Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Shadowrun . . . alas, it fades
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Union Jane
So continues the gnashing of the teeth.

We're closing in one year since the sourebook's release date and still no GM screen to be had. The first adventure has yet to hit print. I don't really know what to say. I should think that FanPro would have had some kind of agenda for SR4, rather than hurrying to make last year's GenCon. A better plan would have been waiting until GenCon 2006 for a release, so that other products would be ready for publication immediately following. I expect such behaviour from my local D20 company, dodgy fellows that they are, but I have always held Shadowrun to a hire standard.

Perhaps that was my mistake.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Union Jane)
We're closing in one year since the sourebook's release date and still no GM screen to be had.  The first adventure has yet to hit print.

I don't know about the rest of the world but here in Germany both On The Run and the GM Screen (German versions) are available in print.
Daddy's Little Ninja
Stiggysbaby in the US has what look like an Adventure.
stevebugge
I picked up a copy of "On the Run" at Gary's Games in North Seattle last Thursday. It is available, though it may be selling fast.
BookWyrm
O_O

I've got to check with my local supplier.
Union Jane
Alrighty then, I stand corrected. The first product in support of SR4 was released 9-10 months after the rulebook.
Zolhex
well I have the first adventure and I understand the gm screen is coming soon.

As for time SR4 was released in Aug. 2005 so that makes it 8 months right? and in the next 3 months they have plans to drop what 2 or 3 books on the market?
Synner
Actually due to various delays the printed version of SR4 only reached stores in late September/October 2005. So the first release was about 7-8 months (and three printings) after the core book (if you don't count the pdf release more than a month ago). People tend to forget that FanPro is a two guy outfit which runs two successful lines (SR and Battletech) and is developing a third (The Dark Eye). There's only so many projects that can be developed simultaneously.

Several of the core supplements are in advanced stages of development, but are being thoroughly checked and crosschecked for compatibility and streamlining to ensure minimal bloat and complete integration with the existing system. If they were less critical releases maybe FanPro would have already put them out the door, but these are the core books for the entire system and they need to be done right.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Synner)
Actually due to various delays the printed version of SR4 only reached stores in late September/October 2005. So the first release was about 7-8 months (and three printings) after the core book (if you don't count the pdf release more than a month ago).

Several of the core supplements are in advanced stages of development, but are being thoroughly checked and crosschecked for compatibility and streamlining to ensure minimal bloat and complete integration with the existing system. If they were less critical releases maybe FanPro would have already put them out the door, but these are the core books for the entire system and they need to be done right.

And I can appreciate that reasoning. After some of the nearly game breaking and poorly thought out additions put out in SR 2 & 3 in the in depth focus books (see my comments about whirling in the martial arts thread for an example of what I mean) I fully support a slower release schedule if it means a better end product. Besides it's always easier to add something later than to include it right away and then discover it wasn't a good idea and remove it later. Hopefully the playtesters are pushing the envelope enough to find the problem rules before the books go to print.
Ancient History
Hey, at least you can't complain that keeping current with SR4 puts a big dent in your wallet.
frostPDP
Take your time. Give us good products.

I still play SR3 but with some SR4 mods (Wireless Matrix and the Contacts system) but make more stuff better smile.gif Bad grammar, I know.
Daddy's Little Ninja
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Hey, at least you can't complain that keeping current with SR4 puts a big dent in your wallet.

ssshhhh that was Snow Fox' big argument remember. say it too loudly and she will find something else to get grumpy about.
Eldritch
QUOTE
People tend to forget that FanPro is a two guy outfit which runs two successful lines (SR and Battletech) and is developing a third (The Dark Eye). There's only so many projects that can be developed simultaneously.


Well then, why add a third line? Focus on what you have, develop it and get it out the door. Nothing kills a game quicker than a dodgey release schedule.

I mean if they are not having success with BT or SR, then drop one in favor of the new line.

If SR and BT are both successful, I would think they want to shore up their release schedule, keep a steady stream of books coming into their fans hands than try something new - and risky.

Snow_Fox
It's worse than that. They abandoned 3rd ed. Those of us who won't switch are just going on with the stuff we have and no incentive to go to 4th ed. I mena really. I've got lots of books on magic, wheels, guns and tech ofr 3rd ed or just a basic book for 4th. hmmm, which gives me a richer world to play in?

