I don't have a problem with the tech working so quickly, I know it is possible, and it is getting faster all the time. (In isolated labs) The problem is that in production, there are so many other people using the same frequncies that it becomes like trying to talk to someone at a concert while the band is playing and pyrotechnics are going off. Sure you can do it, but it is slow, and difficult.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.

That's more or less my thought. The model presented on the linked page of that discussion (pumping the entire matrix out all at once to reduce time for requests and responses) would really be outta control with a wireless technology. There would be some crazy new regulations for how much spectrum matrix 2.0 is able to use. I suppose, mega-corps being mega and all, that could have swung and maybe optical chips are just so cool they could process information that quickly, but then you heap onto that encryption and protocols? Ouch.

Stepping back for a moment, it is kind of silly to overanalyze such as we have, especially considering their thread was suppose to figure what edition of the rules to use in an SR video game...

It may have for your group, but not for mine....
Quoting myself.

that's good point. however, there are flaws. for one, a mage doesn't have to go astral every time he wants to do something magical. for two, an astral mage can often directly participate in whatever the rest of the team is doing; the astral mage is, after all, right there in the same area as the rest of the team. it's much easier to integrate an astral mage into activities that the rest of the team is conducting than it is to integrate the decker into those activities.

a good GM can work around these problems, of course--but it is work, on the GM's part. it means he can never simply set up a Matrix problem; he has to set up a Matrix problem with real-world components every time. the GM can throw up a magical threat at any time, with no extra planning invovled; any PC can act against magical threats. the street sam might not be as effective against a magical threat as the mage is, but at least the sam has something to do.

That is frequently not the case, particularly when it comes to magical security (which many times consists of astral observers).

~J

that's a worst-case scenario. if you're sneaking into somewhere and the only security in the area is an astral observer then, yes, the mage is going to have a few rounds of alone time. it's much easier for a GM to avoid those situations, however, than it is for him to design Matrix scenarios which directly involve the rest of the team. it can be as simple as giving the astral observers orders to materialize and attack--something you certainly can't do for deckers.

Yes, it's possible that someone will tell you not to play D&D because there's no wireless connections in the game. Completely unlikely and moronic, but possible.

There's a big difference between someone expecting wireless in a fantasy tavern and somebody expecting wireless in a future Earth that has no reason for technology to have rolled backwards except "the rules don't allow wireless connections."

The previous time I called you that I was lying. It was obvious to me, obvious to you, and obvious to everyone involved. It's called "feigning innocence" and done sarcastically as amusement. Maybe you could use some of your fertilizer on your own humor plant?

I agree on the deckign though. It's psosible to integrate a decker into a standard game on SR3 without wireless, but doing it over and over again tended to (at least in our games) stretch the bounds of reality.

But in our games the decker / hacker usually wants to move in first and take control before anyone comes in whenever possible, so they generally just hire an NPC. Wireless hasn't changed that. The only thing it has done is make it so people look up their own information on the matrix, have some computer skills, and take part inthe world's technology a bit more.

there isn't that big a difference, though. science fiction, especially science fiction gaming, has to take into account the fact that their vision of the future is probably 90% wrong. our current vision of what the future will be like would be almost unrecognizable to someone from the 80s, and their vision would be complet gobbledygook to someone from the 50s. this is as true about technology as it is about everything else. for instance, despite the fact that Japan is no longer poised to take over the globe with their strange, Asian business practices, the corporate world of SR is still largely dominated by Japanese megas. hispanics don't have a major place in the UCAS, CAS, or NAN, despite the fact that that they're currently the fastest-growing ethnic group on the continent. should the next SR book that comes out have all the Japanacorps being taken over by Chinese businessmen, and talk about how Aztlan has suddenly jumped up a few points because it's finally decided to start catering to the massive hispanic population of North America?

i mean, give me a break. you're okay with suspending your disbelief when it comes to people shooting radio waves from their brains, but there's no room in there for a wired Matrix? double standard much?

yes, they've said there are hispanics in the NAN. that's about it. they didn't mention how hispanics outnumber all other ethnic groups besides caucasian, or how the reason the CAS hasn't just stepped down there and whooped the crap out of Aztlan is because of all the ex-Aztlaners living in the south, or how there's racial violence between the Cuban smugglers and the Puerto Rican smugglers all through North America. same deal with the Japanacorps--yes, the PPG has been rocking the boat, but the corporate world is still very much Japan-run. that's true even in 2070, and isn't likely to change.

and there is a rigorous technical pace, if you use the SOTA rules.

SR is a product of its time. it should be updated, i agree, but completely supplanting its basic assumptions is not required, nor is it necessarily desirable.

The SotA rules hardly reflected the rise of a technological overlord.

What are the basic assumptions we're discussing? I'm not sure I see any of them missing from my end.

well, the low place wireless technology occupies in the world, for one. i suppose some others might be the dominance of megacorps over traditional nation-states, the population density of the midwest, the number of american indians in the world, the rate of advancement in cybernetic, the type of advancements in cybernetics (the preeminence of plastic and metal over more natural construction materials, for instance)... those are all i can come up with off the top of my head.

