(A text that I posted on RPG.net, a pet peeve of mine)

I don't know, but it seems often that game makers don't do much researches when making game materials... Not always in spite or ignorance, but it can be irritating.

Example, the Republic of Québec in Shadowrun. It's the Saint John the Baptist here, the national holyday, so it made me think of it.

Nice game, I always liked it's world (even if I never played yet, sadly). The fact that my homeland is independant and seemingly doing not too bad globaly is rather nice as a sovereignist.

But, there is some stupid, even offensive details...

The currency is the New FRANC?!? Like, if independant, we would turn to a local version of the old FRENCH currency?

Harsh pro-french laws? Someone have not read the Law 101 here. It PROMOTE french, it do not aim to crush english, english have special rights (and so the native languages). You won't be annoyed if you speak english with a friend...

Cross is cool, they got the names well (albeit an english surname, hum...).

They at least got the part with the good relations with natives (La Paix des Braves and all - we are not anti-natives, at all.).

But, refusing rights to anglo metahumans?

The Parti Québécois is NOT isolationist and conservative - it's center-left traditionaly.

In general, it feels like the writter(s) have done a short, rushed job, taking the PRE-Quiet Revolution Quebec, mixing it with the clichés and fear-mongering of a fringe in the english Canada.

I ask of you, writters - and not just for Quebec; MAKE GOOD RESEARCHES WHEN POSSIBLE. Please do not just take from the (often biaised) mass media. But do real researches on your subject.

Ah, "it's this way now, so it could never be like that." Great argument. By that logic, Shadowrun can't have magic or a segregated USA. Since it's easier to subvert an entire political party than to predict the future, none of your complaints really hold merit for talking about something 70+ years from an alternate 1980's.

I know, time change things, and often quite much. But you also have to remember that there is always a continuity, and the writter(s) there seemed to have been lazy or uninformed. I am a quebecker, I should know my people and homeland quite well.

And by example, the Quiet Revolution happened about 40 years ago. There is yet a continuity.

Now, it was not just for Shadowrun, but rpg in general. The old WoD had some... strange materials by example, I heard.

Welcome to brand new thing, same as the old...

Things change. For example, a good deal of what you're kvetching about is currently out-of-date as of Shadows of North America. Not all of it, certainly, but enough to show you haven't been keeping up. Doesn't work for your credibility.

Next up, things change. What is true today will not always be true tomorrow (but it may be true again the day after next). In today's world, the thought of an isolationist, anglo-hating Quebec might seem strange. Forty-odd years, UGE, Goblinization, two VITAS plagues, the Resource Rush, the Ghost Dance War, the Treaty of Denver, the Crash of '29, and various political sunderings later and things might be different. Ten or twenty years after that, things will be different still. C'est le vit.

Now, let's hit a really important dividing line: research vs. creativity. See, historical, geographical, and scientific details all require research. Postulations on the political and economic nature of a future country require research and creativity. Research might give you some insights on future trends, but after extrapolating for a bit creativity has to come into play.

Let's take the new franc for example. Have you done any research on new governments that issued new currencies with the same name as old currencies? Go ahead and browse through Wikipedia a bit. Your personal beliefs aside, given that at the time of the indepedence Québec was being run by francophiles and courting France, the possibility of naming their currency the new franc is at least probable.

On your personal credibility issue - this forum does have a spell check feature, y'know. It really doesn't lend strength to your arguement when chunks of it are flawed with bad spelling (as well as bad grammar, poor construction, and shouting).

30 years ago, Iran was a secular country, and a strong US ally. Today couldn't be farther away from it.

35 years ago, the MLN-Tupamaros were an urban guerrilla in Uruguay. Today, they're the biggest voting block in Parliament, and their leader raises vegetables in a small farm (he's also Minister of Agriculture, but I'm digressing).

50 years ago, southern conservatives were supporters of the US Democratic Party. Today, they mostly back the Republicans.