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ May 10 2006, 10:10 AM)
QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 9 2006, 03:18 PM)
Hey, at least you can't complain that keeping current with SR4 puts a big dent in your wallet.

ssshhhh that was Snow Fox' big argument remember. say it too loudly and she will find something else to get grumpy about.

You are toast!
James McMurray
There's no such thing as having a new edition without "abandoning" the old. Doing that would leave two Shadowrun lines competing with one another. The game has a hard enough time competing witht he rest of the world without a civil war int he print house.
blakkie
... posted twice for double the fun ...
blakkie
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ May 10 2006, 07:04 PM)
It's worse than that. They abandoned 3rd ed. Those of us who won't switch are just going on with the stuff we have and no incentive to go to 4th ed. I mena really. I've got lots of books on magic, wheels, guns and tech ofr 3rd ed or just a basic book for 4th. hmmm, which gives me a richer world to play in?

I'm not entirely convinced that R3 is better than no wheels book. wink.gif

SR4 is definately going through printing runs briskly. Someone mentioned a few months back that the SR4 BBB is outpacing what SR3 BBB sales were. They didn't mention if that was in dollars or units, but even if just in dollars that seems much less a fade than a revitalization. I think that longterm both they and players are going to be better served by figuring out the secondary core books as a whole. The best of course is doing that before even the BBB hits the printers, but alas we live in a resource limited world.

EDIT: Longterm SR4 BBB sales might slump a bit over the SR3 BBB given that there hasn't been any word yet of the SR4 BBB bindings being prone to falling apart. cyber.gif
Witness
Feels to me like having fewer sourcebooks means having more room to play with the setting using your own imagination. That's a bad thing?
fistandantilus4.0
not everyone wants to go through all the hassle, or appreciate the ideas given to them as tools to work with. Besides, you can always go off canon, or just run your game in an area not covered by a sourcebook. But at least with the book in front of you (or on the shelf) you have the option to use it or not. Without it, your option is simply... not.
blakkie
I would prefer the books in hand.

But not having them is working ok. Especially when you have none of them. The awkward part is to come when you have some but not all. Hopefully they'll be able to bring them out on a relatively fast schedule once they get them all squared with each other. Still though there is quite likely going to be a minimum full year between Street Magic and Unwired because marketing theory says you spread out your releases some so they don't compete with each other and don't up your costs by requiring a bigger delivery structure to handle near simultaneous product releases.
Kremlin KOA
However that theory falls down wiith something like RPG books
especially if R&D costs are low due to being primarily an edition change

releasing all the "Fatsplats" simultaneously would mean higher sales in the first 3-6 months followed by a faster drop to the trickle level expected from them in the long term

this initial cash injection could be used to reinvest into the production of more adventure and storyline books

meaning a faster growth cycle

That was how WOTC turned D&D around from a money loser to a huge cash cow
blakkie
I contend that WotC turned around D&D because they had the cash backing to spend comparatively enormous amounts on R&D, with the the freedom to playtest the living crap out of it to get it "right" according to a very well conceived marketing plan. Basically they had the size and the potential market size to make feasible a high quality product.....and then they made it.

D&D has traditionally been a 3 book to SR's 1 BBB, and effectively are one release. The 3e *books actually took a fair amount of time to come out.
JongWK
IIRC, some of the basic splatbooks for D&D 3E (like Song & Silence) sourcebook) came out almost 2 years after the core books were released.
blakkie
It was definately over a year but something less than 2. Was it GenCon 2000 that 3e came out at? S&S, i remember because i like my rogues, came out christmas 2001 and Masters of the Wild was after that in late winter/early spring 2002.
SL James
QUOTE (Witness)
Feels to me like having fewer sourcebooks means having more room to play with the setting using your own imagination. That's a bad thing?

You've never had your imagination co-opted by sourcebook retconning, have you?
Witness
QUOTE (SL James)
You've never had your imagination co-opted by sourcebook retconning, have you?

indifferent.gif
I understand all the words in that question, without actually understanding what you're getting at!
Witness
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
not everyone wants to go through all the hassle, or appreciate the ideas given to them as tools to work with. Besides, you can always go off canon, or just run your game in an area not covered by a sourcebook. But at least with the book in front of you (or on the shelf) you have the option to use it or not. Without it, your option is simply... not.

