Hi Brahm! Nice to see you respond to "pestering" you by pestering the entire thread. And oh yeah: Hi Brahm!

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My post earlier about runs paying in karma resulting in runs focused on karma got me thinking.

If a wealth system is designed to get rid of the desire to "run, get money, run again, get money again, repeat as necessary" then what stops the game from moving on to another monotany of "work, reward, work, reward?" Basically, if a player is the type that wants to focus on risk vs. reward, he'll most likely focus on it no matter what the reward being offered is.

For instance, if goods are negotiated through the Johnson instead of purchased with run money, the likely situation is "negotiate, run, negotiate, run." If runs are rewarded with information regarding a larger plotline, the likely situation is "run, get intel, run, get intel."

Can a wealth system be done such that it avoids this problem, without removing the idea that shadowrunners are people that do dangerous jobs for other people in order to get things from those people (usually physical things that help them survive and/or prosper as runners)?

Bye! By the way, if you're feeling curious, do a count of on topic posts for you and I since page 3 (where your repetitions began). You can't really complain that someone is throttling a thread when you're more off topic than they are.

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

It seems to me that the only way to remove the run, reward, run, reward mentality, is to either take the rewards away completely, or give them regardless. One solution for this is to make them into company men, or do a LS campaign, or Doc Wagon, or something else where it is their job to do something and they get a regular salary regardless of how much or how little they do whatever it is their job to do. Of course, the problem here is loss of motivation. They have to have some sort of independent goals to give them a reason to care. Justice and fighting corruption might make the basis for a LS campaign, but in general it's that reward system that you're trying to get away from that forms the primary motivation of the players/characters.

If I put my group into a Lone Star campaign they'd turn into a bunch of Vic Mackes.

Even changing to a "justice vs. corruption" campaign becomes "run, pat self on back, run again" setup. The reward changes to something intangible, but it's still there. I guess I just think that rewards are such an integral part of practically every game that trying to design a system to avoid one particular type is a bit futile. Now, a wealth system designed to make player to money interaction easier and/or more balanced is a great idea.

Well obviously there's got to be some kind of reward system, tangible or intangible, or else why would anyone play? There's always a reward to anything you do, on some level, or you wouldn't do it. We're big dumb animals that way.
Imagine:
GM: Okay, we're going to play FuckURun. I give you a mission, you fail, and then I poke you in the eye with this stick. Sound like fun?

I thought the point of this was to find ways of getting campaigns more focused on the less tangible rewards like character development and plot advancement, and less focused on the crunchy rewards like money and karma.
Hmmm, I guess maybe I just don't know what the point of this thread is, and should just stay out of it. In my defense, it's getting kind of hard for me to sift the wheat from the chaff in this thread.

Moon-Hawk, I see what you're saying, but I think you might be stuck on "money is the only reward in SR". If the players are more interested in story development, then meeting that specific person you've always wanted to meet, or hitting Renraku where it hurts even if you have to do the run pro bono, or finally getting that Westwind Turbo (which you still could, doing what's being loosely discussed in this thread) becomes much more important than the fact that you made 7,500 on the last run.

It doesn't take away the reward you get, it just shifts it from purely monetary (which some of us feel isn't really enough to motivate an ongoing game by itself) to more story-based. It's like how reading a good book is its own reward.

Granted, it's not going to work for every player or ever group. But when you've got the right group for it, a system such as those being tossed around lets you focus on the story (stories) at hand, rather than constantly trying to track character wealth, run payments, gear costs, etc.

(Nice sig btw. In my last game, that was the gunslinger adept's centering chant. And talk about a series that was its own reward. Well, minus the ending. )

Huh? Wha? I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm arguing against money being the only reward. I am 100% for the intangible rewards of the story. Sure, money is nice, but I prefer motivations that don't result in my characters retiring after a couple profitable runs.
I was arguing against James suggesting that intangible rewards lead to the same mindless cycle of run-reward-run-reward, but re-reading his post I'm not sure he was saying that in the first place.

Yes and no. When the rewards are intangibles that drive the story forward you still have "run, reward, run" but it's done in a way that the rewards don't necessarily look like rewards. They still have to be tere, because people don't play characters that risk their lives for no reason. Even if the character is just out acting insane, the player is doing it because it's what he wants to do and he gets something out of it.

Um, good then. So I guess we all agree.

No! Must argue!!!

Anyone got an updated version of a wealth system to post? There's been a couple of attempts made followed by a lot of talk. Has anyone updated their version to account for that, perhaps with a bit of playtesting?

I think you're right, MH. Sorry about that. I had eggs on the stove while checking DS earlier. Reading fast doesn't always equal reading well.