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Rock
In the Street Samurai Catalog, on page 79 Findler-Man is discussing the Internal Voice Mask piece of cyberware by saying:

QUOTE
>>>>>[Wow!  Now I can sound like Governor Shultz!  Or...or...Max Foley!  Or...or...Neil the Ork Barbarian!  Or...or...Holly Brighton!  Or...or...Maria Mercurial!  Or...or...Dunkelzahn The Dragon!  (And get my own resort...and my own trideo show...and...and...)]<<<<<


This is followed up by someone with the screenname of Dunkelzahn saying:
QUOTE
>>>>>[Excuse me?]<<<<<


And then FastJack saying:
QUOTE
>>>>>[????]<<<<<


So is this really Dunkelzahn replying or some poser? Granted this is in the early day of the game, but there is no "The Big D" and there is a timestamp with the name.
Kremlin KOA
early shadowrun: check
Dragon replying to Findler-man: Check
Findler-Man is a Prime runner: Check
Frag-o Delux
I am not sure when the "The Big D" handle statered. But yeah Dunky did reply to posts, more accurately his translater did. Dragons can't jack into the matrix, in fact I think he leaves a thing in his will for a corp to find a way for dragons and other animals to be gien maxtix access.

Also in early SR books everyone had a time stamp except Smiling Bandit which usually was <Strikes again!/HA-HA-HA> Then later posters started monkeying with timestamps, like Fastjack, then eventually timestamps were dropped all together.

EDIT: I think AH may have a list of other "Famous" Posters as well. Like Orange Queen, Laughing Man, The Scribe, Wordsmyth and so on. I forget who most of them are, except the easy ones, like Orange Queen - Hestaby and the Scribe being Ehrin the Scribe, oh and The Laughing Man being Harlequinn.
Rock
I figured it was THE Dunkelzahn, but given how he later used The Big D as his screenname, it could have just been a poser.

It would make an interesting short story though. Some punk decker kid gets into Shadowland and posts as a dragon while getting yelled at by his mom for not taking the trash out again. He's having a grand ol' time decking, pretending he's a dragon while looking at porn on this site, playing Halo97 on that site, doing his homework and DINGDONG! the door bell rings and Dunkelzahn is there and either serves him with a restraining order barring him from using anything associated with Dunkelzahn or justs eats him right then and there.
Frag-o Delux
That would be funny, and its your game. Im just going along with other sources that pointed to him as being the real deal. Its been so long since I looked at any of the first edition books or talked about them, I dont remember where it really shows who it is. Also I dont know of any cases of a shadowposter having his ID faked by another person in the books. While possible I suppose, I think the writers of the books just used the characters as flavor, not much more.

hyzmarca
Dunkie couldn't use a DNI back then but he was perfectly able to use a keyboard and a mouse. Most dragons can. It was probably him posting directly; there is no need for a translator.

The original post was incorrect because you can't possibly sound like Dunkie. Big D doesn't sound like anything. He speaks using magical telepathy, like all dragons. You can't exactly use a voice mask to sound like magical telepathy.

Incidently, Dunkie is able to use a DNI now so if he starts posting again there shouldn't be much surprise.
Frag-o Delux
Wasnt there something about getting into Shadowland that you had to hack your own account to be part of it? Its not like you emailed Capt'n Chaos and asked for an account. In first edition there wasnt rules for a tortoise to have the progs to hack a host. And I maybe mistaken, but I seem to remember there being mention of his translator doing his online chatting for him.
Witness
I thought most if not all dragons can take human form. And although in places it seems like the general public aren't generally aware of that fact, how do we explain the Big D being driven in a limo when he 'died'?
Trax
That's what I thought when I first started playing SR and didn't know they could take human form. I was very confused at how a dragon could be killed by something as insignificant as a bomb in a limo, unless it was a very BIG limo.
Frag-o Delux
They can take human form. But what does that have to do with anything?

I dont think a dragon is going to lose magic so he can surf the matrix faster. And trode nets for surfing the matrix didnt come to the game till second edition, well after that post. Bid D often shoed up in human form to go on talkshows and such. But when he wanted to make an impression he showed up in his scaley form, requiring a translater. Where do you think Daviar came from?