60 years ago, Europe was shattered and in ruins. Today... need I go on?

Things change, dude.

Look at SR's treatment of Texas if you want to see something that I as a Texan find pretty stupid. The general perception that Texas is filled with gun toting rednecks itching to secede is fairly popular in literature, not just shadowrun. IT's a pretty silly idea too, but it makes for an interesting story.

Moral of the story: don't get too concerned about how a work of fiction portrays your country, religion, philosophy, martial art, profession, etc. Otherwise you'll end up like thousands of Christians up in arms about a book that the author is more than happy to tell you is almost purely fiction.

Back in 91 when I first started playing SR we tried changing the game to fit the way we saw certain things. FASA sent a kick squad to our GM's house while we were playing. They kicked me in the head and pissed on my BBB. After some taunting they took our dice and told us we are now banned from playing SR because you have to use their source material with out change. Sadly the next year SR edition 2 was released and they added the rules we were debating. Its been hard not playing since that day, being banned from a game you liked. Fanpro is still looking at my appeal.

After that the GM feared all forms of creativity so now hes a public accountent, my brother got heavy into drugs and I kill hookers to have fun.

All kidding aside its just a game. I have chatted with some of the writers. They arent stupid, you may not like them or their opinions about where the SR world should be. But you know what, if their writting lets me play in Quebac without having to do real research then fine and it isnt completely out of character for the SR universe then even better. If its something I dont like or my group doesnt like, we change it. Its that simple, pretend the canon doesnt exsist and write what you like.

I also think the expanding of the SR universe and its fluff material is getting so thick certain things are getting lost in the translation or cut completely and new players havent read the older stuff. Those little time line things in the newer books are great and all, but having the full story is better. I mean do they even say what happened to Shaiwase to cause the extraterrorial ruling by the supreme court any more?

Metahumans have been getting the shaft since they goblinized or expressed, save those cute little elves. In the first edition books it was made very clear that ethnic race was almost 100% a non factor now. You of course still have hold overs from today, but a line in the first edition BBB made it pretty clear ethnic racism was over. Why be affraid of a black or yellow guy when the thing sitting next to you on the bus has a fist the size of your head? They even made it clear that urban centers that were once the realm of blacks and hispanics of low income were now the realm of orks and trolls. Making it appear ethnic races have banned togother to oppress the gentic races. The only reason they made native indians a ethnic race to be against is because of the ghost dance and all that. From what I read canada has had a much different relationship with their native indians then america did. So the native indians getting better treatment then anglo metahumans is pretty much in line with SR history and canadian history.

Bah! Canon-schmanon! Play the game you want to play. If that involves reading every sourcebook ever printed and weaving it all into a tale the designers would drool to turn into a sourcebook themselves then great. If it involves nothing but 80's ninja attacks every time you sneeze that's great too. I prefer something in the middle.

As a freelancer I'd like to add one important element which has been very much a deciding influence in the material the current batch of authors write. It's called "continuity", and unfortunately it's integral to any game with such a deep and convoluted background and metaplot as Shadowrun.

- It was not fun trying to explain the references to the nobility ruling in France (or their being fops in tights, renaissance jackets and feathered caps as one novel had it) littered through-out half a dozen older books, but I think the twist the authors of France chapter in SOE came up with is not only cool, but more importantly, it makes sense to a Frenchman.

- It was not fun picking up the UK ten years on from the London SB (which is very much a product of Eighties Thatcherian England) and weaving something interesting and new into the situation that would be cool to the current crowd—and that didn't invalidate three novels and a couple of sourcebooks doing so.

- It was not fun having to write describe how a third of your country is now underwater and another third has joined France (Holland).

- It was not fun to have to write your country trampled on by another Russian invasion and face Red occupation (again) but that's what the writers of Poland in SOE had to deal with because of canon.

- It was not fun for the authors of SoNA to deal with the tribal nations demographics and other weirdnesses from the old NAN books.

