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SL James
LA or Runner Havens? Because I tried LA in Pro 6 and 7.

Because I always got the impression LA had some sort of DRM. I would have had to go back and rewrite all of the bookmarks myself (which I wasn't about to do) to get it to work.
Ratio
RH was what I was speaking of, but I just changed the order of the bookmarks in LA and saved it, closed it and opened it across the network on my laptop (just to be sure) and the bookmarks were in the changed (proper) order.

So, not sure. I generally get my pdfs from rpgnow or battlecorps since AJ had said at one point on one of those Screamsheet episodes (the first iirc) that neither of them included any watermarking or other nonsense. Dunno if vendor has anything to do with it, but I'd be interested in knowing whom you acquired it from just in case it does. smile.gif
Adam
Yeah; the DriveThru stuff is locked down a little tighter since they want to prevent you from removing the watermarking. If you think you'll want to edit your PDFs in any way, I suggest getting them from BattleCorps or RPGNow.

No plans [yet] to add the index to the PDF version -- if the PDF version gets updated in the future [which I wouldn't expect to happen until there is a second printing of the book, at the earliest] I'll add it on, but for now it's just going to be a freebie.
HalloranElder
QUOTE (HalloranElder)
Just bought Runner Havens from DriveThru, and have found a spelling mistake/Type already.

QUOTE (Runner Havens - Pg 74)
Seatle - The United Corporate Council
"After losing Dever back in the day Seattle is the last stronghold on this half of the continent. They're taking no chances."
* Pistons


I believe "Dever" should actually be "Denver".

And yes, I have already emailed them about it.

And I got a reply from them too!

I feel so special. biggrin.gif

Nice to know they care enough to respond.
HalloranElder
QUOTE (Adam)
Yeah; the DriveThru stuff is locked down a little tighter since they want to prevent you from removing the watermarking. If you think you'll want to edit your PDFs in any way, I suggest getting them from BattleCorps or RPGNow.

Hmm. I wish I had known that DriveThru are the only ones that lock theirs. If I had I probably would have bought all mine from somewhere else.

Oh well, you live and learn...
coyote6
QUOTE (HalloranElder)
Just bought Runner Havens from DriveThru, and have found a spelling mistake/Type already.

QUOTE (Runner Havens - Pg 74)
Seatle - The United Corporate Council
"After losing Dever back in the day Seattle is the last stronghold on this half of the continent. They're taking no chances."
* Pistons


I believe "Dever" should actually be "Denver".

And yes, I have already emailed them about it.

Most of the spelling mistakes/typos I noticed were in the runner comments; I kind of wondered if they were intentional. After all, commentary laced with spelling errors is kind of traditional online, no? wink.gif
SL James
Why? It's not enforced realism. It is, at best, just pure fucking laziness.
NightmareX
QUOTE (coyote6)
Most of the spelling mistakes/typos I noticed were in the runner comments; I kind of wondered if they were intentional. After all, commentary laced with spelling errors is kind of traditional online, no? wink.gif

Splling mitakes onlin? Wht ar U tlking aboot? Tat nver appens IRL! biggrin.gif

But seriously, reading through the Seattle section I did notice a couple of other minor complaints (aside from the Leopard Guards thing), namely:

- Jackpoint/ShadowSea replacing Shadowland/SL Seattle? frown.gif
- The Emerald City AR. "Toto, I don't think we're in Seattle anymore." This is one tourism initiative that's going to flop big-time in my games. It's just plain silly IMO.
- Office of Homeland Security? What's that? In SR there was no 9/11 so the direct cause for said Office is not a factor (although I could see one being created in response to the events of the SR timeline).
- DEA? Wrong, it's the DED (Drug Enforcement Division) in SR. See the novel 2XS.
- The USS Collin Powell. Why? I'm not saying a carrier couldn't be named after Powell in SR, but why the name drop?
- Wiki-Matrix. Groan. Yeah, it could easily have existed in SR til now without mention, but it's just another now-culture name drop I could do without.

