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Kagetenshi
Feasibility? Sure. Desirability?

See, this is what I'm trying to get across to you. Yes, you can handwave everything into the game. Every time you do it it damages suspension of disbelief. Because of that, handwaving anything you don't have to is bad.

Can you give me even a vaguely quarter-decent reason why Technomancers are better as a concept because they've been given a laws-of-physics handwave?

~J
James McMurray
No, but I don't have to. I like them as a concept, with or without a handwave. You don't, and that's fine.
SL James
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Can you give me even a vaguely quarter-decent reason why Technomancers are better as a concept because they've been given a laws-of-physics handwave?

They finally just buckled down and made them magical?
Kagetenshi
That's the handwave. I'm still not seeing the reason therefrom. What interesting thing are they doing with the newfound magicalness of Technomancers?

~J
Kanada Ten
Allowing them to summon spirtes and cast complex forms. Technomancers can manipulate the flow of radio noise to create tangible world affects; that's no different than asking what's so great about magic? One can always pick up a flamethrower or shove a p'fix in a mark, and almost with the ease of magic...
SL James
Oh, woops.

Uh, because that way it allows them to carry on describing TMs in a mystical setting and mindset instead of the hyper-rational and eerily intelligence savants they could have been described as?
Kanada Ten
I'm not sure it precludes either. You're just describing the difference between technoshamans and technomancers.

[e] Whether technomancers use a brand of magic or some undiscovered hyperphysics to assence and affect the electromagnetic soup surrounding them doesn't really change the game. Whether their minds have been altered to behave like superRFID, absorbing the waves and then refracting them on a subconscious level or if they are consciously altering code phrases doesn't alter my suspension.
mfb
no, see. they didn't just buckle down and make them magical. matter of fact, the opinion of many of the freelancers is that they're not magical. therefore, they're not feasible.
Kanada Ten
And exactly why not? The human body can behave like an RFID already. Each person when subjected to radio waves reflects those waves in a unique way (this is why people glow on mm-wave). Technomancers simply have the ability to alter how they reflect to such a degree that they can simulate wireless code. Now we could say that the power of this reflected wave would be far too weak for detection, but think about the word Resonance. Their waves "echo" inside a wireless hub because resonance is a fundamental part of the new technology.
James McMurray
And besides, it's cool. wink.gif
SL James
And so... How can they do that while being (AFAIK) almost completely indistiguishable biologically from normal people?
James McMurray
By technology not yet knowing what it is that makes them different? They're a relatively new and as yet mostly unknown quantity. Most folks don't even know they exist, much less if and how to distinguish them from normal people.
mfb
technomancers do more than simply reflect radio waves, they generate them.
James McMurray
Can two technomancers in a dead zone with no wireless devices around connect to each other as a small network and communicate nonverbally via their personae?
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (SL James @ May 3 2006, 05:53 PM)
And so... How can they do that while being (AFAIK) almost completely indistiguishable biologically from normal people?

Depends on how far the normal RF reflection is from Matrix code... Hum, what if they designed the wireless code to use humans as natural repeaters, thus making it so the normal reflection was actually the desired code? Commlinks could use their operator as an amplifier, as well. How much would you really have to alter the concentrations of salt in your body to affect negligible change in the reflection? Essence loss affecting Resonance might be partially explained as a loss of control...

Are they really undetectable, though?

QUOTE
Technomancers do more than simply reflect radio waves, they generate them.

There are always going to be things we have to alter to suit a "better" picture of reality. Or just come anywhere near it. To echo McMurray, can technomancers generate radio waves in dead zones though?
mfb
point me to the text that says they can't. all it says is that people set up personal networks in deadzones. if technomancers somehow can't access them, that'd be something i would note in the text.
James McMurray
Point to the text that says they can. You're making the claim that they generate radio waves, it's up to you to prove the claim or drop it, not the other way around.
mfb
sure, no prob.
QUOTE (SR4 page 233)
Technomancers have their own version of the persona, known as the living persona--essentially, it is an organic commlink with a sim module in the technomancer's head.

the differences between the 'organic commlink' and regular comminks are noted a few paragraphs down in the same section. those differences do not include the inability to generate signal.

