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stevebugge
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 21 2006, 12:44 PM)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 21 2006, 03:30 PM)
The definition of predator that you disagree with isn't the modern definition, it's the ancient latin definition.

No, actually, it isn't—"praedator" has a very specific meaning, "one who pillages". As a result, the usage as "one who takes goods by force" is historic—the usage for any other variety of criminal, whether they be in for rape, murder, or just plain 'ol revenge beatings, is not.

As for "hacker", I object to the misuse of it for "computer-related criminal".

~J

Even more off topic than this thread already is......

There are some funny "predator" jokes at http://www.alienlovespredator.com
James McMurray
Nice comparison hyz, but not really appropriate, since hacker can equate to criminal but murderer doesn't equate to human. smile.gif
hyzmarca
Could you point out which real jurisdictions have convicted nonhumans for the crime of murder? biggrin.gif

QUOTE (stevebugge)
There are some funny "predator" jokes at http://www.alienlovespredator.com


Great. Now well have a debate over the use of the words Predator and Yautja

'Predator' is a derogatory racial epithet.

The name 'Yautja' doesn't appear in any of the movies.

The comics are canon.

Are Not.

Are too unless the movies contradict them.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Eddie Furious)
Mind if I ask what kind?

3rd Gen Glock 23 (their .40 S&W compact) with Tritium sights. I'm pretty happy with the piece straight out of the box, so the sights are the only aftermarket mods.
James McMurray
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Could you point out which real jurisdictions have convicted nonhumans for the crime of murder? biggrin.gif

No need. The actual definition nowhere mentions humans as the only possible perpetrators. That it has yet to be applied to aliens, androids, or superintelligent dogmen only means those situations have not come up yet.

The man named James McMurray who lives at my address and has my social security number has never been convicted of murder. Lack of prior examples does not preclude future occurrences.

I'm sure that as soon as alien murder does come up there will be all sorts of controversy surrounding it (primarily to distract the populace from real problems). smile.gif
ShadowDragon8685
I think in the middle of this stastic soup, there is only one thing I can be sure of.

I have a much higher chance of placing my fate in my own hands if I have the means to effectively defend myself than if not. And that's enough for me. It's better to bring a gun to a gunfigth than to bring pacifism to a gunfight.
James McMurray
Not if the other guy in the gunfight outclasses you, but won't draw first because he wants to keep things legal and avoid jail or the gallows.
ShadowDragon8685
If he's robbing me, chances are he dosen't care about the legality of the situation.

And the stastics all strongly disagree on his ability to outclass me, since it seems likely the only range time he gets is when he's in the middle of shooting at someone who's resisting.


And anyway, dieing in a gunfight with a criminal who was going to take your life anyway is better than a dog's death.
James McMurray
I'm not talking about being robbed. I'm talking about a gunfight, old west style. I prbably should have put a smiley in there.
ShadowDragon8685
Well, that's easy then.

Don't get into a wild-west style confrontation. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 21 2006, 09:30 PM)
If he's robbing me, chances are he dosen't care about the legality of the situation.

Not to speak for the rationality of petty criminals, but it is indeed quite possible to care about the legalities of the situation whilst robbing someone—aggravated assault and the chain above it (aggravated battery, mayhem, attempted murder) generally result in significantly harsher sentencing than simple assault and simple battery, even when robbery is involved.

~J
Kyrn
Most laws are written to be as all encompassing as possible. Many contracts are written to be applicable throughout this universe and all others. That's right, all other universe. Lawyers wouldn't bat an eye at using their wiles against aliens, intelligent superdogs, or stupid slightly less than above average molluskmen. Executors of the estates of wealthy cats have been sued.
Eddie Furious
QUOTE (Shrike30)
QUOTE (Eddie Furious @ Jun 21 2006, 12:34 PM)
Mind if I ask what kind?

