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emo samurai
Dude, SL, I'm sorry if the following sounds provincial or SoCal teen, but really, this is the heart of the issue.

Stop being a dick.
FanGirl
QUOTE (SL James @ Apr 24 2006, 07:19 PM)
I've spent less than 20 writing a 5,000 word submission for Fanpro that I will now never submit because I don't want it to be associated in any fucking way with the crap that AH wrote.

Well, that's a silly reason not to submit a story. Obviously, I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with an "unoriginal" story. It's so much better if you can create a derivative and formulaic masterpiece than if you make an original and novel piece of crap. What's more, you came up with your idea independently of AH, so it's not even like you're copying from him! Go ahead and submit your story, as well as any other stories you're saving up because "somebody else did it first."

EDIT: And finally, there wouldn't be anything inherently wrong with your story being associated with AH's, either. Don't tell me you would be in any way upset or offended if someone said: "'James' Story' transcends 'Dog Days' by leaps and bounds."
emo samurai
How would it be associated? Do you have some fragging karmic bond to him forged out of pure seething hate?
ShadowDragon8685
No, I think it was forged by an angry mage who had it Quickened.

In any event, AH? Your "factual" stuff is teh rox and win, so I hope you understand when I say your fiction needs work. And by work, I mean that if it were on Newgrounds, I would have to in all good consience vote for it to be Blammed.

The set-up was long, and would not have been uncalled for, had the action not consisted of two pages of jumpy, jerky action. A little more description with the KE on the faccility, some close-calls would have been nice. Mr. J deserved to die, more than true, but neither was a melee weapon the proper choice, nor could he have reliably one-hit killed the J who was curled up in the fetal position. I'll grant, sometimes awesome rolls happen where you blow the rule of 6 out of the water, but still...

And killing Chester in the end was entirely wrong. "I can't control this thing?" That "thing" just waxed three KE to protect you. Sure he was going a little psycho on the corpses, but that behavior could be fixed - easy to fix now that he had behavioral regulators installed. Nobody seriously goes from "This is my dog now, I'm going to take care of him" to "rebar through teh head" in the space of one asphyxiation-until-unconciousness.

Really, an attack dog capable of geeking K-E animal control units? Invaluable asset to a Shadowrunner. You literally can't put a price on that kind of loyalty. Not without buying a complete drone, in which case you're sacrificing inteligence. That's the kind of dog that could rampage it's way through the wilderness from Seattle to NYC to find you. And he ends him with a rebar through the head?

And even if he's that much of a cold-hearted bastard with just enough mercy to do the deed cold, he then lacks the brainpower to pawn the animal's cyber for his next several month's Lifestyle? Not only is he a cold bastard with just enough mercy in him to be even more of a cold bastard, he's a STUPID cold bastard.
tisoz
When I read the character was named Sticks, I actually thought Shapcano had submitted something.

Also, its not really one DS buddy choosing to put it up on the SR site, it's more like one freelancer doing it for another freelancer. Shame on the published freelancers competing for an entry level spot. This is the perfect place to give some new contributors some exposure. This is comparable to a minor league baseball player playing in a coed softball league. ...and from the reviews, having an off day.
Shadow
Tisoz, anyone is more than welcome to submit. But they do say they give preference to published authors. From my correspondence in the past, and from some of the material put up there, I have assumed they have a lack of quality submissions. They do have new submission guide lines that differ vastly from their original guidelines.

I also think it is erroneous to assume that his story was not put through the submission process.
winterhawk11
QUOTE (tisoz)
When I read the character was named Sticks, I actually thought Shapcano had submitted something.

Also, its not really one DS buddy choosing to put it up on the SR site, it's more like one freelancer doing it for another freelancer.  Shame on the published freelancers competing for an entry level spot.  This is the perfect place to give some new contributors some exposure.  This is comparable to a minor league baseball player playing in a coed softball league.  ...and from the reviews, having an off day.

Okay, I've been quiet for quite awhile, but I'm going to step in and say a couple of things here. I hope that folks will take them in the spirit in which they were intended.

First, a few comments for tisoz:

This is most emphatically not a case of "one freelancer doing it for another freelancer." First of all, I inherited a stack of stories when I took over this job, and "Dog Days" was already in the editing process, which means that at least one other person (whose opinion about fiction I respect) thought it was good enough to spend time on. Yes, okay, the story had a few problems--a couple of which I didn't catch, several of which may not be problems at all (but rather matters of opinion) and a couple of which I don't really think are problems. Nonetheless, I don't believe it's in any way deserving of the crap people have been heaping on it in this forum. If you (the general 'you') don't like it, fine. That's perfectly cool. Nobody likes everything, nor is expected to.

Second, tisoz, I do take it as at least a bit of an insult that you're apparently accusing me of ignoring perfectly good submissions from non-freelancers in favor of those from freelancers. I've got quite a few stories in the pipeline right now. Some of them are very good. Some of them are average. Some are not so good. I don't look at the name on the story when I read it--I look at the story itself. If it's good, I don't care if it was written by Mike Stackpole or Joe Blow from the fourth grade--it's going to get considered. If it's not, it's not. That's the way it is. As it happens, at least so far, the freelancers' submissions have for the most part been pretty good (and I'll tell you this--they generally show a better understanding the concept of mechanics, grammar, and spelling than the many of the non-freelancer submission pool, which does matter).

Now, to SL James:

Dude, I haven't said anything to you because of that old adage about never getting into a mudfight with a pig (you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it), but even I have limits. Nearly every post I've seen from you has been crapping on somebody. You crap on FanPro. You crap on the freelancers. You crap on the editors. You crap on the books. It kinda makes me wonder why you still play this game at all, if you hate it so much, but hey, whatever floats your boat. But when you come in here and say, essentially, "Nyah, nyah, this story is the biggest piece of crap I've ever read...I could do better, of course, but I'm not going to bother because I'm too good for anything that would publish this crappy story," I call it one thing: a cop out. I'm getting pretty sick of your variations on "I'd submit something, but..." with the excuse du jour about why you aren't actually going to submit something. So I'm going to put a challenge to you.

I don't know you from the guy down the street. I have no idea what your real name is (other than assuming it's James, but there are a lot of Jameses). I've never met you. This means that I couldn't discriminate against your story if I wanted to (which I don't). So--

Shit or get off the pot. Submit a damned story. Dazzle me with your literary prowess. Prove to me that you're not just whining about other people's work because you're not capable of producing anything publishable on your own. I promise you--if it's good, I'll publish it.