EDIT: And the bomb in the limo was (I think) explained that it wasnt a bomb at all. It was Bid D sacrificing himself to stop the Horrors. So it wasnt joe mad bomber that took out the Great Wyrm, but himself.
Witness
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jul 2 2006, 02:11 PM)
They can take human form. But what does that have to do with anything?

It means that Big D could speak (when in human form). So I would disagree with hyzmarca that
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The original post was incorrect because you can't possibly sound like Dunkie. Big D doesn't sound like anything. He speaks using magical telepathy, like all dragons.

That's all.
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (Witness)
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jul 2 2006, 02:11 PM)
They can take human form. But what does that have to do with anything?

It means that Big D could speak (when in human form). So I would disagree with hyzmarca that
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The original post was incorrect because you can't possibly sound like Dunkie. Big D doesn't sound like anything. He speaks using magical telepathy, like all dragons.

That's all.

OH, I was still thinking about the matrix question.
hobgoblin
hmm, i had the impression that those translaters showed up in late SR2 or with SR3, but then i never read any of the novels.

ie, the SR2 history chapter never talks much about a translator when they talk about big D having its 24 hour interview, but i do belive said info showed up in SR3, making read it two times because i had never encounterd that bit before...
Frag-o Delux
I dont think they talked much about the habits of dragons at all till around the time of the adventure Super Tuesday. Other then the power hungry treasure hoarding stereotype we all know and love. I do believe though there is a list of Big D's translaters somewhere, or a shadowposter names them and when they were around. This maybe something AH already stashed away. It also depends on the dragon too I suppose. Lofwyr I dont think does much "human" mascarading, but Bid D did, so does Masaru and that other little dragon that likes to go clubbing.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
I dont think a dragon is going to lose magic so he can surf the matrix faster.

That is provably untrue. Even in human form a dragon wouldn't be able to use a human datajack. The brain chemestry is too different. However, there does exist a single dragon datajack in SR canon and it is implanted in a dragon. Its owner is quite happy with the utility it provides.
Frag-o Delux
There is always an exception to every rule.
Member #5177
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jul 2 2006, 02:11 PM)
I dont think a dragon is going to lose magic so he can surf the matrix faster.

That is provably untrue. Even in human form a dragon wouldn't be able to use a human datajack. The brain chemestry is too different. However, there does exist a single dragon datajack in SR canon and it is implanted in a dragon. Its owner is quite happy with the utility it provides.

Eliohan from Dragon Hunt? If so, I would disagree with his level of happiness as the first time he entered the actual matrix it drove him mad and caused amnesia. By he end of the adventure, he is working with Ares, but they are no closer to solving the problems.
Witness
He did kinda die in System Failure. Apparently. So that does sort of solve one problem.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
I dont think they talked much about the habits of dragons at all till around the time of the adventure Super Tuesday. Other then the power hungry treasure hoarding stereotype we all know and love. I do believe though there is a list of Big D's translaters somewhere, or a shadowposter names them and when they were around. This maybe something AH already stashed away. It also depends on the dragon too I suppose. Lofwyr I dont think does much "human" mascarading, but Bid D did, so does Masaru and that other little dragon that likes to go clubbing.

ah, super tuesday. that was part of the SR2 set, right? explains a bit wink.gif

and i belive i have seen the AH list of translators...
Butterblume
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Wasnt there something about getting into Shadowland that you had to hack your own account to be part of it? Its not like you emailed Capt'n Chaos and asked for an account. In first edition there wasnt rules for a tortoise to have the progs to hack a host. And I maybe mistaken, but I seem to remember there being mention of his translator doing his online chatting for him.

Some underling could have hacked in, probably someone who scanned the matrix for mentioning Dunkelzahn. The message itself could be authentic. Or not wink.gif.

The Street Samurai Catalogue was my first book with shadowtalk, and I love Shadowtalk for stuff like this.
Frag-o Delux
Yeah Super Tuesday was SR2, I dont remember the exact dates, and between me and my brother our SR collection is in two different houses. He has the advenures, seeing that hes the GM so I cant tell you the publish date. And so far I cant find it on any online stores or ebay to find the publish dates, but Im 99% sure its a SR2 product.
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (Butterblume)
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Wasnt there something about getting into Shadowland that you had to hack your own account to be part of it? Its not like you emailed Capt'n Chaos and asked for an account. In first edition there wasnt rules for a tortoise to have the progs to hack a host. And I maybe mistaken, but I seem to remember there being mention of his translator doing his online chatting for him.