3rd Gen Glock 23 (their .40 S&W compact) with Tritium sights. I'm pretty happy with the piece straight out of the box, so the sights are the only aftermarket mods.

Not too shabby. I notice you didn't mention compensators in the type or description, you would like your nightvision intact during a low light confrontation, I take it? wink.gif

How are the tritium sights working out? Used them in any "after dark" practice yet?
Shrike30
I considered a -C for a while, but decided that .40 + short barrel + venting was going to make far too much of a fireball on the top of the gun. The G23 has some flip to it, but it's pretty manageable.

Haven't had an opportunity to try the sights out in low/no light yet, beyond "turn off the lights and do sight picture practice" (for which they absolutely rock... try it out if you ever get the chance, it'll make you wonder why they don't come standard on guns). For obvious reasons, most ranges prefer you to keep the lights on. There's a course offered through a local institution that does night firing in addition to a number of other situations that I'm planning on taking when I have the time.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Well, that's easy then.

Don't get into a wild-west style confrontation. smile.gif

Most wild-west style confrontations were backshots (unless you are strictly talking movies here)
James McMurray
Yeah, just movies. Few (if any) gunfights involved people standing at 10 paces and the faster guy drawing after the slower guy starts.
ShadowDragon8685
"If he shot him in the eye, he was excercizing good marksmanship. If he shot 'em in the back of the head, he was excercizing good judgement."
Eddie Furious
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 22 2006, 12:06 PM)
I considered a -C for a while, but decided that .40 + short barrel + venting was going to make far too much of a fireball on the top of the gun.  The G23 has some flip to it, but it's pretty manageable.

Haven't had an opportunity to try the sights out in low/no light yet, beyond "turn off the lights and do sight picture practice" (for which they absolutely rock... try it out if you ever get the chance, it'll make you wonder why they don't come standard on guns).  For obvious reasons, most ranges prefer you to keep the lights on.  There's a course offered through a local institution that does night firing in addition to a number of other situations that I'm planning on taking when I have the time.

I would really recommend it. The difference is vast and is really an eye-opener. I am thinking of picking up an M1911-type, possibly a Sig GSR Nitron Carry or a Wilson Combat Professional.

Night sites make all the difference in the dark, don't they?
Shrike30
Being able to use your sights AT ALL in the dark makes a huge difference nyahnyah.gif

While I like the 1911 as a range piece, the thought of carrying one as a defensive piece is a little iffy with me. The basic design is about a century old, and frankly, we've made advancements since then. You can get fine-tuned 1911s that are as reliable as something like a Glock or a well-maintained H&K is out of the box, but that extra work that's required to do that was always a bit of a turn-off for me. So much of shooting is personal, though... if you can shoot well with it and it's tuned to the point of rock-solid reliability, it's probably the ideal piece.

What're carry laws like in Calgary? I was under the impression it got difficult north of the border...
Ivanhoe
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Nice comparison hyz, but not really appropriate, since hacker can equate to criminal but murderer doesn't equate to human. smile.gif

You may be mistaken. He obviously used the latin definition of "hacker", "haeckerus", meaning "drop bear"
Brahm
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 23 2006, 04:51 AM)
What're carry laws like in Calgary?  I was under the impression it got difficult north of the border...

Extremely difficult. For general public, after a background check, you can keep them at your residence. Transporting them to-from designated shooting ranges must be made by most direct, reasonable route (where you can also store them). I believe you have to notify of the transport too in some way, but I've never owned one so I'm a bit fuzzy on that. At home they must be locked in a safe of some sort when unattended. Unrestricted longarms (sporting shotguns, rifles) just need to have a trigger lock when unattended.

Generally it involves a career change to be able to carry around a handgun in daily activities.
James McMurray
Drop bear can equate to criminal, especially if that drop bear commits murder. wink.gif
hyzmarca
But no criminal court in the world asserts jurisdiction over drop bears. If no court will try them then they cannot be criminals.
nezumi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
But no criminal court in the world asserts jurisdiction over drop bears. If no court will try them then they cannot be criminals.

