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Thanee
Not everyone must like every game. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
mfb
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
...they have innate magical talent, it isn't something they study at.

that's not quite how it works. they have an innate talent, the way a gifted artist has an innate talent. that doesn't mean they don't need to practice in order to hone that ability; it just means they don't need book learnin' to progress.
Kagetenshi
Interesting. That wasn't the feel I got from skimming the PHB, but I will admit that I gave it a very brief skim indeed.

~J
James McMurray
They're kinda like almost every other class can be portrayed if you want: innately capable of <fighting / sneaking / praying> but need to practice (by fighting monsters and overcoming other challenges) to hone their skills.
mfb
well, check the first line in the description:
QUOTE (PHP3.5 pg51)
Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice.
eralston
Ok, not that I like the degeneration of this thread, but let's bring up DDO for a second:

1) It had more to live up to than it could ever deliver. D&D is the ultimate PnP RPG and nothing they could have made in recent years would have satisfied the people who have played for decades

2) This is the first version of the game and those often suck (anyone still play first edition D&D, why again?)

3) (I suppose this is mostly IMO, but...) Everything Atari touches turns to shit (need I say more?)

4) Also, IMO again, but...the WOTC projection that Eberron is the definitive D&D universe is (IMO again) completely wrong. It is a novel Universe in some respects, but not representative of everyone's experience with the game (it was largely introduced for that reason). (Here is where I express my love of Forgotten Realms, but I also really would have just settled for Greyhawk).

Analyzing that person's specific commentary, it is a simultaneous an argument for and against direct mapping of PnP game mechanics to an MMO. On the one hand, he directly highlights their deviation from the PnP's rules (also citing cross-editioning as bad), warning people away from using the game rules because they are so flawed in their implementation; however, imagine how much angrier he would have been if they hadn't used them at all. I think this is too small a sample size.

Let's fix that



eidolon
QUOTE (James McMurray)
It's set in our technological future, with the vast majority of it's past being the same as ours. That's close enough for me.


But it's not. It's set in our technological future as that future was viewed in the 1980s. And there's no reason that it ever had to be brought into alignment with our present. In fact, it could be argued that by bringing the SR world more into alignment with our present, they're no longer writing a game about the "future". wink.gif

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Yeah, but that doesn't prevent D&D from adding more historical items as they are discovered or translated into the game. Back in the day, we had lots of D&D sourcebooks coming out with new gear and gear from different regions - even time periods.


While this is true, there were (and are) many people that didn't (don't) use much of that stuff. Also, it was always presented very much as an "optional" addition. There was never a day that TSR put out a new edition and said "well, we've just been told that Rome had better gods, so from now on the game only uses those."

QUOTE (eralston)
Why do you guys focus on this wireless thing? Did you ever read Matrix? There were rules for RF links (wireless technology is just standardized radio). They sucked in comparison to sat links too because sat links would halt trace attempts at the sattelite (utterly decimating my GM's cliche attempts at tracking us).


We're aware of that. It's simply an easy reference point, because it has come to convey the difference in "feeling" between the two editions.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
It's set in our technological future, with the vast majority of it's past being the same as ours.


It's set in a fictional conjecture of a possible version of our technological future, with it's past, up to about the year 2000, being pretty similar to ours.

There, I fixed it. wink.gif

QUOTE (Brontal)
That is a very good question eidolon and i will try to be as exact as possible.  <snip>

But you've missed my point. The D&D world was a generic semi-medieval time period setting. SR had/has an internal setting that's just as much removed from reality as D&D is. There is no "need" for the SR world to always directly correlate with ours. You mention that you can google various things used in SR and get real world hits. I counter that while that's true, few of them will match up with their in-game portrayal.

QUOTE
Because the reality Shadowrun is reflecting moved ahead of the presented fiction in the game .


This is not a problem for some of us.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
There was never a day that TSR put out a new edition and said "well, we've just been told that Rome had better gods, so from now on the game only uses those."

Sorcerers. Nothing from SR3 is gone, simply improved. That's not a problem for some of us (SotA:xx).
eidolon
Ah, but improved is a matter of opinion, much like our choice of rules set.

And if you'll notice, I was speaking of the days and releases of TSR. WotC fairly well did put out an edition and say "we just found out that Rome had better gods." See: why I prefer AD&D 2nd to D&D 3.X.

Kanada Ten
Yeah, and TSR went out of business... Hum, makes you wonder. Adam posted a great article about why TSR lost out, but I'm not in the mood to go find it.