But if you won't do this, and want to insist on merrily flinging crap at every available target, go for it. I can't stop you. Just please stop giving us the "You all suck and I could do better but I'm not gonna!" garbage. It's getting really tiresome.

Go ahead and rip me back if you must (though I wish you wouldn't, since flamewars aren't the most popular things around here with the admins). Do it in email if you want. I can take it. Or, even better--put your money where your mouth is and submit a story.
Thanee
Well, I found the short story to be quite a fun read. Had its flaws for sure (especially the ending; the staff is kinda weird, too), but hey, that doesn't make the whole story suck or anything.


One thing, I was wondering about, not sure if it has been addressed yet, didn't read every page here:

The J pays Sticks via his commlink. Doesn't that mean, that the transaction goes through official channels, being recorded and everything (with Stick's Fake SIN)?

Not sure if that is such a good idea for a shadowrunner to receive money... or a Johnson who is hiring one and does not want his company to know. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
coolgrafix
QUOTE (winterhawk11)
Okay, I've been quiet for quite awhile, but I'm going to step in and say a couple of things here. I hope that folks will take them in the spirit in which they were intended.

Well, just when I thought this thread was dying. LOL =)
coolgrafix
QUOTE (Thanee @ Apr 29 2006, 10:36 AM)
The J pays Sticks via his commlink. Doesn't that mean, that the transaction goes through official channels, being recorded and everything (with Stick's Fake SIN)?

Not sure if that is such a good idea for a shadowrunner to receive money... or a Johnsons who is hiring one and does not want his company to know. smile.gif

It seems like the bulk of all personal transactions that don't go through certified credsticks go through commlinks instead. The commlink stores a SIN (fake or real) and allows you access to the bank accounts associated with that SIN. The problem, as you have guessed, is that all normal transactions can be/are scrutinized as part of your available credit history. The Johnson and Sticks (like most off the books transactions like this) are probably using an offshore bank that does not report transaction histories. See below...

QUOTE
SR4 - Page 259
Online Accounts
The problem with most bank accounts, however, is that they require a SIN and they keep transaction records, meaning that all of your purchases create a datatrail. Naturally, however, enterprising capitalists and criminal institutions have risen to the challenge. Numerous “off shore” banks provide secure accounts to legitimate users, but unlike standard banks they keep their customer information private, do no share transaction data, and do not report to government authorities. Likewise, many criminal syndicates have their own black credit institutions online, providing accounts to anyone who pays the exorbitant fees, no questions asked, and even off ering lines of credit (just beware the legbreakers if you’re overdue).
FanGirl
QUOTE (winterhawk11)
Now, to SL James:

Dude, I haven't said anything to you because of that old adage about never getting into a mudfight with a pig (you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it), but even I have limits. Nearly every post I've seen from you has been crapping on somebody. You crap on FanPro. You crap on the freelancers. You crap on the editors. You crap on the books. It kinda makes me wonder why you still play this game at all, if you hate it so much, but hey, whatever floats your boat. But when you come in here and say, essentially, "Nyah, nyah, this story is the biggest piece of crap I've ever read...I could do better, of course, but I'm not going to bother because I'm too good for anything that would publish this crappy story," I call it one thing: a cop out. I'm getting pretty sick of your variations on "I'd submit something, but..." with the excuse du jour about why you aren't actually going to submit something. So I'm going to put a challenge to you.

I don't know you from the guy down the street. I have no idea what your real name is (other than assuming it's James, but there are a lot of Jameses). I've never met you. This means that I couldn't discriminate against your story if I wanted to (which I don't). So--

Shit or get off the pot. Submit a damned story. Dazzle me with your literary prowess. Prove to me that you're not just whining about other people's work because you're not capable of producing anything publishable on your own. I promise you--if it's good, I'll publish it.

But if you won't do this, and want to insist on merrily flinging crap at every available target, go for it. I can't stop you. Just please stop giving us the "You all suck and I could do better but I'm not gonna!" garbage. It's getting really tiresome.

Go ahead and rip me back if you must (though I wish you wouldn't, since flamewars aren't the most popular things around here with the admins). Do it in email if you want. I can take it. Or, even better--put your money where your mouth is and submit a story.

I think I'm in love with you. love.gif
Thanee
QUOTE (coolgrafix)
The Johnson and Sticks (like most off the books transactions like this) are probably using an offshore bank that does not report transaction histories. See below...

Thanks! That makes some sense.

Quite similar to using a certified credstick, really. The datatrail just goes to {void} then.

Bye
Thanee
tisoz
Cool, I'm gone for about a month and my first day back draw the wrath of winterhawk11. I really expected Synner to slam me back into place, but since I mention him now, he should pipe in soon. wink.gif

winterhawk11, thanks for addressing my small correction of DS buddy for freelancer buddy, but missing my point or ignoring it. I did not mean to imply you were showing favoritism in selecting stories. I did mean I feel it is shameful for a freelancer like yourself or AH to even want to submit. Do you need to stroke your ego? Surely the payment of a book is insignificant and can be procured through other freelancer assignments. I mention you two because you both have relatively well known web sites of your own where you could publish all the short stories you wish until your fingertips go numb. Why steal this opportunity from someone trying to break into the field? Competition would be good for the customer, but poor for the present authors.

The Shadowrun freelancer fraternity seems like a tight group and one hard to break into. These short story submissions seem the perfect place to solicit and discover new talent. You have explained the editor(s) do not care at all about exploiting the opportunity to discover new talent.

Buying and publishing the first work for this short story push from an established freelancer, which the reviews say has some problems, reinforces the notion of the old boy network and priority to previously published authors - whether it exists or not. Sorry you fail to see this or decided to ignore the implication when choosing the first story.

I have to go by the reviews so far because I have fallen asleep twice trying to read the story. There have also been a couple of sentences that I had to read 4 or 5 times to figure out exatly what the writer was saying, and wondering why he did not just say it. This leads to my one criticism so far - the language and syntax used speaks of an educated person with an extensive vocabulary or a handy thesaurus. However, the story is told in first person present tense from a starving chiphead street operative. The result is jarring, detracts from the mood/tone of the story, and contributes nothing. Yes, it would take a major rewrite to correct, but it needs it and should have been caught earlier, or the story rejected. So far, I have not encountered Sticks, only Straw Man, so my Shapcano comment may be incorrect based on the reports of other reviewers.