Drop bears can be taken to court. They just have to be taken to a high court.

(hahaha!)
stevebugge
QUOTE (nezumi)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 23 2006, 11:05 AM)
But no criminal court in the world asserts jurisdiction over drop bears. If no court will try them then they cannot be criminals.

Drop bears can be taken to court. They just have to be taken to a high court.

(hahaha!)

And I wouldn't recommend standing below that court.
Platinum
Drop bears are judged and executed by this man . If you have a drop bear problem, he can fix it.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Brahm)
... Generally it involves a career change to be able to carry around a handgun in daily activities.

That's pretty harsh. For all of my mixed opinions about living with the government I've got, I guess this is one thing I should be happy with.
hyzmarca
Its only illegal if you get caught and you'll only get caught if they find evidence linking you to the body of the police officer who really shouldn't have pulled you over.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Its only illegal if you get caught and you'll only get caught if they find evidence linking you to the body of the police officer who really shouldn't have pulled you over.

That's your inner Shadowrunner talking. Try not to get too caught up in Method Acting when there's real Police.

Remember, they're not the corrupt 'Star, they're honest guys and gals trying to enforce peace and order.

Unless it's an asshole named Tenpenny. In which case, open fire.
James McMurray
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
But no criminal court in the world asserts jurisdiction over drop bears. If no court will try them then they cannot be criminals.

How many drop bears have you tried to bring up on charges?
Brahm
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 23 2006, 03:33 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Jun 23 2006, 06:22 AM)
... Generally it involves a career change to be able to carry around a handgun in daily activities.

That's pretty harsh. For all of my mixed opinions about living with the government I've got, I guess this is one thing I should be happy with.

I don't really personally have a problem with it for a few reasons:
1) firearms of a minimum length, generally 26" overall and 18" barrels, are fairly easy to be aproved for, requiring only a $60 for 5 year certificate for the owner and, as of recently, free registration of the weapons; the $60 fee is also waived for people that can demonstrate a need for work which is leanent enough I could even get it if I felt like it and I haven't owned a gun in many years
2) society fulfills it's side of the "deal" by being safe enough that I feel no real need or even desire to carry a handgun; maybe only criminals, and the police, are carrying around handguns but the few that are and the rare times they are used it is usually against other criminals and occationally the police
3) people are stupid, and i'm more than happy to see the vast majority of them without firearms smile.gif

For more legal info here a site you can check out. http://panda.com/canadaguns/
hyzmarca
You see, this is why the whole US/Canada merger may not be a bad idea. With luck we can get permissive gun laws and socialized health care. Of course, that could end up with highly restrictive gun laws and health care so expensive that people sell their kidney's to back-alley chop-shops in exchange for gout medicine; that would be bad.
Brahm
QUOTE
With luck we can get permissive gun laws and socialized health care.


I really can't see that being a spectacularly good combination either. I'll end up paying for patching up a bunch of gunshot wounds? nyahnyah.gif Not that that doesn't sometimes happen in the US and here already. frown.gif

Incidentally a lot of the stuff at the start of that web page I find a bit dubious in it's presentation and intepretaton of "fact", and it doesn't help explain some things that at first leave you really scratching your head as to how exactly a particular situation could be arrived at. Understandable since he likely lacks some of the required background.

I just linked the page for it's quick summary of firearms laws from the perspective of what is different from the US.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Brahm @ Jun 23 2006, 11:12 PM)
QUOTE
With luck we can get permissive gun laws and socialized health care.


I really can't see that being a spectacularly good combination either. I'll end up paying for patching up a bunch of gunshot wounds? nyahnyah.gif Not that that doesn't sometimes happen in the US and here already. frown.gif

Actually, according to statistics posted earlier that isn't true. Guns are far less dangerous than generic blunt objects, apparently.

