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Crusher Bob
Emo dosen't have a big pile of previous edition SR books to refer to, chill out.
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Get your tackhammer ready

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nipple size chart
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modifier for previous for children?
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vaginal stretch chart?!?!?!?! Modifiers for children????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!

BAD! BAD! BAD! BAD! BAD! BAD! BAD! BAD! BAD! BAD! BAD!


Bob we neet to hit the AUTHOR'S nutsack with a tackhammer, he should NEVER be allowed to have kids, or an erection, ever again
Taran
An epic review of the same game:

http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/fatal.html
Prospero
One thing I try to remember about Allies is that they are spirits. They sometimes try and emulate the things they see and feelings/knowledge they have from their master/creator, but they are still pretty alien to our world and are ignorant of even basic things like doorknobs, etc. I don't penalize a character by making the ally roll for everything, but its something to remember to add a little color to dealing with them.
Crusher Bob
This is why you can/should teach your ally the skill ‘KS: Human society’. So it doesn’t have to ask how to call a team-mate on the telephone, or what the traffic lights mean, or how much they should tip the bell-boy, or whatever. Skills during summoning are incredibly cheap, drop a few points more of karma.
Lindt
It burns...... oh for the love of all that is good and ANYTHING... it BURNS!
Dale
I can not tell a lie - I sleep with mine.
Dale
And YES - she's a woman.
hyzmarca
Reading the review of FATAL it seems tat some of the rules may be might be useful in an Ancients vs Spikes prision game (the PCs are the Ancients, of course).
Findar
If you give the ally a form of your favorite edged weapon then you have a weapon that can never be taken from you.
emo samurai
If other people sleep with their allly spirits, then what does it say about you if you make yours a sword?
Lindt
Kinky...
Platinum
It's only kinky if it is a latex sword.
Lindt
So now your a LARPer with an ally spirit?

yeah, Im done now....
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (emo samurai)
If other people sleep with their allly spirits, then what does it say about you if you make yours a sword?

I like swords
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (emo samurai)
If other people sleep with their allly spirits, then what does it say about you if you make yours a sword?

Are you really sure you want to know the answers from some of these folks? wink.gif
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Prospero)
One thing I try to remember about Allies is that they are spirits. They sometimes try and emulate the things they see and feelings/knowledge they have from their master/creator, but they are still pretty alien to our world and are ignorant of even basic things like doorknobs, etc. I don't penalize a character by making the ally roll for everything, but its something to remember to add a little color to dealing with them.

I had a lot of fun when one of our players managed to summon an ally spirit with a very low (2) conjuring skill and barely pulled it off. The spirit was still pretty new, as was the character, with an average intelligence. So the spirit was pretty fresh "off the shelf" to. It took everything literally for the first few months of life. Really amusing when it started fighting another players ally under a couch after moving from under the table (summon told him to drink the other ally "under the table". of course, not wanting to be drank, the other ally fought back. Fight moved to under the couch.). He told him to take it "outside" so he took the very expensive couch outside. Good times
tisoz
QUOTE (Dawnshadow @ Apr 4 2006, 03:35 PM)
Give the ally spirit spells at the highest force you ever intend to when you give them to it the first time.

The rules concerning astral quests to reduce the karma for learning a spell do not make any distinction between learning the spell for yourself or learning the spell for your ally spirit, so I allow the reduced karma cost.

QUOTE (Dawnshadow @ Apr 4 2006, 03:35 PM)
Do as much sorcery and mental attribute training as possible before conjuring the ally.

... and get that cerebral booster installed before the summoning.