more evidence: the description of the Signal attribute specifically discusses broadcasting. when the book later discusses technomancer attributes, it doesn't make any exceptions--nothing about how technomancers actually only reflect signals, nor any game mechanics that would imply this.
Kanada Ten
Does it say if commlinks generate radio waves?
mfb
hahahahahaha! yes, yes it does. see my comments on the Signal attribute. or read the text yourself, on page 212. the phrase raw broadcasting power is particularly relevant.
James McMurray
That works as proof enough for me (without any counterevidence of course. So technomancers generate radio waves as well. Sweet!
mfb
which, like i said, is infeasible unless they're magical. the writers' comments seem to indicate they aren't.
Kanada Ten
Meh, like I said long time ago, I wanted the wireless to use an em-cloud and just have everthing work by manipulating and reflecting the waves.
James McMurray
Can you prove that it's impossible for a biological organism to create radio waves? And if you can, does that matter in a scifi-fantasy game? To some it will, to others it won't. The first group should ignore technomancy and the second group use it. Seems pretty simple to me. smile.gif
mfb
can i personally provide you with the biological details of why the idea of a radio brain is batshit loco? nope. i know enough about radios and biology to tell you it seems like a really cockeyed idea, and i can tell you that if you talk to anybody who knows the first thing about the subject, they'll laugh at you.

yes, it does matter in a scifi-fantasy game. you see, there's this thing called suspension of disbelief. the more unbelievable something is, the harder it is to suspend disbelief about it. people use this argument to justify all kinds of retarded crap, ignoring the fact that good scifi doesn't break suspension of desbelief, it enhances it.
Ophis
What puzzles me is how people seem to treat Otaku as oh so feasible without it being a mystic thing... Just would like to know.
In my game Techno's are weird shit, like meta humans a non magical thing that magic allows to happen(you don't stop being a meta in a dead magic zone or die in orbital stations.) A physical change/mutation that the higher mana lvel allows. It didn't happen before(4th age) because there were no radio waves/computors to work with. Techno's are able to interact with current tech, maybe they always could but the tech wasn't around?
mfb
otaku are feasible. they don't do anything that any savant doesn't do--they just do it with a tighter focus, and on a larger scale. they're Rain Man writ large.
James McMurray
Right, technomancers break your suspension of disbelief. That puts you in the first group. Please feel free to ignore technomancy all you want.
mfb
why ignore it, when i can jeer at it from the sidelines?
SL James
*Whistles innocently*

QUOTE (Ellery)
There are no known animals that emit or detect radio frequency communications, nor are there any known biological processes that operate with the temporal resolution necessary for frequencies useful for high-bandwidth data transfer.

If technomancers are living radio antennas, it is necessarily magic.


QUOTE (Ellery)
QUOTE (Autarkis)
Now if a machine can read them, I do not think it is too far fetched to think that Technomancers are able to "project" certain impulses and receive certain impulses.
EEG recordings are made with electrodes taped to the skin.

The range is zero. The resolution is also close to zero, as the skull and scalp are very effective low-pass spatial filters. The frequencies you measure are only go up to about 30-40Hz at maximum. Compare with the GHz frequencies used by modern mobile phones. Also, that's electric field changes, not EM radiation.

For land-based organisms, that makes the possibility of any useful communications from electrical fluctuations near-zero, much less one that manages to interact meaningfully with a wireless network system.

Unless, of course, it's magic.


I tend to believe a biologist when she's discussing biology.
James McMurray
QUOTE (mfb)
why ignore it, when i can jeer at it from the sidelines?

Feel free to do that as well, just don't expect to convince a lot of people that your way is the right way. smile.gif
mfb
as long as nobody's fooling themselves with faulty facts or logic, my work is done. i could care less if you're convinced that technomancers are retarded or not, as long as you're in possession of the facts--which state technomancers' retardery quite clearly.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
otaku are feasible. they don't do anything that any savant doesn't do--they just do it with a tighter focus, and on a larger scale. they're Rain Man writ large.

You mean, feasible other than altering their biochemistry with thought alone? If one were born otaku, then perhaps they are feasible, but to say emersion in the Deep Resonance alters the physiology without seriously damaging the brian is stretching it.

