun magic and technology are blatantly and diametrically opposed."

Sure Fanpro partially homoginizing some of the rules could reenforce in a player in the belief of the IC "collective unconscious as God", but that doesn't mean that it is sound reasoning to do so.

Nossir, it is you who are confused. You brought up an intentionally ludicrous comparison in order to weaken someone else's position. That's a straw man.

Not exactly. Even the old Otaku rules were similar to mages, but it didn't matter. Similarity in the mechanics of two archtypes doesn't imply that the archtypes themselves have similar thematic roots; saying that would only invite the ridiculous comparisons of, for instance, ranged combat and ranged spellcasting as blakkie has done.

The real problem stems from this "organic Commlink and Sim module" (p. 233) that technos have in their heads, but for some reason technology is unable to explain. This implies two things right off:

1) Saying that technology is "at a loss" to explain technos implies that there is no tranceiver organ or organelle that science can point to and say, "this is what allows a technomancer to emit radio signals." I mean, triangulating the exact point of origin for a technomancer's Living Persona transmissions would be the first thing any reasonably intelligent person would try when attempting to find an explainnation for techno behavior, and would be a very simple operation. Since they still don't know what's going on, this implies that they couldn't find a reasonable source for these techno's transmissions.
2) The fact that technomancers *lose* Resonance rather than gain it when implanting machines in their bodies. Somehow implanting 'ware makes them less able to interact with machines outside their bodies, which wouldn't make any sense if their abilities had a mundane origin, but would make perfect sense if they were a strange form of Awakened.

As presented, it doesn't appear to be as simple as a single organ or region that serves as the "source" of the signal. If the actual mechanism for the transmission is distributed throughout the technomancer, then triangulation may be moot beyond pinpointing "Yep, there's a signal coming from Jane over there."

Pattern recognition again. If the basis for a technomancer's abilities - their Resonance - is based on a distributed system throughout their bodies (perhaps including certain psychological aspects), then any disruption of that intrinsic system may negatively impact their abilities. While both magicians and technomancers fare better without excessive implants, there is no evidence to show that they suffer from the same cause. I don't mean to imply that the theory of Techomancers-as-Weird-Awakened is necessairilly false, but there exist other possibilities that are valid as well.

The Earthdawn concept of Patterns closely resembles Plato's concept of Forms. In fact, one can say that Patterns is just another name for Plato's Forms.

Taking the to its logical conclusion, the most basic properties of matter is a result of Patterns. Heavily processed materials are made of several small patterns interlocked in such a way to create a larger pattern which is why they are more difficult to alter with magic.

This isn't to say that science is a form of magic. Rather, magic is a field of science much like quantum physics. In both cases, no one really understands the subject but it is obvious that a great many answers can be derived from it.

Exactly. Thank you.

We can pontificate upon the true origin of magic and technomancy all we want. It'll remain moot until some author decides to make some firmer declarations in a Shadowrun novel, and even then it can be called into question or dismissed.

Which goes back to my original position: If you (as a player) think magic and technomancy work one particular way, then it is So. Anyone who tells you differently simply gets to be "wrong," just like you're wrong to everyone else. Religions, philosophies, and fashions are all founded upon opinions anyway, which is why they make for lengthy but unprofitable conversations.

That is, until your GM de jour makes a sweeping declaration about how stuff works in his/her world, but what can ya do?

Assuming, of course, that the question isn't answered in any SB's or book adventures, which seems pretty unavoidable to me.
[Edit] Then again, I'm an ignorant fuck. [/edit]

Your position was already all fucked up when i got there. I was just spelling it out in big block letters for the slow kids.

Good points both.

But I still think the idea of people transmitting radio signals with their brains is stupid and wrong. I'd have much rather stuck with the Otaku idea of people with a peculiar form of autism or whatever that let them intuitively iteract with a raw Matrix signal, but still had to find some way of getting it into their heads (via implanted datajack, Commlink w/ Sim Module, or even trodes). I'm not even sure it'd be a balance problem to allow such technotaku to simply implant as much ware as they want without affecting their Resonance. That whole area of expertise is a giant BP/karma sink as it is.

(Edit): And blakkie? Occasionally you make a good point, but it's almost never worth wading through all the crap you sling to get to any of them. I bet you'd have a lot more people listen to you if you weren't trying so hard to pick a fight with them.

None that I've seen, but I don't claim to have seen (nor remembered) them all.

I don't understand why people figure that - because Fanpro has simplified the game mechanics - that the actual game world is melding magic into technology?

Note that once you take on the Technomancer quality, you cannot take any magic qualities, seeing as the next generation of Otaku believe so firmly in technology and the Resonance of the Matrix that there is no room for magic in their philosophy. Some point that all these people who post Computer Adept powers is that 1) Adepts are use magic to enhance their physical and mental reactions and 2) cyberware and magic do not mix well together.
Though I do agree to some degree that the Otaku should still need a commlink... If I'm not mistaken in 3rd Ed the amount of ware an Otaku implanted affected their Resonance as well....