Everyone will soon be able to critique SLJames writing ability. He has submitted a piece of fiction to me. However, as in the past, the authors will remain anonymous until a winner is declared.
fistandantilus4.0
Remember though that the one book that AH has put his mark on (that I know of at least) Shadows of Latin America, didn't make it out the pipe. Also remember that the whole reason that AH writes all this stuff for SR, including the Ancient Files, is because he loves SR, and puts a lot of work in to it. He hasn't really gotten to put a lot of stuff out because of the tragedy (IMO) of SoLA. I was really looking forward to that book personally.

The whole reason AH is a freelancer is because he's been working at it for a long time. The reason Robyn is writing adventures now (and SB's) is because she's been writing SR for a long time. Even seen her home page and read her stories there? They're damn long, and more importantly good. Which means she puts a lot of time in to them. So why shouldn't they want to write if it's what got them started in the first place? Because they're 'official' now?

AH has written a lot of stuff. I love the rules things he's put out. Some of the fiction I've liked more than others. THe thing with the otaku kids was disturbing. The Story with FastJack during the crash was, IMO, awesome, and I wish that one was on the official SR page personally. As for DogDays, I had no idea who wrote it (apparetnly I didn't look that closely) before hand, and there were things that I did and did not like about it. What I found that I didn't like the most was that the character didn't do what I would have done in a game. So f**ing what. That seems to be most people's problem with the story. I still liked the story because it did what they're trying to do for SR4. Bring the power level down, give more examples of dystopia and dehumanization from cyber. Grit and some distrubing elements (cyber dog eating people, c'mon).

So chill, keep writing your stories, and let everyone else write theirs. I don't write personally. I draw. Half my drawings come out crap, quarter I keep to myself because I don't much approve of them. Some of them I show folks becuase I'm proud of them. I think I'm pretty good, but I haven't posted any of them here. Partly because it's a pain to burn a disc, bring it to work, and get my work CPU to decide to like it, so that I can up load it. Partly because I don't want to deal with all the crap that comes with posting something that is, to me ,that personal.

someone else's turn on the soap box.
winterhawk11
Hey, tisoz. That wasn't "wrath." If it was, there'd be more bad words and a lot more sarcasm. This is polite discourse. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (tisoz)
winterhawk11, thanks for addressing my small correction of DS buddy for freelancer buddy, but missing my point or ignoring it.  I did not mean to imply you were showing favoritism in selecting stories.  I did mean I feel it is shameful for a freelancer like yourself or AH to even want to submit.  Do you need to stroke your ego?  Surely the payment of a book is insignificant and can be procured through other freelancer assignments.  I mention you two because you both have relatively well known web sites of your own where you could publish all the short stories you wish until your fingertips go numb.  Why steal this opportunity from someone trying to break into the field?  Competition would be good for the customer, but poor for the present authors.


Well, first of all, I believe I'm not the only one here who might have missed the point. The SR web fiction isn't necessarily designed as a vehicle to help new writers break into the freelancer list. If that happens, that's wonderful. We can use some new blood. But that's not its primary purpose. That purpose is to publish some Shadowrun 4 fiction for people to read (and hopefully enjoy). Whether that comes from a freelancer or a nonfreelancer isn't relevant. As I've said many times before--if it's good, it gets considered. If it isn't, it gets politely rejected. If it's borderline, its author is asked for rewrites. Why did AH submit? I don't know--I'd guess it's because he had a story he wanted to tell. I truly doubt he's in it for the book, since he's been working on most of the latest books and gets comp copies already. But to accuse him of "stealing an opportunity" isn't really fair. He wrote a story. Elissa and I both liked it enough to work with him on it. He followed directions, he polished it up, he did what was asked of him. He treated the assignment like a professional one. I'm currently working with some other authors (some freelancer, some not) on upcoming stories, and they're doing the same thing.

QUOTE
The Shadowrun freelancer fraternity seems like a tight group and one hard to break into.  These short story submissions seem the perfect place to solicit and discover new talent.  You have explained the editor(s) do not care at all about exploiting this opportunity.


I don't understand what you mean by this. How have I explained that the editors don't care? Please read my paragraph above, because that's my answer. As to the "freelancer fraternity," while I'll agree that it isn't the easiest thing to get one's foot in the door, I can tell you what you can do to stay there once you do, because that part's really easy: Write well. Meet deadlines. Be willing to work with others and take both direction and constructive criticism. Know when to back down on pushing your agenda. Don't be obnoxious. That's about it, really. Once you're in and have proven that you can handle the assignments, believe me, we can use you.

QUOTE
Buying and publishing the first work for this short story push from an established freelancer, which the reviews say has some problems, reinforces the notion of the old boy network and priority to previously published authors - whether it exists or not.


Or it might imply that, at that particular point in time, that story was the best of the current crop of submissions. There's no malice here, and no favoritism. I personally didn't think the story was anywhere near as horrible as people here seem to, but it's easy to pick things apart from the sidelines. And that's fine--everyone has every right to criticize what's published. A little civility might be nice, but that's not something that can (or should) be compelled.

BTW, just as an aside: the "Sticks" in the story has no relationship to Shapcano's Sticks, nor was he meant to. He's one of the core characters listed on the fiction guidelines page.
tisoz
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Apr 30 2006, 12:42 AM)
The whole reason AH is a freelancer is because he's been working at it for a long time. The reason Robyn is writing adventures now (and SB's) is because she's been writing SR for a long time. Even seen her home page and read her stories there? They're damn long, and more importantly good. Which means she puts a lot of time in to them. So why shouldn't they want to write if it's what got them started in the first place? Because they're 'official' now?

I thought I pointed this out:
QUOTE (tisoz @ Apr 30 2006, 12:18 AM)
I mention you two because you both have relatively well known web sites of your own where you could publish all the short stories you wish until your fingertips go numb.

It is precisely because they are so prolific, well known and easily found on their own web site. If they want people to read their staory all they need do is post it. An announcement here or there such as SR Writer's Forum will have everyone remotely interested flocking to their site. As in my original post's analogy, it is like a minor league baseball player [SR Freelancer] feeling the need to compete in a coed softball league [SR website short story submission]. I'll push the analogy a buit further as the ballplayer having his personal, free admission, easily accessible trophy room [web site] where he could display his achievements.