- It was not fun having to give the CAS a twist so it wasn't a nation of die-hard Confederate wannabees as portrayed in NAGNA.

- It was not fun setting up the Tir so it's actually a fun environment and less impossibly restrictive to play in that the Tir Tairngire book described.

- It was not fun making it believable that the chaotic and disjointed description of a crazy apocalyptic cult in Threats actually masked a threat truly capable of ending the world.

Rarely we actually have enough leeway to tweak, revise or eliminate an element of history and canon lore, but, by and large writers are obliged to make do with what they're handed and keep to published material (good or bad). The mark of a good writer is being able to twist that

Thats what Im saying. We play canon mostly. But we have made changes to certain areas we play in a lot. We also use a mix of rules. We play more of a SR edition 2.6. Its mostly 2, with the rules from 3 we like. Even then we have modified a lot of the edition 2 rules also. As far as the plausibility of the area books and their histories, I dont care. Its only a game. If the way your home is treated in a fictional work upsets you that much, you should re-evaluate your priorities. Because obiviously this game means way too much to you.

SR split from our world at around the 1990's...

divergent history writings is a growing field these days.
there are a lot of people out there that grap onto a moment in known history and take a sharp turn into the unknown from there...

"if factor x didnt happen as history recalls it, what then?"

what if operation market garden had worked, and the russian troops got to berlin last? would we still have a cold war? would we still have a divided germany? would maybe the war turn into a war between the russians and the rest of the fighting nations? and if so, would the atomic bombs be dropped on russian soil rather then japanese?

thats the funny thing about history, one small change can have large ramifications.

still, some of the early stuff of SR is over the top (and them im not even looking at the writeup for the german state). i think much of it was written based on "would it not be cool if"...

Because it seems the American army is the precursor to corporate military forces. America only fights and protects the middle east so the oil companies theoretically have a stable area/government to deal with in the pursuit of drilling for oil. America the country doesnt own these contries or companies. The companies like ExxonMobile and BP/Ammco make the deal with OPEC and all the oil producing countries for the oil drilling rights, not America. The Amercian governemt defends/over throws the governments that make these deals, we also make consessions for these deals with those countries.

Also with the merging of international companies, BP/Ammco for instence and the selling of assests, not to mention the final rise of alternate fuel sources, the need for oil should have greatly reduced. BP for those that dont know stands for British Petroleum. Which I would have to assume is still being ran by the Brits, I mean all the Ammco gas stations are now BPs, an American company would have bought BP and made all BPs Ammcos. And to be honest, would any American know where Iraq was if we didnt fight 2 wars there? And why did we fight 2 wars there? Oil. No oil, no war, no one cares what shit hole country is over there. The average American learns geography by who weve killed. We knew Afghanistan exsisted because of Rambo 3, but we didnt know where it was till shortly after 9/11. When I say we, I mean the average American citizen, I can find Afghanistan on a map and could for a long time now.

The only reason I'm responding to this "they screwed up my home town" thread is cause it's my home town too.

The only true mistake that was made with Quebec is that the importance of Montreal and Quebec City were mixed up by the first author who wrote about them, so now we're stuck with what's there.

Everything else is the PERFECT run down of the dystopian future that affects Shadowrun as a whole. You think it's "likely" Mexico is going to get a huge aztec revivalism thing and rename itself Aztlan and conquer Central and half of South America? No, it isn't. But it's fucking cool and it adds tons of flavour to the world.

For the 99% of Plyaers and GMs that know shit all about Quebec, or ANY of the locale write-ups, all they care about is the general flavour of the place and some cool plot hooks. You write up a section that's "oh but this" "oh but that" and you lose all flavour and you get shitty write up that no one is gonna use.

Plus, It's more than plausible the Quebec governement gets a fit of isolationism and a bit of old French flavour, considering where France went in SR anyway.

So quit your whining.

I do not want a good regime - I want just REALISM. And this need working, a good example of shoddy work, based on hastly done 'researches' and stereotypes.

