Okay, I decided to start a "dedicated" thread for criticism and advice about my characters.


so let's start!

Ten Kalos
Race: Human (0 BP)
Attributes (195 BP)
Body: 3
Agility: 6 (.8.)
Reaction: 5 (7)
Strength: 3
Charisma: 1
Intuition: 3
Logic: 2 (4)
Willpower: 2
Edge: 3
Essence: .6
Initiative: 8 (11)
Initiative Passes: 1 (3)
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 9
Notoreity: 1

Active Skills (148 BP)
Automatics (assault rifles): 7
Heavy Weapons (assault cannon): 3
Longarms: 4
Pistols (revolvers): 4
Armorer (weapon Accesories): 4
Cybertechnology (Bioware): 4
First Aid (combat wounds): 2
Electronics skill group: 1
Pilot Ground Craft (wheeled): 3

Knowledge Skills (15 free BP+8 BP)
Cybernetics History: 2

Language Skills:
English: N
Or'Zet: 4
Spanish: 4
Japanese (techie): 4
Chinese: 4
Sperethiel: 4

Qualities (+15 BP)
Toughness (10 BP)
Aptitude (Automatics) (10 BP)
Uncouth (+20 BP)
Spirit Bane (Watcher Spirits): (+10 BP)
Incompetent (pilot anthroform) (+5 BP)

Cyberware: Aluminum Bone Lacing
Wired Reflexes 2

Bioware:
Muscle Toner: 2
Bone Density Augmentation: 2
Cerebral Booster: 2

Lifestyle: Low

Gear: Urban Explorer Jumpsuit W/helmet, Sony Emperor W/ Response 2, System 2, Firewall 2, Signal 3; Ak-97 W/Gas vent 3, Shock Pad, Smartgun Link (Internal), 10 spare clips; 40 Rounds Ak-97 ammo, Ruger Superwarhawk W/Internal Smartlink;, 10 rounds ruger super warhawk EX explosiver rounds, 15 rounds Ruger Super Warhawk Ammo, Goggles W/Smartlink, image link, vision enhancement 3; Fake SIN rating 4, Fake Firearms License rating 4, Medkit Rating 6, Cybertechnology tools, GPS, Chisel, Wire Clippers, 2 Plasteel restraints, 30 plastic restraints.

Programs: Browse 2, Encrypt 2, Data Bomb 2, Scan 2, Reality Filter 1

Contacts (13 BP)
Fixer (Connection 4/Loyalty 2)
Street Doc (Connection 1/Loyalty 6)

Backround: Born in Atlanta in 2044, Ten Kalos was a typical middle-class child. He attended school, and after graduating joined the CAS Marines, specializing in treating wounds. After serving his term, he attended an academy to learn cybertechnology, and was especially fascinated by biotechnology. His SIN was lost in the crash of '64

General criticism I give to my players is usually, "Are you sure you want 6 or 7 dice already for that skill? It's a lot of extra BP for just +1/+2 dice."

Given the upper skill and attribute limit, you could probably use those point in other areas and be down a few dice which are probably made up with SmartGun links, CyberEyes and the like.

Nothing specific to your char, just my typical response to 6's and 7's at chargen.

Just a minor quirk with the gear: did you really intend to buy 10 spare AK mags and a grand total of 20 rounds of ammunition? That's not even one full mag. Your ammo count for the Super Warhawk is pretty low, too.

• Charisma 1 and no social skills. Classic newbie mistake. Life is rough when everyone hates you on sight!
• He specialised in treating wounds (field medic I assume), yet he has a skill of 2 in that, compared to a whopping exceptional 7 in automatic weapons. Your background doesn't work. As it is, he's one of the best marksman to come out of the marines, and who happens to have picked up some basic wound treating skills.
• I'm assuming this guy is a shadowrunner in the traditional sense of the term. If not, the following does not apply, but why is this guy running the shadows? He went to university in a state of the art and in demand field. Why doesn't he have a high-paying job where people *don't* try to kill maim and torture him. He lost his SIN? So what, he can get another easily.
• Spirit Bane(Watcher) spirit is by far the cheapest, munchkiny thing I've EVER seen. If I were your GM, I would either rip your sheet apart instantly or find new and inventive ways to constantly torture you with that flaw.
• Incompetant(pilot anthroform) is also pretty cheap. Though I suppose it *might* come up in your lifetime.