Besides, you can't actually claim that SR would be good sci-fi if it didn't update the tech (you can argue techomancers, sure). But to aid suspension of disbelief a level of technological improvement must be made in a progressive future setting.

QUOTE
I tend to believe a biologist when she's discussing biology.

I already made my arguments about range being overcome by Resonance.

QUOTE
...which state technomancers' retardery quite clearly.

Or just that of freelancers who claim their power is not realted to magic.
James McMurray
Yep, it appears they are retarded from a biological standpoint. You win that one. Go mf! ohplease.gif
mfb
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
You mean, feasible other than altering their biochemistry with thought alone? If one were born otaku, then perhaps they are feasible, but to say emersion in the Deep Resonance alters the physiology without seriously damaging the brian is stretching it.

sure, it's a stretch--the idea of a human mind interfacing directly with a computer on such a low level is a stretch. but it's not a leap.

i agree, on the tech improvement thing. i just wish they'd gone a different route with technomancers--a route that didn't include radio brains. it's not like it'd be all that hard to make technomancers that don't have radio brains; all they'd need is a transceiver they can interface with. et voila, a technomancer with the same capabilities and playability of an SR4 technomancer, with none of the the parts that give many people screaming fits.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
Yep, it appears they are retarded from a biological standpoint. You win that one. Go mf!

cute. i like how you slipped "motherfucker" in there again. you'll probably claim it was a typo, or that you weren't referencing that particular epithet the first time, or some other fifth-grade crap.

but, since proving that technomancers are biologically infeasible was my entire purpose in posting here... thanks.
James McMurray
No, it was purely intentional. smile.gif

And since my entire point in posting here was proving that some people don't care if they're biologically infeasible, I'm happy too.

Ain't it a rosey red world we live in? smile.gif
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
...all they'd need is a transceiver they can interface with. et voila, a technomancer with the same capabilities and playability of an SR4 technomancer, with none of the the parts that give many people screaming fits.

I could live with that; if that's how it shows up in a video game or as someone's houserule I would be satisfied. I'm more upset about the failure to make hacking rules work like the rest of the mechanics.
mfb
congrats! you grew some eggs, McMurray. of course, now you're either a liar or a spaz, but you can't win 'em all.

at any rate...

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
I could live with that. I'm more upset about the failure to make hacking rules work like the rest of the mechanics.

really? meh... i'm disenchanted enough with the rest of the mechanics that it doesn't bother me that much, i guess. i really like the Matrix rules in SR4. if the rest of the rules were that good, i might play a game or two.
Kanada Ten
Well, I wouldn't care which way they went to do it; the promise of SR4 was consistancy and streamlined. 1/2 out of 2 is pretty bad when you're starting from stratch.
mfb
i find myself unable to counter your point.
Kanada Ten
Hehe. Well, allow me to add but the tech upgrade and new world order make it worthwhile.
mfb
well, they interest me. i find them interesting enough that i'm willing to play some form of SR. just not SR4. it's a hell of a lot of work, though.
James McMurray
QUOTE (mfb)
congrats! you grew some eggs, McMurray. of course, now you're either a liar or a spaz, but you can't win 'em all.

I love the way you decided to come back and add some insults. Very mature of you. what is that, about 5th grade?

Besides, why is it either/or? Neither is a possibilty, as is both.

Out of curiosity, I'd be interested to hear when I came anywhere near to lying, or even giving the impression that I might have been.
eidolon
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Yeah, and TSR went out of business... Hum, makes you wonder.


Not really. I know why TSR went out of business. I has little to do with the fact that they didn't have sorcerers in their edition of D&D.

QUOTE (Kage)
I absolutely can imagine them saying a game sucks. What I can't imagine is them doing so because the game doesn't have wireless in coffee shops.


Precisely. Your argument, James, assumes that when that first person was looking to check out Shadowrun, they had a preconceived notion of what was contained within. From your post, it's equally feasible that the following occurs:

Shopper one: I just heard that D&D is cool, so I was thinking about checking it out.

Shopper two: Nah, you don't want to do that. You can't even get a wireless connection in the taverns.

Point is, gamers can and do suspend disbelief for things WAY more intrinsically wonky than the idea that the world of computing never moved past the monolithic servers and mainframes of recent history. In SR, the "wired" world was simply how the world was. It's the exact thing you deal with when playing say, Cthulu. Do you actually think that the Great Old Ones are controlling you right now? Of course not. But when you play CoC, you assume that those things exist. It's part of the game setting. So too were/are the centralized data banks of SR.