Its simple to fix.

Ok, new Franc offensive, say goodbye, you now use the Peso.

Anglos, all anglos are now equal to French citizens, including the metas.

Rename Cross technology to Croix (french for Cross?) technologies.

And Quebec no longer wants all other north american countries to die slowly and away from them, but have now signed into the 2065 version of NAFTA.

I couldnt answer that, seeing that Im not an expert on Oil, or do I know if all the things you say in the SR world are true, I havent played in awhile and we havent been messing too much in the workings of the corporations for me to remember whos sticking it to who. We have been playng low level style games.

But lets say its possibly backlash to the constent meddling of America and the oil producing contries have said enough and not renewed the leases with these "American" companies. Letting Fatima step in. And who says all the petroleum comes from the middle east? argentina and chile are suppose to have large oil reserves. The native nations of north america, now controlling alaska and such are sitting on tons of oil. Supposedly there is technology that allows us to make coal into oil and from all accounts Germany sit on shit loads of coal. Deep ocean drilling techniques probably have improved with deep ocean archology tech. It could be any number of "magical" reasons the dinosaur oil companies of today are out classed by the largest mega corp in the world.

Oh, and the american army stuff was to point out to people that think america owns exxon and the country directly benefits from the oil thing. In fact the government doesnt really get any money from the oil companies till they sell the gas. In the form of gas taxes. The oil companies get so many government kick backs they pay very little in taxes.

Shadowrun is supposed to be a dark and corrupt setting. You can't just extrapolate from today and say what is likely. You have to extrapolate from today and say, "how bad could things get?"

On the meta-thread of the Iraq invasion (I despise the media euphemism of "conflict" which suggests that it just happened somehow, rather than being someone's fault). It's not only about oil reserves in Iraq itself, or even providing a base of power in the middle east. It also provides an access route to the oil fields of Eastern Europe and Russia. Witness the enormous pipe building project which was agreed on long before the war began. It's not economical to fly oil out of a country and if the US is to (a) purchase Russian oil and (b) thus deprive the massively growing Chinese industrialisation of its figurative oxygen, then the land route is important. It's not just about getting to the top, it's about keeping others down.

As opposed to the Unocal pipeline that the Clinton Administration was negotiating with the Taliban to build up until August 1998? The project that was led by (among others) by the former US ambassador to Afghanistan and now Iraq, and consulted by (among other warlords) the current President of Afghanistan? The one that the two men agreed to continue investing in before there was a U.S.-propped "government" in Afghanistan?

Building a pipeline through Iraq isn't much better than building the Caucasus one after circumventing around Iran.

Oil politics is a fascinating subject. It's a shame that Rob Boyle seems to have known almost nothing about it when he wrote the S-K chapter of Corp Download.

Just be glad that your hometown hasn't been turned into a bug-filled, post-apocalyptic hellhole that no sane PC would want to run in, let alone live in.

Hello, my name is FanGirl, and I'm a Chicagoan.

I've always looked at the background as requiring a certain level of disbelief and went with it, especially as it relates to the late 1980s and early 1990s. An independent Quebec was a very real possibility and if they went that way, why would they still use the dollar and not want closer ties with their French cultured brethren? A west overrun by indians? Not likely, but the Seattle Sourcebook does mention a lot of Anglo sympithizers who fought with the indians. A South Florida that breaks away from the rest of the state to become a part of the Caribbean League? I can see that happeneing today.

If it bothers you, then change the setting for your players. If the canon progress bothers you, then ignore it. It's all make believe. Don't get hung up on whether this set of make believe is somehow more or less correct than that set of make believe.

And if it bothers you to the point that you can't/won't suspend disbelief, play something else. I quit buying BattleTech stuff simply because I disliked where the game universe was going and wanted no part of it. I don't like the current sourcebook format, so I won't buy them.

Ahhh, much obliged.

