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X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Wolfshade)
O.K. guys , I know I'm asking to get roasted, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. The best way to do a SR game and stick to the, RPG system, that I can figure is to turn base the combat built like an UPDATED Fallout game. Just my 2cents.

That or the Temple of Elemental Evil engine. Best implementation of rules from a Pnp RPG I've ever seen. Too bad it was rather bland if you've played the campaign before, since there is no GM.
eidolon
Brahm, you're missing a lot of the point by focusing on the fact that as an FPS, the game isn't that bad.

Nothing you've said changes what our fundamental disappointment is based on. It's a run of the mill FPS, with vague, poorly written references to a rewritten history, and a couple of hacked together nods to the game Shadowrun.

And then theres the question, "why an FPS"? Shadowrun, since its creation, has been an RPG. You might like to keep bringing up the fact that yes, there is combat, but to most of us, combat isn't the only part of Shadowrun that we would have liked to see in a video game. So a SR video game that only allows for the (in some campaigns very negligible) combat aspect of Shadowrun? Weak and lacking.

One look across the CRPG spectrum shows that there is so much that could have been (could be) done with a Shadowrun game. Arcanum, NWN, even WoW (although I personally despise MMORPGs) show us that there's no reason that a SR CRPG couldn't/wouldn't work, and work well.

So you can go ahead and defend the MS game as a decent FPS with vague references to Shadowrun. That's cool. It doesn't and won't change the reason(s) we're disappointed and angry.
eidolon
QUOTE (Brahm)
Great idea! Make it like all the rest! Whooo hoooo! Only, you know, you have to redo it all. So expending lots of effort to make a "knockoff". question.gif


Are you just pretending to know anything about programming? I'm thinking I know the answer. I'm also coming to the conclusion that you're only in this thread for the sheer sake of argument.
mfb
QUOTE (Brahm)
Great idea! Make it like all the rest! Whooo hoooo! Only, you know, you have to redo it all. So expending lots of effort to make a "knockoff".

okay. i'm officially calling this 'discussion' over. you're talking, right here, about a concept that has been around since Elf and Dwarf were character classes, and claiming that "making it like all the rest" will turn it into a "knockoff". it's a fucking spherical ball of flame, for god's sake.

you say you're in a position to know what you're talking about. i call bullshit. there are two possibilities: 1) you're lying; 2) you're utterly incompetent. either way, i'm done talking to you on this subject.
Brahm
QUOTE (eidolon @ Jul 19 2006, 12:22 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm)
Great idea! Make it like all the rest! Whooo hoooo! Only, you know, you have to redo it all. So expending lots of effort to make a "knockoff". question.gif


Are you just pretending to know anything about programming? I'm thinking I know the answer.

If you think the answer is 'Yes, a number of years of experience in various aspects of developing a commercial release program from programming, through testing, design, 3rd tier technical support, and conducting formal user education courses' then you are thinking right.

Otherwise you are probably about as close as you are with this.
QUOTE
I'm also coming to the conclusion that you're only in this thread for the sheer sake of argument.

Which is to say, wrong.
Jrayjoker


QUOTE (eidolon @ Jul 19 2006, 12:22 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm)
Great idea! Make it like all the rest! Whooo hoooo! Only, you know, you have to redo it all. So expending lots of effort to make a "knockoff". question.gif


Are you just pretending to know anything about programming? I'm thinking I know the answer.

If you think the answer is 'Yes, a number of years of experience in various aspects of developing a commercial release program from programming, through testing, design, 3rd tier technical support, and conducting formal user education courses' then you are thinking right.

Otherwise you are probably about as close as you are with this.
QUOTE
I'm also coming to the conclusion that you're only in this thread for the sheer sake of argument.

--------------------

Let me guess, you were in sales?
Brahm
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Let me guess, you were in sales?

Oddly enough that is the one job I never did. smile.gif
Jrayjoker
LOL.