What's their motivation? All my explanations are rather rude or non-flattering, so I'll omit them. I am not saying I nor no one else should be able to enjoy their work. I do enjoy it and know where I can find it.

QUOTE (winterhawk11 @ Apr 30 2006, 01:00 AM)
Hey, tisoz. That wasn't "wrath." If it was, there'd be more bad words and a lot more sarcasm. This is polite discourse.

Like I said, I am away for a month and my post causes you to break your silence (smile.gif):
QUOTE (winterhawk11)
Okay, I've been quiet for quite awhile, but I'm going to step in and say a couple of things here.

Whatever is said seems to get escalated to something else, and any time I state an opinion or write about the SR short story project, I have someone thinking I am bombing it. Sorry: free fiction = good.
fistandantilus4.0
I get what your saying, I just disagree. I guess my POV is that SR should be about really good flavor and depth, since that's what attracted me to it in the first place. I get bored watch baseball, much less minor league . So why would I want to want to watch a little league game if my kid isn't in it? Why would I want to read a story if it isn't the top quality available?

WH said that AH's was the best one that was there. What if the others were complete crap? I guess I'm jsut the type of guy that prefers good quality he knows to garbage that I don't. There's a reason I don't know the garbage. Just to be clear, I', not saying that every other submission was garbage. But if AH's was the best of them, why not put it out there for us? Besides, just because AH's made it, doesn't mean that everything else on WH's desk is going in the trash.
tisoz
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
I get what your saying, I just disagree. I guess my POV is that SR should be about really good flavor and depth, since that's what attracted me to it in the first place. I get bored watch baseball, much less minor league . So why would I want to want to watch a little league game if my kid isn't in it? Why would I want to read a story if it isn't the top quality available?

I'm not sure you get it, so fuck the analogy.

There are millionaire authors living the good life off the fruits of their labor, then there are full time authors able to support themselves off the fruits of their labor. Then there are Authors who supplement their income from the fruits of their labors. On the bottom end of this category are Shadowrun freelancers who are lucky to see actual money and from what I hear get a significant portion of their compensation in product. Then there are the authors involved in this short story project who are getting paid with an SR book.

Why would an author higher up on the foodchain want to compete with inferior opponents? Especially when said author could display his talent just as well and to about the same audience on his own?

To answer your question about watching a little league game if your kid wasn't in it - for love of the game, to see the blossoming of new talent, to see the joy of the youngsters succeeding against equal talent. What if the other team had fucking Randy Johnson pitching as a ringer? Why would Randy Johnson even want to play in such a game? So much for little league.

Why would you want to read a story that is not the top quality available? How do you know it is? How will you ever know if there are better stories and authors out there if the guys we have already read are the only ones to which we are exposed? I'm willing to wait and see, but so far it is the same old same old.
fistandantilus4.0
That would be one cool little league game actually, although I feel sorry for the kid catching.

I do understand what you're saying Tisoz. You feel that because they've already 'made it' that they shouldn't be the ones submitting to Fanpro to have their stories put up on the page. They should stand aside and let others give it a go and see what they can do. Get some fresh blood in and all that.

QUOTE (Winterhawk11)
The SR web fiction isn't necessarily designed as a vehicle to help new writers break into the freelancer list. If that happens, that's wonderful. We can use some new blood. But that's not its primary purpose


I like your idea of having people put their stories up on DS. I read them. I vote on them. It's a good way to get more stories, and I gloss over ones that I'm not really interested in. It's a good way to get more fiction. THat's what the srrpg fiction is. It isn't a way to get in to freelancing, although yeah, it probably does help. The way to get in is what Synner did, and I'm sure what Robyn did. Submit stuff to Rob to get it published in the books.

In the mean time, I don't mind Robyn going through the editing process to get the best stories at all. I also don't listen to college radio stations or check out local bands. Maybe I'm lazy because I'm content to pick what I like out of what I'm offered for the most part. But who cares, I get what I like.

I think I'm starting to ramble now, so I'll just let this one go. I've put in my two cents more times than was probably needed anyways, and I really don't want to argue/debate it back and forth endlessly with you. Agree to disagree or whatever I guess. Hope your morning's better than mine so far. What time zone are you in anyways?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
WH said that AH's was the best one that was there. What if the others were complete crap?

"Publish the best of a bad lot" is never a good strategy. If nothing's up to par, wait until something is and then put that up.

Either that or, since it's already been acknowledged that there's a review/feedback/editing cycle here, actually spend the god-damned time to fix the problems with the story. Dog Days is still in need of serious work, but it is by no means unsalvageable—most of the problems are technical errors rather than fundamental storyline issues. If they'd just sent the story back a few more times, we might all be spared this discussion.

~J
James McMurray
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If they'd just sent the story back a few more times, we might all be spared this discussion.

Doubtful. There will always be people to bag on something, especially when it gets posted to a board like DS. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
Yes, but the discussion is frequently a lot shorter when the legitimate issues are fewer.

~J
eralston
Pohl's Law: Nothing is so good that someone, somewhere will not hate it

More of a life motto for me
Synner
QUOTE (tisoz @ Apr 30 2006, 10:08 AM)
Why would an author higher up on the foodchain want to compete with inferior opponents?  Especially when said author could display his talent just as well and to about the same audience on his own?

Maybe because, as has previously repeatedly been explained, this is not a competition. Ancient didn't take anyone's "spot" or "prize", nor was he competing with anyone.

The "author higher up" (who btw has not been officially published) saw an opportunity to write a story about one of the new core characters and ran with it. His work happened to be chosen for the website, like other pieces that have since been submitted. Others have been shot down (myself included), and the ones that have been picked will be published regardless of whether they are established freelancers or complete newcomers. Ancient just happened to be one of the first people to submit under the Open Call for Fiction submissions that were posted on the website, linked here on DSF and sent round to all the regular freelancers.

As to why he'd do it, that's simple too. Ancient felt like telling a story and the story happened to fit the submission outlines. He had a simple choice to make. Put it up on his website or try to get published and have his take on a character he likes become part of his official history. Pretty easy choice for a fanboy like Ancient.

