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emo samurai
All I have to do is go "FREE KARMA FREE KARMA" and they'll jump on this like starving feral children.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (FanGirl)
I really want the chance to RP "downtime"--the times when I'm not actively running. This is a great article about roleplaying downtime. Anyway, I'm definitely going to try and do stuff with my team as we get to know each other better, like treat them to ice cream after a successful run. Why ice cream? Sometimes spending your free time in a bar can get old, especially when drinking, gambling, drinking, fighting, drinking, and drinking is not especially interesting to you. You need something wholesome and simple to balance out all that grit, and what could be more wholesome than ice cream?

You know, the irony of your statement is that ice cream is probably *more* wholesome in the SR world than it often would be at an ice cream parlor today. Basically, ice cream is bad for you because although it has a lot of calcium it has too much fat and too much sugar. People don't realize it but cheap ice cream is better for you than premium ice cream because it's thickened with carageenan (a seaweed product) instead of eggs and thus it actually contains dietary fiber. Add artificial sweeteners without sugar and you could probably get rid of a lot of the bad stuff that's in ice cream, especially if you did your best to make it low fat by minimizing the actual dairy ingredients.

IRL generally speaking I don't want to eat ice cream. It's funny because a lot of my fellow Americans out here in the Federated States of Micronesia are often buying ice cream and homemade frozen confections from stores and things as a respite from the tropical heat and humidity. Me, I haven't bought ice cream yet. That shit is bad for you.

The way I see it, if you're gonna take on so many calories and do something unhealthy, you might as well get something from it; you might as well drink alcohol. I'm a huge fan of mixed drinks. So that's sort of a reversal (bar>ice cream).

That being said, if I were magically transported by a Shadowrun novel into the Shadowrun universe I might eat ice cream if it failed to contain real dairy products. I'd eat fat free nutrasweet carageenan based ice cream any day because it's pretty much "guilt free".
eidolon
In my last game, the ratio of running/downtime was probably around 50/50. Good stuff.
emo samurai
Have you ever eaten ice cream? That stuff rocks. Or do you mean that the only ice cream you've ever eaten somebody else bought for you?
FanGirl
I use the term "wholesome" more in the sense of being associated with moral health than with physical health. I never said that ice cream wasn't bad for you nutritionally--it's just that the act of eating ice cream at an ice cream parlor is very innocuous and above-the-board, not to mention much safer than drinking at a runner bar. I'd expect that exchanges of blows and bullets are less frequent at ice cream parlors than they are at bars, even in an especially violent world like the SR universe.
emo samurai
I'm sure ice cream, if it's any good in Shadowrun, is really expensive. Then again, in Beggars in Spain, there was genemoded soy-based ice cream that tasted better than the "real" thing, so I don't know.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Have you ever eaten ice cream? That stuff rocks. Or do you mean that the only ice cream you've ever eaten somebody else bought for you?

I used to eat ice cream before I learned about health. I'll still eat it for a special occasion if someone buys it for me; I wouldn't want to refuse a gift in the setting of a special occasion unless I felt like I was literally in danger from that gift. (For example, if someone gave me a meat dish that had been prepared the night before and had been out on a counter all day; food poisoning can be truly horrific.)
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (FanGirl)
I use the term "wholesome" more in the sense of being associated with moral health than with physical health. I never said that ice cream wasn't bad for you nutritionally--it's just that the act of eating ice cream at an ice cream parlor is very innocuous and above-the-board, not to mention much safer than drinking at a runner bar. I'd expect that exchanges of blows and bullets are less frequent at ice cream parlors than they are at bars, even in an especially violent world like the SR universe.

I think it's all about attitude when you go into t3h seedy bar. I did my graduate classes at the Tulane University public health school in New Orleans pre-Katrina. Since I'm a miserly bastard who hates spending money *and* a great lover of alcohol I would often try to save money by going to the seediest, most-cheap looking bars off of Canal Street that I could find. In New Orleans there was a very high crime rate at that time, there were a lot of people out on the street who were clearly on crack, and there was a lot of poverty-centric racial tension.

Thing is, though, for the most part no one ever bothered me when I was buying my cheap beer at seedy bars. Once a delusional old lady on crack kissed the back of my neck, but as far as incidents in actual seedy bars goes that's it.

At the end of the day most people don't want anything bad to happen to them. Even if they want to mug someone or smack someone down they'll go for someone who looks weak instead of someone who looks like they might put up a fight.