Fair point. Personally I get a bit anal and want everything to fit together just so. So if a new book comes out and doesn't fit with what I've done before, it irritates me!
Is this what SL James was getting at?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Witness @ May 11 2006, 06:04 AM)
Feels to me like having fewer sourcebooks means having more room to play with the setting using your own imagination. That's a bad thing?

You've never had your imagination co-opted by sourcebook retconning, have you?

...happened when the old TT sourcebook came out. Had a well detailed setting worked up for Portland, the Government wasn't run by a bunch of paranoid IEs & Spikers, and mercy me, there was no bleedin' GD involved at all.

Even had some interesting local flavour like a family of Dwarves that ran a chain of Brewpubs (the MacTarnahans), The MAX Tram (there is no subway never has been never will be - too much unstable sandy soil), The Boehmian Hawthorne District, and the Ritzy district was still Old Laurelhurst (where some michevious slot of a mage quickened confusion spells on a number of the intersections as a joke - mind you Laurelhurst has streeets that nearly go in circles on themselves).

...then someone got the TT book. Needless to say, the campaign ended very quickly after that, though it did give ma a decent plot device and a neat NPC (of my own concept) for a possible future arc but not set in the TT.

...Ohh yeah, and there was no "Berlin Wall" around Portland.
Witness
Yeah that's a bummer. Can see it happening to my Vancouver setting. Of course it should just be nothing more than a minor bummer. Like fistandantilus3.0 said, you could ignore it. Wouldn't have thought it reason enough to end a game and dump a load of ideas that you love!
James McMurray
Why couldn't you just continue playing in your version of TT? It's pretty easy to tell the person, "that's a great book, but it ain't how it works in this world."
Shrike30
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
It's worse than that. They abandoned 3rd ed. Those of us who won't switch are just going on with the stuff we have and no incentive to go to 4th ed.

Man, I was so pissed off when SR2 came out. They abandoned 1st ed! Those of us who wouldn't switch were just going on with the stuff we had and no incentive to switch over to 2nd ed... wobble.gif

Can you name another gaming company that's continued producing products for an older version of a game after they made a new version? Because I can't come up with any, off the top of my head.
Shrike30
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Why couldn't you just continue playing in your version of TT? It's pretty easy to tell the person, "that's a great book, but it ain't how it works in this world."

Hey, the CZ around chicago stayed up for the longest time in my campaigns... i mean, years and years.

Well, maybe not. Chicago had always been swarmed by bugs "a few months ago." Not quite the same thing.
James McMurray
Sword and Fist: 01/2001
Defenders of the Faith: 05/2001
Tome and Blood: 07/2001
Song and Silence: 12/2001
Masters of the Wild: 02/2002

Now their sourcebooks are pouring out at one or more per month. Shadowrun will most likely never reach that level of production, but it could definitely support a one per month schedule for the first three or four books in SR4 (Guns and Gear, Magic, Matrix, and Vehicles).
blakkie
QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2006, 01:09 PM)
Sword and Fist: 01/2001
Defenders of the Faith: 05/2001
Tome and Blood: 07/2001
Song and Silence: 12/2001
Masters of the Wild: 02/2002

So 5 months till the first one, 18 months till the last one. Fanpro is most definately behind that schedule, it'll likely be at about 10 months or so that Street Magic comes out. If they then manage to get out the rest in 4-5 month intervals they'll wrap up at around 2 years. Probably would have been better if they had gotten Street Magic out earlier this year at around 8 months, or even earlier. *shrug* Not exactly the end of the world.

What was the spread for SR3?

QUOTE
Now their sourcebooks are pouring out at one or more per month. Shadowrun will most likely never reach that level of production, but it could definitely support a one per month schedule for the first three or four books in SR4 (Guns and Gear, Magic, Matrix, and Vehicles).


For one thing WotC is in some ways bringing out those books under multiple lines under the D&D umbrella. They are trying to keep them spread broad so they don't compete with themselves. SR has never seen that sort of production level. WW tried to pull that crap like that and were drowning themselves in dilution.