And I'll say it again: a game set in a future that didn't have wireless networking would be enough to make me assume that the game designers were providing me a world in which to roleplay that wasn't necessarily my own.

And don't get me started on the notion that "selling books" somehow equates to "good". ohplease.gif

QUOTE (Platinum)
I don't miss decking because everyone I know is NOT moving to 4.


Never could have put it better.

I have nothing further to contribute to this thread. I'm not sure why I felt moved to post in it to begin with. Opinions don't change from hearing a different opinion. Have fun, whichever edition you're playing. Just remember that fourth edition sucks. wink.gif

(And before you go whining that I'm in "violation" of the sticky or something, water your sense of humor. It's looking wilty.)

mfb
those are good points, but it's worth pointing out that had SR stayed with the old all-wired paradigm, then the Matrix would have remained largely unused in many games. that doesn't mean it was absolutely necessary to go with the current wholly unwired setup, really; a 50/50 mix of wireless (skinlinks, PANs, general AR) and wired (hardcore decking and programming) would have done the same job. but in the end, while i'm less than thrilled with the rate of change (come on, from an infrastructure hit so bad it's referred to as the Crash 2.0, to a completely up-and-running wireless Matrix with full integration into society--all that in less than five years? oooookay!), i generally like the new stuff.

and McMurray, it was the previous time you called me a motherfucker. get some new material, howabout?
Platinum
It wasn't the wired/unwired paradigm shift that kept deckers from being played. we played them and quite effectively, it was the complexity of the decking rules.(The rules kept changing as well) It didn't take a rocket scientist to decipher the rules but it did take a few reads to finally understand them.
noname_hero
The problem I have with the 4th edition is that the few good ideas it introduces (e.g. better availability of wireless, assault rifles more powerful than heavy pistols, splitting the Intelligence attribute...) are hidden inside a system that I conside inferior to the old one, in a setting that is *very* difficult to believe.

Like others have said, the world suffered Crash 2.0 - *how the hell* did it manage to turn into what the 4th edition presents us with? Are they trying to tell me that the technology jumped so fast that the same bandwidth that required *costly* and *bulky* equipment in 2064 is available to 100Y commlinks, or even 1Y RFID tags, in 2070?!? Are they telling me this new tech is nearly everywhere, and nearly everyone is used to it?

IMO, the simple solution to a more widespread wireless would be to limit it a similar way to how SR3 limited cyberterminals ("tortoises"). That way you can have most of the mundane advantages the (IRL relatively low-bandwidth) wireless offers, and wireless "true decking" will require more expensive toys like it does in SR3. Leave the old wired systems in, lower the costs for high-bandwidth wireless, and use (relatively) low-bandwidth wireless that would be sufficient for most of the everyday uses of SR4 matrix. Use these cheap low-bandwidth systems for things like reading emails, browsing the web, reading the restaurant's menu, driving a car, watching trid, receiving spam... And force those willing to remain competitive to invest into better gear with higher bandwidth.

It is economy, people. Heck, it is common sense! Different applications require different bandwidth, there will *always* be applications that could use more bandwidth than even the best available tech can offer, and it would be *stupid* to build the *best* and *most expensive* technology into *everything*. In my opinion, there *should* be a difference between the requirements for listening to weather predictions and the requirements for hacking the supercomputer generating said predictions.

To sum it up: IMHO the good ideas SR4 introduces are swamped by way more stupid ones. I had no problems switching from SR2 to SR3, but this time both the rules and the setting are *worse* in the newer version. I'm sticking with SR3.
eralston
They could have spared themselves SR4's matrix themes completely if they reiterated just how large a megapulse is supposed to be. They could have totally gotten away with "MPs are too huge to transmit wirelessly all the time in non-tortoise mode".

Do they say anywhere in the book how big an MP is?
Platinum
You want to go here for that discussion. Happened a few weeks ago.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12692
eralston
thanks for the link

Yeah, I have a hard time believing in a wireless technology capable of transmitting that much information so quickly. It runs into a bit of a speed of energy problem.
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