Full Version: Look at the bow
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
Big pointy swords should definitely be more damaging than tiny arrows. Luckily there's an easy fix known as Mr. House Rule.  |
yeah but which way do you house rule it. Do mellee weapons get bumped up to str+x or does the bow get bumped down to 1/2 str+2. I'm leaning towards the latter since my 16p bow for my troll and 13p bow for my orc seem a bit absurd. Especially for the NPC gang I'm making. Man 16P even the white knight can't do that kind of damage without specialty ammo. I'm not sure if my players will appreciate my humor when I say resist power 10 poison from a narcojet poison, oh and you take 14 boxes of physical damage.
I guess one issue for me is the what's good for the PCs is good for the NPCs scenario. While a SMG can do a long narrow burst or 2 or a full burst, they(the PCs) generaly haven't done it in very many combat turns keeping the daamge done at a much lower level. There is no lower level for the bow, its always doing full burst damage. And this just isn't troll bows, orcs get +3 to strength, they have a 13 str max with mods without exceptional attribute making a non maxed orc a 14P bow wielder of doom. These aren't harpoons as some visualize with the troll its a roughly ordinary sized arrow.
| QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist) |
| And this just isn't troll bows, orcs get +3 to strength, they have a 13 str max with mods without exceptional attribute making a non maxed orc a 14P bow wielder of doom. These aren't harpoons as some visualize with the troll its a roughly ordinary sized arrow. |
Well, I'll disagree with the last bit a little. The usual draw for a bow is more or less 'pull it back to your chin'. Trolls are big, AND they have unusually long arms. They're going to need longer-than-normal arrows, practically speaking. They'll also need heavier arrows..in part to keep the bow from damaging itself over time, but also in order to take full advantage of the power. Harpoon is an exageration, but they'd be longer than normal arrows and might be solid rather than hollow.
Agreed. It has to be longer to match the arms of the firing character. As was pointed out earlier, an arrow just doesn't work right above certain speeds, so if you want to have more power you have to put it into mass, not speed. It's not a tree trunk, but it's a long, heavy arrow.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Big pointy swords should definitely be more damaging than tiny arrows. Luckily there's an easy fix known as Mr. House Rule. |
This is the house rule where you can load swords into a troll bow, right? We've been using that one for a while, it balances stuff out a lot.
| QUOTE (Nim) | ||
Well, I'll disagree with the last bit a little. The usual draw for a bow is more or less 'pull it back to your chin'. Trolls are big, AND they have unusually long arms. They're going to need longer-than-normal arrows, practically speaking. They'll also need heavier arrows..in part to keep the bow from damaging itself over time, but also in order to take full advantage of the power. Harpoon is an exageration, but they'd be longer than normal arrows and might be solid rather than hollow. |
sorry if I wasn't clear, my point is orcs which are roughly human sized can be dishing out the 13+p shots with there bows. And drawn to there chins makes an arrow about the same size as a humans. Trolls yeah there ginormous so the arrows would be maybe twice as big.
| QUOTE |
| yeah but which way do you house rule it. Do mellee weapons get bumped up to str+x or does the bow get bumped down to 1/2 str+2. |
whichever way you want to rule it.
I'd go with you and halve the bow damage, but some folks might want to do the other way around if you're playing a higher powered campaign.| QUOTE |
| Agreed. It has to be longer to match the arms of the firing character. |
Not in the 6th world it doesn't. At least not according to my books.
| QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist) |
| I guess one issue for me is the what's good for the PCs is good for the NPCs scenario. While a SMG can do a long narrow burst or 2 or a full burst, they(the PCs) generaly haven't done it in very many combat turns keeping the daamge done at a much lower level. There is no lower level for the bow, its always doing full burst damage. And this just isn't troll bows, orcs get +3 to strength, they have a 13 str max with mods without exceptional attribute making a non maxed orc a 14P bow wielder of doom. |
A Troll (or Orc bow) is great if you're simplistic in your style of battles, but there are plenty of practical implications that make it a poor choice. I think I outlined most of them earlier. Pick a few and enforce them if you're concerned about balance.
Yeah, no kidding. Per RAW, a Remington 990 running a shock pad, suppressor, smartlink, and the ammunition of your choice (let's say EX-EX or gel) clocks in at 9/-3, SA rate of fire instead of SS, and with the gel rounds it's resisted by impact, same as the arrows. It's relatively quiet, it hits pretty hard (and twice as often), you get a wide variety of ammunition choices, and it doesn't require you to put a massive amount of points into redlining Strength (a stat that a number of players seem to pass on, for whatever reason) in addition to the points you have to put into Agility in order to hit things with it. You can drop a box of 25 shotgun shells into a decent coat pocket (they're about 4" x 4" x 3"), and if you're using a short barrel and a pistol grip, it's not that hard to fit one under that same coat... try doing the same thing with a bow and arrows.