Therefore, I would think that unless your shadowrunner inexplicably looks really weak or nervous he or she would do just fine in t3h shadowrunner bar. I mean, even if your character is the Bod 2 effeminite decker who looks fun to beat up chances are no one would bother to got beat up on him as long as he's got his heavy pistol. Even if you probably could beat him up why take the risk when all you wanted to do was get a few creds or let off some steam? Go beat up on some hobo outside who can't defend himself.
emo samurai
Or if your dude has light coming out of his hands and a watchful vaguely-human-shaped thing of pure fire constantly popping in and out of existence next to him.

And Wounded, are you military? And is it just me, or are there lots of military dudes on this board? I heard once that the armed forces is one of the biggest markets for RPG's; is this true?
FrostyNSO
Maybe your shadowrunner pals would like to sit around the space heater in your squat, swap stories, and pop open a few cans of protein pudding?
emo samurai
That does NOT look healthy.

And they just got nuyen.gif 20,000 for their last run; they should be able to eat better.
FrostyNSO
Actually it's pretty good tasting, and it beats the hell outta protein shakes all the time.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (emo samurai)


And Wounded, are you military?

Lol, no, I'm like military multiplied by negative one. I'm a Peace Corps volunteer. I'm not even allowed to own or operate a firearm. smile.gif
hyzmarca
Hot chocolate syrup and whiped cream together are like true love, only they are cheaper, more widely available, and usually last longer. But the only thing they go well with is ice cream.
SL James
In the Peace Corps? I'm shocked.
FanGirl
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I think it's all about attitude when you go into t3h seedy bar. I did my graduate classes at the Tulane University public health school in New Orleans pre-Katrina. Since I'm a miserly bastard who hates spending money *and* a great lover of alcohol I would often try to save money by going to the seediest, most-cheap looking bars off of Canal Street that I could find. In New Orleans there was a very high crime rate at that time, there were a lot of people out on the street who were clearly on crack, and there was a lot of poverty-centric racial tension.

Thing is, though, for the most part no one ever bothered me when I was buying my cheap beer at seedy bars. Once a delusional old lady on crack kissed the back of my neck, but as far as incidents in actual seedy bars goes that's it.

At the end of the day most people don't want anything bad to happen to them. Even if they want to mug someone or smack someone down they'll go for someone who looks weak instead of someone who looks like they might put up a fight.

I suppose you're right. . ..but then again, I'm a sheltered upper-middle class white girl who, in terms of street smarts, is downright retarded. If I went to one of your Canal Street bars, it would probably take all the willpower I could muster to keep myself from huddling under the nearest table and whimpering to myself. Thank God I don't have to do runner-type stuff in real life! smile.gif
Kremlin KOA
Damn it FanGirl. you are bringing out all my protective urges

STOP IT! please
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (SL James)
In the Peace Corps? I'm shocked.

One of my fellow volunteers said, "there's nothing peaceful about him!" because I'm interested in combative sports and I had some cheap pads and mouth guards shipped out so I can hold kickboxing classes with sparring. rotfl.gif

emo samurai
If you knew her in real life, this response would feel totally rational.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (emo samurai)
If you knew her in real life, this response would feel totally rational.

Well, if her pops is a lawyer she should learn about self defense law and carry a 1911. Then you only have to worry about her fumbling with her weapons when she's suddenly assaulted on the street at a time when the last thing she thought she'd be thinking about was fighting for her life. Because 1911s are t3h win.
FanGirl
I don't like guns.

Also, Dad is a law professor, not a lawyer. His main areas of expertise include blackmail (as has been already mentioned), extortion and bribery, inheritance law, and other similar subjects. More recently, he's been dabbling in empirical research and sociological-type stuff, and he contributes to a somewhat popular conservative political/legal blog. He is also a former lobster chef. biggrin.gif

Anyway, he hasn't really given me much in the way of self-defense lessons--except for the advice to always give up your valuables if you're being mugged, and to fight back and make the biggest scene possible if you're being abducted. He certainly hasn't gone into the details of self-defense law with me.
SL James
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (SL James @ May 7 2006, 11:14 PM)
In the Peace Corps? I'm shocked.

One of my fellow volunteers said, "there's nothing peaceful about him!" because I'm interested in combative sports and I had some cheap pads and mouth guards shipped out so I can hold kickboxing classes with sparring. rotfl.gif

I knew there was a reason I liked you (not in that way, you fucking preverts).
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (FanGirl)
I don't like guns.

