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PBTHHHHT
Some pictures from the UK knife amnesty

Look at picture #2, they turned that in, dang...
Platinum
yay, a rambo knife and a dull blade. when they start turning in wakasashis and machettes call me.
John Campbell
Bah. That's not a knife. This is a knife.
Butterblume
That I would call a shortsword biggrin.gif.
Ancient History
That's a Gurkha knife, also called a kukri.
[/edit] The dull blade in the original link, that is.
Eddie Furious
Heh, I find it funny that they decided a few of those knives were "terrifying". If anything the only person who would get hurt would be the bloke trying to pack the damned thing in their trou. eek.gif

I also find it interesting that they showed an expended LAAWS Rocket and said it could shoot 350m. It can't shoot any farther than you can throw it in that state!
Eddie Furious
QUOTE (Ancient History)
That's a Gurkha knife, also called a kukri.
[/edit] The dull blade in the original link, that is.

Yes, I still have my issue khukri. Well, my second one. I lost my first one crossing a river.
Lazerface
Pic #4 is now saved on my hard drive in the "examples of blood magic ritual daggers" folder.
Muzzaro
The punch blade (the one listed as "terrifying" on pic 4) is near enough useless. I've seen many stuff like that at our local Cash Converters, all this gothic "knife" stuff that looks so scary, and is pointless. I'd rather buy the fairies they sell. Some of them are cute.

*coughs* anyway.
Lazerface
That's why it's a "ritual". You've got a live body that's tied down. How the hell are ya gonna miss?

"Dammit, Bob, I critical glitched and sacrificed myself."
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Eddie Furious)
I also find it interesting that they showed an expended LAAWS Rocket and said it could shoot 350m. It can't shoot any farther than you can throw it in that state!

Aye, dunno what they're thinking. Plus, knife amnesty, expended rocket tube, the heck?
hyzmarca
This does pose an important question. What did they expend it on?
PBTHHHHT
Either it's military surplus or they used it on some hit. I remember reading a few years ago some biker gang battles in some scandinavian country and one of the biker places got hit with a rocket launcher. It's been years, lemme see if I can find that news article. Had me thinking those biker gangs are really going hardcore. I don't think the mob even use rocket launchers in their fights, but what do I know...
hobgoblin
most likely someone took it with them when leaving the army.

alltho i dont live in the UK, i live in another european contry, and i recall holding one of those that someone had from their days in uniform.

that they turned it in must be some kind of joke. but that its presented as a deadly weapon is a pure propaganda move.

and about that "klingon" dagger. sure its just for show, but someone will still probably try to use it, and if can in theory produce some nasty wounds with all those edges nyahnyah.gif

nah, who am i kidding. those things are sold in novely shops around there...
plus matching polearms and lot of other stuff...
ShadowDragon8685
..... Good grief. What are people thinking?

First guns, now knives? What's next, "Club amnesty?" You'll have blokes turning in their sporting goods!

This god-damnned bleeding-heart "guns are bad" liberal shit needs to fucking die in flames! This is FAR BEYOND reasonable measures for public safety when ornamental LETTER OPENERS are being turned in as dangerous weapons!
nezumi
We should start shooting liberals more.

Oh, I know!! What about Liberal Amnesty! You can turn your liberal in for cash! Libertarians aren't really dangerous, but we'll accept them too.
Muzzaro
ShadowDragon, i disagree. A novelty letter opener will slide in real nice between the ribs, just as easily as if it was a knife. I'd rather people open letters with their fingers, than go outside tomorrow and get some kid stick me through chest with a purdy paper-knife.

I live in Wolverhampton, England, in an area full of Chavs. I'm afraid to go out at night! There is an increase in knife related attacks too, and some of them are stupid. People getting killed for saying "hello", bouncers getting attacked for doing their job. One guy got stabbed while holding his child in his arms and the assaulter just walked off going "I did him, i did him good". Some people out there are total and utter psychos, to the point where you have to be paranoid to survive. I swear, if i knew how to get them over here, i'd carry a freaking stun-gun. I'd rather end up in court, than be laid down in a wooden box.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Muzzaro)
ShadowDragon, i disagree. A novelty letter opener will slide in real nice between the ribs, just as easily as if it was a knife. I'd rather people open letters with their fingers, than go outside tomorrow and get some kid stick me through chest with a purdy paper-knife.