Not AWESOME enough.

I agree with Backgammon on all counts. This is some crunchy shit. I can't speak for your GM, but I would slap you in the face and make you eat your sheet if you tried to bring this into my game.

My only problem is he's boring. Ex-military, lost his SIN, nothing about comrades or general outlook on life. You even SAY he's a typical middle-class child...

Give him a run-in with a dragon or something. Jesus Christ.

My suggestions, Make him an elf adept, with powerpoints in pumping your agi and your automatics. Max his edge also. You should be able to max out your automatics at about 32 dice.

I mean, if your going to go for min max, go all the way!

(btw I love the watcher spirit bane, thats awesome)

Do away with these, you don't need them, if some one in your team doesn't have them either, then there is a solution that can be reached using explosives or bullets.

Cybertechnology (Bioware): 4
First Aid (combat wounds): 2
Electronics skill group: 1

Funny you should mention "classic newbie mistake" This is my third character, one of the ones I'm considering for a game where everyone is new(including me). We haven't played yet, so I have a few different characters to get in touch with the rules. The very first character I've created had the crippling problem of no contacts. Anyway, thanks for your criticism. I'll mess with it to get a few social skills and a higher charisma. My problem with the few ammunition was I thought that the prices there were meant for a full clip, not 1 ammunition. And jeez, I've just read the book and I'll ready my powergamer instincts are kicking in (I don't know why, I can't control it. No matter what game I play, once I learn the rules, I'll find some way to make a unreasonably powerful character.)

Okay.

Dude, just do what I do, start your own game and munchkin out the character creation rules. Then talk people into unwisely joining your game and bribe them with powergaming options.

Okay, after looking at your suggestions and criticisms, This is the character I will be playing:


DUDUKAIN
Race: Ork (20 BP)
Attributes (280 BP)
Body: 6
Agility: 5
Reaction: 4 (7)
Strength: 4
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Willpower: 2
Edge: 3
Essence: 6
Initiative: 9 (12)
Magic: 6

Initative passes: 1 (4)
Physical Damage Track: 11
Stun Damage Track: 9

Active Skills (92 BP)
Blades (swords): 6((+2)
Pistols (Revolvers): 3 (+2)
Infiltration: 2
Negotiation: 3
Pilot Ground Craft: 3
First Aid (Combat Wounds): 4 (+2)
Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts): 4(+2)

Knowledge Skills (24 free BP)
CAS politics 3

Language Skills
Or'Zek: N
English: 6
Japanese: 3

Qualities(+20 BP):
Adept (5 BP)
Spirit Bane (Watcher Spirits)(+10 BP)
Allergy (Moderate, Platinum)(+10 BP)
Toughness (10 BP)
Incompetent (Pilot Anthroform)(+5 BP)
Simsense Vertigo(+10 BP)

Adept Powers:
Improved Reflexes: 3
Improved Blades Ability: 2

Lifestyle: low

Gear(7 BP): Ruger Super Warhawk with Internal Smartlink, 715 rounds heavy pistol ammo, Monofilament Sword, Urban Explorer Jumsuit, Medkit Rating 6, Goggles W/Image Link, Smartlink, Vision Enhancement 3, Flare Compensation; Headphones W/Audio Enhancement 3, Electronic Paper, 50 plastic restraints, CMT Clip commlin W/Redcap Nix OS, Weapon Focus 2 (attuned), Autopicker rating 6, Armorer Tools

Contacts (21 BP)
Fixer(Connection 4/Loyalty 4)
Talismonger(Connection 4/Loyalty 4)
Street Doc(Connection 1/Loyalty 6)


Notes:
Natural low Light vision

No backround yet.

I don't see any ware listed, so how did he get 3 passes per turn and plus 3 reaction? If its from wired reflexes, standard character creation availability excludes them.

the 3 IPs are from an adept power, if i'm not mistaken (improved reflexes for +2 IP costs 3 points, if i'm not mistaken...)

but i don't recall the adept power adding to reaction as well.

Wow, I totally missed that. My bad. It does add reaction also. Although I think you typoed it onto agility.

One thing I would mention from a powergaming point of view, is your strength 4 is the same for damage calculations as a strength 3 is, due to the rounding.

I'm not surprised you missed it. There is no Magic attribute listed.
I thought the build points spent on attributes were rather off.

