Umm... no. As a physics student, I call bullshit. Metaphysics is a form of philosophy that has no relation to physics or any other science beyond the name.



You are right that in Shadowrun, "magic" can be scientifically quantified, and strictly speaking would probably be just a science that is not yet understood. (And, as is often the case when science is not understood, people start calling it "magic" or "supernatural" because they don't know any better. Give a guy from the 15th century a TV and you'll get the same result.) According to SOTA '63, Awakened ability and goblinization has been traced to genetic sequences located in what was thought to be "junk" DNA.

But you are wrong in one regard: "supernatural" is just another word for "magic", which is to say it's a term people slap on things they don't understand as if it's an explanation in and of itself, because the actual explanation (which is scientific, because everything is governed by the laws of science, whether we know about the particular law of science or not) eludes them. So saying that technomancers are supernatural is saying that they're magical, but with more syllables.



Also, blakkie, you are being rude and immature. Quit tossing out an insult every time somebody doesn't agree with you.

Philosophy is only mentioned by name in the first definition, but read #3. Sounds like philosophy, rather than science, to me. I could see #2 and #4 applying to science, however. Still, I'm going to continue thinking of metaphysics as philosophy: I learned about it in philosophy class, after all, and there was nary a mention of it in any physics class I've ever taken.

Although, I have to admit that some of the astronomers I've known have been very philosophical guys.


EDIT: We've completely hijacked this thread away from the subject of Shadowland, haven't we?

Boo! As much as I appreciate that, Thanks, i was all ready to ask TheNarrator if his classes had progressed past Newton yet and if not if he was enjoying his long naps in class and evenings free of worrisome assigned reading.

Magic being the purported invoking of supernatural doesn't mean that all supernatural equals magic. At least progressively so in (pre-Awakened) civilizations as they advanced in technology beyond the wheel. Certainly not as i elaborated on my use of supernatural. I'm pretty sure on the list of logical falicies that is somewhere in the vacinity of "strawman". But i'll leave it to Azralon as an excersize to correctly name it.

Hrmm, since mfb didn't jump in here i'll cover this:
I am indeed blunt with (among others) pompous buffoons that aren't nearly as bright as they think they are. Buffoons whos reaction to having someone point out that their foot is jammed down their throat is turning up their rhetoric, normally leading to their foot being shoved even further down. The further their foot goes down the more "rude and immature" i become.

So what is it going to be?

EDIT:

Thread hijacks are known to happen once in a while on DSF.

Hey, i'm trying to give fair warning and I'm the one being sniped. Self-defense i cry, self defense!

That's called people willfully jumping into water over their head, refusing to grab the life-saver ring, and then making a mess as they drown.

A man's gotta know his limitations.

Hmm.... I suppose you've got a point there. But from the example given ("the metaphysics of law"), somehow I don't think that's what they intended. I need another definition to work with. Here, lemme check my Webster's dictionary, see what it says about metaphysics....

Hmm... well, the science of cosmology is a subset of astrophysics, and the philosophy of cosmology is a branch of metaphysics. But I don't think that would apply to quantum mechanics: it's essentially the opposite of cosmology, as it's the science of the incredibly small ("the mechanics of atoms, molecules and other physical systems subject to the uncertainty principle" according to Webster's) and cosmology is "the branch of astronomy that deals with the general structure and evolution of the universe" according to both Webster's and my Astro 323 class. Webster's says that the word cosmology also applies to "the branch of philosophy dealing with the origin and general structure of the universe" which is why it's part of metaphysics.

<shrug> So I can see how physics and metaphysics (especially both their versions of cosmology) can get closer together as one approaches matters that are more and more unknown, culminating in questions such as "What preceded the Big Bang?" But I can also see how one's choice of definition matters. I don't really see metaphysics and quantum mechanics being tied together, but maybe that's just because I've always personally classified metaphysics as a branch of philosophy dealing with things outside the realm of current science.