I live in Wolverhampton, England, in an area full of Chavs. I'm afraid to go out at night! There is an increase in knife related attacks too, and some of them are stupid. People getting killed for saying "hello", bouncers getting attacked for doing their job. One guy got stabbed while holding his child in his arms and the assaulter just walked off going "I did him, i did him good". Some people out there are total and utter psychos, to the point where you have to be paranoid to survive. I swear, if i knew how to get them over here, i'd carry a freaking stun-gun. I'd rather end up in court, than be laid down in a wooden box.

Nezumi: Just right.

Muzzaro, if the UK had remembered that they were the guys who started the "A man's home is his castle" thing and not gone all crazy, you'd be fine.

Moron thugs like that can't get their hands on a legal firearm, and the ones that want illeagal ones can get them whether it's legal or not. You, on the other hand, as a law-abiding and upstanding citizen, should have the right to defend yourself with an effective firearm.


Oh well. Guess people are all going to have to start eating out as the only ones allowed to own cooking knives are people with chef's liscences, and transporting a block of knives will become a felony soon. Meanwhile, I'll continue to happily shoot my uncle's WWII-era Garand at the range, for fun and enjoyment, and rest safe at night in the knowledge that if one or more of the local hoodlums (and there's a fair few in my town,) decide to mess with me, I have a 12-gauge shotgun close at hand.
Austere Emancipator
There goes the neighborh... err... thread.

About the LAW: It's not like an expended LAW is a weapon at all, so I don't see why you'd need some kind of amnesty for turning it in. Though it might have originally come into that person's possession through less-than-legal means...

About the silly knives (#4, #6): They sell that crap all over the place these days. Cracks me up seeing them in RPG Con stalls stacked next to serious replica swords.

About John Campbell's seax: Does this one count too?
hyzmarca
The outlawing of knives in the UK has nothing to do with public safety. Its just a way for the secret international vegaterian-vegan cabal conspiricy to piss on us meat eaters. Without knives there is no way for us to cut our steaks.

Of ocurse, some don't carry knifes for self defense. Some people carry knives in case they have to cut thing. You'd be surpriszed how often that need actually comes up in a day. There are boxes and tightly sealed plastic packging. There are ropes and cords. There are the seatbelts of trafic accident victims who are about to be englfed in flames due to an ignited fuel leak.
Ancient History
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Without knives there is no way for us to cut our steaks.

Real men rip the meat off the bone with their teeth. When the teeth go, we dissolve the steaks in coca cola and slurp it with a straw.
ShadowDragon8685
Someone else likes the Mythbusters, eh?
Ancient History
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Someone else likes the Mythbusters, eh?

I'm just saving up for a digestive expansion.
ShadowDragon8685
Not even a digestive expansion could get me to eat coca-cola raw steak...
knasser
QUOTE (Muzzaro)
I live in Wolverhampton, England, in an area full of Chavs. I'm afraid to go out at night! There is an increase in knife related attacks too, and some of them are stupid. People getting killed for saying "hello", bouncers getting attacked for doing their job. One guy got stabbed while holding his child in his arms and the assaulter just walked off going "I did him, i did him good". Some people out there are total and utter psychos, to the point where you have to be paranoid to survive. I swear, if i knew how to get them over here, i'd carry a freaking stun-gun. I'd rather end up in court, than be laid down in a wooden box.


Another Brit, here. Nottingham (St. Anne's to be precise) and reckon our area was the same situation as yours. I've moved since but in four years there I only ever got some minor trouble myself. It may be simply that I'm older, I don't know. Anyway, too many people had knives - some for defense and some for posturing. Stabbings were frequent by the rest of the county's standards but still rare in a way. There are psychos, I agree, but most people aren't and that includes most of the knife carriers who either want to look tough to their mates or be able to stand up for themselves when threatened. Most wouldn't use it unless pushed into it, and even then would probably not be trying to kill you. I'm not playing down the number of people who are hurt in knife attacks, but I'm trying to provide a little context.

A good friend got frightened when some people trapped him in a phone box (this was in a different city, btw). To me, it didn't sound too bad - just holding the door shut and a lot of banging and whooping, but then I'm fairly sure of myself and, more importantly I think, I recognise the difference between a bit of hassle and a genuine intent to harm. My friend was badly shaken and started carrying around a hammer in his jacket at night. Honestly, that's the worst response he could make. He would have carried a knife, I'm sure, but for whatever reason he considered a hammer to be the best weapon (probably some childhood movie association or something). In either case the principle was the same. I lived in dread of someone giving him some hassle and my friend, in his fear, pulling out the hammer. Aside from weakening his side considerably if he got picked up by the police, the likely response of anyone on having a weapon drawn on them would be to pound the shit out of him. He's just changed the whole scale of the confrontation. Maybe it's because I've been beaten up myself and have been through it and he came from a much more genteel background and its an unknown terror to him, but I'd say that his fear put him much greater danger than if he'd not given into it and made a decision not to carry.