Oh, and I don't see myself dropping $120 over 4 months on just SR so I'm guessing there are quite a few people even here that would have a hard time just coming up with that money let alone rationalizing the expendature.

P.S. I think the actual breakdown is Magic, Gear/Guns/Vehicles, Cyber/Bio/Nano, and Matrix.
James McMurray
You don't need to have all the people spending money the instant the book hits the shelves, just a good portion of them. I know almost everyone in my group would buy them the instant they hit, at least the ones that fit their character(s).
the_dunner
QUOTE (blakkie)
P.S. I think the actual breakdown is Magic, Gear/Guns/Vehicles, Cyber/Bio/Nano, and Matrix.

While Matrix isn't on the release schedule, that supposition is definitely consistent with what's listed in the 2006 FanPro Catalog.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Why couldn't you just continue playing in your version of TT? It's pretty easy to tell the person, "that's a great book, but it ain't how it works in this world."

..it was dealing with the Canon junkies. Got tired of the debates on what is "correct" holding gaming sessions hostage.

In a spectacular finale, I had Prince Dugan abdicate from the Council, close her company, blow up her Laurelhurst Park estate (and take the PF installation at Hayden Island out as well just for kicks), move to the kingdom of Hawai'i, adopt her birthright and her true name ("Princess Kam" - her full name is rather long as most Hawai'ian names are). She has since re-established her innovative technology company (Aeon) and just loves pushing the envelope to some extremes that would have even Mr Spock from ST TOG call, "Fascinating".

The only writeups on the Island Kingdom are in Paradise Lost (now somewhat outdated) and a brief mention in SoA, so there is a lot of room left open compared to the TTSB.
Synner
QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2006, 07:09 PM)
Shadowrun will most likely never reach that level of production, but it could definitely support a one per month schedule for the first three or four books in SR4 (Guns and Gear, Magic, Matrix, and Vehicles).

LOL. Let's see:
WotC (before trim down this year and RPG only): 5 line developers, 6 full time editors, 4 art directors, 4 production managers, inhouse layout and outsourced art and writers.

Shadowrun: 1 line developer/editor/art director/production manager, everything outsourced.

Right. I can see where you would expect ever seeing the same sort of output level.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
..it was dealing with the Canon junkies. Got tired of the debates on what is "correct" holding gaming sessions hostage.

... wow.

That's the kind of situation that'd have me telling players to take a walk. If you've got months or years of this setting already developed in a game, that's a hell of a lot of work and a hell of a lot of familiarity that's going to go straight down the drain if they're going to insist that the "book version" is correct.
James McMurray
Synner: I didn't say I expect it, nor that staffing levels would allow it. I said that the market for Shadowrun books could handle that release schedule, if only for the first three or four books that everybody will want.

Kyoto: A simple "shut the hell up, that book doesn't exist in this world" couldn't fix things? My sympathies. My general stance is that if I don't own the book the things in it don't exist. Generally I can borrow the book and then decide what exists, or we can drop certain things in (like new gear or spells).
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Shrike30)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
..it was dealing with the Canon junkies. Got tired of the debates on what is "correct" holding gaming sessions hostage.

... wow.

That's the kind of situation that'd have me telling players to take a walk. If you've got months or years of this setting already developed in a game, that's a hell of a lot of work and a hell of a lot of familiarity that's going to go straight down the drain if they're going to insist that the "book version" is correct.

...That's kinda what I did by pulling the plug. Got tired of trying to Crowbar my Canon into FASA'a Canon.

Of course, as I alluded to in my original comment, it has left a very interesting situation that is leading to a new campaign arc entitled "Enemy of the Tir"

Unfortunately It won't be ready to run until Street Magic and the Hacker/Rigger supplement is out (need those bleedin' vehicle design rules).
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2006, 07:09 PM)
Shadowrun will most likely never reach that level of production, but it could definitely support a one per month schedule for the first three or four books in SR4 (Guns and Gear, Magic, Matrix, and Vehicles).

LOL. Let's see:
WotC (before trim down this year and RPG only): 5 line developers, 6 full time editors, 4 art directors, 4 production managers, inhouse layout and outsourced art and writers.

Shadowrun: 1 line developer/editor/art director/production manager, everything outsourced.