There has been arguement of whether or not sustained Increase Attribute spells for Charisma, Intelligence and Willpower would apply. Some say the spirits attributes are equal to the summoners at the summoning while others contend they are not the summoners actual permanent attributes.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Apr 4 2006, 11:42 PM)

Screw that

step 1: Summon force 1 spirit of man (City spirit or hearth recommended for street savvy)
Step 2: Say 'You are Free'

This is why I do not allow it to be this simple to create a free spirit.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Apr 4 2006, 11:42 PM)

Step 4: Rinse and repeat steps 1-3 until you get one with the wealth power

Average chance of 1 in 12, so the world should have billions of free spirits as every shaman or wujen will be doing this. Actually every magician that can conjure a spirit that can go free, it just may cost some a bit more to start with.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Apr 4 2006, 11:42 PM)
Step 7: Get it to feed the karma back to you (Karmic Arbitrage)

I'm with fistandantilus3.0 on this one, I'd need to see that rule. As far as I know, the rule youy are citing is specific for giving karma to a free spirit, not vice versa.

I'll add to the idea though. If you bind more than one free spirit, you could use the conjuring ritual while ordering the spirits to swap karma back and forth to each other.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Apr 4 2006, 11:42 PM)
Step 10: initiate, a lot
Step 11: Watch as spirit grows but is still your bitch

Do you mean have the spirit increase its force, as hyzmarka meant? I am not sure how initiating really increases your power beyond other uses of karma, wheras I do see how the spirit's power increases by raising its force.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Apr 4 2006, 11:42 PM)
Step 13: Abuse the 0 essence Cyberware trick in M&M your spirit can do it and give you all the cyber you could ever want, along with all the bio you can imagine all for 0 essence or bio index

Sorry, this is ignoring the limits in the rules. The number of positive options that can be listed is limited by the rating of the gear used or the doctor's Medicine Skill. The maximum gear rating is 8, so that is the absolute maximum regardless of Medicine rating. So the absolute maximum essence reduction is 40% if the surgery goes well enough to grant the 8 positive options this requires.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Apr 4 2006, 11:42 PM)
Step 15: get your spirit buddy to learn the Hidden life power and make sure he is force 75

Already disputed.



Bodak
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Step 1: Create a basic force 1 ally spirit with no extra abilities whatsoever.
Step 2: Look in the mirror and cast a deadly Stunbolt at yourself. If you cannot cast Stunbolt then simply ram a wall with your head or strangle yourself untill you pass out.
Step 3: Repeat step 2 untill the ally goes free
Step 4: Quest for its True Name and bind it
Step 5: Initiate and repeat until you have one with the Wealth power.
Step 6: Buy a AAA Megacorp with your unlimited funds.

Actually, it works best with Zombies since you don't have to invest a point of magic in them.


If you have created the ally then you assign it its name I believe, so there is no need to go on the Astral Quest to find its True Name. But as you say, you could not repeat step 2 often enough to get your wealth power before running out of Magic points (ie you could only do it 6 times unless you were an initiate). However, a Nosferatu could summon Allies indefinately as long as it kept feeding.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
step 1: Summon force 1 spirit of man (City spirit or hearth recommended for street savvy)
Step 2: Say 'You are Free'
Step 3 watch as spirit gets a force (TN4) test to become a free spirit instead of going home
Step 4: Rinse and repeat steps 1-3 until you get one with the wealth power


That seems a much more efficient way of doing it. I suspect most Totems would get fed up of their shaman screwing around with spirits only to set them free then hunt them down as soon as they make a home for themselves... but a mage should be fine doing this.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
Step 6: Feed it karma using the ritual for half price (You will succeed, it is force 1)
Step 7: Get it to feed the karma back to you (Karmic Arbitrage)


I haven't heard of this rule before either... do we have a reference for it yet?

QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
For the longest time, my force 2 ally had been a lifesaver.


QUOTE (Arkelias)
I've never understood why people think you need to dump 100+ karma into an ally spirit to make it worth having. My current character has a force three ally spirit. She cost 15 karma and a geas for the lost point of magic and is incredibly useful in a number of ways.


For one thing, your low-Force ally spirit is easier to be Banished by an enemy conjuror. If things go badly you could lose your ally. That's effectively a lost contact, lost karma, lost magic point, and lost power focus, all in one go.

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
Even a force three manabolt can be ugly with her having a six sorcery.


As a Force 3 spirit she has an effective Magic score of 3, so you could give her a drain-limited Exclusive Manabolt 5 and it would still only inflict drain to the stun track. Even if she does take damage, just spend two turns to send her to her home plane and back again, and she'll be at full health on both tracks.