Also, Dad is a law professor, not a lawyer. His main areas of expertise include blackmail (as has been already mentioned), extortion and bribery, inheritance law, and other similar subjects. More recently, he's been dabbling in empirical research and sociological-type stuff, and he contributes to a somewhat popular conservative political/legal blog. He is also a former lobster chef. biggrin.gif

Anyway, he hasn't really given me much in the way of self-defense lessons--except for the advice to always give up your valuables if you're being mugged, and to fight back and make the biggest scene possible if you're being abducted. He certainly hasn't gone into the details of self-defense law with me.

I was pleasantly surprised when I read this post because Professor Pa told his daughter to fight back in an abduction situation. I get so sick and tired of so-called experts telling people not to fight back but instead to roll over and be easy victims. I think that a lot of people *already* act like victims way too easily and we sure as hell don't need that being reinforced. Plus, peoples' general naivite and lack of toughness and mental aggression helps to facilitate the growth of bullshit consumerist martial arts in the US because people don't demand any real evidence that the techniques they're being taught are really effective or not.

I guess that anyone who used to be a chef can't be that bad. I really enjoy cooking myself.

Anyway, I do have one point of confusion, though. Why does Professor Pa tell you to fight against an abductor but then not cover the basic elements of self-defense law? (Requirement of retreat, equal amounts of force, self defense vs. revenge, castle doctrine, etc.) It's kind of good to know if you are seriously thinking about defending yourself.

Lastly, 1911s are really cool and very historical. Even if you don't like guns in general I think 1911s have a historical appeal to them that would make even the most left-leaning academic love them.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 7 2006, 11:11 PM)
QUOTE (SL James @ May 7 2006, 11:14 PM)
In the Peace Corps? I'm shocked.

One of my fellow volunteers said, "there's nothing peaceful about him!" because I'm interested in combative sports and I had some cheap pads and mouth guards shipped out so I can hold kickboxing classes with sparring. rotfl.gif

I knew there was a reason I liked you (not in that way, you fucking preverts).

smile.gif Gee, thanks, James! Coming from you that's a real compliment. It's so kind of you to express that.
FanGirl
QUOTE (SL James @ May 8 2006, 08:52 PM)
<snip>you fucking preverts<snip>

Hey! I don't mind it if you call us nasty names, but comparing us to a post-WW2 French poet is totally crossing the line! mad.gif
eidolon
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
that would make even the most left-leaning academic love them.


Yes, because being left-leaning and smart = not liking guns.
FanGirl
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Anyway, I do have one point of confusion, though.  Why does Professor Pa tell you to fight against an abductor but then not cover the basic elements of self-defense law?  (Requirement of retreat, equal amounts of force, self defense vs. revenge, castle doctrine, etc.)  It's kind of good to know if you are seriously thinking about defending yourself.

Hee, "Professor Pa." Anyway, I'm not sure why he didn't go into that stuff: I'll have to ask him about it sometime.

BTW, even though Dad is a (fiscal) conservative, he just doesn't find guns appealing. Sorry.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (eidolon)

Yes, because being left-leaning and smart = not liking guns.

And

QUOTE

BTW, even though Dad is a (fiscal) conservative, he just doesn't find guns appealing. Sorry.



Eh, I'm the only left-leaning person I know who likes guns. Everyone else I've met who isn't a conservative thinks that they're inestimably dangerous and uncontrollable and yet if you legislate against them they'll magically disappear. Furthermore, outside of a rural setting, NO ONE NEEEEDS GUNS, DAMMIT!

I mean, I used to be like that. Then I became a history major as an undergrad. And then on top of that I took a couple of firearms courses.

Then I realized that a firearm is not a Wand of Magic Missile that automatically hits you and practically instapwns the Level 0 Fighters walking around the city and that in fact if you don't know what you're doing you can miss all the time at beyond 30 feet. I also realized that there was a lot of historical evolution that went into the designs of firearms and that this historical progression is wound deeply in the history of the major wars this century. I think that in my mind firearms morphed from these all-powerful artefacts of effortless death into something closer to reality.

I also think that there's a lot of non-factual ideological crap that gets tied into the gun debate, at least with lefties like me. I don't think that many lefties, even smart ones, really appreciate all the history that is represented by having a 1911 in your hand today, and they don't necessarily appreciate the engineering aspect of the technology either. They don't get interested in the medical aspect of firearms and learn about blood loss, shock, cavitation, and rehabilitation. I think that actual guns get sucked into a kind of ideological demonization of violence in the media and the fetishization of violence in movies becomes ideologically tied to people wanting to own firearms in real life.