Right. I can see where you would expect ever seeing the same sort of output level.

Sleep, it's overrated!
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 10 2006, 09:12 PM)
There's no such thing as having a new edition without "abandoning" the old. Doing that would leave two Shadowrun lines competing with one another. The game has a hard enough time competing witht he rest of the world without a civil war int he print house.

I understand that, but my point is they ended the 3rd ed line, but the 4th ed line has not really been picked up. Like they laid down one sword without taking up a new one, but forgetting to quit the fight. Or Tarzan, swinging through the jungle lets go of the vine that falls behind him and kind of forgets to grab the one ahead of him. (Watch out for that TREE!)
Rajaat99
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Man, I was so pissed off when SR2 came out. They abandoned 1st ed! Those of us who wouldn't switch were just going on with the stuff we had and no incentive to switch over to 2nd ed... wobble.gif

I hated SR2 too. They should've stuck to SR1, it was perfect Shadowrun. The only reason I switched to SR3 is because all my SR1 stuff got stolen. SR3 was an attempted fix at a broken SR2. SR4 is (pardon my expression) dumbed down. That's why I don't play D&D 3.5 (whatever they're on), or WW.
So, that's what I'm doing with SR3, holding on to it until it falls apart (or gets stolen).
But anyway, I would like to see some back history books (2065-2070) and more current events (What is Karl Kombatmage up to in 2070?).
Rajaat99
QUOTE (Synner @ May 11 2006, 08:58 PM)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2006, 07:09 PM)
Shadowrun will most likely never reach that level of production, but it could definitely support a one per month schedule for the first three or four books in SR4 (Guns and Gear, Magic, Matrix, and Vehicles).

LOL. Let's see:
WotC (before trim down this year and RPG only): 5 line developers, 6 full time editors, 4 art directors, 4 production managers, inhouse layout and outsourced art and writers.

Shadowrun: 1 line developer/editor/art director/production manager, everything outsourced.

Right. I can see where you would expect ever seeing the same sort of output level.

I'm failing to see why that's our problem? Hire more people and take our money!
Get all those stupid rules books out of the way (but wait, if SR4 is so perfect, why do you need more rule books, won't it just complicate things?), and get to making setting books.
Dog
I've been taking my sweet time picking up SR4 looking it over, sharing and discussing with my buds, etc. I finally have formed an opinion.

I'm in the same camp as Rajaat99. I'll play SR3 until I can't play no more. If SR4 isn't impressing me by then, I'll probably have to look for something new. As it stands, there's just nothing in SR4 to make the change worthwhile. New rules does not a new edition make. It feels incomplete and skeletal, and lacks character.
blakkie
QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ May 11 2006, 09:11 PM)
I'm failing to see why that's our problem? Hire more people and take our money!

I can just imagine the ruckus, not to mention lack of sales, that would be raised with an US$100 retail price on Street Magic. nuyen.gif extinguish.gif

QUOTE
Get all those stupid rules books out of the way (but wait, if SR4 is so perfect, why do you need more rule books, won't it just complicate things?), and get to making setting books.


I personally find SR4 very playable without the extra books, and would hate to see Fanpro take the attitude of "getting them out of the way". But then i don't play with canon junkies and am comfortable with converted stuff and stuff just made up, especially things NPC. Nor do we play a really high powered game, we started new 400BP characters with this edition.

P.S. Fanpro is already, i believe, in the editting process for the first setting book. Not to mention the numerous ones already out that are largely still relavent and are virtually edition independant.
Synner
QUOTE (blakkie @ May 12 2006, 04:46 AM)
P.S. Fanpro is already, i believe, in the editting process for the first setting book. Not to mention the numerous ones already out that are largely still relavent and are virtually edition independant.

FanPro currently has no less than 6 books in various stages of production (with On the Run and the GM screen already out). Runner Havens , the first in a series of core setting books, will be the next up - it is in the very final stages of development. All the remaining releases for 2006 are also in development as well as a couple of surprises.
Ophis
Any chance on a release date for runner havens?

Just wondering, I'm eager to see it.
Adam
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
Sleep, it's overrated!

Having just worked about 18 hours straight through on one book, and then woken up at 6AM to work until I drop again ... sleep, sometimes, is quite nice. wink.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012