So, yeah... a trollbow can produce a pretty ridiculous damage code, and might be able, with a good roll, to put a hole in something like a GMC Banshee. Personally, I don't see this being a huge balance issue, when you look at the huge number of other bits and pieces of gear you can come up with that handle some of the same jobs nearly as well or better, at a noticeably lower point investment on the part of the PC, and without the Star pulling 3 foot long harpoons out of every crime scene you visit in the city. That's a real quick way to pick up "Hunted" or some Notoriety for free.
So, yeah... a trollbow can produce a pretty ridiculous damage code, and might be able, with a good roll, to put a hole in something like a GMC Banshee. Personally, I don't see this being a huge balance issue, when you look at the huge number of other bits and pieces of gear you can come up with that handle some of the same jobs nearly as well or better, at a noticeably lower point investment on the part of the PC, and without the Star pulling 3 foot long harpoons out of every crime scene you visit in the city. That's a real quick way to pick up "Hunted" or some Notoriety for free.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Dender, your cost escallation suggestions are good and all, but what if the character takes the armorer skill and wants to make his own bow? |
well, since its my character, i can honestly say its probably never going to happen. he's just not the type to do something like that
maybe a few hundred karma down the road, maybe. But by then, the partymember with armorer specializing in gunsmithing should have created an autofire panther which uses small puppies for ammunition. or something. i dunno
But i can see how others trying to make a call off of this idea would get that trouble. Apply a cost modifier and availibility increase to the workshops needed. Few people use bows, so its no big surprize that few places would stock the materals needed. If a player really wants to dump 40bp into race, 30-65 into strength and another 50 or so into being an armorer, then its the GM's job to step in and say "your character is too focused, you might want to diversify because as is, this twinkie is unplayable" if thats how the GM feels.
And making the bow's min req strength be a guideline for what the minimun bowyer skill needed to make it is a good idea. With that much power, theres a fine line between functional and a broken bowstring/snapped bow. and remember, bowyery and fletchery are two different things.
oh and dissonance: sorry. I'm fairly new to the forums and i'm very much used to the standard of people being trolls and flamers. I rather like how DS has such intellectual people who don't abide by that standard. So, i am sorry that i thought you were just trolling. My point on there being a market for it is that there is a market for things that are forbidden to own, my personal favorite being the suprathyroid.
As for physical mechanics, i'm no physicist, but it seems that there gets a point where the speed of the arrow doesn't matter anymore. That much has been confirmed by people who know more than me. But then you have the increase in size of the arrow head and the arrow itself which should kick up the damage. And since its the future, you could construct an arrowhead which, on impact, curves its edges to create either A) tearing to go with the slicing or B) a screw effect.
Sure, it might be like firing swords at people, but i noticed that they don't include weapons like the rapier, which uses the principle that it takes less than a pound of pressure to break the skin if you concentrate that force on a point.
First of all, if anyone is wondering about the fact that the bow has a higher Strength transfer than other weapons, this is perfectly accurate. Most hand weapons are simple levers, while a bow is actually a spring. Think of it as a battery: it stores energy for later use. As a result, it imparts its energy somewhat more efficiently than just swinging something around.
Second, it's not that hard to make a bow (or a ballista) in the first place, and the tools aren't nearly as exotic as you might think. I know more than enough SCAdians who do archery, all of whom can make very powerful bows and crossbows using medieval tools and equipment. With the advent of space-age materials, nanotech machining equipment, and virtual instructors with downloadable instructions, it's not that hard to get a design for a functional bow of any draw-weight desired.
Third, if you want a "troll bow", someone else here pointed out that you could easily just modify a crossbow prod, remove the crank and stock, and have something that comes fairly close. The whole point of a crosbow was to make it so people could use weapons with a draw-strength higher than their own; the difference is than in SR, we'd have people for whom it'd be unnecessary.
At any event, as others have pointed out, troll bows aren't really that much of a problem. They've got enough limits that they're not going to be replacing guns anytime soon. The same compaint was raised in SR3, and the same thing applied then: there's just too many drawbacks for super-bows to become a major balance issue. (if nothing else, think about the concealibility issue, it's a little hard to conceal a 6-foot recurve under a longcoat.
)
Second, it's not that hard to make a bow (or a ballista) in the first place, and the tools aren't nearly as exotic as you might think. I know more than enough SCAdians who do archery, all of whom can make very powerful bows and crossbows using medieval tools and equipment. With the advent of space-age materials, nanotech machining equipment, and virtual instructors with downloadable instructions, it's not that hard to get a design for a functional bow of any draw-weight desired.
Third, if you want a "troll bow", someone else here pointed out that you could easily just modify a crossbow prod, remove the crank and stock, and have something that comes fairly close. The whole point of a crosbow was to make it so people could use weapons with a draw-strength higher than their own; the difference is than in SR, we'd have people for whom it'd be unnecessary.
At any event, as others have pointed out, troll bows aren't really that much of a problem. They've got enough limits that they're not going to be replacing guns anytime soon. The same compaint was raised in SR3, and the same thing applied then: there's just too many drawbacks for super-bows to become a major balance issue. (if nothing else, think about the concealibility issue, it's a little hard to conceal a 6-foot recurve under a longcoat.
