Full Version: Armament of UCAS/CAS Soldiers in 2070
Oh, okay. Sure, I believe that. There's a big difference between never seeing a magician and never seeing a magician doing magic.
Even if 1% of the population has a Magic rating of at least 1, that doesn't mean they A) know how to use it, B) use it in public, or C) can use it at a level that would be noticeable.
So out of my graduating high school class of about 400, I'm going to be generous and give 4 of them a Magic rating of 1. *poof*
Now in order to get their mojo working, they need to go out and learn Spellcasting and/or Summoning, or figure out how to adopt their Adept powers. The "lucky" ones with mentor spirits might get direct-from-the-source tutelage. Others would probably have to get enrolled in some special corporate recruiting drive or private school.
So out of those 4 people, which ones will have the chance to hone their ability and the drive (and Attributes) to succeed? By "succeed," I mean "use magic well enough to where it'd be noticeable."
A Magic:1 guy can, after learning the Spellcasting skill (from somewhere), at best toss out a Force 2 spell. That spell would take a Threshold of 4 for someone to notice, and your average guy walking down the street is defaulting to his Intuition of 3 -- therefore rolling 2 dice and utterly failing to notice such things.
Then there's the fact that the people who are both talented and skilled will quickly get snatched up by corps or organizations, thereby keeping them safe and out of the public eye for the most part.
~~~~~
So, yeah, I find that "less than 1%" number believable without stretching too hard.
So out of my graduating high school class of about 400, I'm going to be generous and give 4 of them a Magic rating of 1. *poof*
Now in order to get their mojo working, they need to go out and learn Spellcasting and/or Summoning, or figure out how to adopt their Adept powers. The "lucky" ones with mentor spirits might get direct-from-the-source tutelage. Others would probably have to get enrolled in some special corporate recruiting drive or private school.
So out of those 4 people, which ones will have the chance to hone their ability and the drive (and Attributes) to succeed? By "succeed," I mean "use magic well enough to where it'd be noticeable."
A Magic:1 guy can, after learning the Spellcasting skill (from somewhere), at best toss out a Force 2 spell. That spell would take a Threshold of 4 for someone to notice, and your average guy walking down the street is defaulting to his Intuition of 3 -- therefore rolling 2 dice and utterly failing to notice such things.
Then there's the fact that the people who are both talented and skilled will quickly get snatched up by corps or organizations, thereby keeping them safe and out of the public eye for the most part.
~~~~~
So, yeah, I find that "less than 1%" number believable without stretching too hard.
I agree with Azralon's assessment about the population and numbers.
Going back to mages in a battalion, I'm sure the commanders would not use a mage that would put them at risk, like shooting off that lightning bolt. That's just way too much attention getting. Demoralizing? Remember, not only in the shadows, but I'm sure even the military will have a policy of Geek the Mage first when the opportunity presents itself and nothing is as noticeable as a mage firing off that lightning bolt on the battlefield.
The mages are great for support and dealing with magical threats. The use as spotters and such, well, there's drones that can be used and are cheaper to replace than a mage. One thing would be the military won't pass up on aspected magicians, especially conjurers. Earth elementals that can help create berms and ditches, air elementals for movement, all very good and helpful.
Another use would be in intelligence, have them learn mind probe and such for interrogations and such. Well, I guess it depends on the Srun world rules on the Geneva convention and such for treating prisoners and enemy combatants.
Going back to mages in a battalion, I'm sure the commanders would not use a mage that would put them at risk, like shooting off that lightning bolt. That's just way too much attention getting. Demoralizing? Remember, not only in the shadows, but I'm sure even the military will have a policy of Geek the Mage first when the opportunity presents itself and nothing is as noticeable as a mage firing off that lightning bolt on the battlefield.
The mages are great for support and dealing with magical threats. The use as spotters and such, well, there's drones that can be used and are cheaper to replace than a mage. One thing would be the military won't pass up on aspected magicians, especially conjurers. Earth elementals that can help create berms and ditches, air elementals for movement, all very good and helpful.
Another use would be in intelligence, have them learn mind probe and such for interrogations and such. Well, I guess it depends on the Srun world rules on the Geneva convention and such for treating prisoners and enemy combatants.