I prefer the flexibility of SR3 but the love world of SR4. With D&D, I prefer the flexibility of D20 and 3.x to that of AD&D, but prefer the world flexibility of AD&D.
James McMurray
QUOTE (eidolon)
This is not a problem for some of us.

I'll just say that I agree, for some people it isn't a problem, and that's cool for them. For some people it is, and that's cool for them.

The problem arises because SR does not have a static audience. It's hard to attract new customers to a game set in the future when technology doesn't meet expectations. I can easily picture something like the following at a game store:

Prospective buyer: Dude, I heard Shadowrun is pretty cool. Maybe I'll check it out and see if my group likes it.

Fellow shopper: Yeah, it's got a cool premise, but the tech sucks. You can't even get a wireless connection at coffee shops.

Prospective buyer: Huh? That is pretty stupid. I guess I'll check out something else instead.

You can't get a large number of teenagers in 2006 to buy a game by telling him "it's based on what some guys in the 80s thought would be the future." Heck, you couldn't do that with most people who weren't alive in the eighties (or at least alive enough to know what was going on socially).
Kagetenshi
I can picture that exchange.

I can picture it being made up by someone trying to prove a point. I can't picture it actually taking place spontaneously, let alone more than once.

~J
James McMurray
You can't imagine one game telling another gamer sucks? Have you ever been to a game store and/or talked to gamers?
Kagetenshi
I absolutely can imagine them saying a game sucks. What I can't imagine is them doing so because the game doesn't have wireless in coffee shops.

~J
James McMurray
Oh, I'm sure that if asked they would go on to explain all the other things that make the level of technology unbelievable. But for most people, a game set in the future that doesn't have wireless networking would be enough to make them wonder what the hell the designers were thinking.
ShadowDragon8685
Am I the only one who mourned the demise of the decker and the cable sphagetti that gave Shadowrun that jolt of the Matrix feeling?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE
Oh, I'm sure that if asked they would go on to explain all the other things that make the level of technology unbelievable. But for most people, a game set in the future that doesn't have wireless networking would be enough to make them wonder what the hell the designers were thinking.

I would debate that with you, because I think you're wrong, but there's no point because your premise is flawed. It's already been said, wireless tech is (as of the printing of Matrix) available to anyone with cell or radio access.

And that's before getting into the fact that in a simsense world wireless is obsolete.

~J
James McMurray
People wanting to try a new game don't want to have to buy antoher book (Matrix) just to make one portion of the technology believable.

Wireless is obsolete? So the data moving around just teleports?
Kagetenshi
See, that's what it does when it supposedly goes over a wireless connection. Let me introduce you to a man called Claude Shannon.

~J
Kremlin KOA
James the reason that simsense may see a temporary end to wireless is that simsense is data intensive

and to date wired methods of data transfer remain fatser than wireless ones
James McMurray
Wired methods will probably always be faster than wireless simply because you can't go optical with wireless, but that doesn't make wireless obsolete, especially when considering that technology will progress. If you assume that transfer methods progress fast enough to keep pace with data needs, wireless is here to stay.
Kagetenshi
Ok, I'll admit I should have explained.

My point is that unless data needs stop progressing, wireless transfer methods will fail to keep pace. The reason for that is the same reason that optical is such a good transmission method: there is a theoretical limit to how much information you can transmit (including compression) given a certain bandwidth and noise level. That limit isn't very high, especially when you consider that the signals to everyone else are going to be noise to you.

"Obsolete" was too strong a word. Low-data-rate needs will always be met by wireless barring a catastrophic increase in noise level for some reason. That said, as a primary datamover, wireless will be obsoleted by widespread high-data-rate usage.

~J
Kanada Ten
I don't agree. People will take the hit in performance for the portability. They already are with their cellphones. With the massive memory capabilities of SR4, one could easiliy create an active-x system for simsense, a type of client side scripting that removes the brunt of transmission. The majority of bandwidth would be people downloading updates for this - and that could be done at home on a wired system (perhaps at the same time one recharges the batteries).
Kagetenshi
Er? I'm not exactly certain what you're saying here relating to ActiveX.

~J
blakkie
I believe he is talking sort of along the lines of an Actor Model.

Attempting to reduce bandwidth requirments by encoding very dense messages that utilize data that is already shared between the nodes prior via higher bandwidth methods and letting the nodes do the processing to expand/decode the dense messages out into their full form.

