You know, the irony of your statement is that ice cream is probably *more* wholesome in the SR world than it often would be at an ice cream parlor today. Basically, ice cream is bad for you because although it has a lot of calcium it has too much fat and too much sugar. People don't realize it but cheap ice cream is better for you than premium ice cream because it's thickened with carageenan (a seaweed product) instead of eggs and thus it actually contains dietary fiber. Add artificial sweeteners without sugar and you could probably get rid of a lot of the bad stuff that's in ice cream, especially if you did your best to make it low fat by minimizing the actual dairy ingredients.

IRL generally speaking I don't want to eat ice cream. It's funny because a lot of my fellow Americans out here in the Federated States of Micronesia are often buying ice cream and homemade frozen confections from stores and things as a respite from the tropical heat and humidity. Me, I haven't bought ice cream yet. That shit is bad for you.

The way I see it, if you're gonna take on so many calories and do something unhealthy, you might as well get something from it; you might as well drink alcohol. I'm a huge fan of mixed drinks. So that's sort of a reversal (bar>ice cream).

That being said, if I were magically transported by a Shadowrun novel into the Shadowrun universe I might eat ice cream if it failed to contain real dairy products. I'd eat fat free nutrasweet carageenan based ice cream any day because it's pretty much "guilt free".

I used to eat ice cream before I learned about health. I'll still eat it for a special occasion if someone buys it for me; I wouldn't want to refuse a gift in the setting of a special occasion unless I felt like I was literally in danger from that gift. (For example, if someone gave me a meat dish that had been prepared the night before and had been out on a counter all day; food poisoning can be truly horrific.)

I think it's all about attitude when you go into t3h seedy bar. I did my graduate classes at the Tulane University public health school in New Orleans pre-Katrina. Since I'm a miserly bastard who hates spending money *and* a great lover of alcohol I would often try to save money by going to the seediest, most-cheap looking bars off of Canal Street that I could find. In New Orleans there was a very high crime rate at that time, there were a lot of people out on the street who were clearly on crack, and there was a lot of poverty-centric racial tension.

Thing is, though, for the most part no one ever bothered me when I was buying my cheap beer at seedy bars. Once a delusional old lady on crack kissed the back of my neck, but as far as incidents in actual seedy bars goes that's it.

At the end of the day most people don't want anything bad to happen to them. Even if they want to mug someone or smack someone down they'll go for someone who looks weak instead of someone who looks like they might put up a fight.

Therefore, I would think that unless your shadowrunner inexplicably looks really weak or nervous he or she would do just fine in t3h shadowrunner bar. I mean, even if your character is the Bod 2 effeminite decker who looks fun to beat up chances are no one would bother to got beat up on him as long as he's got his heavy pistol. Even if you probably could beat him up why take the risk when all you wanted to do was get a few creds or let off some steam? Go beat up on some hobo outside who can't defend himself.

Lol, no, I'm like military multiplied by negative one. I'm a Peace Corps volunteer. I'm not even allowed to own or operate a firearm.

I suppose you're right. . ..but then again, I'm a sheltered upper-middle class white girl who, in terms of street smarts, is downright retarded. If I went to one of your Canal Street bars, it would probably take all the willpower I could muster to keep myself from huddling under the nearest table and whimpering to myself. Thank God I don't have to do runner-type stuff in real life!

One of my fellow volunteers said, "there's nothing peaceful about him!" because I'm interested in combative sports and I had some cheap pads and mouth guards shipped out so I can hold kickboxing classes with sparring.

Well, if her pops is a lawyer she should learn about self defense law and carry a 1911. Then you only have to worry about her fumbling with her weapons when she's suddenly assaulted on the street at a time when the last thing she thought she'd be thinking about was fighting for her life. Because 1911s are t3h win.

I knew there was a reason I liked you (not in that way, you fucking preverts).

I was pleasantly surprised when I read this post because Professor Pa told his daughter to fight back in an abduction situation. I get so sick and tired of so-called experts telling people not to fight back but instead to roll over and be easy victims. I think that a lot of people *already* act like victims way too easily and we sure as hell don't need that being reinforced. Plus, peoples' general naivite and lack of toughness and mental aggression helps to facilitate the growth of bullshit consumerist martial arts in the US because people don't demand any real evidence that the techniques they're being taught are really effective or not.

I guess that anyone who used to be a chef can't be that bad. I really enjoy cooking myself.

Anyway, I do have one point of confusion, though. Why does Professor Pa tell you to fight against an abductor but then not cover the basic elements of self-defense law? (Requirement of retreat, equal amounts of force, self defense vs. revenge, castle doctrine, etc.) It's kind of good to know if you are seriously thinking about defending yourself.