)
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| (if nothing else, think about the concealibility issue, it's a little hard to conceal a 6-foot recurve under a longcoat. ) |
Not if your name is MacLeod and you've got a guy offscreen ready to run up and hand you your bow.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||
Not if your name is MacLeod and you've got a guy offscreen ready to run up and hand you your bow. |
There can be only one!
Kinda a Highlander meets Princess Mononoke setup. Immortals riding out the ages only able to die if their head is shot from their shoulders.
Nah, cuz then we'd have to call them Elfbows.
Are those like elbows with flowers painted on them?
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| There can be only one! |
There should have been only one...
I did read all of this thread and while I agree that with normal arrows there is a point of diminishing returns with bows, they won't do more than knock a hole in you, (I miss str+4 M ) nobody seems to be discussing that in SR4 normal arrows are as likely to be in common use above amature level as lead ball and black powder guns are.
Think a super hard osmium alloy tip, that while being prohibitivley expensive in vehicle armour is easy to get in amounts small enough for an arrow tip. Then make the shaft out of strips of memory plastic with sharpened leading edges along a solid core that "pinecone" upon an inch of soft target penetration, but remain rigid upon hard target penetration.
This is one thing that should have been reflected in SR4 that was not, a bow in hand to hand ranges is just another pretty stick, and anyobody who has seen his mate stapled to the wall by one would be sure to go for the bow first, touch attack on the string with a knife, or even a frag grenade will ruin the bow, or at least take it out of combat.
) nobody seems to be discussing that in SR4 normal arrows are as likely to be in common use above amature level as lead ball and black powder guns are. Think a super hard osmium alloy tip, that while being prohibitivley expensive in vehicle armour is easy to get in amounts small enough for an arrow tip. Then make the shaft out of strips of memory plastic with sharpened leading edges along a solid core that "pinecone" upon an inch of soft target penetration, but remain rigid upon hard target penetration.
This is one thing that should have been reflected in SR4 that was not, a bow in hand to hand ranges is just another pretty stick, and anyobody who has seen his mate stapled to the wall by one would be sure to go for the bow first, touch attack on the string with a knife, or even a frag grenade will ruin the bow, or at least take it out of combat.
| QUOTE (knasser) | ||
There should have been only one... |
What is this "two" of which you speak. I have no recollection of "two" whatsoever. IT DID NOT HAPPEN.
3 and 4?
My group of friends actually uses the term "Highlander 2'ing something" when we pretend it didn't exist.
Highlander 2 would be comepletely worthless except that it generated some really cool cards for the Highlander CCG.
I think we called them: Highlander 2, the insult"; and "Highlander 3, the apology".
This is the adjustment we did on the bow for our current game:
Str Min = Rating * 3
Availability = Rating * 3
Cost = 1-2: Rating * 300; 3+: Rating * 500
Damage = (Rating * 2 + 2)P
Basically Starting Characters can only get up to a Rating 4 Bow with
Min Str of 12, Cost of 2000, and Damage of 10P. Next bow isn't available until
Str peaks 15, and then its going to cost 2500, with availability of 15 as well.
Str Min = Rating * 3
Availability = Rating * 3
Cost = 1-2: Rating * 300; 3+: Rating * 500
Damage = (Rating * 2 + 2)P
Basically Starting Characters can only get up to a Rating 4 Bow with
Min Str of 12, Cost of 2000, and Damage of 10P. Next bow isn't available until
Str peaks 15, and then its going to cost 2500, with availability of 15 as well.
Im my campaign I've houseruled bows to be (STR/2)+3P. This has worked to keep the balance in line while still making them useful tools.
The damage an object can do to the human body is based on mass and velocity.
An arrow has 10 or 20 times the mass of a bullet so it doesn't require the same speed to rend your flesh.
Many modern bows and crossbows can actually get a fairly high penetration power in flesh.
Now one simple house rule to state is. divide the DV by 2 (round down) when shooting at armored objects and ignore the number of hits. This would mean the arrow could still cleave off a mans head when fired by a troll. But would never do more then scrach an armored van.
An arrow has 10 or 20 times the mass of a bullet so it doesn't require the same speed to rend your flesh.
Many modern bows and crossbows can actually get a fairly high penetration power in flesh.
Now one simple house rule to state is. divide the DV by 2 (round down) when shooting at armored objects and ignore the number of hits. This would mean the arrow could still cleave off a mans head when fired by a troll. But would never do more then scrach an armored van.
Anyone else out there find themselves wishing Mythbusters were interested in Shadowrun?
That would be an awesome episode, where they create the robotic troll arms with 13 strength, and then create the strength 13 bow, and fire it at their lil' dummy....
That would be an awesome episode, where they create the robotic troll arms with 13 strength, and then create the strength 13 bow, and fire it at their lil' dummy....
hmmm... well, my money is on them finding it to be less damaging than whatever the panther cannon equivalent is =P
of course, they could also myth bust the panther-recoil myth while they're at it
of course, they could also myth bust the panther-recoil myth while they're at it
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