Webster's says this about the "metaphysical":

I guess quantum mechanics can be "highly abstract" and "abstruse" (which means "hard to understand" or "secret, hidden"). Certainly I hated dealing with the formulae involved. But I doubt that if I asked a physics professor, they'd say quantum mechanics was "metaphysical". Regardless of the dictionary definition, the word's common usage has come to represent things that have nothing to with that which can be mathematically defined, or at least that's been my experience.

As for relativity... I've actually always found that pretty easy. Nothing metaphysical there. The math isn't even terribly complicated.

On a side note, that fourth definition would seem to tie it into thaumatology, literally the "study of miracles" and the science of magic in Shadowrun. (The second "T" in MIT&T.)

Perhaps, in 2070, connecting magic and technology is considered the realm of metaphysics? I imagine the Awakening sent a lot of philosophers into a frenzy. But that's neither here nor there.



P.S. I think Shadowland would still be around in 2070 and SR4. Maybe in a different form, but definitely around.

There's the flamewar between Smiling Bandit and Wolfman in Shadowtech that spans several item descriptions.

A theoretical physist may use mathematics, and the basis may be posteriori of some sort. But their theories are not proven by the math [axioms] (otherwise they fall under mathematical physics). Nor are they considered accepted, muchless proven, without building a history showing that they can predict actual observations and avoid contradictory observations.

Can these theories eventually be proven/disproven? Perhaps as mathematical & experimental physics eventually backfills in the perpetual chase, proving/disproving/refining as they go. But until then the theories are imaginations of the unknown and unseen with a varying potential to be proven or disproven. They can stay in that state for decades during which time, although not rigerously or fully "proven", they can become considered sound and accepted.

Understanding something becomes much easier once it's discovered and proven. Imagine someone walking up to you in 1800 and beginning to explain to you how Special Relativity corrects for errors in Newton's formulas above about 1/3 the speed of...light?! Do you honestly think your first reaction wouldn't be along the lines of having that crazy mofo put down for his own good?

Technically even Newton was a theoretical physist. Why? Because that's what the leading edge of physics tends to be, and he was indeed leading edge. The best way to envision it IMO is the flow of ideas from the catagory of "metaphysical" to that of "physical".

Now the whole of SR Magic will have begun this journey 60 years prior to SR4 timeline. But there will have been a lot of hiccups in that span too as the rising magic cycle keeps changing stuff underneath researchers, and entities like GDs with a vested interest in mantaining their power lead feed disinformation (and occationally death) to mortals researching magic (sometimes in the overall best interests of humanity). So where it is on transition? *shrug*

EDIT: I should add the other biggie, that Magic in SR is [so far] largely subjective in nature in both causing and observation. As far as i know that Dunk will item about creating a magic machine hasn't been collected on yet. That's why i picked quatum as the rough comparison, because trying to directly confirm it tends to tangle you in a web of free will.

Where SR magic and 20th century physics collide has been a place shrouded in mystery from the first time nukes stopped detonating properly and normally stable reactors started melting down like overloaded wall sockets and illegally imported children's toys. This boundry is not all opposites. Afterall they do share the same space on the physical [at least], and cast influences back and forth over the physical/astral divide. It seems possible Techomancers are some sort of product of that interaction (for example Winternight was doing wacky things with their nukes) but that alone would make them no more magical than a grilled cheese sandwich cooked up using a Fireball spell.

Unlike Dumpshock (and the rest of today's real world), Shadowrun (and, by extension, Shadowland) features attack programs that can be used to kill people in the same chatroom as you.

I like to think that sort of weeds out the trolls pretty quickly, in much the same fashion conversations here on Dumpshock would be quite a bit shorter if I could light people on fire through their monitors.

2070: When message board flame wars include 'real' flames!

Much as you pointed out in the thread about bringing someone back from the dead that to do so you first have to define death, if you want to start talking about Technomancers being magic you should have a good idea about what the use of the word "magic" represents and implies.

<waves from 4 steps back>

May I have permission to put this in my sig? I think it expresses the silliness of SR terminology quite well.

Go for it.