I fully intend to eventually submit at least 2 stories, and as with previous pieces I've had published on the website I also intend to wave payment entirely. I'm not doing it for the money and I'm certainly not doing it for another feather in my cap. So why? Writing in sourcebook format puts a lot of restrictions of style, atmosphere and themes on my writing and I relish the opportunity to write "straight" fiction. Since I have neither the time nor the inclination to submit a full novel to Wizkids, the short storys are an interesting way to flex that particualr creative muscle - and if they're written why not offer them up? As far as I'm concerned we're never going to have enough SR fiction up, and as long as its good, I don't care if its mine nth published material or Joe Schmoe's first effort.
Kremlin KOA
Maybe I should submit some of my SR fictions

OTOH AH's story was good, except for the Metagamed ending.

Seriously AH, rework the Grammer, Redo the ending and you got a real winner waiting to be born in there

Shadow
Hell I have submitted two things and gotten shot down once. I am still trying though. I think AH getting web-published was awesome, and I congratulate anyone who gets even a tiny bit of recognition as a writer. Why? We don't do it to get rich, we do it because we love creating. Disparaging someone who has gotten published because you haven't smacks of bitterness.

Regardless of if you like the piece recognize that someone put a lot of work into it. It is there creation, good or bad. Try to think about how you would feel if it was your work. Or remember when it was your work.

Legitimate criticism is one thing, personal attacks are uncalled for.
SL James
Hm... I don't ever recall making a personal attack, but I guess when I comment about how awful a piece is that I want to burn my eyes out with lighter fluid, it may seem personal. But ... That's not really "personal" so much as being unable to differentiate between two completely different things, which is actually a pretty important ability to have if you're a writer.

Untitled Webfiction Never-Submission

I think I'll just link you to some extra fiction I currently have available online set before or immediately following the Crash as well, even if most are short ambience-setting pieces without any context here because, to quote the ever-sagacious Hilary Duff, "Why not?"

Another Night in Poland (The story I submitted for tisoz's contest)

First Time

A New Start

Absent Friends (674k 46-page PDF)

Espionage and the Shadows (317k 8-page PDF)

Happy Birthday

Buzzard Point 2061

Manhattan 2048

Reckoning

Washington 2054

These are all linked to Absent Friends and my post-Crash (post-AF) campaign:

The Fall's Gonna Kill You

Sharks in the Water

The Last Ghost

Complications

We'll Meet Again

Setback

Campaign pages (pay attention, this can get confusing. Reading the archives and AF is a must):

What A Week It Has Been (Connor)

The Last Time (Frank Trevayne)

Encore (Italy)

Against All Enemies (Frankie solo)

Catastrophe (Rache solo)

Into the Void (Frankie and Rache; then Rache solo)

Once More Into the Breach (Telnet, Pi, Tyn, and Line Noise) - DE should get a kick out of this

The Accidental Nexus (Fell)

To Live And Die in Seattle (William Running-Cloud)

Sabotage (The Muse)

Gone to Ground (Foster)

And now I wander back off to the real world.

You know, the sad thing is how in spite of everyone I know calling me nuts for caring, I was really excited to write this submission piece once I figured out how to meet the final criterion (adding a core character) until I read Dog Days. I think everyone and their dog (har har) knew that I hate the SR4 rules, but ... Man. I was really excited. I was even planning to send submissions for locations for future setting books (DC and Santa Fe, if you're curious, since I've lived there long enough to have deep contacts and a distinct perspective of both), but now? I hate to admit it, but they were right, and I was an idiot for caring.
tisoz
QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 30 2006, 08:32 PM)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Apr 30 2006, 10:08 AM)
Why would an author higher up on the foodchain want to compete with inferior opponents?  Especially when said author could display his talent just as well and to about the same audience on his own?

Maybe because, as has previously repeatedly been explained, this is not a competition. Ancient didn't take anyone's "spot" or "prize", nor was he competing with anyone.

Beating a dead horse again? I actually expected your silly comment instead of winterhawk11's. Everyone submitting is most assuredly competing to be published. (I do not believe I referred to payment as being a prize or award, so get your story straight.)

The issue some people have with the pubished product is how low the quality bar is set. This quality level is a result of the current crop of freelancers and the editors in control. The submission guidelines favor the current freelancers. The current freelancers have a personal interest in not seeing the quality level rise above their abilities. Let's see some better quality and some fresh talent.

QUOTE
The "author higher up" (who btw has not been officially published)

Then he is not really entitled to belong to the Dumpshock group Freelancer?
Synner
QUOTE (tisoz @ May 1 2006, 10:54 AM)
Beating a dead horse again?  I actually expected your silly comment instead on winterhawk11's.  Everyone submitting is most assuredly competing for a spot to be published.  (I do not believe I referred to payment as being a prize or award, so get your story straight.)

Not if everyone submitting actually has a chance of being "published" (as long as the material meets the criteria) and nobody's "spot" is taken. At best, people would be competing for being published first, but as far as FanPro is concerned if it's good enough it might not be published one week, but it will be published the next.

QUOTE
The issue some people have with the pubished product is how low the quality bar is set. This quality level is a result of the current crop of freelancers and he editors in control.  The submission guidelines favor the current freelancers.

Submissions always favor the current freelancers be it for fiction, sourcebooks or rulebooks - they're known quantities and the editors are familiar with qualities and flaws of their writing. That being said the submission guidelines were amended quite some time ago to reflect the fact that there is no bias involved in the website fiction and the editor responsible for it has repeatedly stated here that all submissions are welcome and will be reviewed on merit.

At a time when the freelancer circle was much tighter knit and harder to break into the EuroSBers (myself included) did break in solely on the SoE submission and with no prior experience or reference. I actually got to do Lofwyr for DotSW on the strength of my SoE submission rather than any prior reference.

So no, as I've told numerous aspiring fanboys who've asked for advice over the past 3 years, the "freelancer club" is not hard to break into if you have interest and the ideas. It just takes persistence and knowing how to make the best of opportunities when they crop up.

QUOTE
The current freelancers have a personal interest in not seeing the quality level rise above their abilities.  Let's see some better quality and some fresh talent.

I was wondering if that's what you were getting at. Obviously, Ancient was invited to join the gang because we thought his material and his knowledge of the setting was "below average". That was probably the reason we recruited him for SoLA too, after all, it couldn't possibly be that someone saw a lot of potential in what he's written and self-published.