And now the good things:

- Finishing the mob war (I especially liked the fiction at the begining of the Seattle section).
- Seattle elections (gives the feeling of a living, breathing city in the same way Super Tuesday did for the UCAS as a whole. Love it!)
- The Tir's Counsel of Princes goes bye-bye...publicly (I was about to have a fit over this til I read Frosty's comments, then I really liked it) wink.gif
- Seattle expands (Outremer sounds interesting)
- The Leather Devils (Damien go bye-bye, good ridence!)
- The Spikes (what can I say, I like the idea of Lord Torgo being in the slam)
- And saving the best for last - the Halloweeners!

<geekjoy moment> Seriously, I frigging love what they done to these guys. I don't know if it's a case of convergent developement or what but it fits into my group's SR world perfectly. To make a long story short, my favorite (and long time) SR character Nightmare "died" back in '63 and has become sort of a minor urban legend. He had a number of contacts within the Halloweeners gang, including an unnamed "gang leader" that was never fleshed out or used in game. So, when SR4 came out, my friend and I were discussing what happened to Slash-and-Burn and the gang in general. We came to the conclusion that S&B was probably killed by the Ancients. Then I piped up with the idea that Nightmare's unnamed gang leader contact took over the gang. Now RH comes out with a total unknown calling him/her/itself "Nightmare" running the gang! Sweet! Fits the contact takes over angle and the urban legend angle perfectly. smokin.gif Thank you Rob!!! biggrin.gif </geekjoy moment>

Overall, so far I'm really happy with RH....must read more!
SL James
QUOTE (NightmareX)
- The USS Collin Powell.  Why?  I'm not saying a carrier couldn't be named after Powell in SR, but why the name drop?

The Powell-class CVNs were introduced in New Seattle. Thank Steve.

QUOTE
- Wiki-Matrix.  Groan.  Yeah, it could easily have existed in SR til now without mention, but it's just another now-culture name drop I could do without.

Wiki was introduced in SOTA:64.

QUOTE
- Seattle elections (gives the feeling of a living, breathing city in the same way Super Tuesday did for the UCAS as a whole.  Love it!)

What's wrong with having the same Governor for 20 years - from the Night of Rage to the Arcology Shutdown? Newark's had the same mayor for decades, and things are... Oh, wait.

QUOTE
- The Tir's Counsel of Princes goes bye-bye...publicly (I was about to have a fit over this til I read Frosty's comments, then I really liked it) wink.gif

That might not be the most stupid thing ever done in Shadowrun, but jesus fuck, man. It's pretty high on the list.

QUOTE
- The Spikes (what can I say, I like the idea of Lord Torgo being in the slam)

Yeah. because If there was ever a character who would be willing to go peacefully into prison, it's SO Lord Torgo. Right.

QUOTE
Thank you  Rob!!!  biggrin.gif

I'd say thank you Christian, and the people at Fanpro GmbH who seem to actually be running the show (and I say this in part because if you need to be told what major canon events are being done, then you aren't really in charge of the line, now, are you?)

QUOTE
Overall, so far I'm really happy with RH....must read more!

...
Wow.

This seems like almost as much an aggregation of crap as Loose Alliances (A book for which the best thing I can say about it is that after spending four years getting a degree in Political Science with a concentration in political theory was that it only made me WANT to vomit).
Brahm
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Jul 14 2006, 04:34 AM)
- Office of Homeland Security? What's that? In SR there was no 9/11 so the direct cause for said Office is not a factor (although I could see one being created in response to the events of the SR timeline).

The Crash 2.0 was a hell of a lot bigger than a couple of buildings falling down. Of course it is assumed that Winternight is pretty much defunct. But that isn't nessasarily going to stop a kneejerk reaction.

I can see the Emerald City initative in play being a tiring flop with most people, a seedy dictate by the powers that be distained by the people seems to fit right in.