QUOTE (emo samurai)
Can ally spirits gain karma themselves?

QUOTE (Straight Razor)
can you give you ally meta magics?

Ally spirits cannot do either of these things. Nor can they learn Conjuring, new skills, new spells, or additional Spirit Powers (like accident, movement, concealment, etc). It can be given more spells or skills if you perform another ritual on it. However, if you set an ally free, it takes your Magic point with it (so if it was a Familiar you lose that Magic Point at this point) and goes free. At that point it can gain karma on its own (or be given it by any character willing to part with Good karma) and increase its skills and spells. It might be able to learn Conjuring. If it finds another Free spirit willing to teach it metamagics, it could gain them. You could then go on an Astral quest to its home plane and defeat it with its True name (which you assigned it when you created it) at which point you can Bind it to you. Unless you'd made an arrangement with the spirit before that this was what you were going to do and it was fine with it, this is likely to put the spirit in a bad mood and that doesn't make a smooth partnership. It will try to break free whenever you take deadly stun or physical damage. But if you'd arranged it in advance and were going to fairly offer the spirit something it would want and benefit from it may well re-enter your service without resentment.

As several people have suggested, ally spirits can be used for sexual activities. This can be allowed as long as the player is respectful. Maybe he doesn't want to endanger a person by having a human wife who could be held hostage or killed in vengence for his illegal shadowrun activities. Having an ally wife who can disappear off to the safety of her own home plane at any point keeps her safe. So if he treats her well, she will likely not want to break free... though once she gains some personality and asks what the meaning or purpose of these nightly activities are, he better have a good explanation and a high Ettiquette roll. It's up to him to figure out what the spirit-equivalent is of taking her out to dinner or buying her new clothes, etc. On the other hand if he treats his ally like a prostitute or a girlfriend that's just what he'll get; pay today, gone tomorrow.

As for what I use ally spirits for... they have several uses. Healing you when you're badly hurt and don't want to risk the drain of healing yourself is an obvious one. Giving an ally your Talismongery and Alchemy skills means when you go out harvesting materials you're more likely to get what you need, more likely to avoid spoiling materials during refinement, and all that. It can even gather while you sleep if you let it. And it can carry on the enchanting process while you duck out to the shops or on a shadowrun without you having to risk the penalties of interrupting the enchanting process.

For petty theft it can be useful: just get it to materialise within a shop and pick up items and put them in the rubbish bin, or out the rubbish chute, then go and collect them. Or get it to open the front door if you like: it has no fingerprints.

There's also that pesky effect that while you are cruising around in astral space you cannot read anything on the physical plane. No problem! Have one of your ally's forms be a transparent glass marble, or something else easily missed by security sensors. Then you get it to materialise and you activate its power to let you look through its eyes (which only costs 1 karma and is well worth getting). Ahh so that's the maglock PIN to your safe? I see...

You can also ask your ally to buff you at times you don't want the hassle of sustaining a spell for a few rounds. For example, your ally could boost your charisma while you summon a spirit to reduce your drain, then drop the spell once it is done. This could also apply to Enhance Aim, Armour, or other such spells.

An ally is also useful as a distractor. Say you are fleeing the crime scene. You conspicuously run in front of a security camera into a small cupboard or a dark area. Then your ally (looking like you) runs out of said cupboard and down the passageway, through a few doors. You can then cast Imp Invisibility and Silence, maybe summon a spirit to Conceal you, and sneak out while all the corp guards / gangers race after your ally. At some point your ally makes elaborate gestures and goes 'invisible' (aka, leaves for its home plane). The only problem for this is that the ally will always appear identically in this form, irrespective of how you are currently dressed, what gear you are wearing and any additional scars / hairdo changes / signs of aging / etc you have since gained.

QUOTE (Findar)
If you give the ally a form of your favorite edged weapon then you have a weapon that can never be taken from you.