Would you even be getting your panties in a knot (and I don't mean Kage's or SL James whose issues are different) if Ancient didn't have Freelancer title under his Dumpshock nick? If this had been any other fanboy's first published work?

QUOTE
QUOTE
The "author higher up" (who btw has not been officially published)

Then he is not really entitled to belong to the Dumpshock group Freelancer?

As you've also been told Ancient entered this submission quite some time ago and it was held up for several reasons. He'd only worked on a small section of SoLA at the time (as well as helping out with continuity) and unfortunately that hasn't seen the light of day. Ancient was invited to help fact check continuity on System Failure, but has no writing credits on any official FanPro material that I know of except Dog Days. In the meantime he has submitted and his proposals have been picked up for future sourcebooks which is why he has since earned his Dumpshock Freelancer title.

For the record and whether you believe it or not, you are also seriously overestimating both the number of non-freelancer submissions we get for any given project and the quality of those. We have been actively hunting for fresh blood (as will become evident in the upcoming core books) - finding it is a whole different issue. That was one of the reasons why the open call submission guidelines were posted in the first place.

A lot of great potential new talent was lost with the shift to SR4, some people like Kage were disenchanted with the new direction, others like mfb disenchanted with the new mechanics, and others yet like SL James off on their very own anti-FanPro crusade. Fortunately others were energized and motivated by the change and after an initial familiarization period we're starting to see a lot more submissions from newcomers.
tisoz
QUOTE (Synner @ May 1 2006, 06:14 AM)
Not if everyone submitting actually has a chance of being "published" (as long as the material meets the criteria) and nobody's "spot" is taken. At best, people would be competing for being published first

Are these not examples of "spot"? Perhaps you should define whatever other example of "spot" you mean to nitpick about?

QUOTE

QUOTE
The issue some people have with the pubished product is how low the quality bar is set. This quality level is a result of the current crop of freelancers and he editors in control.  The submission guidelines favor the current freelancers.

Submissions always favor the current freelancers be it for fiction, sourcebooks or rulebooks - they're known quantities and the editors are familiar with qualities and flaws of their writing. That being said the submission guidelines were amended quite some time ago to reflect the fact that there is no bias involved in the website fiction and the editor responsible for it has repeatedly stated here that all submissions are welcome and will be reviewed on merit.

At a time when the freelancer circle was much tighter knit and harder to break into the EuroSBers (myself included) did break in solely on the SoE submission and with no prior experience or reference. I actually got to do Lofwyr for DotSW on the strength of my SoE submission rather than any prior reference.

So no, as I've told numerous aspiring fanboys who've asked for advice over the past 3 years, the "freelancer club" is not hard to break into if you have interest and the ideas. It just takes persistence and knowing how to make the best of opportunities when they crop up.

QUOTE
The current freelancers have a personal interest in not seeing the quality level rise above their abilities.  Let's see some better quality and some fresh talent.

I was wondering if that's what you were getting at. Obviously, Ancient was invited to join the gang because we thought his material and his knowledge of the setting was "below average". That was probably the reason we recruited him for SoLA too, after all, it couldn't possibly be that someone saw a lot of potential in what he's written and self-published.

Would you even be getting your panties in a knot (and I don't mean Kage's or SL James whose issues are different) if Ancient didn't have Freelancer title under his Dumpshock nick? If this had been any other fanboy's first published work?

QUOTE
QUOTE
The "author higher up" (who btw has not been officially published)

Then he is not really entitled to belong to the Dumpshock group Freelancer?

As you've also been told Ancient entered this submission quite some time ago and it was held up for several reasons. He'd only worked on a small section of SoLA at the time (as well as helping out with continuity) and unfortunately that hasn't seen the light of day. Ancient was invited to help fact check continuity on System Failure, but has no writing credits on any official FanPro material that I know of except Dog Days. In the meantime he has submitted and his proposals have been picked up for future sourcebooks which is why he has since earned his Dumpshock Freelancer title.

sarcastic.gif In other words, he is not really a Freelancer? Or is everyone that had a short story published on the website entitled to that title? Interesting that he has displayed but apparently not earned the Freelancer title for the past year(?). sarcastic.gif (I hope the sarcasm emoticons convey that this is not really an issue for me, but I hate it when someone seems to be spouting BS, especially when it seems done just to make me look silly. smile.gif)

QUOTE
For the record and whether you believe it or not, you are also seriously overestimating both the number of non-freelancer submissions we get for any given project and the quality of those. We have been actively hunting for fresh blood (as will become evident in the upcoming core books)

I can believe it. Just look at how discouraging the guidelines were.

QUOTE
A lot of great potential new talent was lost with the shift to SR4,  some people like Kage were disenchanted with the new direction, others like mfb disenchanted with the new mechanics, and others yet like SL James off on their very own anti-FanPro crusade.

I wonder where you see me fitting, not as lost talent because I have no intention of submitting to FanPro/Wizkids/etc., but because I seem to draw the ire of you and winterhawk11. (It is a shame, too, as I had a good deal of respect for you both.) frown.gif

QUOTE
Fortunately others were energized and motivated by the change and after an initial familiarization period we're starting to see a lot more submissions from newcomers.

Unfortunately, after these bouts of bickering, I feel like saying good-bye to Dumpshock. An hour or so ago, I was tempted to announce a new deadline of a couple months away for everything outstanding, just so I could come back at that date, keep my word and conclude all competitions. Then fade away...
ShadowDragon8685
Aren't you guys blowing this out of proportion in the same way that dropping a hand grenade out of a cessna might be construed as a military bombing run?

Seriously. This is what happened: Ancient History tooted his horn and linked a story (his) to a target audience (Dumpshock). The Target Audience has, more or less, found the story lacking, and taken advantage of the closeness of the forum in question (Dumpshock forums, which are ironically not nessessarily what I meant by forum) to tell the author what they feel.


And now there's finger-pointing and accusations of an old boy network an all this? GRRAAFRGGBBLLGLE! Get the fuck over it and move on!

Tisoz, shut up. More than 99% of people who declare those public "I'm leaving" things wind up slinking back. The real people who leave are the ones who quietly do it in the night.

SL James, shut up. You don't like the Man, that's fine. At least have the courtesy to not turn our fiction-reviewing threads into your personal grievane-airing forum. There are other places for that - email, for example.

