Sorry if I seem particularly obtuse, but this has been bugging me...

When exactly can a hacker/TM use skill+Logic instead of skill+program?

"When you are directly interacting with a device" seems way too open for me. Does that mean if I skip the program/CF and attempt to perform an action that a program/CF does without using one that I can use Logic for the pool instead? That seems munchy, because then a maxed hacker can have the equivalent of a rating-9 program on any action that they choose--with the only catch being that they couldn't replicate sustained programs like armor, or simulate running multiple programs at once.

Does it instead mean that I can never use skill+Logic unless I'm crouched over a captured commlink on a desk trying to take it apart, or something?

Also, on a similar note, is there any reason (other than prejudice) that a TM shouldn't just carry a commlink around full of programs that they don't have CFs for (yet), run it into their PAN, and access it from their living persona as needed? That would seem to be particularly useful for starting TMs to do, to cover their weak spots. After all, program upgrades are cheaper than CF upgrades, if you get my meaning.

Here's how I'd do it:

"Geez, this guy's commlink is set up in some completely fragged-up chiphead way. Lemme see if I can get it to work properly." -- Computer (or Hacking) + Logic

"Geez. this guy's commlink is protected with some completely fragged-up chiphead firewall. Lemme see if I can get it to work properly." -- Hacking + Exploit

"Geez. this guy's commlink is protected with some completely fragged-up chiphead encryption. Lemme see if I can get it to read properly." -- Response + Decrypt

Hacking on the fly?

Could be because a program isn't as intuitive as a person? Although I do sometimes allow my PCs to add in their intuition/logic attribute to the skill+program check, specially when they are helping the program out (i.e. REALLY trying to crack something ... fast.)

I buy the, err, logic, of that, but it makes for some odd gameplay considerations.

For starters, if I have a high Logic, why should I ever buy an attack program? Any time that I would use an attack program, I could perform the attack myself instead.

The same goes for the major action-based programs, like exploit and edit.

Errr ... instead of skill+program it becomes skill+program+attribute?

Paint a room with photoshop (Edit Program) and then paint a room using 1's and 0's (Logic) or some other code language.

on the photosop thing, I know programmers who work faster in assembler than in photoshop when doing graphics

Is that a program or a language?

I'm thinking instead of skill+program+attribute directly, you could roll attribute (logic or whatever) and the number of hits you get is the number of dice you can add to skill+program.

So, going back to the original question, is this something that's just unclear in RAW? It certainly sounds that way, and that was the main thing that I wanted to confirm.

In general, I'm liking Aaron's recommendation, which seems to disallow Logic from being used in any situation where a specific program can be used instead. I worry that adding 5-10 dice on top of a normal skill+program pool could make hacking anything that doesn't have a Logic attribute too easy.

On the other hand, that would imply that you simply couldn't perform an action for which you had no program.

Would some sort of a default penalty be appropriate to allow a decker to use Logic in place of a program? Even then, if it was only a -2 penalty, a super-intelligent hacker would ignore most programs--but then, maybe that's a reasonable assumption to begin with.

I like the idea of allowing a hacker to use Logic, to some degree. I think of it as the hacker adding a new bit of code on the fly to his utility, to try an make it work a little better for the current situation.

As I understand it from the description, hacking on the fly is considered a more "brute force" approach and thus is more likely to trigger an alert.

I would think that aside from drain, hacking should use the same mechanic as for casting spells.

Pool = Logic + Hacking Skill

Damage/Effect = Programme rating + net hits [with maximum hits applicable = programme rating]

how about rolling logic and the number of hits is the number of extra dice it gives to the skill test?

The hacker in my games who starts asking for Logic in addition to other pools, or in lieu of weaker programs, is the hacker who gets what he wants, and somehow runs into nothing but ultraviolets filled with hideous forms of black ice that dissolve his mind from the inside out.

Are you listening, Red?

Hm. I kinda also like the idea of Logic+Skill with a max hits based on something like twice the program rating. You could be a smart, skilled guy, but if you're stuck using a piddly program, it'll really limit you.

I think that would lower the value of the program, i would see people getting rank 3 programs just to save money cause most people dont get more than 6 successes unless they have an ungodly pool.
Logic 10 + Skill 7 + Hot Sim (2) = Max pool of 19 dice for matrix actions unless you have some adept hacker munchkin...
Most hackers would have on average logic 4-5 and skill 4-5 with hotsim. This leads to an average of 3-5 hits per roll. With programs limiting hits to their rank*1 they mean more and you will see more rank 4-5 programs.