Now that I think about it I can't help but wonder how he keeps running into Customs anways. The US/Canadian boarder is huge. It should be realitivly easy to avoid them.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Remember, they're not the corrupt 'Star, they're honest guys and gals trying to enforce peace and order.

That's not only bullshit, it's doubly bullshit when you're talking traffic cops.

~J
Crusher Bob
We;;, according to these doctors the most dangerous activites in America are to 'stand on the corner and mind your own business' followed closely by 'sit on the porch and read the bible'.

Should you find yourself considering either of these two courses of action, go and do something safer, like play in traffic.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 23 2006, 04:31 PM)
Remember, they're not the corrupt 'Star, they're honest guys and gals trying to enforce peace and order.

That's not only bullshit, it's doubly bullshit when you're talking traffic cops.

~J

Nothing like a little prejudice to get the day started, eh Kage?
Brahm
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 24 2006, 12:04 AM)
Actually, according to statistics posted earlier that isn't true. Guns are far less dangerous than generic blunt objects, apparently.

I'm going to pass on heading into that whole quagmire, thanks. smile.gif

QUOTE
Now that I think about it I can't help but wonder how he keeps running into Customs anways. The US/Canadian coarder is huge. It should be realitivly easy to avoid them.


He lives on the west side of the continent. Over here you generally have to go seriously offroad/on foot, to avoid the manned border crossings. Some of the crossings aren't, or at least some time back weren't, manned 24 hours/day and you are just expected drive to the nearest law enforcement office across the border and report in. That may no longer be the case, that's going back a number of years now.

In the BC interior, which would mean crossing into either Idaho or eastern Washington, I think it was last year a guy got busted for pot smuggling who had apparently been making runs for some time using a snowmoblie. So the huge gapping holes in the border are there, you just can't really do it on roads, pretty much need to know the area, and if you keep doing it you'll eventually get caught.

When you get to Ontario and east you get into a lot more unmanned crossings, though they do have video cameras up roadside that could theoretically see you coming across. Once again I don't know exactly what the state of this is over the last 5 years. I do know that there are still people that live in one country but to leave their property to get anywhere on roads have to cross the boarder to the other country, and of course usually then come back to do whatever it is their trip was for. It is sort of an issue because, as you might guess, these roads usually didn't have a manned crossing facility set up because they see little-to-no traffic otherwise.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Nothing like a little prejudice to get the day started, eh Kage?

Yep, like the prejudice of assuming that everyone in a certain line of work is a saint.

As for traffic cops, no prejudice there: their job is quite clear, to generate revenue for the city. Fines are one of the worst practices in the history of law enforcement.

~J
James McMurray
QUOTE
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 24 2006, 02:58 AM)
Nothing like a little prejudice to get the day started, eh Kage?

Yep, like the prejudice of assuming that everyone in a certain line of work is a saint.


Yep. His error doesn't forgive or even explain yours.

QUOTE
As for traffic cops, no prejudice there: their job is quite clear, to generate revenue for the city. Fines are one of the worst practices in the history of law enforcement.


Sez you. I like having a well funded police force, even if it means my lead foot costs me some money every now and then. Obviously you're free to disagree (which I'm sure you will, albeit not as longwindedly as most here, since your rebuttals are generally short and to the point wink.gif ).
Squinky
Peoples opinions on Police forces are always awesome. I used to be a Deputy until about a year or so ago. I remember right when I first got the gig I suddenly started to realize that all the action movies/shows I watch had dudes dressed up like me getting their asses shot all the time. Freaked me out to see it from a new perspective, and when I run Shadowrun I have a hard time having cops be bullet fodder.

In real life, people seem to always complain about cops being corrupt, or unprofessional and generally don't like them. But on primetime tv, crime dramas reign supreme, and they are almost always full of cops who break the rules, or are unproffesional, I've never understood that.