The knife amnesty in the UK is a bit of a joke. I'm not saying it is a bad thing. It may reduce some of the numbers of knives on the street as it will encourage many of the half-hearted (and I mean this sincerely as a positive quality) to turn in their knives. But I strongly object to the stupid propaganda it is being used for. (For non-British, the campaign is being accompanied by frequent posters and gosh-wow press-releases). The pictures of these crappy star-trek knives accompanied by descriptions of "terrifying" are menat to appeal to the ill-informed Daily Mail types who are convinced that Engerland is being over-run by gay black people from Albania intent on raping our women. The purpose is three-fold. Firstly to make Tony Blair look good in his frequent spasms of media-whoring. Secondly, to keep middle-England good and scared so that they continue to give the police increased power. And thirdly, to convince people that homicide (of which we have by far the lowest rate in the recorded history of England and comparable to countries such as Sweden) is the great threat which we have to worry about rather than the fact that Rupert Murdoch's billion-pound turnover companies pay less than 1k tax per year in the UK and other such ways in which the British people actually do get screwed.

As you can tell if you've read through all that, I have quite strong feelings on this subject. I'm mostly of the opinion that you shouldn't carry weapons. If you do, the result is to make it much more likely that you'll get in a fight with such weapons. If you have a 50-50 chance of winning a knife fight and pulling a knife back on someone increases the chances of you getting into such a fight from 10% to 50% it's clear that not carrying a knife and attempting to keep the confrontation non-violent or knuckles only keeps you a lot safer.

More importantly, if you're carrying a knife it should be with the acknowledgement that there's a chance you might use it. I don't know if you, the reader, have ever beaten someone up or knocked someone out, but I have and I felt sick to my gut afterwards. I don't know how I would have felt if I had stabbed someone. Most of those who draw knives are young, often under eighteen. Could I live with myself if I had killed some sixteen year old? I'm not sure I could and I certainly intend to do everything I can to avoid finding out and that includes not carrying a knife.

-K.
mfb
so... any figures on the number of knives turned in by folks who actually make a regular habit of stabbing people?
Herald of Verjigorm
Somewhere between 0 and 3. (assuming some of them loot their victims)
Shrike30
QUOTE (knasser @ Jun 17 2006, 12:49 AM)
More importantly, if you're carrying a knife it should be with the acknowledgement that there's a chance you might use it. I don't know if you, the reader, have ever beaten someone up or knocked someone out, but I have and I felt sick to my gut afterwards. I don't know how I would have felt if I had stabbed someone. Most of those who draw knives are young, often under eighteen. Could I live with myself if I had killed some sixteen year old? I'm not sure I could and I certainly intend to do everything I can to avoid finding out and that includes not carrying a knife.

I look at it from the perspective of "could I live with myself if some sixteen-year-old killed me, or my girlfriend/brother/friend?" My carry gun isn't there because there's a "chance I might use it," it's there because there's a chance I might need to use it.

I understand that you'd have a hard time dealing with killing someone... I don't expect I'd have any easier of a time. But I've been in several fights in my life, and in the end felt justified in my actions in most of them. I don't pick fights, I just don't particularly feel like being on the recieving end of someone who's decided they're going to do me harm.

-------------

A few months ago, the bus I was riding on had to pull around a car blocking the bus lane in front of the stop to let people off, then back into traffic before it could keep going forwards. On my way past the car blocking the lane, I leaned over and said to the driver "Hey, man... you're in a bus lane." Simple as that. No sarcasm, no sneer or gesture, just a pointer in case he hadn't noticed the big stripe on the curb. I walked to the end of the block and headed uphill towards my apartment.

The driver of the car pulled out into traffic, pulled a u-turn somewhere, and caught up to me about two blocks away from where we'd first met. I heard a car braking hard in the road next to me, and turned to see the driver leaning out of his window, screaming "You got something you want to say to me?"

A little shocked, I blinked, and told him "I said, you were in a bus lane."