As for the "via higher bandwidth methods", never underestimate the bandwidth of a truckload of floppy disks traveling down the highway at 100 kph. smile.gif
Kremlin KOA
James: as Kage said, not a safe assumption

Kanada: as per SR3 such a client side system was already in place
Platinum
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Am I the only one who mourned the demise of the decker and the cable sphagetti that gave Shadowrun that jolt of the Matrix feeling?

I don't miss decking because everyone I know is NOT moving to 4.

Now we see the point of having some things wireless. AR is cool but it is not everywhere, and the matrix is NOT wireless.

<<must settle down and not get into rant mode.>>

Kanada Ten
The Matrix is wireless in third edition.
Platinum
There are rules for wireless connections in 3rd ed, but the matrix is not a wireless framework like in 4th.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
My point is that unless data needs stop progressing, wireless transfer methods will fail to keep pace.

Right, so obviously something occured in terms of communications, compression, etc. to ensure that data needs were being met by wireless transmission methods.
Kanada Ten
So you're problem is that the third world is creating a modular wireless network rather than laying thousands of miles of cable? A wireless network is already forming, a mere thirty years after the basic technology was created. Here, today, now. Cell towers, satellites, bluetooth.

I think the fact that SR has moved away from being based on crap fiction and is based more on a relatable world is somehow a problem for people. Of course, the problem is nostalgia more than some BS failure to suspend disbelief.
Kagetenshi
My problem is that SR has moved away from being based on crap fiction that coincidentally ended up, in several places, to coincide with reality to being based on crap fiction that has no fucking clue what it's talking about.

If "defying even more rules of physics for unimportant reasons" somehow equals "more relatable" for you, I'm not sure there's any way to productively discuss this.

~J
James McMurray
KAge, I'm unsure there's any way to productively discuss this anyway. It's pretty obvious that you won't be changing your stance (nor will a lot of oldtimers who dislike the new wireless world). The odds are also pretty good that I (and those like me) won't change our stance, as we really like the new wireless world.

The fact of the matter is though, the average gamer doesn't care a lot about physics, they want a world they can suspend disbelief enough to play in. A world that is, however superficially, set in our future but does not conform tot he things you expect to see in our future, loses large chunks of that believability.
mfb
i dunno. i like the wireless stuff, and i like realism. i just don't view the obstacles presented as being insurmountable. i will agree, however, that the move from poorly-researched but basically believable scifi to wholly insane scifi is lamentable.
James McMurray
I'd say that it wasn't really all that big of a move.
mfb
for the wireless stuff? no, not a huge jump. in other (technomancer) areas, though (technomancers), i can't even (technomancers) think about it without (technomancers) trying to claw out my own (technomancers) eyes.
Kagetenshi
Rumors that Nebis may have a second name with even more dread power are as yet unsubstantiated.

~J
Kanada Ten
You can't seriously be suggesting that the portrayal of cyberspace and the physics of the Matrix make in sense in any edition? They don't, at any point, even begin to work how computers can even possibly work. Some moron thought holographic memory meant code would be /shaped/ in /3D space/ to resemble physical objects! Come on!

And no, technomancers don't make sense. They're some kind of anti-magic that projects into hyperspace which is somehow a reflection of the technological dream world.
James McMurray
mfb: What about Otaku? Or Mages? Why were they ok but technomancers aren't?

Kage: huh?
Platinum
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
So you're problem is that the third world is creating a modular wireless network rather than laying thousands of miles of cable? A wireless network is already forming, a mere thirty years after the basic technology was created. Here, today, now. Cell towers, satellites, bluetooth.

I think the fact that SR has moved away from being based on crap fiction and is based more on a relatable world is somehow a problem for people. Of course, the problem is nostalgia more than some BS failure to suspend disbelief.

No ... my problem is the entire architechture of the world has changed from wired to wireless. I am not saying wireless is not going to exist, I am saying there is place for it, and that place is a supplemental layer on top of a wired faster layer. Wireless is not going to be the exclusive standard, but a level on top of that does the majority of its heavy traffic routing to other cities / hubs through a wired layer. If you want to get a signal from 1 end of the country to the other, it is a great deal faster to use fibre than microwave/satelite. With a completely wireless world the problems that we see now with zombie networks and spammers will increase exponentially.

I like the idea of walking into a starbucks and seeing the menu on my glasses as I wait in line. I think logging in wirelessly is super awesome, but a 100% saturation of wireless would cause an insane number of problems. The problems of today with spam and exploits will not just go away.