I have been wondering about allowing players to have an ally with a weapon as one of its forms. They would be required to purchase the weapon and build it into the ally formula so that it was no longer a freestanding weapon. And for ranged weapons they would have to carry the ammo themselves. The ally would materialise as the weapon, they would load it and use it. If the ally had been given a relevant build/repair skill it could even clean itself or fix itself if/when it jammed.
Dawnshadow
You never assign a True Name. Even to Allies -- they get their own when they go free.

And as for low force gets banished easy -- yes, it does. But low force is also easy to fetch back from the metaplanes. And it's not easy at all to destroy an ally, unless you're the conjurer. Much like any other spirit. Banishing just takes it out of action for 28-force days.
emo samurai
Why does there have to be a pragmatic reason to have sex with your ally spirit instead of normal people? Maybe she's literally bonded more deeply to your soul than pretty much anything.
James McMurray
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Why does there have to be a pragmatic reason to have sex with your ally spirit instead of normal people?

There doesn't. Unless someone's ally spirit is designed to not want to have sex with them and then raped there shouldn't be a problem. Heck, if you have any say in the personality, making the spirit a nympho and then hiring her out could be a quick way to get some cash. smile.gif
Bodak
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
You never assign a True Name. Even to Allies -- they get their own when they go free.

And as for low force gets banished easy -- yes, it does. But low force is also easy to fetch back from the metaplanes. And it's not easy at all to destroy an ally, unless you're the conjurer. Much like any other spirit. Banishing just takes it out of action for 28-force days.


Ah yes my mistake. MitS p114 says they gain their true name when they go free. I was recalling p108 which says their creator retains so much power over them some try to arrange the death of their former master. It is the list of forms, and the native metaplane, that the creator chooses when designing the ally.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
Heck, if you have any say in the personality, making the spirit a nympho and then hiring her out could be a quick way to get some cash.

You don't get to choose/design the personality. It starts off 'blank' and grows as the DM sees fit (an ally is an NPC) based on how it is treated and what it sees of the world (MitS end of p107). Also the idea of creating joygirl allies for cash has been suggested though allies in my game put to such service would try to go Free as soon as they could.

It's reasonable for allies to ask their creators (as their personality begins to develop) such questions as "who am I?", "why am I here?", "why do I do what I do?" If the answers to such questions go along the lines of "I want a friend who will stand by me who will help me and who I can help grow and learn and do fun things together with. I hope we can both benefit from this partnership and I am willing to invest part of everything we earn together in what you want" then the ally is likely to initially have a positive attitude towards theft, spywork, sex, melee combat and spellslinging/healing during runs, etc. But if the player's response is "I want to release endorfins and hormones in my brain for extremely brief periods occasionally without the use of BTL. Human women would have expectations from me whereas you don't. Human women would slap me and leave me whereas you can't. So I will use you when I want, how I want, for what I want. Obey me unquestioningly or I will banish you and summon a new ally" then that's a different matter entirely.

And sorry; Sense Link is 5 karma, not 1 as I previously said.
emo samurai
Dude, I want an ally spirit.
emo samurai
I was wondering, do ally spirits naturally start out trusting of their conjurers? And how do they respond to summoners who give them lots of choice? And do you get to invest your karma at initiation and let them choose how to spend it later?
James McMurray
Since they're called "Ally Spirits" I'd assume they usually trust you. Some situations might change that though. For instance, the demonologist whose ally spirit represents an extraplanar being he's summoned and bound.
emo samurai
What if you're a really nice guy who treats the ally spirit more like a child to be nurtured and taught? Will it grow resentful eventually?
James McMurray
It depends on if it really is childlike and trusting. If so, then probably not, at least not until it hits puberty. If it has the mentality of an adult and you treat it like a child it will probably become upset rather rapidly. It all dpends on the situation.