At which point the guy started to get out of the car.

Now, a number of things went through my head at this point. I reasoned that I might be able to outrun this guy, might be able to handle him in a fight, or might be able to talk my way out of the situation. It also occurred to me that if he was faster than I was, running wasn't a good option... if he was stronger, fighting him wasn't a good option... and if he was pissed off or mentally unbalanced (which seemed likely, as he was in the process of climbing out of his car having just come two blocks to scream at me), talking my way out of it wasn't a likely solution either. So, I had options, but none of them felt reliably good enough for my personal safety.

If he had a weapon, my odds for any of those solutions dropped enormously, since in that hypothetical, he'd be getting out of the car with it.

What kept me from having to find out was, of all things, the guy's mother (best guess based on family resemblance and having 25+ years on the guy) saying to him "Get Back In The Car." The driver looked back at her in the passenger seat, glared at me, climbed back into his car, shouted something unintelligible, and drove off.

-------------

Getting killed because I tried to do something vaguely positive for some guy with an attitude struck me as a phenomenally stupid way to die, and that's when I decided to start carrying a handgun. I acknowledge that there's a chance I might use it, because I carry it in case I need it. The gun is, and should always be, the last solution applied to a problem... but I don't particularly feel like finding myself facing the problem, and not having the solution at hand.

When it comes down to it, laws and the police are not finally responsible for your personal safety... you are. If someone puts a knife in your chest or hits you with his car for some reason, it's true that he's guilty of a crime; you're just guilty of failing to protect yourself from a threat. If the guy who killed me, or a loved one I was with, goes to jail, all it does is punish/rehabilitate him... it doesn't undo the death. I've got no intention of stopping living any time soon, and there didn't seem to be any good reason for me not to have the option of shooting the threat, if it came down to that.

Could I live with myself had I killed some 16 year old? If he was trying to kill me, I could probably use a little therapy afterwards... but getting stabbed to death by a 16 year old doesn't make you any less dead than if he was in his thirties.
ShadowDragon8685
Shrike, dude... You win a cookie, and a sigging.


He's right. You are responsible for protecting yourself. The police? Their job is to enforce the laws. I don't know about England, but in America the police have been time and time again absolved of any blame in failing to protect an innocent person from a predator.

While it is true, I would say, that every policeman would rather take a bullet or a knife than let you take it, that policeman may not be in range to take the knife or the shot for you. In fact, even in a densely packed urban zone with a lot of policemen, their response time may be up to ten minutes - time for a cruiser in the area to figure out which building or alley or street you're on, time for them to find somewhere to park, and time for them to thunder back from their parking spot to where you are.


Now, if someone's broken into your flat with no idea you're home and they're only out for your money, this is an acceptable response time. Even if they don't catch the perp red-handed, your insurance (you do have insurance, right?) will cover the loss if the police fail to recapture your stolen goods.

But what if he's out for your blood? What if he wants to rape and strangle your little sister, mmm? He's probably drunk or high or both or else MAJORLY unstable to decide to commit B&E followed by a little sexually-aggrevated A&B.

Are you 100% percent certain you could fight this guy off physically? If your name is Arnold Schwartzenneger, you probably could turn this guy into meat. Even if you don't spend as many hours at the gym as most wageslaves spend at their desks, you might be able to.

What if you're not home. Can your little sister acomplish the same feat, or are you going to come home to find the flat's door off the hinges, her cold body with blue lips laying on her bed in an obscene spread-eagled pose and the liquid evidence of the heinous act seeping from her vagina?

Could you live with that, safe and sound in that she didn't escalate the situation by drawing a knife to defend herself?

Now, what if he's got a knife? Hers or your chances drop dramatically. Even Arnold's muscles won't protect him against 6-8 inches of cold steel.


Simply put, you[/o], not the police, are in charge of your security. The rich and the famous? They don't have to be. They can hire bodyguards. They can also hire chaufers and chefs - most of us make do being our own chaufer and chef. We also have to be our own bodyguard.


Now to get back to a personal example. I was driving home one day from college, it was a bright, sunshining day, weather was beautiful. This is a small town, technically rural in nature. I decidedto take the back roads slow, singing loudly and off-key to my radio.