I also used to get complaints from people that there were too many police units around, that the local government was wasting its money on them. The same people seemed to be the ones who complained that they had to wait five minutes for a police response for their accident/critical incedent when they lived on the other side of the county.

So pretty much, people are wacky. I personally dislike people having authority over me, and I can see where a lot of folks are coming from. A lot of cops become cynical and hard to deal with, and thats really why I quit the gig, I got tired of fighting with all the Egos. But it's not right to judge a persons character because of their job.
Brahm
The Calgary police chief went on a political headhunt when city council made a change to the police budget that included a specificied increase in traffic tickets with a roughly corrosponding decrease in money coming from the city's general coffers. It was more than an understatement to say he was miffed that traffic violations tickets were blatantly being seen as a revenue source, and that the number of tickets were fiscal . Even though some council members tried to sell it as an "increase to roadway safety" issue.

I believe it was actually changed. Which didn't even really matter because the police chief had already said he was going to ignore the ticket increase mandadated by, effectively, his bosses and just do something else to make the budget work out.

So I think, at least here, we are at least a little bit short of financial budget over safety as the primary motivation.
James McMurray
Not all cops are corrupt and not all cops are honest. It's like every other profession under the sun. People are different, no matter what job they're in. It wouldn't surprise me if police forces had more fringe individuals though. In other words more idealistic do gooders and opportunistic corrupt people than a lot of other professions, simply because fo the nature of the job in having power over others.

Recently Dallas had a bunch of firings for cops that were abusing their power. One instance was a cop who got into an off duty altercation with someone at a bar and then arrested the guy the next day for trumped up charges. Unfortunately for him (but not for us) the guy he arrested had a mom or a girlfriend that worked for the city and sent the story up the chain. Haha on him. smile.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 24 2006, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE
As for traffic cops, no prejudice there: their job is quite clear, to generate revenue for the city. Fines are one of the worst practices in the history of law enforcement.


Sez you. I like having a well funded police force, even if it means my lead foot costs me some money every now and then.

The problem there is that relying on tickets for funding means that officers can't rely on people to speed. They have to make stuff up to fulfill their quotas. Most people won't contest a ticket even if it is completely flase because they don't feel that it is worth the hassle.

QUOTE (Squinky)
In real life, people seem to always complain about cops being corrupt, or unprofessional and generally don't like them. But on primetime tv, crime dramas reign supreme, and they are almost always full of cops who break the rules, or are unproffesional, I've never understood that.


There are two types of corrupt. There is good corrupt and there is bad corrupt. Bad corrupt cops shake down people for protection money and execute civil rights workers. Good corrupt cops break the rules to protect the 'good guys' from dangerous violent thugs and South African dipolomats who place bombs under toilet seats. They look the other way when otherwise good people break the law for protection or revenge and they always win in the end. Unfortuantly, good corrupt cops are rather rare in the real world.
James McMurray
QUOTE
The problem there is that relying on tickets for funding means that officers can't rely on people to speed. They have to make stuff up to fulfill their quotas. Most people won't contest a ticket even if it is completely flase because they don't feel that it is worth the hassle.


Maybe it's just me, but I see hundreds of people breaking various traffic laws every week just going back and forth from home to work (including myself). Add in other trips and the number probably doubles.

I'm not saying that making up offences isn't done, but I don't think it's done out of necessity. More likely IMO is that it's being done by cops that are too lazy to do the work of waiting around for real offenders. If you're supposed to give 8 tickets that day and you give 3 real and 7 fake in the first hour of the day you can goof off the rest of the day, while still looking like you've done more than your fair share.

Of course, then you get into the issue of whether quotas are good or not, but that's a whole nuther ball of wax.

QUOTE
In real life, people seem to always complain about cops being corrupt, or unprofessional and generally don't like them. But on primetime tv, crime dramas reign supreme, and they are almost always full of cops who break the rules, or are unproffesional, I've never understood that.