To follow on Squinky's point, if you drop your Strength to 3 you can bump your Willpower to 3, which you use to resist Stun damage. It also puts your Stun Damage Track to 10, which could be handy.

Even with a Magic of 6, I'm getting:

30 points - Body: 6
40 points - Agility: 5
30 points - Reaction: 4
10 points - Strength: 4
20 points - Charisma: 3
30 points - Intuition: 4
10 points - Willpower: 2
20 points - Edge: 3
65 points - Magic: 6
Grand Total: 255

You have 280. I assume you forget about the ork Attribute bonuses, but only spent 50 points on the Magic of 6 (Actually, that last point costs 25, not 10, points). Also, the +3 bonus should have gone to Reaction, not Agility, and it is also Reaction that helps determine initiative.

Oh joy. YES!!!!

I suggest to remove the 4 points in dodge. Every single one. You will parry in melee and in ranged combat you won't use full dodge. Ever. I have played 8 SR 4 sessions now, and although my character does not have the dodge skill, there wasn't a single time when he could have used it. Dodge is a skill like raising puppies. But at least you can talk your GM into somehow involving the skill "raise puppies". You do not need dodge, really. Even if it had half the skill costs(2 GP per point), I would not think about taking it.
So, you got 16 free GPs now. Specialice your two social skills, you will be able to use them often. 12 GP left.
Get an unarmed skill. Either at lvl 2 specialized(still 2 free GP) or at lvl 3.
Your weapon focus is not yet specified. I suggest a monofilament sword for style(katanas are for the casual mainstream-freak, you know), that badass-axe(forgot its name) for substance.

Okay, I edited him.

Note that you should have unarmed combat to defend, or dodge(but since dodge sucks, get unarmed combat). You do not want to be helpless until you draw your blade(which has not been specified yet, either, if I did not miss something)

Switched Armorer to Unarmed Combat.

Dodge is only required for the full dodge action. In melee it can be replaced by unarmed combat to deflect attacks, which is a better investment, since you can also use it to attack. You can even use full parry in melee to get the same results as with full dodge.
In ranged combat, of course, full dodge is your only option if you wish to increase your chances of not getting hit. At the cost of sacrificing your actions this phase.
You sacrifice your chances of hitting at all for a slightly better chance of not getting hit. That simply is not a fair trade.
It is always a better decision to attack yourself and maybe blow an opponent to the ground. Attack is the best defense, because it weakens your opponents. In SR, unlike many other RPGs, this is so true.
While it may be cool to get out of a bullet rain like Neo, it does not work in your favor. Because you do not look cool anymore when lying lifelessly on the ground.
For creating a working dodge-monster, use the spell or the adept power combat sense, but that is a different story.

I was very recently caught out in the open with multiple opponents targeting me. As I scrambled to get to cover, dodge came in VERY handy and saved my ass. Waiting around to try to kill them all was NOT a good choice. =)

Go dodge!

Yeah I agree that you don't need dodge. But, you do need gymnastics instead. You can use that during a full defense in place of dodge, and the others (parrying with weapon or unarmed) for the other instances. If you don't have a character with parrying ability along with gymnastics, then just buy dodge. I hope that makes sense.

Gymnastics is better to me all around. From a roleplaying perspective it is something someone can actually be trained in, I wonder where they have dodging schools? Also, for the skill points you also get a good skill that you can use elsewhere, hell you can even specialize in dance with it I beleive.

It's also easier to upgrade. If you are an adept Gymnastics cost .25 per point to increase the skill, while dodge runs a .5. Cyber-folks can only up dodge with reflex recorders, while gymanstics can benefit from enhanced articulation + synthacardium +reflex recorder for a total of up to +5 on gymnastics (and some on other athletic skills) if you wanted to be a total monkey.

6 languages... wow. Even linguists in the military only learn one other language. You might want to drop it to a max of 3 languages and get other knowledge skills.. like military tactics, history of the armed forces, Medical Techniques, How to kill a man with a balled up news paper, etc.

I don't see anything in the rulebook about using gymnastics to dodge.

Note that Gymnastics Dodge is only an option when on Full Defense. The normal Dodge skill has a myriad of other times it can be used, such as with normal melee attacks. Gymnastics only helps with Full Defense. Boo! =(

See Defending Against Melee Attacks, SR4 page 147.

