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Grinder
Man, I'm so glad that none of the people I game with thinks in the way you do.
Rotbart van Dainig
In SR3, that stunt only needed a trauma dampener. wink.gif
Azralon
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 10 2006, 04:58 PM)
In SR3, that stunt only needed a trauma dampener. wink.gif

Outstanding.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Cain)
Yeah, but is that from your spent, or unspent Edge? It's not clear at all. If you've spent all your Edge pool for the session, your Edge stat is unchanged; burning Edge still carries a penalty. But if you allow that, then after players have spent all their Edge, they can still survive multiple direct THOR shots.

You are permanently lowering your attribute, not spending points. It can be done even if you've already spent all your edge for the day.

If your group is being hit by multiple THOR shots, I think you'll have bigger problems then whether or not they've spent their edge points for the day. If you're going to those lengths to kill them, just drop 30 THOR shots on them and it doesn't matter what their starting edge was or if it has to be spent or unspent edge you burn.
Cain
QUOTE
In SR3, that stunt only needed a trauma dampener.

Not if you were using the overdamage rules.
QUOTE
You are permanently lowering your attribute, not spending points. It can be done even if you've already spent all your edge for the day.

But then, you also run across the insta-success bit for burning Edge. So, not only can they withstand multiple THOR shots, they can get a critical success on their dodge roll to get into the nuclear shelter.
James McMurray
Okay, so you've stilled dropped a THOR on them. Like I said, there are probably other problems in the game at that point.

If they want to permanently lower their attribute to buy some successes I say go for it. Edge is a powerful ability, and will probably never be burned lightly.
Glyph
Cain - so, let me get this straight. You are simultaneously complaining that powerful NPCs are too easy to take down, and that it is too hard to challenge PCs? They should be just as vulnerable as that NPC is!

And while I dislike how low the hard caps are, and that you can reach them at char-gen, I do like the idea of having things max out eventually. Ultra-NPCs who are always "better" than the PCs are, to me, an inelegant and over-simplified way to challenge a group. With hard caps, such villains have to act more realistically. Instead of standing there no-selling everything like a Marvel super-villain, they have to do things like have bodyguards and magical support, pick the environment for the fight, use tactics, have escape routes, and so on. In other words, just like the PCs, they are still only human, and they need to stay sharp or they are toast!

As far as the villain being killed "too early", that is less likely with Edge. It also protects PCs from those "gunned down by a lowly ganger" moments. Burning Edge is a decent way to give a PC or an NPC another chance. And it is not "walking away from it". It is surviving to run another day, but not without consequences (being hospitalized, etc.).
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
In SR3, that stunt only needed a trauma dampener.

Not if you were using the overdamage rules.

Even then.

The maximum damage level you got from falling was D, after that, only power level increased.
At that point, there would be the possibility of overdamage - if falling damage would have net successes that could convert into extra damage.

Only, it didn't, so you were perfectly safe jumping from an airplane with nothing more than your trauma dampener.
If you did so without, you only risked to die if not getting medical attention.
Witness
QUOTE ("Glyph")
Ultra-NPCs who are always "better" than the PCs are, to me, an inelegant and over-simplified way to challenge a group.  With hard caps, such villains have to act more realistically.

This is a damn good point. I've found myself with an NPC who at some point will have to turn on the players (although they are aware of the imminent treachery). Good as this NPC is, he has absolutely no chance of simply killing them all. At first that really bothered me (well- not that I want to kill them but I want this guy to be a threat). But actually that's what'll hopefully make this story line and that character interesting. He's going to have to be more cunning.
Azralon
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 11 2006, 01:38 AM)
QUOTE
In SR3, that stunt only needed a trauma dampener.

Not if you were using the overdamage rules.

You mean the non-core optional rules supplied to mitigate the obvious lack of realism?

Man. Too bad that trick can never work again on any new editions. I guess SR4 just won't get any better as new expansion books come out.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Azralon)
You mean the non-core optional rules supplied to mitigate the obvious lack of realism?

You have a blank 126th page in your SR3 book?

The original question was about falling from orbit, though, which did not have any rules in the core book. The whole section where the rules for falling appear in the SR3Companion (Using Athletics) is pretty fucked up.
Azralon
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Azralon)
You mean the non-core optional rules supplied to mitigate the obvious lack of realism?

You have a blank 126th page in your SR3 book?

Nope, on that page it lists some optional rules that aren't part of the standard game. Almost as if the developers knew that the core rules wouldn't satisfy everyone.
Austere Emancipator
Rather central rules in the core book = core rules, right? _Optional_ core rules, but core rules nevertheless.
James McMurray
Check Rotbart's reply. Core or not, overdamage doesn't apply to falling because you max at a Deadly.
Austere Emancipator
Hence why I said "The whole section where the rules for falling appear in the SR3Companion (Using Athletics) is pretty fucked up."
James McMurray
Sorry, I thought the discussion was still aimed at the relevance of the overdamage rules, not the definition of "core."

Some people take "core" to mean "in the main book(s)." Others take it to mean "non-optional in the main book(s)." I fall into the latter category, just because I like that it makes rules easier to classify. If I tell my players we're using only core rules, they know to ignore anything optional or introduced in supplements.
Azralon
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 11 2006, 01:24 PM)
Rather central rules in the core book = core rules, right? _Optional_ core rules, but core rules nevertheless.

Sure, I'll grant you the semantics on "core" if you grant me the same on "standard."

Terminology tangles aside, my meaning was that overdamage rules -- which I and my group were happy to use -- were not a standard part of the basic SR3 package. Overdamage is fundamentally integrated into SR4's basics, and SR4 also has optional rules available in its one and only sourcebook released as of this writing.

My sarcasm-free point being: SR4 will improve as more material is released.

I dunno about anyone else, but I look forward to the martial arts rules that will eventually come out in a future expansion. Specific moves and styles are way cooler than just the "attack, evade, soak" basics we have now. But for the time being, they'll do.
Austere Emancipator
I didn't get that impression because Azralon's point seemed to be that such rules could be added on to SR4 like they were added on to SR3 -- only they weren't added to SR3, they were always there. If that wasn't the case, then my bad.

QUOTE (Azralon)
My sarcasm-free point being: SR4 will improve as more material is released.

Most likely. Although, considering what the Cannon Companion did to martial arts in SR3, I wouldn't keep my expectations too high for future melee rules. smile.gif
Azralon
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 11 2006, 01:41 PM)
I didn't get that impression because Azralon's point seemed to be that such rules could be added on to SR4 like they were added on to SR3 -- only they weren't added to SR3, they were always there. If that wasn't the case, then my bad.

I'll take the blame for the lack of clarity since I was making two points in the same post, and using sarcasm to muddy up both of them in the first place.

Point #1: Many game systems offer optional and/or advanced rules to provide playtested alternatives to people who aren't satisfied with just the standard ruleset. Overdamage is an example in SR3 (which was mentioned in another post). SR4 has its own optional rules offered for the same reason.

Point #2: Additional game rules will be released to expand upon and clarify the existing rules, likely making SR4 a better game than it stands with the one currently published book.
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