Shadowrun is one bigazz name drop. It has always been now, whenever now is, reflected darkly forward. Corny with a side of corn. *shrug*

P.S. Oooh Nooos! SL James doesn't like the book and comes out of the gate pissing all over it. I sure didn't see that coming. eek.gif
winterhawk11
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Thank you  Rob!!!  biggrin.gif

I'd say thank you Christian, and the people at Fanpro GmbH who seem to actually be running the show (and I say this in part because if you need to be told what major canon events are being done, then you aren't really in charge of the line, now, are you?)

Actually, that was me. Christian had nothing to do with it. So if you want to pee in somebody's Cheerios, mine's the bowl you're looking for. Except you'll have to pee on my Pop-Tart, 'cuz I don't have any Cheerios. smile.gif

Anyway, glad you liked it, NightmareX. smile.gif
Witness
I'm wondering what kind of shit SL James'll sling at RH when he's actually read it!
Witness
It occurs to me that that last comment of mine might be interpreted as being negative towards Runner Havens, and implying that it deserves to have excrement flung at it. That was not my meaning. I really quite like Runner Havens.

Grinder
Some of his ideas are good, actually. (Not directed to RH, just in general)
JongWK
QUOTE
- Jackpoint/ShadowSea replacing Shadowland/SL Seattle? frown.gif


There's a shift in how people do their biz in 2070, and it shows.


QUOTE
- The Emerald City AR.  "Toto, I don't think we're in Seattle anymore."  This is one tourism initiative that's going to flop big-time in my games.  It's just plain silly IMO.


Clearly, you work for Vancouver's tourism industry. wink.gif


QUOTE
- The USS Collin Powell.  Why?  I'm not saying a carrier couldn't be named after Powell in SR, but why the name drop?


The Colin Powell and Akihito supercarriers appear in Rigger 3. Someday, we'll have the USS Dunkelzahn. nyahnyah.gif


QUOTE
- Finishing the mob war (I especially liked the fiction at the begining of the Seattle section).


You can thank AH for that story.


QUOTE
- Seattle elections (gives the feeling of a living, breathing city in the same way Super Tuesday did for the UCAS as a whole.  Love it!)


Glad you liked it. What do you think of the candidates?
Witness
I can tell you it's very inconvenient to me to have Kenneth Brackhaven still around in 2070. It is a terrible lapse in your psychic abilities not to know that I'd killed him off in my campaign!
JongWK
QUOTE (Witness)
I can tell you it's very inconvenient to me to have Kenneth Brackhaven still around in 2070. It is a terrible lapse in your psychic abilities not to know that I'd killed him off in my campaign!

Shedim, then?

wink.gif
the_dunner
I'm still making my way through the Seattle section, but I had to mention one specific item. The top grossing movies listing on p.78 is really damned funny.

I thoroughly enjoyed Hong Kong. I was expecting just an update of SoA, and was impressed with how much more comprehensive this was than I expected. The expansive use of geomancy was a nice touch and really sets up a ton of really bizarre seeming runs. Puck's section on the Bureau of Heaven and Earth also seemed particularly intriguing.

The only thing that I'm not sure about so far are the Laesa. I don't recall seeing them in previous materials, so I think they're new to this book. However, after reading the description a few times, I'm still not sold on why they're classified as a syndicate instead of a gang.
JongWK
QUOTE (the_dunner)
I'm still making my way through the Seattle section, but I had to mention one specific item. The top grossing movies listing on p.78 is really damned funny.

Have you figured out all of them? cool.gif
Witness
Transmet was obvious. I haven't caught the other references, I don't think.
Witness
OK if I'm right then it's a hell of a mixed bag! A hindu text, two computer game references and a certain TV space opera? Right track?
stevebugge
QUOTE (JongWK @ Jul 14 2006, 08:32 AM)
QUOTE
- The Emerald City AR.  "Toto, I don't think we're in Seattle anymore."  This is one tourism initiative that's going to flop big-time in my games.  It's just plain silly IMO.