Honestly, I don't find the Spirit Bane: Watcher Spirits to be that munchkiny. At first glance it might appear so... until you figure how many watcher spirits could potentially be around that decided to materialize and start harrassing you and making you stand out.

All shadowrunners are not gymnasts. It's not D&D where everyone and their brother has Tumbling. =)

Let me see if I can summarize this succinctly and correctly...

If you're a gymnast, and a good one, who also has a good melee/unarmed skill then there's no reason to ALSO purchase Dodge.

Most runners find jumping a useful thing to do. The buy Gymnastics to do this. They are not olympic level or anything.

Plus no one in any of my SR4 gangs has ever used the action to dodge. They all prefer to return fire, or take some sort of action other than getting clear.

It seems strange that jumping in SR4 is based on Gymnastics rather than Athletics. High jumpers and long jumpers aren't gymnasts, they're athletes. Gymnasts are known for balance, flexibility, upper body strength, and grace... all of which makes sense in the context of the Gymnastic Dodge. It doesn't make sense to me in the context of high/long jumping.

Note to self: AHA! There is no Athletics skill anymore. Just the Athletics skill group. This was confusing because there are a number of examples in the book using Athletics as a skill (Strength + Athletics roll to break down doors for example). Athletics is even listed on page 74 as an example of Active skills.

So, for those of us who routinely purchased Athletics in SR3, apparently the analog in SR4 is Gymnastics. Thanks for bringing this to my attention! =)

I don't know how "pure" of an adept you want to make this guy, but if it wouldn't violate the concept that you have of the character, you might want to put some of those extra points into resources, and buy some bioware. From a pure min-maxing standpoint, 1 Essense point of bioware gives you a lot more than one point of magic.

For example, if you got muscle toner: 2, reflex recorder/edged weapons, synthcardium: 3, and platelet factories, then you would have +2 to all agility-based skills, an additional +1 to your edged weapons skill, +3 to all athletics skills (which includes gymnastics, if you take it instead of dodge), and less damage if you are wounded in combat. And all you would lose would be two points of improved ability - and you are getting the equivalent of it (but for more than just one skill) with the agility boost alone.

No bioware, and can we get back on the topic of my character as opposed to the benefits of gymnastics and dodge?

Dudukain's background:

Born in Atlanta in the CAS in 2044, he worked with Docwagon until 2063, when he disobeyed Docwagon policy by rescuing a dying man from an extraterritorial area, as he put it to his team "screw extraterritoriality, their's somebody dying out their and all you idiots can think of is bloody extraterritoriality!" He was fired from Docwagon for this incident, and became officially wanted by Aztechnology two months later, as the person he saved was a hired shadowrunner in possesion of several secret documents. Luckily for him, his SIN was obliterated in the crash of '64, meaning Aztechnology no longer had a SIN to track him by. With no SIN and wanted by Aztechnology, unable to be employed by any hospital, Dudukain used the skills he had learned rescuing people from gangs and other violent criminals at Docwagon, a knowledge of arcane arts, and skill at first aid, he became a walker in the shadows.

Hey, cool. I've got a character with a former DocWagon background as well. I do see quite a few problems trying to reconcile your background with the character sheet though. He was a Docwagon medic, yet the only medical skill I see is a 2 (novice) in First aid, which is a novice rating. I would expect a DocWagon medic to be at least a 3, probably a 4+ in First Aid. You probably don't need the medicine skill (that's not really what field medics do) but maybe a couple of points in knowledge skills directed towards medicine. The biggest thing that stands out to me is that, at the age of 19 he had enough clout to order an entire DocWagon crew to do something they knew was against SOP. If he was a 15 year veteran and senior man on the team, OK, but at 19, I'd expect this guy to be the green wet behind the ears new guy. They would have told him to shut up and sit down when he started the whole 'screw extraterritoriality' spiel.

As for the character sheet itself, while it seems to be legal with the RAW, I find the Incompetent (pilot anthroform) to be MEGA-cheesey. My *rigger* didn't even bother with that skill, and I can't see a non-rigger character ever wanting to take it. If I were GMing, I would insist that you take a skill you at least might want to take in the future, though obviously I'm not and as I said, it does fall within the letter of the law.

Perhaps he's been away from DocWagon too long and his skills have atrophied.

If Dudu's like me, though, he was simply thinking more about what he wanted to do in-game versus what skills would justify his background. It's an easy trap to fall into and not even be aware of it. =(