Some asshole in a big black ford pickup, despite the fact that I was only doing five under the legal speed-limit, decided to tailgate me. This was when I drove a tiny 1992 Chrystler Acclaim. (I've since graduated to a 1998 Dodge Durango XLT. It's the size of a pickup truck with an 8-cylander magnum engine to match. This thing has some serious horses going for it.) The dude eventually decided to squeal off behind me, burning out and tearing off down the road (speed limit 25, children often play on this road) at about 60.

I thought that was the end of it, so I continued to home, which was literally just up the street. Then to my shock, the dude rematerializes coming down my street, spinning his truck to block the intersection as I hit the brakes, and gets out of his truck, heading towards me. I panic - this is one big, 250 lb redneck motherfucker, and though I had him outweighed, I'm carrying fat, not muscle. I coudlen't see a weapon on him, but I had the sneaking suspicion there was a gun in that truck, and I'd have bet dollars to pesos he had a big ole' pocket knife.

I slam the car in reverse, squeal down half the street, and sideswipe someone else's car. Redneck Motherfucker decides to get the hell out of here when he sees me on my cell phone, calling the police, hysterical.

The police station is literally just up the street. I can [i]see
it. I'm on the phone, hysterically telling them that he came after me, and I'm literally just up the street, my car jammed on someone else's car, and I coulden't get it moving.

FORTUNATELY, Redneck Motherfucker decided to leave that day. But do you know how long it took for that police station to hemmorage uniformed officers of the law?

Ten Minutes. Ten mother-fucking minutes, and I was literally within walking distance. Five seconds at the speed a police cruiser with the hammer down. When they did get to their cars, they burned a path to me, it's true, sirens blazing, while I'm a gibbering wreck in my sedan's seat.

But the fact is that it took them ten minutes to respond to a potentially violent and deadly encounter involving autos and agression, that occured practically in the shadow of the police department itself.

That was the day I resolved that I was going to keep shooting with my uncle until I was confident and safe in it's proper use and maintenance and storage, and apply for a concealed carry permit as soon as I'm capable.

I won't depend on the police to protect me again. I won't wait for them to haul their asses out of wherever they were and burn rubber to get to me. I don't want to kill someone, not a 16-year old, not a 60-year-old, not a 32-pound power-tripping Redneck Motherfucker who's probably late for a date with his sister.

But if they want to do this kind of crazy thing, I will be ready to stop it. I won't be a helpless victim, and if at all possible, nobody around me will be either. A responsible, safe gun-owner who carries for self-defense is not just an asset to himself, he's an asset to everyone around him, both passively and actively. This is America, you never know who's carrying. Is that guy with the trimmed beard, white shirt and blue jeans packing a firearm? Is that black-skinned youth playing B-ball? That woman in heels and a bisuness suit, how sure are you that that bulge in her pocket is her cell phone and not her 9mm?

Even if none of them are armed, they could be, and that alone gives predators pause. And when they decide to risk it, it could be the white guy with the beard drawing his piece and telling him to back the hell off of the kid - it could be the black kid telling the mother-@^@*er to leave the lady alone, it could be the lady pulling her gun on the guy with the knife acosting the white guy.

My point is that you need not fear ten thousand armed people who responsibly carry and with a solemn duty use their weapons, be those weapons fists, clubs, spears, swords, bows, knives, or firearms. It's a tool, just like any else, and if he can hurt you with it, you can defend yourself with it.

These are the guys who tend to wind up losing their firearms and their decorative and cooking knives to these "Amnesty" and "guns for cash" programs. That hoodlum, that drug-dealer, that drunk redneck who likes to push around fat boys? He's never going to give up his gun or his knife, and he always knows how to get one, even if they find his old one and take it from him. All these programs do is disarm the people in the face of violence.


And before you say "My country is peaceful and has little armed violence, I have no need of a gun", I will ask if you are male. If you are, do you enjoy sex? If you do, do you carry a condom or two in your wallet, even when you don't anticipate sex? If you don't, what kind of irresponsible jackass are you? If you are, you understand that preperation is not paranoia, and having a condom in your walllet does not mean you're a rabbit, jumping everything female. Or maybe you are, in which case you're defniately prepared.

Carrying a gun does not make you paranoid, nor does it mean you're going to flip out and kill someone. They're fun to shoot at a target range, and there are gun sports such as competitive shooting or hunting that you can engage in, if you want to. Or you can just stick with range time and a determination not to be victimized.
knasser

EDIT: This was originally intended to respond to Shrike30's post. Shadowdragon sneaked in there before me, so when I say "you" in this post I'm meaning Shrike rather than her.

QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 17 2006, 07:24 AM)
When it comes down to it, laws and the police are not finally responsible for your personal safety... you are.


That I 100% agree with. All that I've said has been based on pragmatism. If someone threatens you, even with a weapon, then in my experience and based on psychology studies by (of all people) the US army, then they're not likely to actually follow through and try to murder you. But that 1 in 10 chance instantly becomes 50:50 if you pull a weapon on them. Probably more with a gun as the threat level to them has just increased even more than a with a knife. Now a knife or gun fight is such a very high-stakes game with such a random probability of success that best chance of survival lies absolutely in doing everything you can to avoid the game beginning in the first place.

Now your response to this will be that just because you have a gun or a knife, doesn't mean you have to pull it out or use it if you do. And you are correct. But you carry a gun for the same reason most other relatively sane people who carry guns do - fear. Understand that I don't know you, and I don't use this in a pejorative sense. Fear is a normal and sane emotion. Alternately, perhaps you prefer to say that you're not governed by fear but are purely pragmatic in which case accept that what I'm saying only applies to other people. I'm happy to agree to any level of common sense and courage on your part, but I will not accept that it applies to the majority of people. Fear can cause you to draw that weapon when you shouldn't. Even if were you completely logical, your judgement can still be gravely wrong.

At which point do you decide that your best chance is to draw a weapon? When you're initially threatened? This is the nightmare I had about my friend. Somebody would shove him and he'd panic and pull out his fucking hammer. He'd either fracture someone's skull or (more likely) get himself very badly hurt. In either case, he'd have escalated a minor situation. Carrying weapons leads to that sort of escalation - people are very jumpy. And while, as I mentioned, I am willing to accept that you are a creature of good judgement and brave enough to handle yourself well, I think the majority of people who carry a weapon for protection are frightened enough that they will make a bad situation very very much worse. I return to the example of my friend. I don't have the worst background in the world, but I was familiar enough with confrontation that I didn't see everything magnified out of proportion. I was able to live along a fairly rough area for four years and only had a situation turn physical once. I attribute that mainly to staying relaxed, talking and not fingering a gun or knife in my pocket during a confrontation. In the situation where it did turn physical, I got a bruised leg ( and the usual adrenalin poisioning wink.gif ) If I'd pulled a knife, or one had been found on me, I think at the least I'd have been left with some nasty scars.

So even if you don't panic, when do you make the decision to pull your weapon? When one is drawn on you? At this point, going for a weapon, especially if it is a gun that is drawn on you, is likely to make things worse. I'm not Billy the Kid. I can think of very few scenarios where having a weapon on me doesn't actually increase the likelyhood of me being seriously hurt.

In the example you gave, and I acknowledge that I'm basing this on what you've posted so far and not on any other details I'm not aware of about the situation. You got away with the heinous crime of criticising someone's driving (how dare you! wink.gif ) maybe because you didn't pull out a gun on this guy. If he had pulled one on you, would you have really been able to quick draw and shoot him? I'm fairly certain that you would have turned a possible intent to shoot you (though more likely just posture to establish dominance) into a definite attempt to shoot you. And that's the problem in a nutshell. Knives, and very much more so guns, give advantage to the aggressor. In carrying a weapon, I am entertaining the possibility of me being the aggressor, as I think are most if not all other people who would carry a weapon to protect themselves.

I hope all this is taken in the spirit which it is meant - I.e. a civil discussion and not intended to trivialise another's take on this. We've both brought in personal anecdotes, and I've used yours as the basis for discussing some of my argument. That doesn't mean I think the situation was any less bad. I've been in similar situations with similarly perspective-lacking people myself. It's not pleasant, it can leave you in a state of mild shock and you're probably to be commended for staying calm. I'm just outlying my beliefs based on my personal experiences and thinking on the matter.
ShadowDragon8685
Knasser, unfortunately you forget one very important thing.


Unless he's high (on drugs, or power), he isen't going to want to risk his neck any more than you do. The same applies.

He has a knife. He's ten paces from me. I have a knife. I pull my knife, after his is already pulled. Yes, I'm thinking "This bloke could stick me..." But he's also thinking "this bloke can stick me..." Unless he's willing to risk getting stuck in order to stick me, he's going to back down and say "whatever man" or maybe just run away, because he's a coward at heart. Otherwise he woulden't be mugging people with a knife.