Wow, and I thought we would be talking about the willingness of humans to trade flesh for tech. The willingness to trade freedom for security. The willingness to measure success by wealth and power. And that information is power above all.

those are underlying assumptions of cyberpunk in general, applicable whether you're talking about Gibson or SR or Rudy Rucker. i'm talking about concepts that are largely specific to SR. not that SR is the only fictional universe to make those assumptions, but they are the assumptions that define the SR universe.

i mean, seriously, let's talk about suspension of disbelief as it applies to the NAN. that there is some hardcore suspension.

Exactly, which is why I don't understand technomancer hate. But that's not about ability, is it? It's about desire. Same for me I guess. I desire an SR world where technology invades every single moment, where information overdose causes death on a daily basis...

Personally, I never held your assumptions about the SR universe other than with megacorps and number of natives still clinging to tradition. The rest was always in flux to my mind.

because even the NAN is easier to explain than technomancers. you can simply say "well, the vast majority of the NAN population is filled out by 'white reservations'". technomancers... i haven't seen an explanation that fits.

the assumptions i listed are some of the assumptions the SR universe is built on. cybernetics are made from metal and plastic, rather than being sheathed in, say, cloned bone; implanted computers are not specialized brain tissue, they're chips and wiring. implanted cybernetic interfaces are vastly more advanced than non-implanted versions. these are basic facts that make up the SR world, and they're quite different from both where reality is headed and where other cyberpunk fictional worlds have taken things. if you suddenly change those assumptions, it's no longer SR. it's a world that resembles SR.

You're willing to accept trash science in the form of implanted cybernetics being better than non-implanted versions, implanted cyberware being metal and plastic instead of cloned bone, and the innumerable other things that SR does with tech that can't really be done, but you won't accept it with technomancers? Double standard much?

The Crash wiped it all out, so why wouldn't they replace it with something better?

Byt he way, a lack of capitalization worked for e. e. cummings because he was able to convince people he was smart and artistic enough it didn't matter. I'm not sure you've done that.

i'm willing to accept it because it wasn't trash science at the time it was written. radio brains, though? that's always been retarded. as for why they wouldn't replace the intarwebs with something 'better' (ie, feature-rich), there are innumerable reasons. the primary one was probably a strong focus on security and stability over user-friendliness.

i like how you pooh-pooh insults all the time, but never miss the chance to slip one in when it suits you. that's class. say what you like about me, at least i'm honest.

you can agree with them or disagree with them, but they're right there in all the books. i'm not even sure what you mean by 'disagree'--are you arguing that these things are not in the material? are you arguing that they're there, but mutable in individual games? what does that mean?

As if that means anything to me. Perhaps what I mean to say is: the way Shadowrun is now, is more how I've always envsisioned it. It is more Shadowrun to me than it ever was. I think the original authors failed to actually depict the Shadowrun world in a huge and egregious way. The current book is closer to the "real" Shadowrun than ever for me.

Security is still easily available. If something isn't secure enough for the wireless web you leave it unwired. There hasn't been that big of a difference in security between the two. With either one, if something is available from outside of your facility in a wired world, it's available from outside your facility in an unwired world. You don't have to put everything out on the airwaves any more than you have to put everything on the internet.

Take for example cell phones. Cell phones are vastly less secure than land lines, and less stable as well. However, America (and many other countries) are rapidly becoming addicted to them. Commlinks are like cell phones to the power of 1,000 and therefore vastly more addictive. The smart businessman recognizes addictions and moves to fill them for a price. Switching to a mostly wired world was a good business decision from a consumer / supplier standpoint.

Commlinks and the wireless world that holds them is like cell phones with the ability to play WoW in 3D while you sit on the toilet. If someone can make one, it'll rapidly take over the world.

Most trash science in older editions of SR was trash science even then. For example, the idea that something implanted in someone (and therefore vastly more complex) works better than something you sit on your desk, has always been crapola. But it works in the SR world, so it's ok.

Radio brains are no more retarded than the idea of "psychics" able to read minds. Lots of futuristic games have those, and because they fit, suspension of disbelief is maintained. Psychics don't really fit in SR (without being awakened) but technomancers (IMO) do. For that reason I suspend my disbelief when dealing wth them. Obviously you don't, and that's ok. It doesn't make sense to me, but it doesn't have to as long as it makes sense to you.

*shrug* technomancers are the only real problem i have with the SR4 setting. there are other oddities, like Los Angeles, but technomancers are the only part i outright reject. the wireless thing, while moving a bit too fast for my tastes, is cool with me in large part because the capacity was already there. all the WMI was, basically, was taking rigger networking technology and applying it to Matrix stuff. i have to admit that i'm mildly put out; all the badass tricks my rigger/deckers used to pull are SOP for every rigger/decker, now.