Some underling could have hacked in, probably someone who scanned the matrix for mentioning Dunkelzahn. The message itself could be authentic. Or not wink.gif.

The Street Samurai Catalogue was my first book with shadowtalk, and I love Shadowtalk for stuff like this.

Well after finding out all the stuff about dunkie and his wide spread spy network now, 10+ years after the first post by him, yeah its possible someone hacked the host fo rhim and then let him do all the posting from then out.
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
However, there does exist a single dragon datajack in SR canon and it is implanted in a dragon. Its owner is quite happy with the utility it provides.

What about Celedyr? From what I recall he's big on the Matrix with Transys in his pocket and all, and I thought he spent most of his time online. I guess I can't say for certain that he's jacked, but I sure thought so...
Ancient History
Some dragons, notably Dunkelzahn, possessed a trusted metahuman decker in order to access the Matrix. Dunkie also experimented with a draconic 'trode net, as I recall.
NightmareX
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
hmm, i had the impression that those translaters showed up in late SR2 or with SR3, but then i never read any of the novels.

ie, the SR2 history chapter never talks much about a translator when they talk about big D having its 24 hour interview, but i do belive said info showed up in SR3, making read it two times because i had never encounterd that bit before...

The translators have been around since 1st edition.

Dunklezahn, the Mass Media Dragon

Also note Lofwyr's use of translators in Never Deal with a Dragon and Never Trust an Elf (IIRC that is, hopefully I got the titles right too indifferent.gif ).
Witness
So can someone clear the limo issue up for me?
Back in Earthdawn days, IIRC, it was a major secret that the human 'minion' Dark Tooth was actually Mountainshadow's human form.
If the Big D was in a limo then presumably he was openly assuming human form. At what point did he reveal that he could do this? I would have thought it must have created quite a stir, and must have annoyed some people when they discovered that he could have communicated normally if he'd wanted to.
James McMurray
He definitely openly assumed human form, although I don't know when it would have first happened. How did he communnicate with the first reporters that interviewed him? Did they have to repeat everything he said for the camera or did he say it out loud?
Calvin Hobbes
He had a bunch of interpreters that did just that.
James McMurray
Is there a definitive point where he first showed up openly in human form?
Shrike30
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
And I maybe mistaken, but I seem to remember there being mention of his translator doing his online chatting for him.

Is there some reason a dragon in human form can't use a keyboard or goggles/gloves?
Ancient History
What self-respecting dragon would use tortoise mode? I mean, really. nyahnyah.gif
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jul 3 2006, 03:33 PM)
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jul 2 2006, 11:23 AM)
And I maybe mistaken, but I seem to remember there being mention of his translator doing his online chatting for him.

Is there some reason a dragon in human form can't use a keyboard or goggles/gloves?

There isnt now, but in first edition there was no rules for running a tortise or cold ASIST, hell a hot ASIST for that matter since they didnt make the distinction till 2nd edition, then third edition introduced trode nets, if I remember correctlly. Its been many years since I looked through the first edition stuff, but Im almost possitive everything was DNI. Im sure any sentient creature could now surf the matrix if they have the physical ability to manipulate the input and output devices. The cyber side of things is trickier since the brain system are different. So yeah If dunky was still around and had a cyber deck with VR googles or even just that roll up screen he could hack a host. Not like fastjack or one of those guys, but he certainly could try.
ShadowDragon8685
You know, it occurs to me..

A dragon is wealthy enough to afford all delta if they want.

A Great Dragon has also probably Initiated so many times that Harlequin would say "Initiation? I think he's well past Initiation. He's in third gear, revving down and shifting to fourth."

Given those, I would think that a GD with the inclinatioin could well afford to sacrifice a point of Essense/Magic in order to cram his head full of delta matrixware.
James McMurray
If the Harlequin adventures are a good bases for the oddities of the metaplanes, I would never do that as a dragon. Who wants a clockwork head? smile.gif

It could definitely be done though. It would require a lot of research, since dragon physiology is different than metahuman physiology. I believe someone already mentioned a dragon with a datajack.

Heck, give the guy delta move by wire 3 or 4. smile.gif
ShadowDragon8685
Great Dragon Cybersammie...