Oricalcum laced move-by-wire system? I haven't known many mage players who want that sort of essence loss. What sort of foci do you plan on implanting into your spinal cord? Considering that foci can be used as an anchor point for spells, imagine the damage a fireball would cause exploding from within your body!?

Nope. Otaku could become cyberzombies and still be just as powerful as they were with 5.8 essence. Actually, they'll be even more powerful since the cyberzombie Otaku will probably have some task pool.

Since technos and mages have radically different paradigms which both fall outside of normal physical laws, the easy explanation is that they just use two radically different and therefore incompatible brands of mojo.

Easy? Yes. Accurate? We don't know.

Mechanically speaking, there's an opposed trichotomy of implants, Magic, and Resonance. That is to say those three concepts cancel each other out in any given character. Traditional Magic (pun intended) and Resonance are completely mutually exclusive, while implants detract from both in increments.

Shadowrun has always "melded" magic and technology to some degree. For instance, why does my Analyze Device spell magically enhance my skill with shotguns? Why did the ancient spirit of Mountain decide to grant me the supernatural gift of Improved Ability (Pilot Aerospace)? I dunno, but that's what happened and it's undeniably legal within the game system.

Per the novels and a sourcebook or two, Sam Verner's latent shamanism helped "awaken" a computer program into true AI status. Personally I just think that's just weird, but okay. That's canon; that's how they want to run their show.

Along those lines, because of his long (and, uhm, "personal") relationship with that AI Dodger was supposed to ultimately have evolved into something "more" than just a decker, and it's not supposed to have been an otaku. We can guess that was either a technomancer or a proto-technomancer.

Anyway, if technomancy is the ability to manipulate technology without the use of other technology.... but it isn't exactly magic, either, then what is it? Psionics (which is supposed to be just another magical tradition)? Mutant powers?

It's hard to look at technomancy and not call it some form of magic for the simple reason that it doesn't obey normal physical laws. The fact that it bears a thematic (and mechanical) similiarity to the new magic system supports -- but does not prove -- the theory that it's a peculiar brand of emerging mysticism.

Again, we're not going to know for sure until there's official word on it. Much like a religious debate, all discussions are going to be unproductive because non-circumstantial proof is in very short supply.

Don't bother wade through the single sentence then. *shrug*

Yes, i will normally address such comments directed to me such as accusations of strawmen. Aknowledging or rebuffing. In this case Azralon was offbase (hell it wouldn't even have been a "strawman" if i was trying to use it as an argument, but i didn't even bother touch on that in an attempt to keep it brief).

If by "support" you mean "does not actively rule out", sure. However given that there is another solid OOC explaination, stated intention by Fanpro to have different parts of the rules use similar mechanics, there would seem to be a solid explaination that does not require the Techos to be awakened.

However there are other items in the rules that suggest something very different is going on. Performing surgery to attempt to activate latent Techno ability. Aura does not have awakened sig. That body chemistry is different. The later also helps explain why Resonance is whole-body, outside of the obvious OOC game balancing reasons which is what Essense has always been about anyway. Otaku had whatever balance, at least in normal games, because they had very little in the way of cash to buy cyber/bio because it was so expensive. With the basics of SR4 chargen and 'ware pricing that was no longer a viable route without a lot of mucking about.

Supernatural? An ability that is more powerful than current understanding can give reason for.

I'll use one of your favored tactics, B. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magic

Here, maybe it'll help if I spell out a possible hierarchy of subsets for you, using terminology you might find digestable:

• Forces of the Universe
  • Physical Laws
  • Metaphysical Laws
    • Tradition-based Magic
    • Technomancy
    • Other supernatural forces we haven't seen yet

That's the way I've pictured it. Everyone's opinion may vary, and I'm not only okay with that but (unlike some) I'm happy about it.

You missed the "[*] Other Supernatural forces we HAVE seen", because, unless i missed a news flash the science of physics deals heavily in the metaphysical to explain what we don't know. Now if you are refering to metaphysical in terms of mysticism or occultism, well i'll definately take issue. Magic in SR is no longer entirely in the realm of the metaphysical in that sense. In the 6th world magic is real and tangible (EDIT: at least it's effects are obviously so). In fact magic in SR belongs under Physical Law as much as quantum physics....which makes your tree kinda wacked (because you are thinking of SR magic in 2005 understanding, bleeding through meaning from one to the other).

The real problem comes with the use of "magic" when talking about Techomancers in SR is that it tends to change:

• Things I Like
• Things I Don't Like
  • Cars
  • Sunlight
  • Being Late

[edit]
To:

• Sunlight
• Being Late
• Cars
  • White Cars
  • Black Cars
  • Other Cars

[/edit]

Who's blending science and magic together now?

If anyone else has the urge to debate the fundamental nature of (fictional!) reality to this guy, feel free. I'm going to go chat with this brick wall for a while; at least it's not blinded by its own ego.

MIT&T?

As a bonus you actually have a chance of outsmarting it.