-Frank

I am sometimes awed at what happens here. Awed.

Of course there are trolls. What, are you some kinda humanis racist who thinks that trolls are too stupid to log onto a cyberdeck?

Blizzard needs to get some of those for their forums.....

The problem here is that everyone is using dictionary definitions and arguing off of those. That's not a good way to argue over the definition of a word. Dictionaries aren't really meant to be the definitive word on anything; most have rather haphazard editing, and there is no real proof that any definitions contained within a dictionary are truly correct or not. This is especially true in English, as there is no final authority deciding the exact meaning of any particular word.

Anyone here know the etymology of the word magic, or metaphysics? Etymology is a better place to start than a dictionary definition.

Of course, talking about whether Technomancers are magic or not in SR terms is much easier. Magic in SR is all about being connected to mana and the astral plane. Do we know that technomancers are powered by mana? Well not really, though the fact that Resonance is impacted by Essence loss just as strongly as Magic is does leave that impression. Further, there seems to be no natural explainnation for how technomancers can transmit and receive radio signals through their skulls, a process which usually requires an antenna of a size that would imply a specialized organ growing out of nothing, but in this case appears to just emminate from the techno's body with no obvious source. Neither of these prove that a technomancer's powers originate from mana or the astral plane one way or the other, though, and there could very well be another explainnation.

So my vote is that the jury is still out, due to lack of evidence. Or is there some that hasn't been considered yet?

That's the current situation in game.

Seconded.

Well golly, i tried to point out that using the dictionary for "magic" was an issue in the context of SR. I also made a point of including with "supernatural" an explaination of what sense it was being used in. Further when talking about metaphysics, which indeed has multiple meanings, i explicitly differentiated between the mystism version and the academic one.

Indeed dictionaries are useful in providing quick guidelines for word usage, as well as checking for mulitple meanings. They even on occation have a brief etymology.

"As a physics student, I call bullshit. Metaphysics is a form of philosophy that has no relation to physics or any other science beyond the name."

I envision that upon reading this the authors of the "Metaphysics Review" would stand slackjawed for several moments before proceeding to thrash TheNarrator about the head-and-shoulders with a white trimmed purple calculater while humbly but boldly calling out "Ecce crucem domine, fugite partes adversae."

Hint: For those that don't feel up to reading that much text, skip down to the section Criticism of the Critics.

EDIT: Yes, i am fully aware of the irony of that article using a direct quote from a dictionary. Let the record show that, in fact, it has me giggling like a schoolgirl.

You didn't even the read the text section of the link i mentioned?

Serious, no probelm. Attempting serious while forgetting to engage their brain, problem.

EDIT: Well, i guess i'm being a bit too harsh on ThatGuy. My point is the problem with the connotation of the phrase "the works after" that tends to lead to the misinterpretation of metaphysics (which i should give him more credit for including in there ). Plus the issue with the word "magic" in SR, which isn't actually "magic" as we think of it.

Meh, my original question was answered. If people want to talk about something that originally was vaguely related to the topic, then that's fine. Heck, I don't care any which way - my question was, after all, answered.

Somebody asked for etymology, so I gave it. What's so wrong with that?

Because the word didn't come to us from the greek parts directly, it came from the title of a book.

Once upon a time there was a greek guy named Aristotle, and he decided to write a bunch of books. To paraphrase, one of volumes was about the things of the world that were obvious, and then he wrote another volume after that dealt with reasoned knowledge about the less obvious.

Use of it as more a word followed from the book title about 300 years later by another greek guy who was acting as a sort of a colour commentary librarian. From there it came to mean the philosophy aimed at understanding the fundemental nature of all reality. With the other, non-academic meaning we have today branching off from there later on.

That is why using a simple literal direct greek translation of the parts as the whole of an etymology becomes an issue at times. Such things are why in the King James bible a Babalonian king was accidentally assigned the name Lucifer (the morningstar) and mistaken as another personna of Satan. *shrug*

Like i said, i was harsher on you than i should have been. Sorry about that.