Basically the GM should decide upon the ally spirit's personality, based upon the means by which it was summoned or created, the summoner's personality, and his own ideas of what spirits are like in his game plus what will be fun for the group. It's that personality and how the players interact with it which will determine whether the spirit is trusting, friendly, resentful, or hellbent on twisting every command possible.
emo samurai
So... would being summoned during the initiation ritual be different than being summoned regularly? And how would you judge whether or not to make the spirit start out childlike?
mfb
it's up to the GM and the player. there's no real guidelines even possible. you just do what sounds right.
emo samurai
I was wondering: is it possible to give it every elemental attack and resistance in the game, give it a Big Fucking Hydra form, and allow it to make five elemental attacks at once? That would be awesome, like Gaav from Slayers awesome. You know, when he does that huge energy blast attack and you see the dragon heads pop up behind him.
James McMurray
It's probably possible. I don't have the books handy, but isn't it like a point buy system? If so then you may end up with weak elemental attacks to be able to squeeze them all in.

If you're thinking 5 headed 5 colored dragon with cold, fire, acid, electrciity, and gas breaths you're wanting Tiamat, a D&D staple since the 70's.
emo samurai
Isn't elemental attack in SR4 dependent on the Magic stat? Then you could just buy up the magic stat and tack on the elemental attacks and immunities. That is so easily broken.
James McMurray
It's impossible to break the ally spirit rules in SR4 because there are none. smile.gif
emo samurai
It WILL be... It.... will Be.
James McMurray
Put it down and step slowly away from the bong.
mfb
in SR3, at least, ally spirits did not get elemental attack powers. ally spirits are a unique type of spirt; you don't have a fire elemental ally spirit, or a spirit of man ally spirit. ally spirits don't get very many spirit-type powers--certainly no elemental attacks. they can learn and use sorcery, and thereby cast spells with elemental effects, but they don't have any inherent elemental powers.
emo samurai
Awww....
James McMurray
That just means you have to step outside the books into emo world, right? smile.gif
emo samurai
A POWERGAMING OPTION FOR EVERY MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD, AND A FREE SPRITE PUPPY IN THE HEAD OF EVERY TECHNOMANCER!!! I BELIEVE IN THE RIGHT TO BEAR POWER ARMOR AND THE FREEDOM OF MAGICAL INFORMATION!!! ALL ALLY SPIRITS HAVE THE RIGHT TO ALL FIVE ELEMENTAL RESISTANCES AND IMMUNITIES AND TO HAVE THEM BOUND TO A SINGLE OVERLOADED STATISTIC!!!
James McMurray
Like Agility?

I wouldn't have a problem with an elemental ally spirit in a regular game as long as it could be balanced. In an emo game the B word has a different meaning, but presumably still exists. You can give them sorcery and elemental spells, so elemental attacks shouldn't be too bad. Stick it at a set Force or perhaps make it cause drain and it's basically sorcerery with only one spell.

Can they have Innate Spell in SR3? If so, that was the SR3 version of Elemental Attack (kinda) in that creatures with fire breath (for example) would have Innate Spell (Flamethrower).
emo samurai
Yeah, Agility rocks. And can you channel ally spirits?
hyzmarca
You can only channel spirits that own you services (except for that one time that Talon channeled Lofwyr). Ally Spirits don't own services so they can't be channeled (except as a plot device in a novel).
emo samurai
Ally spirits could be said to owe you one BIG service.
Member #5177
Channeling eliminates all remaining services.
Lindt
Personally I have always thought of a freshly summoned ally spirit like a dog you just got from the pound. Odds are pretty good its going to be your friend if you treat it good. If you spent karma on it, dont abuse it (doing things like using it as a power foci counts as abuse), and take time ot play with it, it will be your friend for life. Just like a dog (with out all the messy pooping on the rug and shorter then yours life span).

No, you cant channel an ally spirit. however, I seem to recall its ability to summon spirits on its own...
emo samurai
Cool. And why is using it as a power focus abusing it?
Toptomcat
It's painful for the spirit.
emo samurai
Does using it like that count towards foci addiction? If so, then I have no reason to use it as such, as my character will be making several force 10 foci of AWESOME.
LinaInverse
From what I remember about ally spirits (SR3), using them as power foci isn't painful (look at entry for Aid Sorcery). Using them to stage Drain however is; that's the service that's explicitly listed as painful and will make them hate you.

And no; Aid Sorcery doesn't count for Foci addiction by canon rules.
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