That puts you into group one. The group who can (and should) ignore technomancers.

sure. i'll ignore them. i won't be bitter about it, because i haven't worked my ass off towards the goal of contributing to SR officially, and came goddamn close to doing so. nor will i be upset because the game has gone from something i enjoyed playing to something i don't.

So you like the things that SR4 did (for the most part), except TMs? Why then, when you can simply delete TMs from your world, is Shadowrun something you no longer enjoy?

Or was that not sarcasm, and you really aren't upset about that?

you could at least do me the favor of reading what i write before you reply to it.

Do you mean I should go back and find every post you've made so I can sift through for the anti-SR4 ones, or that I missed something in that post?

If it's the former, Id' rather not, and the anti-SR commentary from the 3 or 4 truly vocal people all tends to bleed together into one large whine fest. If it's the latter, then you said you wouldn't be bitter and you wouldn't be upset. I assumed you were being sarcastic.

you're apparently too dim to get it, and i'm tired of talking to you. this is as good a place to stop doing so as any.

That's ok. People generally give up when they realize that there's no "blinding undeniable truth" to their beliefs that makes them as blatantly obvious to others as they are to themselves. It's human nature.

Thanks for answering my questions.

Wow, 8 pages of this...

So what you're trying to say is that you want 4th edition, but want 3rd ed decker?

To begin to respond to your question would first require that you please, for the love of god, clarify that vague pronoun.

~J

I actually liked the variable staging of SR1, which is something much easier to work into a computer game. There's too much math for relatively fast game-play, if you've played SR1 you know what I mean. Yes, most of the rest of SR1 is best left for dead, but variable staging made for a much more varied game.

Reengaging my lurking field,

Skip

I think SR4 would be best, personally. AR would look so awesome in fully-realized 3d... Plus, if you made it a first-person role-playing-game, you'd finally have an excuse for the all-pervasive HUD and interface.

I disagree, precisely because I think a game like this is a perfect opportunity to throw the HUD out the window.

~J

Even with SR3 you could have a HUD.

You can indeed. That's personally what I'd be shooting for—no HUD whatsoever, and certain pieces of 'Ware (Smartlink, imagelink, retinal clock, biomonitor, etc. etc. etc.) fill one in if someone gets them. With AR, there's no reason not to have a HUD, which I'm not too keen on.

~J

You still need sensor packages for your HUD. Just having AR goggles isn't enough. It would be no different then giving everyone in a SR3 setting the ability to buy a HUD.

Why are you so opposed to a HUD if it makes sense within the game world?

Because we've had HUDs in almost every game since Quake II at the latest (and health/ammo displays since Wolfenstein 3D). I'd like building a HUD to be a tradeoff, which it is using SR3 (mostly requiring cyberware) and isn't in SR4 (most things, especially the key things like smartlinks, can be effectively done without 'ware). Sure with SR4 you can at least explain the HUD (which, don't get me wrong, I do appreciate), but it would pretty much be default-present.

~J

In SR3 goggles could do almost anything eye augs could do... LL, Thermo, magnification, smartlink, even smartlink 2, if memory serves.

You can get noncyberware displays in SR3, as well as noncyberware smartlinks. The only real difference between SR3 and SR4 in that area is AR, which in and of itself is not a HUD any more than an image link by itself is a HUD.

There is no reason to assume that a default HUD in SR4 would have anything at all. For an ammo count and health readout you'd need wireless enabled guns and a biomonitor respectively. For enemy targetting you'd need a smartlink or laser sight. For enemy tracking you'd need some sort of sensor device or they'd be undetectable outside your field of view.

I think a HUD could be great. But I agree wit Kage, it should not be automatic. That would also be a clever way to diguise customizing your games appearence.

Correct, but that's a tradeoff as well—goggles aren't appropriate for social situations, say, or walking around on the street. Contact lenses or similarly-sized items are.

~J

"Goggles" have always been available as just sunglasses. I do agree that it shouldn't be free, but instead should eb built from the ground up by purchasing various packages for it. The only thing I disagree with is the idea that a HUD is a bad idea for a game and that for some reason SR4 is worse than SR3 in this regard because of AR (which has little to nothing to do with HUDs).

The problem being that AR makes the capabilities that allow a HUD critical rather than optional.

~J

You could actually screw with the HUD in SR4 more than 3 using Spam Zones (you'd be shutting off the damn thing most often in public places) or Jammer Zones (activated inside corporate complexes and secure areas when an alarm is tripped), not to mention Dead Zones.

Honestly, a HUD is a basic function of AR, but we could also argue that AR would replace a lot of the HUD with other sensations or ques besides visual. Many of these could be turned into voice alerts (not to mention your pop-up secretary) or more subtle visual effects (which would take time to grasp, I know) for a video game format.

[e] Random ideas: Miracle Shooter as the training section of the game. 3D HUD system, rather than flat face. Have different features "off to the side" or in the "rear view" - especially things like nano healing and inventory (which would be delt with in real time, rather than a pause screen).

Brain ear leaking melted.

Tomorrow post.

~J