Just because I'm bored at work with nothing better to do:
[ Spoiler ]
that makes more sense. lots of people know or have met magicians/adepts without ever having seen them do anything special. i was in the army--lots of people know me, but most of them never saw me in uniform.
Hmmm... nice. Though, I can almost see some more drones integrated into the companies, something like a special group with several steel lynxes and other ground drones for scouting/clearing out buildings if need be and also as senry unit. I wonder if that's too expensive? To have another platoon or an additional couple of squads that are basically 2-3 riggers with lots of drones and probably another several guys who are comm/EW guys and also maintenance for all the drones. Another IFV that only carries drones and another rigger or two?
| QUOTE (Apathy @ Dec 22 2005, 01:59 PM) |
| It'll be way easier for the Army to re-supply ATGMs than mages. If the mage gets injured overcasting elemental spells, who's going to provide astral recon? |
To resupply ATGMs to light infantry takes nothing, but I elect you to carry it. The mage does not have to over cast to take out a drone if he does it right, of course I am used to playing initiates, so overcasting with them would cripple a citymaster, so there is a caveat.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| For this I'd use spirits or drones. That mage is way too valuble in a support role to take too many chances of getting him gang banged by a spirit attack pack. |
And what of the Mage's own spirit complement? It's not just pissing about wasting time either you know. That falls into the mage's spiritual assets.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| A mech infantry battalion would have at least 36 dismount squads and over 300 troopers. These are usually dispersed enough that you can't see beyond your immediate neighboring squads. If a battalion only has 3 or 4 mages (and that is probably too generous) and you want to leave a couple in reserve to deal with astral threats, that leaves only a couple guys at most - where would you put them? |
Don't forget that we have other Mages who don't fit into support services who can be used in the PCAs. The average magic users are at Batallion Level, which, while it has about 300 troopers usually has more like 450 men all told. Don't forget non infantry assets have to be counted too. So I would say we are close to agreement on strength, 4-5 in my opinion. There is also one more thing, assets are set up at each level, so we have Regimental and Division Assets as well to draw from. The Regimental assets would be available as well, so probably an additional 6(?) mages handy there for the Batallions on the ground.
R3 is Rapid Reaction Radius, the area that can be quickly enough covered by the mage to put him on the scene before too much damage is done. Basically during astral recon you are able to identify the high traffic areas magic wise and put a few mages from Batallion in the area with thier complement of spells and spirits. If they figure there'll be trouble you can have one of the guys from Regiment keep an eye out too.
I would never put more than four mages in one area, or else a smart enemy will astrally look them up and call in an FAE style air strike to cripple your magical capability, then send in his spiritual assets to ruin/destroy ammo, food and fuel. So I spread them out, which means put them on the ground where they are much more mobile and able to respond real-time to the situations they would likely encounter. It also means that they are surrounded by guys with a pile of fighting hardware, who look just like them. The best way to protect them is surround them with friends with "guns" and a similar appearance. Imagine trying to pick the mage (who may not be there) out of the astral turmoil of 106 (even mundane) signatures in a war zone. Make those Assensing rolls please.
In short I am about spreading the assets out so that they are harder to hit.
I'm noticing that I never actually responded to the original question for the thread.
Generic Trooper Gear
I tend to not assign lots and lots of milsec armor for standard troops because it would cut down on their endurance and manueverability. MPs in an occupation situation (a la Iraq) might easily get Heavy-duty hardened armor, because they're not running around as much as just standing there acting like targets.
Generic Trooper Gear
- Helmet with built-in Micro-transciever 5, Sound Suppression, Chemical Seal, sliding visor with Display Link, Flare Compensation, Low Light.
- Equivalent of Rapid Transit Jumpsuit (2/1) with Chemical Seal.
- Armor Jacket (8/6) when outside of vehicle.
- AK-97 Carbine. (or equivalent weapon of domestic manufacture)
- Infantry replace Carbine with full sized AK-97 (or equivalent)
- Officers replace Carbine with Predator or Manhunter
I tend to not assign lots and lots of milsec armor for standard troops because it would cut down on their endurance and manueverability. MPs in an occupation situation (a la Iraq) might easily get Heavy-duty hardened armor, because they're not running around as much as just standing there acting like targets.
| QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Dec 22 2005, 07:15 AM) |
| And some people probably do it for the patriotism, and the chance to legally learn fireball. |
So? Those are the same reasons why people would join the corp forces.