Synner, Winterhawk, shut up! You're feeding the trolls by responding to them!

There. Now that I've proven that I don't discriminate; I offend everyone equally, maybe we can get back to the bisuness at hand.

The bisuness of reading and reviewing Dog Days. Not the bisuness of debating groups or titles AH may or may not, as per your opinion, have earned, not the bisuness of throwing around accusations of a conspiracy or an old boy network. Not the bisuness of responding to said allegations.

I've already said my piece, but just to make it clearer, I'll re-iterate it. If "Dog Days" is in line and concomitant with FanPro's official stance on what an average Shadowrun should be like, and an average Shadowrunner should do, thanks for the dice system, see you around. Given that I'm one of those wierd people who shelled out cash-moolah for a pdf of On the Run and found it not lacking, I'm going to agree with Kagentenshi that putting out the best of a bad lot just to say you're getting fiction out the door is a disservice to those who have to read it.

And finally to AH, hey. We've all wrote lemons, it happens. Sometimes you're on the rebound from a bad experiance with chemicals or love. Sometimes you have an off day/week/month/year/decade. Sometimes your idea of what is good manages to be completely out of synch with the reality of what your intended fanbase thinks is good. This one is getting more critique than usual because it survived the editor's desk, but don't get down. Just keep writing your stuff and put it out. Just please, no more of Sticks. He's the antithesis of Shadowrunners as I know them. He operates alone, he has no cyber, is not apparently a mage or a physad, and he carries something as incredibly outdated as a staff in 2070. He uses the scope on a paintball gun to do his recon, for crying out loud. He's desperate for cash, but when fate throws him a windfall in the form of Chester, not only does he do the most crazy out-of-left-field thing I could think of, to the point that I had to re-read and re-re-read that part to be sure I was understanding that it was him and not some loonie with a rebar-throwing crossbow (You know who you are, freeman! Daaaamn yoouuu!) that did the deed.

And then, like any good money-desperate criminal-for-hire living on the edge of bankruptcy and becoming ghoul chow, he... Leaves the dog there? He dosen't take him and have his cyber recycled? The cyber that, even at crappy black-market-selling value could've kept him in a Low lifestyle for about four months? After doing the most stupid thing a Shadowrunner in his position could have done, he then goes and compounds the error by doing the most stupid thing a Shadowrunner in the position he just put himself into by rebaring the dog could have done? This guy dosen't deserve to be an Iconic character, he deserves the title Ghoul Chow.
Adam
QUOTE
Or is everyone that had a short story published on the website entitled to that title?

Administrative opinion: I hate the goddamned 'freelancer' tag and don't think it should appear on DSF, but it was added long ago and it's still around due to inertia. I don't lift a finger to add new people to the group and I don't expect it to survive the next forum upgrade.
PBTHHHHT
They way I view the runner in the story is that not all runners are the top of the line pros. If they all do the same thing as expected. I remember one line in Murphy's Law of combat:

'41. Professional soldiers are predictable; the world is full of dangerous amateurs.'

Same could be applied to said runner. As long as the described runner isn't a munchkin and isn't doing things that one could describe similar to metagaming, then I don't see what's wrong for them to make the different, or wrong as some of y'all see it, choices.

Also, can't y'all just get along? Simmer down now! Sheesh.
Synner
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Synner @ May 1 2006, 06:14 AM)
Not if everyone submitting actually has a chance of being "published" (as long as the material meets the criteria) and nobody's "spot" is taken. At best, people would be competing for being published first

Are these not examples of "spot"? Perhaps you should define whatever other example of "spot" you mean to nitpick about?


So you're suggesting the situation would somehow be different if Dog Days had been published second or third? Or if he'd written this piece under a pseudonym?

QUOTE
QUOTE
A lot of great potential new talent was lost with the shift to SR4,  some people like Kage were disenchanted with the new direction, others like mfb disenchanted with the new mechanics, and others yet like SL James off on their very own anti-FanPro crusade.

I wonder where you see me fitting, not as lost talent because I have no intention of submitting to FanPro/Wizkids/etc., but because I seem to draw the ire of you and winterhawk11. (It is a shame, too, as I had a good deal of respect for you both.) frown.gif

Honestly? I think you fit in Kage's group for the most part. As I noted elsewhere I for one appreciate your idea of running a webfiction contest and wish you all the luck with it, as for the rest of it, I'm not familiar enough with your work to evaluate whether you would have been an asset or not. I do acknowledge that at least a couple of talented individuals (they know who they are) I would like to have seen cross over to freelancing are no longer interested with the shift to SR4.

And tisoz, believe me you don't draw my ire, for the most part I'm past caring what you think. I will, however, go out of my way to reply when you consistently take the time to slam people I value and trust, slander their ethics, suggest bias where there is none, and generally just badmouth a process you obviously no nothing about. Why bother? Because they deserve it. And people who might want to submit to FanPro and read this stuff deserve to know how things work too so they aren't dissuaded by your false accusations.

QUOTE
The current freelancers have a personal interest in not seeing the quality level rise above their abilities.

This kind of slander is what pisses me off.

Those that know me from DSF and have taken the time to ask know full well how supportive and open to bringing in new blood I am. In fact, I like to think I'm partially responsible for bringing aboard several of the new talents that have come on the team over the past couple of years.

On numerous ocassions I've gone out of my way to provide advice and suggestions on pitching material and selling concepts. Several people did the same for me when I was toying with the idea of pitching so I know for a fact that this statement isn't only unfounded but pure BS.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Fortunately others were energized and motivated by the change and after an initial familiarization period we're starting to see a lot more submissions from newcomers.

Unfortunately, after these bouts of bickering, I feel like saying good-bye to Dumpshock. An hour or so ago, I was tempted to announce a new deadline of a couple months away for everything outstanding, just so I could come back at that date, keep my word and conclude all competitions. Then fade away...

Such a decision would be a pity and a loss to Dumpshock. Bickering is a default in every other thread on Dumpshock but had your comments been less provocative and less insulting maybe bickering would not have ensued.

QUOTE
QUOTE
For the record and whether you believe it or not, you are also seriously overestimating both the number of non-freelancer submissions we get for any given project and the quality of those. We have been actively hunting for fresh blood (as will become evident in the upcoming core books)

I can believe it. Just look at how discouraging the guidelines were.