Lastly, 1911s are really cool and very historical. Even if you don't like guns in general I think 1911s have a historical appeal to them that would make even the most left-leaning academic love them.

Gee, thanks, James! Coming from you that's a real compliment. It's so kind of you to express that.

Hey! I don't mind it if you call us nasty names, but comparing us to a post-WW2 French poet is totally crossing the line!

Yes, because being left-leaning and smart = not liking guns.

Hee, "Professor Pa." Anyway, I'm not sure why he didn't go into that stuff: I'll have to ask him about it sometime.

BTW, even though Dad is a (fiscal) conservative, he just doesn't find guns appealing. Sorry.

And

Eh, I'm the only left-leaning person I know who likes guns. Everyone else I've met who isn't a conservative thinks that they're inestimably dangerous and uncontrollable and yet if you legislate against them they'll magically disappear. Furthermore, outside of a rural setting, NO ONE NEEEEDS GUNS, DAMMIT!

I mean, I used to be like that. Then I became a history major as an undergrad. And then on top of that I took a couple of firearms courses.

Then I realized that a firearm is not a Wand of Magic Missile that automatically hits you and practically instapwns the Level 0 Fighters walking around the city and that in fact if you don't know what you're doing you can miss all the time at beyond 30 feet. I also realized that there was a lot of historical evolution that went into the designs of firearms and that this historical progression is wound deeply in the history of the major wars this century. I think that in my mind firearms morphed from these all-powerful artefacts of effortless death into something closer to reality.

I also think that there's a lot of non-factual ideological crap that gets tied into the gun debate, at least with lefties like me. I don't think that many lefties, even smart ones, really appreciate all the history that is represented by having a 1911 in your hand today, and they don't necessarily appreciate the engineering aspect of the technology either. They don't get interested in the medical aspect of firearms and learn about blood loss, shock, cavitation, and rehabilitation. I think that actual guns get sucked into a kind of ideological demonization of violence in the media and the fetishization of violence in movies becomes ideologically tied to people wanting to own firearms in real life.

Basically, I think that in the absence of people handling, practicing with, and really appreciating what firearms do and don't do there's room in a creative and abstract mind to grow a gun-shaped demon.

It would, actually. Just for kicks, ask someone ahead of time if they can bring a 1911 for you to fire.

Luckily, plenty of liberal colleges have gun clubs and gun classes. That was my initiation and I think I got a very good introduction. I got to play with a variety of firearms since the instructors were collectors.

Too bad this forum dosen't have the smiley of the crying eagle head in front of an American flag. That smiley would have been ideal for this post.

2 karma to FanGirl for making the GM laugh.

Psht. You should never, ever fight back. Instead, you should get a tooth replacement with cyanide or some similar substance inside. If someone tries to abduct you, bite down hard—that'll teach them.

See, that's just it—feudalism didn't display those properties at all. Where those traits (power and skills/armor) coexisted, it was largely because those with power had the most money and free time—the one being critical to obtaining and maintaining armor, the other to acquiring and maintaining skill with weaponry.

Even if your assertion were true, though, it's only worse now. Here you are with your guns and maybe some kevlar, while the "feudal lords" are equipped with missiles and tanks and who knows what else. At least under feudalism you were facing the same class of weaponry that you were using (siege weapons being largely ineffectual against human targets—not that big guns are so hot against individual people these days, but when you're using a big explosive instead of a big rock a miss will be a lot more dangerous).

Have you watched any horror movie ever, or maybe the Home Alone series? Any kid who can't stand up to an axe murderer with nothing but household materials doesn't deserve to live.

~J

arguable, these days. maybe not a winnable argument... but arguable.

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Yeah. That was good. Tell another one!

Damn well said, and logically sound to boot. For further examples to build on your list, see

- constant usage of "9/11" to justify stomping on civil rights
- constant reminders that if we don't give the government carte blanche to maim, torture, and detain without cause anyone they want, we'll all die in a fiery maelstrom
- the "god's on our side" method of ruling
- the constant reminders that everyone outside out border is an "enemy" unless they're currently, repeatedly, and openly kissing our collective ass
- rampant and open cronyism and position purchasing

Anyone that isn't worried isn't paying attention.

Understandable, but what about your kids' friends' houses? It is impossible to have complete control over every place your children may play. It is far better to instill in your children a complete understanding of what guns can do and how to handle them safely rather then send them out into the cruel wiorld with nothing but ignorance for a shield.

As a genral rule, people who are properly educated about firearms safety don't accidently shoot themselves or others.