Okay, that's terrifying.
Frag-o Delux
There has been plenty of research with adding cyberware to animals. I believe in first edition you needed a kill switch device or something to kill the animal when (not if, but when) it went mad. They had rules of some kind that you made a willpower check of the animal compared to its essence, failure meant it went ape shit. Ill see if I can find the rules in my old SR1 books.

There was a lot of references to stange expriements Dr Kam and Smiling Bandit conversed back and forth about. Like Bloats, flying jellyfish the size of Zepplins. While extremely silly, it was sort of how biotech stuff was thougth about in first edition then let slide till late 3rd edition.
ShadowDragon8685
It seems to me that a floating jellyfish the size of a zepplin is a prime target for SAM activity.
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
It seems to me that a floating jellyfish the size of a zepplin is a prime target for SAM activity.

So are jumbo jets, HCSTs, suborbitals, semiballistics and other zepplins, I dont see your point. The bloats were designed as super cargo carriers.
hobgoblin
hmm, when did the world go from SR to chi-chian?
Witness
QUOTE (Witness)
If the Big D was in a limo then presumably he was openly assuming human form. At what point did he reveal that he could do this?

Hmm.
Either nobody knows, or nobody's saying!
hyzmarca
It might have been a very big limo.



Instead of getting a datajack or using a tortoise setup it would probably be easier for the average GD to just possess a doublt-digit skill decker.
Witness
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
It might have been a very big limo.

It was not "a very big limo"!
Frag-o Delux
I hate to keep refering to an adventure I dont have on hand, but I seem to remember the Big D doing talk shows in human form in the Super Tuesday adventure. Im not sure what happens in the novels, Im not a novel reader. Damn I have to find that book. lol ANyone out there have it readily availible? lol

The pictures (not very good ones) on page 11 and 15 of Portfolio of a Dragon, the pictures on 11 of a news feed show what can be assumed the presidential limo as it passes then explodes, its normal size. The page 15 full page picture shows car parts in the air admist the explosion and they look to be normal sized. And wouldnt a dragon sized Limo be more like a Bergen? Also he leave the Watergate Hotel, I have been there, I dont dont think they are going to modify an "historic" building for the dragon to wander around in natural form to go to a party once. Just above the entrance there are a lot of rooms that would need to be taken out tomake the door big enough. ALso the frint of the hotel is sor tof in a recess with the main street in front actually sitting higher then the front door and wher the limo would be to pick up the president, making a really large vehicle out front of the Watergate not an option. But thats real life, not RPG fiction.

Not sure what chi-chian is, but if you are referring to the bloats thing my Shadowtech (where the Bloats are first discussed) book has a publish date of 1992, thats when I got it. And it has a special thanks to the GenCon 91 breakfast club, so some where around 91-92.

And I agree with hyzmarca, for the average dragon itll be much easier to hire a highly skilled decker to do your dirty work instead of risking insanity to do it themselves.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
There has been plenty of research with adding cyberware to animals. I believe in first edition you needed a kill switch device or something to kill the animal when (not if, but when) it went mad. They had rules of some kind that you made a willpower check of the animal compared to its essence, failure meant it went ape shit. Ill see if I can find the rules in my old SR1 books.

That is no longer a factor as of SR4. I don't know if it changed in one of the SOTA books or is new to the edition.

QUOTE
And I agree with hyzmarca, for the average dragon itll be much easier to hire a highly skilled decker to do your dirty work instead of risking insanity to do it themselves.


I don't know the particulars of the metamagic, but IIRC there is a Possession metamagic that he might be referring to. Taking over their body as opposed to paying their salary.
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 3 2006, 08:11 PM)
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jul 3 2006, 05:07 PM)
There has been plenty of research with adding cyberware to animals. I believe in first edition you needed a kill switch device or something to kill the animal when (not if, but when) it went mad. They had rules of some kind that you made a willpower check of the animal compared to its essence, failure meant it went ape shit. Ill see if I can find the rules in my old SR1 books.

That is no longer a factor as of SR4. I don't know if it changed in one of the SOTA books or is new to the edition.

QUOTE
And I agree with hyzmarca, for the average dragon itll be much easier to hire a highly skilled decker to do your dirty work instead of risking insanity to do it themselves.


I don't know the particulars of the metamagic, but IIRC there is a Possession metamagic that he might be referring to. Taking over their body as opposed to paying their salary.