Corruption (the bad kind to use hyz's differentiation) is fun and exciting. Watching some punk get smacked around by Sipowitz to get a confession is entertaining. Watching Vic Macke use his influence and street intel to rob an Armenian money laundering operation, or hold a child rapist's face to a stove burner is an amusing way to spend an hour on a Tuesday evening. Getting hassled by a butthead cop who gives you a ticket for something you didn't do is neither fun nor entertaining.

There are a lot of things that sell big on TV and in moveies that we don't actually want happening in our normal lives. Huge numbers of people went to see Saving Private Ryan. I'm pretty sure a microscopic portion of those would actually want to take part in the horror that was the real life storming of the beaches.
Shrike30
Thanks for the site link, Brahm, that's useful information.

QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Jun 23 2006, 10:44 PM)
We;;, according to these doctors the most dangerous activites in America are to 'stand on the corner and mind your own business' followed closely by 'sit on the porch and read the bible'.

My sister's an MD at San Fran General. Reportedly, one of the things you'll see listed on a patient's medical history goes something like this:

"Patient was sitting in expensive car in bad neighborhood MMOB when an unidentified man shot him in the abdomen, then ran away. Blood tests positive for drug usage."

Minding My Own Business has actually become an abbreviation, it's used so frequently. Nothing like cruising for drugs and getting shot by your dealer.

She also reports that the bus drivers in San Fran are bad enough that she'll see HBMB (Hit By Muni Bus) on histories every once in a while.
SirKodiak
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Maybe it's just me, but I see hundreds of people breaking various traffic laws every week just going back and forth from home to work (including myself). Add in other trips and the number probably doubles.

Part of the problem with this is that a lot of these go away when people see a police car. Speeding takes place over a significant period of time and happens along long stretches of road. It's fairly easy to sit somewhere out of sight and wait for someone to drive by over the speed limit. It's harder to catch someone failing to signal and such.

Now, the traffic law I'd like to see enforced more aggressively, particularly because it's a safety issue in the same way speeding is, is failure to put on headlights in the rain, when wipers are necessary. This is illegal in a number of states, include the one in which I live, and people who don't put on their lights can be a real hazard as they are much harder to see.
Frag-o Delux
Id preferre they out law using cell phones in moving vehicles. For almost 10 years driving has been a large portion of my career. I cant count anymore the amount of times I have almost been run into by people on cell phones, or almost running into someone because of their erradic driving behavior because they are on the phone.

If its raining so hard I cant see a car on the road without its head lights on, maybe I should pull over because pedestrians dont have headlights, nether do storm created obstructions such as fallen trees or lawn furniture.
Brahm
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jun 25 2006, 12:13 AM)
If its raining so hard I cant see a car on the road without its head lights on, maybe I should pull over because pedestrians dont have headlights, nether do storm created obstructions such as fallen trees or lawn furniture.

Trees don't move, not even fallen ones. It is about noticing the other vehicles quickly and easily, and headlights are a huge factor in that. That is why motorcycle headlights are always full on, and have been this way for decades. Not noticing a motorcycle is a huge part of avoiding running into them, and they found that headlights greatly reduced the problem of motorcycles magically coming out of "nowhere".
Frag-o Delux
Eh, they say the same for cars, thats why a lot of newer vehicles and most fleet owned vehicles have full time headlights. And I believe a lot of car insurance companies give discounts on insurance premiums as a added saftey feature if you have them. I just find it silly that rain has a magical factor in the situation. I have only been in one rain storm in the 13 years I have been driving that I couldnt see, so I pulled over. The headlights only reflected back and made it worse like it does in fog. I mean a light misting is enough to turn your windshield wipers on, so I should have my headlights on? The rain being kicked up by the tires of traffic after the storm are enough to cause you to turn your wipers on, so I should have my headlights on?

Sorry, im just in a arguementitive mood right now. smile.gif
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