Very true actually, some of the people who grew up in a corp environment are totally devoted to that corp. Like those corp gangers in SOTA '64.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| I tend to not assign lots and lots of milsec armor for standard troops because it would cut down on their endurance and manueverability. MPs in an occupation situation (a la Iraq) might easily get Heavy-duty hardened armor, because they're not running around as much as just standing there acting like targets. |
I would agree, especially considering the rules for wearing too much armour.
What about troops that are attached to a mechanized unit, those that use IFV's and such? I can see them wearing heavier armour depending on the mission.
I can see ones with 5 body wearing FBA because they have enough. But you're right about weaker members wearing weaker armor with a good modded helmet.
Yet another reason to pick Orcs - they can wear the good stuff without penalty!
Yet another reason to pick Orcs - they can wear the good stuff without penalty!
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Dec 22 2005, 03:45 PM) |
| What about troops that are attached to a mechanized unit, those that use IFV's and such? I can see them wearing heavier armour depending on the mission. |
Just my opinion, but I'd say "no", because
- When they're inside the vehicle, they're protected by the vehicle's armor, and don't really need it. (recognize that some of you don't agree with this)
- When they're outside, they need to be just as manuverable as the light infantry guys.
| QUOTE (Lord Ben) |
| Yet another reason to pick Orcs - they can wear the good stuff without penalty! |
So here I am with my racial stereotyping and discriminatory practices. Feel free to call HR on me.
Humans: Command staff. It's good for overall combat efficiency when the guys making the Perception and Leadership rolls have an extra point of Edge.
Elves: Recon & sniper duty. Probably a fair amount of them in the command personnel, the smarmy bastiches.
Dwarves: Armor & air support duty. Easier to fit in cramped spaces and hardy enough to deal with it.
Orks: Infantry duty. They make perfect grunts (pun intended).
Trolls: Shock troops. Cuz, yeah.
| QUOTE (New Seattle @ 78) |
| The Metroplex Guard has four-count 'em, four-magicians, one for each combat battalion and one assigned to the command regiment. ... When General Colloton assumed command, she brought in a detachment of forty magicians-almost two-thirds of the First Infantry Division's entire magical force. |
Most of JTF Seattle's is, close as I can tell, comprised of one of the 1st ID's brigades, plus extra mages (Colloton was a 1st ID ADC). There are probably 15-20 or so magicians to a brigade (depends on how many you'd assign to 4th BDE), plus the division support units. Without regard to the specific battalions, that's 3 or 4 magicians per battalion, which seems in line with the discussion here.
This would result in approximately 70-75 per division, and a total of ~350-375 magicians across the Army's five divisions, plus more for specialized units like special operations, intelligence, CID, and so on for maybe a grand total of 450-500 magicians in the UCAS Army, and fewer in the other branches.
So, of the UCAS's 200 million citizens there are maybe 2,000 magician-soldiers (and assuming 1% are magicians, of 2 million magicians 0.1% of them serve at a given time).
that's cause they're the "best of the best of the best"... 
| QUOTE (SL James @ Dec 22 2005, 04:09 PM) |
| So, of the UCAS's 200 million citizens there are maybe 2,000 magician-soldiers (and assuming 1% are magicians, of 2 million magicians 1% of them serve at a given time). |
2,000 is a tenth of a percent of 2,000,000, not a full percent.
Doesn't seem too bad to me. of the 200 million UCASers, only a third would be of prime military age, and 95% of those would get snatched up by the private sector. That takes us down to just over 3,000. Then some of them would turn out to be adepts.
So, if each average combat battalion has 4 mages, does that mean 4 magicians? How many aspected mages and adepts would be there, and what assignments do you think they'd get?
Provided the numbers are taken as something other than estimates, then, yeah "a lot" of soldiers could be magically active to some degree.
This is assuming that magical activity wouldn't skew the demographic towards or away from military careers.
Me, if I were integrating magic support into an existing military, I'd form special divisions to deal with those sorts of troops exclusively. They'd need special training and extra-special screening, not to mention special gear. I wouldn't diffuse them out among the normal troops, especially considering the utility of ritual magic.
This is assuming that magical activity wouldn't skew the demographic towards or away from military careers.