Basically, I think that in the absence of people handling, practicing with, and really appreciating what firearms do and don't do there's room in a creative and abstract mind to grow a gun-shaped demon.
FanGirl
Okay, okay! Next time my college's gun club goes to the firing range, I'll tag along. Would that make you feel better?

(Yup, you read that post right: there is such a thing as a "college gun club." And it's at a fairly liberal college, too.)
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (FanGirl)
Okay, okay! Next time my college's gun club goes to the firing range, I'll tag along. Would that make you feel better?

(Yup, you read that post right: there is such a thing as a "college gun club." And it's at a fairly liberal college, too.)

It would, actually. Just for kicks, ask someone ahead of time if they can bring a 1911 for you to fire.

Luckily, plenty of liberal colleges have gun clubs and gun classes. That was my initiation and I think I got a very good introduction. I got to play with a variety of firearms since the instructors were collectors.
James McMurray
Because I can't see a good discussion without chiming in...

I personally am not anti-gun, nor do I own a gun. The reason is that I'm anti-"gun in the house with small shildren." Either I'll put it somewhere that I could actually get to it during a breakin and my kids could also get to it, or I'll put it soemwhere that they can't get in to and neither can I in an emergency. Since putting it where they couldn't get it would mean the top of the closet, in a box, locked, behind a few things, with the key hidden in the locked car, and the bullets in the trunk. wink.gif

I am, however, anti-"getting shot."

If we could somehow wave our hands and make all guns go away it might end up being a better world, or it might not. The instances involving people dying from gunshot woulds would completely go away, but it could engender an aristocracy powered by the people with the heaviest armor and best sword / bow skills (i.e. feudalism all over again). Since I'm way too lazy to take up swordfighting, I think I'll stick with the guns for now. wink.gif
Kremlin KOA
FanGirl
Ignore the 1911 hype, fire a .22 or a .38 for ya first 50 rounds or so, get used to how guns kick and not anticipate recoil before ya use a heavier weapon

James McMurray: go look into gunsafes

There are a couple ofmodels that are quick release even with a decent code.

WHen you are awake ya could have the weapon on you so the kids can't get it
and put it into the safe at night
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
Ignore the 1911 hype

frown.gif frown.gif frown.gif frown.gif frown.gif frown.gif


Too bad this forum dosen't have the smiley of the crying eagle head in front of an American flag. That smiley would have been ideal for this post.
mfb
QUOTE (FanGirl)
Hey! I don't mind it if you call us nasty names, but comparing us to a post-WW2 French poet is totally crossing the line! mad.gif

2 karma to FanGirl for making the GM laugh.
James McMurray
Ah, but I'd have to want a gun in the house enough to get a gunsafe. Then I'd have to carry a gun around with me all day (I tend not to wear a full set of clothes, and certainly wouldn't wear a holster all day).

No thanks, it's not my cup of tea.
hyzmarca
Actually, if you wanted to have a gun around for self-defense but didn't want to let children have access to it I'd recomend a barrel lock instead. As gun locking mechanisms go, barrel locks are superior to trigger locks in every way. They are more sturdy, more reliable, and come off much quicker in an emergancy. They also prevent accidental discharge since a propper barrel lock makes it impossible to chamber a round while trigger locks do not.

And all you'd need to keep on your person is a tiny key like the kind they use for display cases and drink machines.

Of course, making it impossible for children to access the weapon in an emergancy kind of defeats the purpose of having a gun for self-defense in the first place. People who use such measures will be very embarassed if their children are ever butchered by sterotypical axe-murders bjust because the kids couldn't use the gun which is why I perfer actual firearms use and safety training at a young age.

It is odd but both liberals and conservatives loudly bang on the stop our children from being violent drum and bang on the protect our children from imaginary Frakenstien-like gigantic rabid murderous pedophiles drum at the same time without understanding that those two goals are mutually exclusive.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 8 2006, 08:54 PM)
I was pleasantly surprised when I read this post because Professor Pa told his daughter to fight back in an abduction situation.  I get so sick and tired of so-called experts telling people not to fight back but instead to roll over and be easy victims.

Psht. You should never, ever fight back. Instead, you should get a tooth replacement with cyanide or some similar substance inside. If someone tries to abduct you, bite down hard—that'll teach them.
QUOTE
The instances involving people dying from gunshot woulds would completely go away, but it could engender an aristocracy powered by the people with the heaviest armor and best sword / bow skills (i.e. feudalism all over again).