Now if he pulls a knife, and I pull a gun, I'm thinkg "Okay... If he gets over here, he can stick me. But I can and will kill him before that happens." On the other hand, he is thinking "HOLY FUCK, THIS CRAZY CRACKER HAS A GUN!" and unless he's high on cocaine or something, he's going to run for his scrawny little life. Even if he has a gun, I have a gun.

And if you want to quote stastics, here's one for you. You are 70% more likely to survive an encounter with an armed thug, armed with knife or gun, with yourself and your belongings intact, if you resist with a firearm than if you do not.

You know who put that figure out? The United States Department of Justice.

The army figure you quote is pertinent to soldiers in a combat zone. If someone's trying to take you prisoner, chances are he dosen't want to shoot you once he has you prisoner. But if you go for your gun, he will fire, and so will you, and then it's down to who had the drop and the better skills.

Armed thugs on the street are not soldiers. At the end of the day, they want money, safety, and enjoyment. That's why they do what they do. He dosen't want to risk his life in a battle to the death. Because he's not willing to take that chance. He's a predator, and guess what most predators do when they find out their prey has fangs?

The run away and find easier prey.
ShadowDragon8685
Oh, and before you say it, if he has a gun leveled at you at close range, obviously you don't want to start shit. Unless you can duck behind a corner or something. He probably dosen't have the reflexes to hit you before you get behind cover unless he's literally a foot behind you, in which case you're already toast, just do what he says. But if you have any hope of ducking away for an instant (and you usually do,) or if you're smart and have your gun somewhere you can draw it where he won't see it (guess where most people keep their wallets? Their back pockets. Going for a small-of-the-back holster and your wallet looks much the same, especially if you're wearing a jacket and it' dark out.)

Once your gun is out and his is out, it's a Mexican Standoff. Neither of you really wants to shoot. He's probably going to run away. And even if he gets stupid, I'd rather take the chance on being a faster and better shot than he is than let him have his way with me.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
He's a predator

That's bullshit. If he was a predator he'd have killed and started eating you before you could have thought about pulling a gun.

~J, who abhors the misuse of the word "predator".
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 17 2006, 10:05 AM)
He's a predator

That's bullshit. If he was a predator he'd have killed and started eating you before you could have thought about pulling a gun.

~J, who abhors the misuse of the word "predator".

The word "Predator" dosen't only require the use of carnivorous cannibalism.

Economic predators are just as much predators as a lion - as are the ones that pull a knife and demand your fucking money. He's a predator, and he dosen't deserve my paper, he deserves a significantly heavier metal. My lead.
Ancient History
Bringing this back to shadowrun, muggings must be rarer now with the nigh-universal advent of electronic currencies. Alternatives would gain favor. I can just see it now "Your kidney or your life!"
ShadowDragon8685
Nah. People tend to carry comlinks. Those are expensive enough for professional Shadowrunners to scoop in the middle of the run, so they'd probably be the single most coveted item for muggers to target.
hyzmarca
I suspect that there will be a window of a few hours before the victim reports his credstick stolen and this information can be distributed throuout the worldwide finiancial network. If you're fast you can get away with a small spending spree and you can even feel good about it because the bank will take most of the damage.

With comlinks you can even have E-muggings. Force the guy to transmit his bank codes to you and empty his bank account online before letting him leave.

Heck, yesterday I saw a news article about electronic pickpocketing of Speedpass RFID tags. Just walk by someone with an RFID reader in your pocket. They'll have no clue untill they are presented with a $150,000 bill at the end of the month.
ShadowDragon8685
Hah! Nice one, Hyz. smile.gif

Guess that poor sod wound up having a whole lot of fun, eh?
hobgoblin
ah, weapon debates and dumpshock, allways a fun read silly.gif

personaly, im with knasser. you dont want to give the guy at the other end any reason for giving up the last bit of logic thats operating in his mind. the moment his life is on the line, he will go into instinct mode. thats either fight or flight, or some training to the level of reflex.

if someone wanted to rob me i would hand it over, my life isnt worth lost over money or similar.

as for some crazed lunatic breaking into my home and going hannibal on me and my family. likelyhood of that may increase as the size of the city increases, but i still find it compareable to being affraid of being hit by a bolt of lightning or being on a airplane that falls out of the sky...

but thats just me, and my view of the world. and as people here on the forum most likely allready know, its not much compareable to many others view. least of all those that are from the left side of the atlantic.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 17 2006, 02:29 PM)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 17 2006, 10:05 AM)
He's a predator

That's bullshit. If he was a predator he'd have killed and started eating you before you could have thought about pulling a gun.