"But my comm has a firewall on it and I am sandboxed", argument doesn't hold any water. There are so many bugs and flaws in hardware/software, and those will evolve.

The number of frequencies we are using for transmissions is growing everyday. I can see those becoming saturated in 25 years., and whammo, we are right back to a wired layer, because of transmission rates. A good example is a cordless phone. Many people are running into conflicts with neighbours because of the number of available channels are limited.
Platinum
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
You can't seriously be suggesting that the portrayal of cyberspace and the physics of the Matrix make in sense in any edition? They don't, at any point, even begin to work how computers can even possibly work. Some moron thought holographic memory meant code would be /shaped/ in /3D space/ to resemble physical objects! Come on!

Cyberspace is a constructed environment, like MMO's are. You can tweak the physics as you please. They use symbolism to represent different appliances and systems. What is hard to comprehend? the objects in cyberspace are modular refactored snippets of code or subroutines, kind of like dropping objects together in VB.
Kanada Ten
I'm not sure I disagree with that, but even a wired backbone with ubiquitous hubs would result in the same effect.

I agree that spammers and zombies won't go away, but that's not really a turn off for me. The ability to eliminate my TV, phone, computer, radio, and the rest of my entertainment center (not to mention the ability to post on DS while on the can) with a little watch and a pair of glasses makes that worth it. More than worth it. IMO, of course.
Platinum
QUOTE (James McMurray)
mfb: What about Otaku? Or Mages? Why were they ok but technomancers aren't?

Kage: huh?

Otaku were created for anime appeal. they took decking naked, pumped it full of munchkin steriods and shredded a really cool concept so now there would be an archtype for min/maxers.
Kanada Ten
That version of cyberspace you posted is not the original one, it's the one we've forced into the game because it makes a semblance of logic.

The original version is why they call creating a physical shape "scultping" the Matrix.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
That version of cyberspace you posted is not the original one, it's the one we've forced into the game because it makes a semblance of logic.

See, some change is good. wink.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Platinum)
Otaku were created for anime appeal.

What the fuck are you smoking and where can I get some? The Denver Boxed Set came out in 1994. Not only was that significantly before the only thing even vaguely similar to that in anime I can think of (1998's Serial Experiments Lain), it's also well before anime worked itself into anything resembling widespread popularity (though Akira was making inroads at the time).
QUOTE
You can't seriously be suggesting that the portrayal of cyberspace and the physics of the Matrix make in sense in any edition?

Compared to this, I am. The portrayal of cyberspace has always been pretty stupid, but it has been that way not because what was designed was gratuitously impossible, but because most of the time there was no practical reason to build a system that way. Just because one thing is bad doesn't mean another thing can't be a whole hell of a lot worse.
QUOTE
mfb: What about Otaku? Or Mages? Why were they ok but technomancers aren't?

I'm not mfb but I'll answer anyway. Mages are ok because they are (and get ready, 'cause you're about to see a theme here) impossible but with a definite purpose. There is a clear reason to include magic, it's a conscious decision to add a fantastical element. Likewise Otaku who, better yet, don't even violate laws of physics (biology and neurology are another matter entirely). They even made sure you knew they didn't just accept light into their brains somehow and shoot it out—they included a piece of gear for the purpose. Some actual thought went into it, if not a huge amount.

Compare with Technomancers with their brain-radios.

~J
Platinum
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
I'm not sure I disagree with that, but even a wired backbone with ubiquitous hubs would result in the same effect.

I agree that spammers and zombies won't go away, but that's not really a turn off for me. The ability to eliminate my TV, phone, computer, radio, and the rest of my entertainment center (not to mention the ability to post on DS while on the can) with a little watch and a pair of glasses makes that worth it. More than worth it. IMO, of course.

The wired backbones are not affected by atmospheric phenomenon, and can channel so much more data.

wired glasses, just plug in with your jack. or comm in 4
James McMurray
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Compare with Technomancers with their brain-radios.

They are no more impossible then reading peoples' minds and shooting fire from your fingertips. They serve a direct purpose, that of helping the team to interface with the matrix in a fantastical way.
mfb
you're absolutely right, McMurray. brain radios are just as feasible as reading peoples' minds and shooting fire from your fingertips--which is to say, they're completely infeasible unless there's magic involved. with otaku, you basically just say that they're a very specialized type of savant.

as for otaku being something out of anime... what anime have you been smoking?
James McMurray
I'm glad we agree on the feasability of technomancers in a scifi/fantasy game. wink.gif
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