Clearly, you work for Vancouver's tourism industry. wink.gif

QUOTE (Darrell Bryan @ general manager of Victoria Clipper, the largest tour operator in the Northwest)
"Thirty-five years ago I smoked dope and probably could have come up with something like that,"
the_dunner
2 & 3 were both jumping out of the book obvious to me. 4 & 5 made sense once I realized that I was looking for pop culture references. 1 is still pretty much meaningless to me, unless it's meant to be a TNG reference.
JongWK
QUOTE (Witness @ Jul 14 2006, 03:14 PM)
OK if I'm right then it's a hell of a mixed bag! A hindu text, two computer game references and a certain TV space opera? Right track?

If you want to make this a game, PM me and I'll let you know if you were right. Some are dead easy, some aren't. None of them are THAT difficult, though. smile.gif
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (the_dunner)
I thoroughly enjoyed Hong Kong. I was expecting just an update of SoA, and was impressed with how much more comprehensive this was than I expected. The expansive use of geomancy was a nice touch and really sets up a ton of really bizarre seeming runs. Puck's section on the Bureau of Heaven and Earth also seemed particularly intriguing.

Glad to hear you enjoyed it. I set out to make it as comprehensive as I could so that players would want to set games there as much as they do Seattle.
Shrike30
I've really been looking forwards to the HK content because I want to get my group OUT of Seattle. Living here, it's easy to settle for a kind of "watered-down-by-the-present" image of the place, and I'm interested in taking a jump to another heavily-developed city in-game.

And I'll admit, I've got a weakness for old John Woo films.
jklst14
QUOTE (JongWK)


QUOTE
- Seattle elections (gives the feeling of a living, breathing city in the same way Super Tuesday did for the UCAS as a whole.  Love it!)


Glad you liked it. What do you think of the candidates?


I'm planning on running Dreamchipper (updated to 4th edition) for my group. I was flipping through the module and when I looked at the back, I found stats for the current Governor, including program carriers! I knew that name sounded familiar. smile.gif

All around awesome work on RH, BTW.
Dr. Dodge
QUOTE (jklst14)
I'm planning on running Dreamchipper (updated to 4th edition) for my group.  I was flipping through the module and when I looked at the back, I found stats for the current Governor, including program carriers!  I knew that name sounded familiar.  smile.gif

heh, me too. i guess i need to take a look at RH and catch the throwback.
NightmareX
QUOTE (SL James)
The Powell-class CVNs were introduced in New Seattle. Thank Steve.
Wiki was introduced in SOTA:64.


See, this is what I get for not reading every last tidbit of the prior fluff books. wink.gif My bad.

QUOTE (SL James)
That might not be the most stupid thing ever done in Shadowrun, but jesus fuck, man. It's pretty high on the list.


Why bother directly controling things when the populace is going to give you headaches? Far easier to move behind the scenes (cough...Telestrian...cough) and do the puppet master routine til the peasents are ready to obey again. The Princes have been doing that crap for an entire Age, so what makes a temporary reorganization so stupid?

QUOTE (SL James)
Yeah. because If there was ever a character who would be willing to go peacefully into prison, it's SO Lord Torgo. Right.


That's what tasers and a shitload of narcoject is for (not to mention stun spells). Given the bad press Seattle Lonestar has been getting regarding metahuman rights abuses, it's pretty easy to see why they would want to take an obviously criminal meta like Torgo down soft and put him on trial. Makes them look better.

QUOTE (SL James)
This seems like almost as much an aggregation of crap as Loose Alliances (A book for which the best thing I can say about it is that after spending four years getting a degree in Political Science with a concentration in political theory was that it only made me WANT to vomit).