~J, who abhors the misuse of the word "predator".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/predator

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/p/p0514700.html

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/predator (and then look at the second definition of prey's intransitive verb form, which for some reason gives a generic link instead of one that leads directly to it)

- James, who deplores people who assume that what they think a word means is all that it means smile.gif

Besides, even if he were predatory in that manner, there's nothing saying you wouldn't have spotted him and shot him long before he tried to eat you. Prey fights off, and sometimes kills, predators all the time. wink.gif
hobgoblin
thats why good predators are sneaky, very sneaky...
SL James
Especially the ones who can become invisible and kill you with a laser blaster.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (James McMurray)
- James, who deplores people who assume that what they think a word means is all that it means smile.gif

Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. As such, they may be wrong.

~J
ShadowDragon8685
Either way, Kage is assuming that I failed my perception check to notice a guy coming at me with a knife or a gun.

That's a big assumption. Not many of these guys are all that sneaky and a bag of potato chips. He's ten paces from me, I whip out my gun. If he makes ANY sudden moves towards me, I'm not going to hesitate.

Now of course, I'm not going to be fucking stupid if he DOES sneak up on me. Of course I'm going to give him my fucking wallet, I'm not suicidal.
knasser
EDIT: I THINK I'VE SAID EVERYTHING NECESSARY TO EXPLAIN MY POINT OF VIEW, SO I'M DONE WITH THIS TOPIC NOW. IF PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING, THEN I'M CONENT WITH THAT.


QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 18 2006, 05:41 AM)
He's ten paces from me, I whip out my gun. If he makes ANY sudden moves towards me, I'm not going to hesitate.


This is essentially what I'm talking about. Fear that turns a situation much worse.

QUOTE (Shadowdragon8685)

What if you're not home. Can your little sister acomplish the same feat, or are you going to come home to find the flat's door off the hinges, her cold body with blue lips laying on her bed in an obscene spread-eagled pose and the liquid evidence of the heinous act seeping from her vagina?


*Urgh* Living in this mindset puts you in danger and others in danger, I think.

QUOTE (Shadowdragon8685)
Either way, Kage is assuming that I failed my perception check to notice a guy coming at me with a knife or a gun.


If someone already has a gun on you, then trying to draw yours is almost certainly a bad idea. Which brings us back to my point - guns (and to a lesser extent knives) favour the aggressor. If you're getting an advantage from them, then you're the one who's threatening people.

Fear breeds violence which is one of the reasons I choose not to carry a weapon. Most people just want respect and knives are usually about posturing. If there's trouble then I'll try and defuse the situation. I'm far more skilled with my mouth than I am with a gun.

Wait a minute. Let me find a better way of putting that... embarrassed.gif
Crusher Bob
We'll be kind and just assume that you are one of the wierdos that went in for the oral gun cyberware, and are now packing heavy ordinance where you soft pallate used to be.

Don't worry, I can talk my way out of this one. <opens mouth> <BLAM!> See? worked like a charm. cyber.gif
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 17 2006, 05:56 PM)
- James, who deplores people who assume that what they think a word means is all that it means smile.gif

Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. As such, they may be wrong.

~J

I have never been mistaken as smart, but how can a dictionary be wrong? Its job is to give definitions on words. Usually the most accepted meaning of that word. I mean if I define the word Door as a device you can drive around and convince several people thats true it still doesnt mean the word door is now a term for the word car or automobile.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 17 2006, 05:56 PM)
- James, who deplores people who assume that what they think a word means is all that it means smile.gif

Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. As such, they may be wrong.

~J

Yes, they can be wrong.

However, barring minor mistakes (typo on a homonym, for instance), the error is more probably in completeness rather than correctness. They're more likely to not have every meaning of a word, then to have a definition that does not apply to that word listed for it.
Austere Emancipator
You could say a dictionary is "incorrect" when it only gives a definition/definitions that account(s) for a minority of the usage of that word. Dictionary definitions are also often technically wrong (see: clip vs. magazine) even when correct in that they describe common usage, in which case it isn't the dictionaries we should be mad at but the people who use the terms incorrectly. (And this seems to have been Kagetenshi's point in the first place.)
hobgoblin
but then language changes over time. just take a look at the word gay...

who is to say what the corret use of a word is?
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