See, that's just it—feudalism didn't display those properties at all. Where those traits (power and skills/armor) coexisted, it was largely because those with power had the most money and free time—the one being critical to obtaining and maintaining armor, the other to acquiring and maintaining skill with weaponry.

Even if your assertion were true, though, it's only worse now. Here you are with your guns and maybe some kevlar, while the "feudal lords" are equipped with missiles and tanks and who knows what else. At least under feudalism you were facing the same class of weaponry that you were using (siege weapons being largely ineffectual against human targets—not that big guns are so hot against individual people these days, but when you're using a big explosive instead of a big rock a miss will be a lot more dangerous).

QUOTE
People who use such measures will be very embarassed if their children are ever butchered by sterotypical axe-murders bjust because the kids couldn't use the gun

Have you watched any horror movie ever, or maybe the Home Alone series? Any kid who can't stand up to an axe murderer with nothing but household materials doesn't deserve to live.

~J
hyzmarca
If a crazy axe murder breaks into your home with the intent to kill you and you injure him with some crazy MacGuyvered device then he can sue you and he will almost certainly win. If you kill him with a gun then he can't sue.
Kagetenshi
You or I? Absolutely. A ten-year-old kid? He will get put in jail for life for contempt of awesome if he fails to use a Rube Goldberg death machine.

~J
FanGirl
Sig'd!
James McMurray
Ahem...

I. Don't. Want. A. Gun. In. My. House. With. Kids.

If my children are half as devious as I was (they'll probably be twice as devious) they'll be able to get into anything I can get into. I have absolutely no problems with anybody else doing whatever they want within their own homes.

I was merely offering up my opinion, not looking to be convinced (which won't happen).

Kage: the offhand crack about feudalism was just that: an offhand crack. I am not held in check because my government has bigger and better weaponry then me and cajoles me out of fear. I most likely wouldn't be no matter how the disparate weaponry existed, because of a couple of reasons:

1) I don't live under a government that rules its populace by fear.

2) If things got that bad I'd get up and leave, walking myself and my kids to Canada or farther if needbe. Given that I live in Texas, that's a pretty long walk. smile.gif
mfb
QUOTE (James McMurray)
1) I don't live under a government that rules its populace by fear.

arguable, these days. maybe not a winnable argument... but arguable.
James McMurray
Yeah, you could argue it. But since I have no fear of my government, you'd lose any argument predicated on me being ruled by fear. smile.gif
Oracle
The fact that you do not fear your government does not necessarily mean it is not ruling by fear. Possibly they rule by making the populace fear others. Communists, minorities, other countries, terrorists, religions... Fear allows a government to cut freedom with the populace applauding.
eidolon
QUOTE (James McMurray)
1) I don't live under a government that rules its populace by fear.


HAhahhaHAhAhAhAaHAHAhahaHAHAhahahahahahaHAHAHAhahaHahAHaHaHahaHaHAHaHAHaHahahahAhahAhahAHAhaa....haha....ha........HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAhahahahHAHAhahaahAHHAHaHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHAHA....whew...

Yeah. That was good. Tell another one!

QUOTE (Oracle)
The fact that you do not fear your government does not necessarily mean it is not ruling by fear.


Damn well said, and logically sound to boot. For further examples to build on your list, see

- constant usage of "9/11" to justify stomping on civil rights
- constant reminders that if we don't give the government carte blanche to maim, torture, and detain without cause anyone they want, we'll all die in a fiery maelstrom
- the "god's on our side" method of ruling
- the constant reminders that everyone outside out border is an "enemy" unless they're currently, repeatedly, and openly kissing our collective ass
- rampant and open cronyism and position purchasing

Anyone that isn't worried isn't paying attention.
Oracle
But please keep in mind that this is not a politics board. This only leads to flamewars.
mfb
no it doesn't! you're stupid, and also a communist nazi!
Oracle
biggrin.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (James McMurray)
I. Don't. Want. A. Gun. In. My. House. With. Kids.


Understandable, but what about your kids' friends' houses? It is impossible to have complete control over every place your children may play. It is far better to instill in your children a complete understanding of what guns can do and how to handle them safely rather then send them out into the cruel wiorld with nothing but ignorance for a shield.

As a genral rule, people who are properly educated about firearms safety don't accidently shoot themselves or others.
Oracle
How does it happen, that here in Germany the number of gun accidents is so much smaller?
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