And we all know that the world works exactly the way that people with degrees think it should all the time. It is contractually obligated to, after all. sarcastic.gif I wasn't thrilled by LA, but I didn't hate it either.
NightmareX
QUOTE (winterhawk11)
Anyway, glad you liked it, NightmareX. smile.gif

Very much so cool.gif

Btw, did you do the Vory section too? If so you're definitely reading my mind. grinbig.gif The Seattle campaign I'm running now is set in '69 (wanted to leave room to adapt it to RH), and the team's troll magician adept is a Vory enforcer. She took a Vory boss as a contact so I fleshed him out as one Piotr Rustovich (81, lost his sons in the Eurowars) who I have as the head of the Seattle Vory. His leuitenents include Alexi (a heavily cyber former Russian intelligence agent - calm, cold, and calculating) and Boris (a hot tempered ambitious thug), both human. Anway, the old man is looking to leave a legacy, and intended to retire soon and give control of the syndicate over to Alexi, who he sees somewhat as a surogate son. Which will piss Boris off royally when he gets wind of it. As the storyline progresses, I was going to have Boris kill the old man and frame Alexi and the PC for it (she's been screwing up enough to make Boris see her as a liability) then see where the dice fell as to who would end up in control (as a GM favoring Alexi for the job, and hoping Boris would get geeked). And now comes RH, which has one Aleksander “Terminator” Bilotkiy, a heavily-cybered hatchet man in charge of the Seattle Vory in 2070 biggrin.gif
NightmareX
QUOTE (JongWK)
There's a shift in how people do their biz in 2070, and it shows.


Yeah, it's enevitable with the second Crash and the new wireless Matrix. Just nostalgia talking. Gonna miss my Shadowland frown.gif

QUOTE (JongWK)
Clearly, you work for Vancouver's tourism industry.  wink.gif


eek.gif You found me out! Remind me though, I've really gotta get on their case and find out why my paychecks aren't rolling in. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE (JongWK)
The Colin Powell and Akihito supercarriers appear in Rigger 3. Someday, we'll have the USS Dunkelzahn.  nyahnyah.gif


Doh! Yet another section of a book I didn't bother reading. Naval engagements have never been a big thing in my SR games though wink.gif

QUOTE (JongWK)
QUOTE
- Finishing the mob war (I especially liked the fiction at the begining of the Seattle section).


You can thank AH for that story.


Thank you AH!

QUOTE (JongWK)
Glad you liked it. What do you think of the candidates?


Well, I like Dzhugashvili (despite the fact that I can't pronounce her name to save my life) and the idea of an Independance party, but I don't like the idea of Seattle actually succeeding (despite Washington's negligence toward my favorite 'plex). So, I'm gonna have to go with good old Julius (I knew I recognized the name from somewhere wink.gif ) as my favorite. Besides, having an ex-runner in the big chair is good for biz (in theory).

Brackhaven, on the other hand, needs to be shot....many, many times (show you care, say it with sabots wink.gif ). His Humanis garbage just doesn't fly, since I love my metas. He's kinda someone you love to hate.
NightmareX
QUOTE (stevebugge)
You think this is bad?
Try this Washington State's official tourism promotion site.

I'm trying to ignore that! Despite the fact that I live in Wisconsin, it's just embarassing embarrassed.gif
winterhawk11
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Btw, did you do the Vory section too?

Nope, can't take credit for that one. I did the gangs and most of the Seattle locations (the nightclubs and restaurants and stuff, not the Seattle districts). AH and JWK did all the rest of the Seattle chapter.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (winterhawk11)
I did the gangs and most of the Seattle locations (the nightclubs and restaurants and stuff, not the Seattle districts).

Is it just me, or does every new location book feature fewer of the latter? frown.gif

BTW, talk about loss of information... what happened to your page and the stories of your current SR4 campaign?
SL James
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Well, I like Dzhugashvili (despite the fact that I can't pronounce her name to save my life)

jU-gash-vil-E

It's Georgian. And Josef Stalin's family surname. I doubt this is a coincidence.

Most Georgian surnames end in -vili or -adze, btw.