By the way, I meant nothing by that, I just thought it was a humorous way to defuse a threadbombing campaign.
Brahm
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Jul 19 2006, 01:04 PM)
LOL.

By the way, I meant nothing by that, I just thought it was a humorous way to defuse a threadbombing campaign.

Ya, well I wish I had had interest in sales. Having a job where you expense hookers on a CC, even if it was just for someone else, is just too cool. rotfl.gif Sadly I don't really have much interest in pure sales.

EDIT: In no small part because of the prospect of attempting to sell something to a nutball customer like mfb. sleepy.gif "I want this, that, and the 1001 other things some of which are contradictory. Oh, and by the way I'm going to crap on you head when I get it because it's like the 2nd coming of the Edsel with a price tag that I'm going to bitch about because I it was really easy for me to nebulously toss out features, some of which are in other somewhat related products. And I want it all to work like the paper system we have now using the same process, but the process has to be better, and yeah, the same. Now read my mind, dipshit and get it right!"

At the end of the day I was always thankful for those folks that were on the frontline for that. I got more than enough of it myself in customer support as it was.
X-Kalibur
Having done some programming myself, albeit not much, just some stuff in C++, it is quite difficult to comprehend the work involved in "ripping off what doom did". Especially since you would be working in a different environment than it did. The basic coding of it? Maybe not so difficult, but once you have to start adding in the physics, sound, graphics, suddenly you're tacking that much more dev time onto a game.
mfb
the thing is, X-Kalibur, that it's no more difficult that anything else they've done with this game. it's no more complicated than firearms attacks, or grenades, or healing trees. moreover, fireballs (and other attack spells) are an established part of Shadowrun. dwarves which dispel magic in a certain radius are not. so, instead of getting game elements which are actually a part of SR, we're getting stuff that the devs just made up.
Brahm
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 19 2006, 01:32 PM)
the thing is, X-Kalibur, that it's no more difficult that anything else they've done with this game. it's no more complicated than firearms attacks, or grenades, or healing trees. moreover, fireballs (and other attack spells) are an established part of Shadowrun. dwarves which dispel magic in a certain radius are not. so, instead of getting game elements which are actually a part of SR, we're getting stuff that the devs just made up.

We'll have our people look into that. So how about lunch Wednesday....at the strippers?


Nope, that job just ain't for me. frown.gif
James McMurray
Can someone confirm whether the game has grenades or not, and whether the scenery responds to player actions (missed attacks primarily)?

I can understand from a flavor standpoint why they left offensive magic out. It's been done a bajillion times over, and when you have attack magic you have a large focus on casters that are just nukers. Removing the ability to nuke shifts the flavor of casters.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (mfb)
the thing is, X-Kalibur, that it's no more difficult that anything else they've done with this game. it's no more complicated than firearms attacks, or grenades, or healing trees. moreover, fireballs (and other attack spells) are an established part of Shadowrun. dwarves which dispel magic in a certain radius are not. so, instead of getting game elements which are actually a part of SR, we're getting stuff that the devs just made up.

Fireballs are really more a D&D domain (along with Lightning bolts). Manabolts/balls, stunbolts/balls, powerbolts/balls are the big SR ones.
mfb
i'd argue that fireballs are just as much a part of SR as they are D&D, since SR (and RPGs in general) took a lot of their base assumptions from D&D. for instance, stunball fairly closely mimics the effects of a D&D sleep spell--a fact that is even referred to in the SR3 spell description. 'sides, the fireball thing is just an example standing in for offensive spells in general.
Cleremond
Back to the topic at hand.....

If I was in charge of developing a new Shadowrun RPG...I would higher all the guys that worked on Vampire: Bloodlines from Troika.

Vampire: Bloodlines had to be the coolest story driven FPS RPG I've ever played, despite its bug problems. The only only game I've played that could challenge it as the best single player FPS RPG Hybrid game EVER is TES4: Oblivion.

The Haunted Hotel level in Vampire: Bloodlines is the single best piece of scripted gaming EVER in video game history. Period. The NPC interactions were brilliant, very well voice acted, the story was compelling, and the atmosphere immersive.