You have to figure out what to do when you have no program, though.

With magic, it's simple... you can't cast what you don't know.

With hacking, it just doesn't quite make sense that you can't disarm that data bomb because you don't have a purpose-built program with you.

I was also wondering... is there any reason why a TM *shouldn't* carry a commlink with a few programs on it to balance out their weak points? It will take a heck of a lot of karma to get CFs raised to 6 everywhere.

Off the top of my head, if the person didnt have a Hacking program, Disable Databomb for example, they couldnt do it. If they didnt have a Normal one like Search, then they default to 1 cause all the normal ones come with your OS in the RAW.
For TM IMO they cant use Hacker skills like they use their TM skills. Hacking (Hacker) and Hacking ™ are 2 entirely different things. He would have to skill in both... The plus side is they dont really have to cause they can always thread a CF they dont have. It is just a pain to do.
All that said about the TM, it doesnt mean they CANT carry around a commlink. Infact IMO they should if just to be a decoy.
Edit: I agree with FanGirl on that Houserule. It makes TM and Hackers a little more even IMO.

Yes, that's what I just said I'm doing! If a TM uses a commlink frequently (but never for shady stuff) then it's much harder to pin anything on him.

EDIT: Actually, you're agreeing with Emo; it was all his idea.

*Shoots self in head*

In order to avoid the ”Idiot Savant” syndrome (logic 1 hacker with whizbang software and commlink) that can hack just about anything but is a drooling idiot everywhere else. We did the following:

Logic: A characters understanding of how a program works, its limitations and versatility in a given situation

Intuition: A characters understanding in how to exploit the programs abilities in unusual ways and an imaginative mind to come up with unusual solutions.

The maximum rating of a program a character can use is (Logic+Intuition) / 2.

This solution means that you *need* a certain level of intelligence and intuitive mind in order to fully use a complex program. In the case of the Idiot Savant it *could* be a wonder child with a logic of 1 and Intuition 7 who could use a rating 4 program but they should be rare, very rare (mostly because their survival in the shadows would be almost nil.)

This way your Logic and Intuition functions like some version of Response since it effectively limits your effective program rating.

which runs counter to Canon history

as the High Logic Government Hackers Died at the Hands of the '29 crash Virus

But a bunch of Intuitive Mavericks (high Intuition, Low Logic) Roxored the Soxors of the virus.

FanPro got this one right
Deal with it.
(Synner: See, when you guys do good I acknowledge it."

Not really - they took the most gifted kids... which would have a higher logic than the agents, in fact.

No
They took Gifted Mavericks

Now I don't know abotu you, but In my experience, most maverick hackers I know are very high on the intuition, although their logic and planning leaves someting to be desired

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=...ndpost&p=302082

FanPro, please shut this complaint up
Move all computer skills to be linked to intuition, to reflct the Echo Mirage stories

While I was thinking this whole issue over, I thought about my parents. They're both highly intelligent (high Logic Attribute), but not very computer savvy. I recalled all of the various times I was called upon to fix, support, or otherwise assist them. Consider, if you will:

• My mother was looking for Irish songs with the name Sarah in them. She knew that Google was a popular search engine (the Browse program), so she used it. She began by typing in various search strings (including "Sarah" and "Irish Songs"), but she didn't get what she wanted; her Data Search skill was low to non-existant. She called her son, who used the same program with a better skill rating. No attributes involved.
• My father was dealing with a very slow computer, especially during anything involving disc access. I told him to defragment his hard drive, which didn't help him. I told him to use the defragging program that came with his operating system (I suppose that would be Edit for the program? Yes, for copying data), and that didn't help him either. I had to use the program myself (with my Computer skill) to get the job done. No attributes involved.
• This isn't family-related, but I had a particularly unwise student who was none too bright. Somehow, he learned where to get some scripts to hack the school's network. He studied up on how to use the scripts and how to exploit the (old, creaky) network, and applied what he had learned (his Hacking skill, or rather a specialization) and the scripts (Exploit program) and compromised the network. Then, to show his low Logic Attribute, bragged about it to everybody who would listen. Except for the bragging, no attributes involved.

So it looks like if it's entirely in the Matrix, one's Attributes don't matter; it's all about the proggies.

round and round and round we go, where it will end, nobody knows...