QUOTE (NightmareX)
And now comes RH, which has one Aleksander “Terminator” Bilotkiy, a heavily-cybered hatchet man in charge of the Seattle Vory in 2070 biggrin.gif

I guess DE couldn't convince them to use the name "Viktor Konchin."
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (SL James @ Jul 15 2006, 08:59 PM)
I guess DE couldn't convince them to use the name "Viktor Konchin."

Hah, that would have been sweet, but I was so busy with the HK part that I didn't really think to suggest it. wink.gif

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Is it just me, or does every new location book feature fewer of the latter?


Honestly, the original Seattle Sourcebook read like a AAA Travel Guide with its micro-blurbs on every little thing. We wanted to focus on a decent amount of locations with a bit of depth and include places we're likely to use or reference again somewhere.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Honestly, the original Seattle Sourcebook read like a AAA Travel Guide with its micro-blurbs on every little thing.

Indeed, which made it very useful in mid-game. wink.gif
Runner Havens looks nice, too, but it features less hard facts. Somehow it feels more like an update to old material than a new start...

The only thing that rubs me totally the wrong way is the Social Networking thing adapted by the runner "community":
Social Networking is an information security nightmare... Profiling, Infiltration and Identity Theft made easy.
Bull
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Honestly, the original Seattle Sourcebook read like a AAA Travel Guide with its micro-blurbs on every little thing.

Indeed, which made it very useful in mid-game. wink.gif
Runner Havens looks nice, too, but it features less hard facts. Somehow it feels more like an update to old material than a new start...

The only thing that rubs me totally the wrong way is the Social Networking thing adapted by the runner "community":
Social Networking is an information security nightmare... Profiling, Infiltration and Identity Theft made easy.

Not when it's a closed system.

The new "Shadowland" as presented in the books is basically a closed network run by Fastjack. There's a limited number of regular users, and various "guests" will be brought in for certain topics.

This was done partly so that FanPro could more easily start developing the Shadowtalk "Cast", IIRC. A specific list of characters for writers to use, rather than what became the norm with hundreds of random "one shot" names and regular insertion of the names of friends. The upside, is that we'll get to know the characters, the way we got to know Hatchetman and the gang back in the day... the downside is that you'll see less of the "Hrmm, lets give these fellow dumpshockers a thrill" type of cameos.

Bull
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Bull)
Not when it's a closed system.

Even/especially then - if you trust the system, you will fall prey to it's abuse.

The core problem is within the social network itself: It stores lots of personal data - and connects the dots. RH even goes lengths to explain that this network basically makes you who you are.
So your identity has been digitalized and stored, ready to be used or taken over by anyone capable of doing so.

Want to impersonate someone after killing him? If he participated in a social network, that saves you lot's of gathering intel.

If at all, most runners really concerned with anonymity would have multiple fake accounts, contradicting each other and creating white noise in a sea of information.

QUOTE (Bull)
The new "Shadowland" as presented in the books is basically a closed network run by Fastjack.  There's a limited number of regular users, and various "guests" will be brought in for certain topics.

Whether you use JackPoints or ShadowSea isn't that important... those networks are open to anyone capable of finding them or being invited - as explained in RH.
On the other hand, the community is already huge and has a huge fluctuation, so newcomers are quite normal.

QUOTE (Bull)
This was done partly so that FanPro could more easily start developing the Shadowtalk "Cast", IIRC.  A specific list of characters for writers to use, rather than what became the norm with hundreds of random "one shot" names and regular insertion of the names of friends.  The upside, is that we'll get to know the characters, the way we got to know Hatchetman and the gang back in the day...  the downside is that you'll see less of the "Hrmm, lets give these fellow dumpshockers a thrill" type of cameos.

Sure thing, no problem with that... I'm just very cautious concerning IRL social networking services. wink.gif
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Whether you use JackPoints or ShadowSea isn't that important... those networks are open to anyone capable of finding them or being invited - as explained in RH.
On the other hand, the community is already huge and has a huge fluctuation, so newcomers are quite normal.