This has nothing to do with discouraging guidelines and this is a situation that predates the open call for webfiction.
ShadowDragon8685
Synner, are you trying to prolong the flame-fest?

Seriously. This isen't even like most DSF arguments. This one is getting seriously personal and stupid, and it needs to be locked if it won't stop. None of you are helping, and not stopping the flame war is the worst thing you guys can do at the moment.

Rather like rebaring your loyal attack dog through the eye.
winterhawk11
QUOTE (SL James)
Hm... I don't ever recall making a personal attack, but I guess when I comment about how awful a piece is that I want to burn my eyes out with lighter fluid, it may seem personal. But ... That's not really "personal" so much as being unable to differentiate between two completely different things, which is actually a pretty important ability to have if you're a writer.

Untitled Webfiction Never-Submission


I'm going to stay out of most of this from now on because I don't really want to get into further arguments with folks (it's not very productive as a whole), but I will say this: it really is too bad that you feel this way. I read your submission, and it could have been a serious contender. If you can get over your ill feelings, I invite you to submit something else.
James McMurray
I couldn't read that whole thing. I couldn't even get far enough along that I figured out what the plot was about.

May I give some advice?

1) Get/use a thesaurus. Using the same word 2+ times in a paragraph makes for a repetitive feel that jars the reader out of their flow. For instance, in paragraph one you have "... darkness. Darkness..." Using the same word in a row is even worse than just using it repeatedly.

2) Action needs to be described, but having every other sentence formatted as "she <verb> <descriptive text>" gets incredibly old. Again, it's a matter of repetition.

3) Replace "shit" with "drek" or something similar. Modern cuss words aren't part of the standard SR universe.

And for the record, I'm not saying I'm a better writer, just that you've made some fairly common mistakes that can be easily rectified. Whether the story itself is any good I have no idea.
winterhawk11
QUOTE (James McMurray)
I couldn't read that whole thing. I couldn't even get far enough along that I figured out what the plot was about.

May I give some advice?

1) Get/use a thesaurus. Using the same word 2+ times in a paragraph makes for a repetitive feel that jars the reader out of their flow. For instance, in paragraph one you have "... darkness. Darkness..." Using the same word in a row is even worse than just using it repeatedly.

2) Action needs to be described, but having every other sentence formatted as "she <verb> <descriptive text>" gets incredibly old. Again, it's a matter of repetition.

3) Replace "shit" with "drek" or something similar. Modern cuss words aren't part of the standard SR universe.

And for the record, I'm not saying I'm a better writer, just that you've made some fairly common mistakes that can be easily rectified. Whether the story itself is any good I have no idea.

The story needs some editing, true. There were a few points where I wasn't entirely sure who was doing what to whom, and I certainly wasn't reading it to the level of trying to fix word-choice problems. When I look at stories as possibilities, the first thing I'm looking at is whether the person can write reasonably well. The best idea in the world is going to fall flat if the writer doesn't have the ability to implement it. After that, I look at whether the story is interesting--if the writer is decent, the story can (usually) be massaged.

That said, I thought this one showed possibility. That's all I'm saying. Not that I'd choose it to put on the website tomorrow, but that it's good enough that I'd take the time to work with the author on it.

QUOTE
3) Replace "shit" with "drek" or something similar. Modern cuss words aren't part of the standard SR universe.


Actually, yes they are. For SR4, we've switched over to real-world profanity.

James McMurray
Ah, I must have missed that. But I haven't read SR4 fiction, just the rule book. Nvermind then. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
In the SR4 main book, the first occurrence of the word "fuck" is on the sixth page. Curiously enough, the word "shit" does not seem to appear.

~J
James McMurray
It must be in the story section. I've avoided reading those because their positioning really pisses me off. Being located before the table of contents and after the index makes finding those things when you want them a pain in the ass. that's been fixed in the later printings though, so I might borrow a buddy's copy to read them. smile.gif
Adam
The fiction has not been moved in the later printings. The fiction after the index was only in the limited edition.
James McMurray
Ah, then I probably still won't read the first story. smile.gif
winterhawk11
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Ah, then I probably still won't read the first story. smile.gif

Bummer. That's sort of a silly reason not to read a story, but whatever works for you. I admit I might be biased, though. smile.gif
James McMurray
It's the only method of resistance I've got against the habit some game companies (Fanpro and WoD mainly) are getting into of putting stories in bad places. I'm glad to hear they got rid of the story after the index in the newer books. Not that it was a bad story, but making it hard to find the thing that's supposed to make things easy to find is a bit silly. smile.gif
winterhawk11
QUOTE (James McMurray)
It's the only method of resistance I've got against the habit some game companies (Fanpro and WoD mainly) are getting into of putting stories in bad places. I'm glad to hear they got rid of the story after the index in the newer books. Not that it was a bad story, but making it hard to find the thing that's supposed to make things easy to find is a bit silly. smile.gif

They didn't actually "get rid of it." It only appeared in the limited edition, which meant there weren't any newer versions of it.
James McMurray
Was it there? Is it there now? If yes and no, then it's been "gotten rid of." But the only reason I'm posting this semantics argument is because I'm bored. wink.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (James McMurray)
It's the only method of resistance I've got against the habit some game companies (Fanpro and WoD mainly) are getting into of putting stories in bad places.

It isn't a method of resistance, though—they've already got your money, the fact that you're not using part of what you paid for makes very little difference. Other than public decrial (which varies in effectiveness), your only real method of resistance is not paying them for books that do this (or not paying for books from people who do this at all). Short of demonstrating that this practice is or should be illegal, that's your sole path.

Whether or not you determine this offense to be worth that response is your decision smile.gif

~J
James McMurray
I didn't buy the book, I got it for GMing at Gencon, so not buying it wasn't an option. There aren't any other SR books out that currently do it (and precious few other books out period) so I can't refuse to buy those either. I don't buy the WoD books that do it, but I don't buy WoD books in general because the rest of my group usually buys two or three.
winterhawk11
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Was it there? Is it there now? If yes and no, then it's been "gotten rid of." But the only reason I'm posting this semantics argument is because I'm bored. wink.gif

Was it in the Limited Edition? Yes. Is it still in the Limited Edition? Yes. So it's still there.

I'm bored too, but I shouldn't be. I'm supposed to be working. biggrin.gif
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