Full Version: How do we do we make two-weapon fighting matter?
| QUOTE (Critias @ Jan 2 2006, 02:59 AM) |
| EDIT -- I just found this, which shows what I'm talking about. Look at something through that hole. Then smoothly, while still staring at that "something" through the little hole, pull your hands in towards your face. You'll draw that hole up to your dominant eye, unless you're purposefully not doing so -- which is to say this worked with every archery class I ever taught, except for one or two goofy 12 year old kids who wanted to "prove" it didn't work. |
That one worked better. Now i know my dominant eye, and found out, why the other test didn't worked for me.
If i used my left hand (maybe i just held my hand wrong) the back of my hand blocked more of the object than my right hand, and vice versa. Ergo the eye which saw more (always the one on the other side) focused more clearly.
With this test, this effect didn't happen anymore.
Glad it could help. Not that, well, it's really much "help" to know which eye is dominant, unless you do any shooting (or unless you just have to know which eye is in charge, and which is riding bitch). But you know what I mean.
| QUOTE (Clyde) |
| Two weapon fighting can also be used to try to do damage on both tracks - i.e. stun and physical, by using different weapons and ammo. Also might be worth doing if you blow your edge for a one-off attack - hitting the dude with that chair leg you just grabbed before shanking him with your monoknife. In some ways, a game system has to be built around the stupid options to maintain player freedom - take it too far down the "Two gun shooting is useless so we won't include rules for it" road and you'll end up just pushing buttons on your XBOX. |
or you can just shoot the poor sap with some gel rounds, stun the shit out of him and then walk up close when he/she wakes up and blwo the shit out of them with live rounds.
Just make it personal that way.
| QUOTE (MaxMahem) |
| Have you actualy tried using the split die system in a game? I have a player who uses it and it works great, almost TO great. The player in question usualy uses Twin SMG's, has 5 in Automatics and 7 in Agility and ambidexterity, total of 12 dice. He splits the dice evenly (6 per gun), and then we add modifiers, his smartlink and/or lasersight do not apply, but his tracer ammo does. He fires twin short wide burts, which his recoil compensation full compensates (for the first burst), using tracer ammo. Giving him a total of 7 dice per gun. He get's an average of 2.3 successes, per gun. That's an average of 7.3P damage x2 or 14.6P. The average target doesn't doge (they are to busy shooting) and has an average agility of somewhere around 6 (probably less, but lets asume that). That means he would gets an average of 2 successes and be missed 2/3 of time EXCEPT that the player in question uses dual wide bursts. This subtracts 2 dice from his roll. Leaving him with only 4 dice and an average of 1.3 success, he gets hit for 12P on average. If the target looks likely to actively doge him he can switch into full auto mode and use a long burst. He goes down to 5 dice per gun (1.6 successes) but his target loses 4 dice from their dodge pool, against a non-dodging target this results in slightly less damge (11.3P), but he is more likely to hit a dodging target. If the character in question only used one gun, he would throw more dice (15), but would do less damage (8.6P on average) and narrow bursts would do worse. -------- Now these examples are pretty simple and assume no other modifiers apply (which usualy do), but even so a basic principle applies. If you can hit the target with half your pool, then you are generaly better off splitting the dice. Adepts with large very large pools to throw can be downright scarry. (Lucky for me, the my John-Wo wannbe character is a Sam, though I think throwing a dual wielding adept at him might be fun...) |
You know, in the game, SMGs are probably figured for recoil using two hands. I would say that they should have a penalty to compensate for the recoil when using anything bigger than a pistol one handed. I would apply an additional -2 to the dice due to the way anything besides a pistol will be balanced around the mag well (optimally for Assault weapons and SMGs so that the expenditure of ammo does not adversely effect the point of balance). And before anybody gets all "Uzi this and Ingram that", I recognize their design has the mag well in the grip, however they also have bolt assemblies that tend to be sleeved or adjacent the chamber/barrel and create a bit of movement. So I guess Uzis and Ingrams would only suffer a -1 die penalty due to the high barrel position relative to the grip. Even then, I wouldn't fire a pistol in a single handed grip unless it was out of desperation or I was using a tactical light, but then I would still use a Modified Weaver.
You could also try the "double uncompensated recoil" rule for using heavy weapons without a mount. Same basic principle, I assume - you can't stabilize the weapon.
| QUOTE (Hasaku) |
| You could also try the "double uncompensated recoil" rule for using heavy weapons without a mount. Same basic principle, I assume - you can't stabilize the weapon. |
With heavy weapons I go with the ruling of no regarding using them one handed.
Having used GPMGs, HMGs, Milan IIs & Carl Gustav 84s I know of which I speak.
I believe Hasaku meant to use the "double uncompensated recoil" rules for one-handedly used SMGs.
You forgot one very Important thing with two-gun shooting. It just looks friggin cool. So you pay the price for the extra coolness. And if any of you has ever tried shooting with two guns (I used 2 nine-mills from a friend at a shooting range once) you will know that the rules in sr4 prolly let you get of to easy. 
| QUOTE (Darkness) |
| I believe Hasaku meant to use the "double uncompensated recoil" rules for one-handedly used SMGs. |
Hmm...
That sounds like an idea...
I do it all the time at the video arcade, largely it's one hand bieng accurate and the other spraying wildly and occasionally hitting targets.
| QUOTE |
| You know, in the game, SMGs are probably figured for recoil using two hands. I would say that they should have a penalty to compensate for the recoil when using anything bigger than a pistol one handed. I would apply an additional -2 to the dice due to the way anything besides a pistol will be balanced around the mag well (optimally for Assault weapons and SMGs so that the expenditure of ammo does not adversely effect the point of balance). And before anybody gets all "Uzi this and Ingram that", I recognize their design has the mag well in the grip, however they also have bolt assemblies that tend to be sleeved or adjacent the chamber/barrel and create a bit of movement. So I guess Uzis and Ingrams would only suffer a -1 die penalty due to the high barrel position relative to the grip. Even then, I wouldn't fire a pistol in a single handed grip unless it was out of desperation or I was using a tactical light, but then I would still use a Modified Weaver. |
Well at least according to the rules on pg. 141, you can use a pistol or "SMG class" weapon in two hands without suffering a penalty, if you have ambidexterity. While double recoil does not apply, any uncompinsated recoil from one weapon is added to the other, creating effectivly the same thing.
In the case I posted however, the dual SMG's the character (Ayoto) uses have 2 points recoil compinsation standard, so he suffers no recoil effects on his first short burst.
I'm pretty sure this techniques effectivness is very unrealistic, but it is cinematic and cool. Gameplay wise it is margianly more effective than firing one weapon, if you can hit the target. Unless dual weilding means you will miss or have to sacrifice 9 dice or more, it is a better option. Of course to do this you have to spend 5BP to be ambidexterious and obviously cannot use the other hand that is weilding a weapon, so it sort of balances out.
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