There might be some reason behind it. The South learns of a plan by the North to invade and preemtively strikes. OR the North has destabilized to the point that the warrinf factions threaten to spill over into the South and the South needs to end the conflict to stabilize the entire peninnsula. Or maybe the current ruling regime in Seoul, just decides enough is enough and wants to end the conflict once and for all.

hmm, 1986, oops...

It's the first part of the "modern timeline" I can find that diverges. Specifically, Warren Burger doesn't resign.

~J

ah, ok. i was just going by the general memory of how the "how it came to pass" is written and some old threads. still, we are allready 20 years past the point of division (or whatever).

I wouldn't say a writer should be forbidden from writing about an area/people/country that is dear to him, but if he isn't having fun writing about how his area/people/country has had bad things happen to it and how it has changed (often for the worse), then I think the writer needs replaced.

I'm from Florida. I've written (for myself, mostly) about how bad South Florida has become in the Sixth World. What is bad now has gotten even worse and I've had a blast doing it. Neighborhoods I know like the back of my hand are unrecognizable in 3050 in my mind. Landmarks I love with all my heart have been sold off to some Megacorps like Ares and are gone or changed. The house where I grew up is now in the middle of a racial/religious/national warzone between the Haitians and the Cubans and the NeoCommunists.

I've enjoyed every minute of tearing up my home.

If a writer isn't having fun, then he needs to stand aside and let someone who will have fun do the job. If FanPro and WizKids know there's a problem and aren't putting a stop to it, then shame on them. Otherwise, the writer should have the decency to tell Rob Boyle that he isn't having fun and either ask for another assignment or quit writing for Shadowrun altogether.

EDIT: I can't spell...or use grammar.

That's why I specified "modern timeline"—IEs masquerading as famous people and the whole of Earthdawn don't count, IMO.

~J

Agreed. If the Immortal Elves just assumed one identidy after another, but was never anyone important and only pulled the strings as an advisor to the throne would be one thing; being important figures like Queen Elizabeth or Eva Braun is something a little more hard to swallow.

Ubbergeek, I think you have every right to say you're pissed at the way your part of the country is portrayed, but you may be jumping to conclusions by attributing it to shoddy research. You may be better off questioning if the writers were biased in how they chose to portray things in the future.

Having said that... my brother relocated to Montreal a couple of years ago. He and his sig-other (a wonderful Parisienne) both agree that there is still a lot of anglophone bashing by the seperatists, a significantly large faction. I've seen a lot of stats that support the notion that Quebec is less tolerant of "different" people than most of the nation. Although I admit my part of the country comes a close second. (Hey, what's that common Quebec term for first-nations aboriginals translate into? "Savages?" Thought so.)

I'm not trying to start a fight, just pointing out that the ideas presented in the books come from somewhere. They weren't made up whole-cloth by the writers.

Perhaps it would be more productive for us all if you could tell us what your vision of PQ in the sixth world would be. And try to give us more than "realistic." We're talking about a fantasy world, after-all.

I'll point this thread out to one of my players, a born-and-bred Quebecois. Get some inside info.

The thing is this man, yeah the SR world is rather stereotypical and takes a whole lot of serious liberties. Why is this? Because it's a lot more fun to play in a messed up, chaotic and utterly different world. If you look too closely at any of the nations and social/political events in SR's lore you could probably find plenty of holes, especially if it deals with something near you. But that's not really the important part. SR is not meant to be a commentary on the way things are or even on the way they might become. It's meant to be an interesting, enjoyable game setting, and it does that wonderfully.

Hey I live in Seattle and have for 30 years! There are plenty of "mistakes" in the Canon material but I'm able to play around them. Occasionally we'll add something (like Seahawks Stadium or Safeco Field) or delete something (like the Kingdome or the Puyallup lavafields) but we try to avoid changing the published setting too much. And of course it could be worse, it's not like they had Tonga, Djibouti, and San Marino form an alliance and conquer the world or anything.