I havent seen anything in the SOTA books, cause if it was in there, trust me I would know, our GM would have my running suit made of Milkbones. Unless we both missed it, which is doubtful. I seem to remember some fluff that has indicated there have been major strides in creating non-human interfaces. The dolphine matrix trodes seem to spring to mind, but then again that maybe Johnny Mnemonic coming to mind.

I dont play SR4, I like the rules and all, and if it was another game I would play it. But reading the BBB and discussions on this board, Im not giving up characters I like till they release the books to make half their abilities availible. Its just a preference, I dont play DnD d20, but I play a bunch of other d20 games, so its not that I hate the system, just a preference.

Well with dealing with dragons possessing a decker could be magically or out right owning them. smile.gif

But I do believe the subject of possession has to be magically active and out of his body, or pushed out of his body. I dont think a mundane can be possessed, accept by the Loa and the person being possessed must be in the cult and freely willing to be possessed. You cant fake your way into a Hougans church either, as stated in the books.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
I dont play SR4, I like the rules and all, and if it was another game I would play it.

That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard!

Not really. Play what you like. smile.gif And thanks for not feeling like you have to come to the SR4 board and bash it. biggrin.gif
Frag-o Delux
Just checked the Possession rules, yeah only astally active, including dual natured beings can be targeted. And you have to battle them for possession and you can only stay in them for a certain amount of time.

And why would I attack SR4? I was a bit apprehensive when I heard bits and pieces of it, but I wasnt going to insult people for playing it. I didnt like it at all till I sat down and really read the rules and got to know the game. In fact Ill be honest. I actually play SR2 with a heavy dose of SR3. Ill probably steal ideas from SR4 to put into the setting we play in. I dont see the need to crash the enitre matrix to replace it with a wireless matrix. I mean I helped build the new GSM network cellphones use to give you all those new internet features and IMing on the go. We didnt take all the old stuff out of place and knock out all cell phone towers for 5 years to finish the project. In fact if you go into a large amount of cell phone huts today there is still a lot of old equipement in the huts. They are just now slowly taking the old stuff out as people move to newer phones. I know it more then just the matrix, it has to do with the metaplot as a whole, which is something our group used but only paid lip service to. Our characters were just cogs in the machine, the high level stuff was left to who ever wanted it. None of us have met a dragon, or had dinner with damien knight.

EH, I have quirks, and one of them is Im only going to go through so many editions of a game till I stop because of lack of interest or the company makes enough changes to the game I dont feel connected to it anymore. Which Fanpro did with SR4 and Wizards did with DnD. But like I said I dont play d20 DnD, just like ADnD 2nd edition more. I do play Star Wars d20, Modern d20 and trying to get a game of Sidewinder d20 going. If Fanpro came out with a game based on the SR4 rules and it was something other then SR and it was something Id be interested in I would probably play it.

You also have to realise, and I dont know how old you guys are, its hard enough to get my group together monthly to play (kids, jobs, and all that shit), let alone get them all together and learn a new game, then try to play it, spending more time debugging and houseruling a new game till we are satisfied with it and then get down to playing. Its also hard to talk a group of people into giving up money they may need for gas ($3.08 a gallon here) to get to work and spend it on a new set of books for a game we already play.

Be assured Im not going to pop into the SR4 boards and randomly bash stuff because I dont like the game, I may stop in and see what rules are what (seeing that I only have the BBB) and see whats worth stealing and bringing into our cobbled together SR game. smile.gif It is funny though seeing the same rules debates like realistic lifting rules being discussed and the same basic things being said that was said when SR3 was released.

hyzmarca
The Astral Gateway power can be used to force astral combat for the purpose of possession. It is sually a Free Spirit power but I'm sure some GDs somewhere have adapted it into a metamagic and those that havn't probably know a Free Spirit or two,

Neverthe ess, you can't ignore the vast community of magically active deckers.
Frag-o Delux
I know its more then probable in this day, but the dragon would also need the high skill to do the actual hacking. The possesser doesnt have access tot he possessies skills. SO the dragon might as well just practice and learn, build a bleeding edge deck, then possess his secetary with a datajack. Or a mage with a datajack and not worry about the gateway power.
HalloranElder
It's mentioned somewhere (and I can't for the life of me remember where) that a Dragon can "hitch a ride" with a decker when they go into the matrix. That would most likely be how the Big D was posting on Shadowland at the time.

I'll try and find the source and quote it here later.
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