In the case of JackPoint, that's not true. JackPoint is not open to anyone capable of finding it, nor is it huge or have a fluctuation of users.

JackPoint can be infiltrated, if someone is determined, knows what they are looking for, and has access to the secure passkeys of an invited user. Infiltrating it will not gain you much besides intel, though. You could damage the user's reputation, but given how small and inclusive the community is, that would usually be a surefire way of giving yourself away. You could spread disinformation, but information posted on JackPoint is already considered subjective. You could try to damage the network, but it is distributed and decentralized and even if destroyed, would not stay down very long.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
In the case of JackPoint, that's not true. JackPoint is not open to anyone capable of finding it, nor is it huge or have a fluctuation of users.

Ok, I stand corrected, 46 Users online isn't that big - does that mean that Joe Average Runner will get the ingame image of the scourcebooks only after they have been dumped somewhere else?

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Infiltrating it will not gain you much besides intel, though.

That's what I was worried about. indifferent.gif
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Ok, I stand corrected, 46 Users online isn't that big - does that mean that Joe Average Runner will get the ingame image of the scourcebooks only after they have been dumped somewhere else?


That's up to the GM. The books are written as if the reader is a member of JackPoint (hence the splash screen at the beginning of the books), but that doesn't necessarily mean each player's character is. That is up to how a group's GM wants to disseminate sourcebook info. Setting-wise, though, Joe Average Runner is not a member of JackPoint and may never see the information presented in JackPoint. JackPoint isn't the same sort of democratic system Shadowland was, though more democratic data havens exist in SR4.

QUOTE
That's what I was worried about.


In this regard, though, JackPoint is certainly more secure than Shadowland was, given how just about anyone could log into there (including great dragons, immortal elves, etc.).
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
In this regard, though, JackPoint is certainly more secure than Shadowland was, given how just about anyone could log into there (including great dragons, immortal elves, etc.).

Sure, but classic data havens likeshadowland lacked the automated networking schemes, so there was less intel to begin with. Just a matter of paranoia. smile.gif
Raskolnikov
The large network of datahavens run by neoanarchists and like-minded groups has been replaced by an exclusive 100-member (ish) cliche of ultra-criminals.

This is actually less secure.

The data was never the issue on Shadowland. Paydata usually hit the public boards only after it had lost its selling power, although it is suggested by the intro tone of some of the source books that some paydata did hit Shadowland first and free.

It was the case, that one could hide in the volume of Shadowland. Just like anonymous email routers today, it was secure because you were passing through so many logless systems with so many other users that even if the opposition identified one end of your conversation, they could not match your data trail to any of the volume coming out the other side without rooting the blackbox for an extended period of time.

Now, all communication is limited to a few users. This means that only a few conversations are going on at any one time. When a user posts, you don't need access to the blackbox to see who made it, you just need to be further down their connection branch and watching the traffic. Set up with even the best security, only a fool would use that network for anything sensitive. Since you can identify which stream has the posting user, you can also pull it offline and crack it with the giant decryption boxes, which would take too long if you were trying to decrypt hundreds of streams to find the one you wanted.

Assuming the big-name posters aren't fools, this means the network is simply for common-sense information about locations and players. I doubt the source books will be written this way.

But the information isn't even the major issue. Most of the information posted on Shadowland could be browsed. The most secure stuff was exactly as secure as Jackpoint up to the point Captain Chaos decided to post it public. Considering he was one of the best, I'm sure the security implications of posting anything public were not confusing to him.

So Jackpoint and Shadowland really have about the same data integrity but Jackpoint doesn't provide the anti-corp resistance service that Shadowland did.

Corporations where never interested in the data. The opportunity for disinformation was certainly appreciated and taken advantage of, but the most important thing on Shadowland was user information.

Corporate security is not a Keystone Cop outfit. They will find out Jackpoint exists. Once they do, as long as runners want to use it, they have a very convenient way to track the comings and goings of the biggest criminal names in freelance operations. Even if one considers that the best posters take every precaution, there is still a wealth of information. Average posting times, posting trends, what the users is posting about at any given time, and the subjects they browse are all things you don't want corp sec profiling about you, even if they can never 100% locate the address you're logging in from.