Me, if I were integrating magic support into an existing military, I'd form special divisions to deal with those sorts of troops exclusively. They'd need special training and extra-special screening, not to mention special gear. I wouldn't diffuse them out among the normal troops, especially considering the utility of ritual magic.
| QUOTE (Apathy @ Dec 22 2005, 03:50 PM) | ||
2,000 is a tenth of a percent of 2,000,000, not a full percent |
...
I knew that.
/looks around
What?
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Provided the numbers are taken as something other than estimates, then, yeah "a lot" of soldiers could be magically active to some degree. |
Oh, it's all estimation except for what I quoted.
| QUOTE |
| Me, if I were integrating magic support into an existing military, I'd form special divisions to deal with those sorts of troops exclusively. They'd need special training and extra-special screening, not to mention special gear. I wouldn't diffuse them out among the normal troops, especially considering the utility of ritual magic. |
In the novels (in some of the novels) and some sourcebooks (Year of the Comet comes to mind) the Army has a Thaumaturgical Corps which staffs out magicians like the JAG or Chaplain Corps staff out members to divisions, although in higher numbers and (one would hope for magicians) more integration.
Also, I have no idea what the breakdown is between full mages and adepts and aspected.
hmm, most of the time i would deploy adepts in squads similar to navy seals or similar. a mage however could be attached to larger groups as they can, with a bit of preperation, field a squad on their own (spirits and all that) and do fire support at the same time.
My initial guess is that your average mundane Army guy is very uneasy with the whole idea of Astral Space. It's a vulnerability that they have no way to counter, except by putting blind faith in the wierd guy that claims to be patrolling while he sleeps in the corner of the TOC. For this reason, I think they'd spend a lot of their magical efforts on defense, trying to protect themselves from the monster in the closet instead of going on the magical offensive. I think this would be exacerbated by the perception that their enemies (Indians, Elves and Aztechs) are stronger magically than they are, while they (CAS and/or UCAS) might have superior mundane equipment.
By the time of SR4, magic has been around about the same amount of time we've had radar. Name a military force (or individual) who is uncomfortable with it.
Yeah, but anybody can learn to understand and use radar.
| QUOTE (Apathy @ Dec 22 2005, 09:25 PM) |
| My initial guess is that your average mundane Army guy is very uneasy with the whole idea of Astral Space. It's a vulnerability that they have no way to counter, except by putting blind faith in the wierd guy that claims to be patrolling while he sleeps in the corner of the TOC. For this reason, I think they'd spend a lot of their magical efforts on defense, trying to protect themselves from the monster in the closet instead of going on the magical offensive. I think this would be exacerbated by the perception that their enemies (Indians, Elves and Aztechs) are stronger magically than they are, while they (CAS and/or UCAS) might have superior mundane equipment. |
UCAS!?!?!
I was talking British Army here...
Anyone can learn to understand and use magic too. They may not be able to cast it, but they can figure out how it works and they can know to protect the mage so they don't get squished by that guys spirit.
Technology can be pretty scary too. You mean that guy can put a little laser pointer on me and then we get blown up, and there's nothing we can do but look for little tiny signs? Same thing with magic. The signs are even more obvious unless they are astral, at which point they cannot cast physical spells and have to return to their bodies for coordinates.
I see magic use as heavily defensive as well. Lots of counterspelling, and adepts get used heavily for wards. (Did you know that anyone with Astral Perception can make wards. Yes that includes phys ads)
As for magicians, the percentage of magically active is the overall population. There will be greater amounts in different areas. Largely corporate research groups, security and military will all be big draws for mages, and there will be a greater than average amount there.
Technology can be pretty scary too. You mean that guy can put a little laser pointer on me and then we get blown up, and there's nothing we can do but look for little tiny signs? Same thing with magic. The signs are even more obvious unless they are astral, at which point they cannot cast physical spells and have to return to their bodies for coordinates.
I see magic use as heavily defensive as well. Lots of counterspelling, and adepts get used heavily for wards. (Did you know that anyone with Astral Perception can make wards. Yes that includes phys ads)
As for magicians, the percentage of magically active is the overall population. There will be greater amounts in different areas. Largely corporate research groups, security and military will all be big draws for mages, and there will be a greater than average amount there.
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