On Shadowland, corp sec could bring up all your public posts and get some of this information. The dates and times could be altered by the best and often were. On Jackpoint they don't need to rely on the stamp, they have their own dating. Private secure posts were kept secure unless corp sec knew what to target for an intrusion. Breaking into Shadowland was perhaps, on average, a little easier than it is to break into Jackpoint. However, you don't need to break into Jackpoint unless you want something that isn't contained in the posts and stories themselves. While on Shadowland the security force would need to identify that they wanted to find out what you were doing and then figure out where in the matrix you were doing it (which data haven) and then break into that system to find your private communications or postings, on Jackpoint they can afford to just track, decrypt, and store everything that goes across it and watch it. They don't need to figure out that they are interested in any one runner. If a runner's private messages include to many references to an upcoming job, the runner has just politely notified the corp they need to be watched. As stated earlier, Jackpoint cannot be used for sensitive information, even (especially) in an emergency.

So, public data slightly more secure on Jackpoint than on Shadowland. Since Shadowland was supposed to be public, this means nothing, really. Private data is far easier to obtain from Jackpoint than it was from Shadowland. So this is lost functionality unless the best shadow runners are idiots who don't realize this, which I assume they are not. Profiling information on Jackpoint is far easier to recover. Overall, Jackpoint is a poor replacement to Shadowland as far as IC reasoning goes.
ornot
I've not gotten hold of havens yet, so I've not read about Jackpoint.

I would suggest in response to your comments about the many ways corps could crack Jackpoint and use it, that perhaps Jackpoint is actually sanctioned unofficially by the corps. Paranoid yet?

Also, if there are only 100 registered users on Jackpoint, the corps that hack into it to get information on criminal activity only get information on a fraction of users. Is it not within the bounds of possibility that there are many Jackpoint-esque systems about?
Brahm
In just a community of 100 highrollers in the 6th World you should still be plenty paranoid. I'm paranoid with the other 3, 4, or 5 PCs around the table and that's even with the metagaming knowledge that they know I'm going to key the player's car if they screw my PC over. eek.gif wink.gif

I haven't read RH yet, so of course I say this with reservations, but this doesn't sound like something that really bothers me much. It sounds more like, in game world terms, something to try filter out some of the bullsh!t noise/spam that I always felt was missing from Shadowland. Without actually missing it. smile.gif More like a private booth in Shadowland. Not unlike some of the conversations that were held between GDs, IEs, and others. You know that one with Jungle Cat and Orange Queen, etc. The details are just escaping me now or I'd pop up a link to it.
Witness
If Fastjack set up Jackpoint, I'd say it's pretty safe.
SL James
Sure. From his end.
Brahm
I'm going to agree with SL James there. Read SF where Pax and her lackies sleazed into a discussion without being recognized. Although CC eventually crashed her ass out he didn't initially recognize her for who she was, even when there was some wierd stuff going on. Only after she revealed herself.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Raskolnikov)
The large network of datahavens run by neoanarchists and like-minded groups has been replaced by an exclusive 100-member (ish) cliche of ultra-criminals.

This is actually less secure.

My problem with JackPoints/ShadowSea is not the structure - it's the data.

JackPoints may be very well structured as the evil twin of Freenet - running secretly on the hacked systems of Joe Average (remember ebaychristmas.net?). Sniffing the traffic generated by such a system is pretty much futile... it's constantly syncing, growing and moving.
ShadowSea, on the other hand, is pretty much a plain old central DataHaven, as are the Nexus or the Helix - no change here.

It's what stored on those system is what freaks the hell out of the paranoid me - those systems both maintain extensive profiles of the users... a state most runners should be allergic to. wink.gif
(As Shadowrun is about the fact that no security is abolute, that is quite a gamble.)
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