The guys who worked on that game were VERY passionate about the source material and remained truthful to it from the ground up.

That's what Shadowrun needs. People who are passionate about the source material developing it.

I don't think Shadowrun would work very as an MMO. Its much better left as a single player experience IMHO. But, it could be done as an MMO, but it would suffer from the same problems as any other MMO out there. Winey griefers, gold botting, item harvesting, ebaying, a requirement that you have to group with others, all that crap.

Personally, I think the Shadowrun experience would be best as an Action RPG in the vein of Deus Ex, Vampire: Bloodlines, and System Shock 2.
Platinum
Who cares if they have grenades. Looking at the tree of life they have particle effects. The fireball will just be a sphere that races off spawning particles. Brahm stop being a troll here ... you are just being difficult to increase your post count.

Long and short of it ... we want something that looks like shadowrun and the incorporates genre elements like trolls, mana balls, story background, and cyberware.

So fasa has 1 of these 4 elements. Trolls. They break the most basic cannon rules in shadowrun, like teleporting and resurrection. Why ??? because they are trying to stick a square peg in a round hole. We don't care about stats and karma, and skill ratings, we want something that looks and feels like shadowrun .... cyberware and magic.


They are short changing the genre. They would be better off making some kind of mutant game.
Platinum
QUOTE (Cleremond)
Back to the topic at hand.....

If I was in charge of developing a new Shadowrun RPG...I would higher all the guys that worked on Vampire: Bloodlines from Troika.

Vampire: Bloodlines had to be the coolest story driven FPS RPG I've ever played, despite its bug problems. The only only game I've played that could challenge it as the best single player FPS RPG Hybrid game EVER is TES4: Oblivion.

The Haunted Hotel level in Vampire: Bloodlines is the single best piece of scripted gaming EVER in video game history. Period. The NPC interactions were brilliant, very well voice acted, the story was compelling, and the atmosphere immersive.

The guys who worked on that game were VERY passionate about the source material and remained truthful to it from the ground up.

That's what Shadowrun needs. People who are passionate about the source material developing it.

I don't think Shadowrun would work very as an MMO. Its much better left as a single player experience IMHO. But, it could be done as an MMO, but it would suffer from the same problems as any other MMO out there. Winey griefers, gold botting, item harvesting, ebaying, a requirement that you have to group with others, all that crap.

Personally, I think the Shadowrun experience would be best as an Action RPG in the vein of Deus Ex, Vampire: Bloodlines, and System Shock 2.

If you want a cyberpunk MMO ... play neocron.
X-Kalibur
Actually, last I checked they had cyberware as well.


ugh, Neocron. Better off with Anarchy Online.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mfb)
'sides, the fireball thing is just an example standing in for offensive spells in general.

Which, I should add, isn't a very good example—the different spells all have varying amounts of (mostly art-related) complexity involved. For Fireball, you need all kinds of pretty fire. For Toxic Wave, you have to figure out a non-silly-looking way for all that sludge to kinda vanish at about the edge of the AOE. For Stunball, you could legitimately just have people fall down inside the radius (or take stun damage, as appropriate). The first is… well, I'm not going to say it's hard, but it isn't no work. The second one could be hard. The third is utterly trivial.

~J
James McMurray
My point about the grenade is that it makes coding a fireball easy. Unless that tree deals damage in a radius, it's not a fireball and would require some work to shoehorn it into a fireball form. Without knowing how it's programmed I have no idea how much work it would actually take.

Cleremond: I agree completely about Vampire Bloodlines. The hotel was the only sequence in a game ever to have me jump out of my seat. I've heard similar things about Phear (Fear?) but haven't gotten a chance to play it.
Brahm
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 19 2006, 01:58 PM)
Brahm stop being a troll here ... you are just being difficult to increase your post count.

How about you give your worn, tired stock line "stop trolling" a rest for once? Because it never had any accuracy and long any bit of meaning it ever had some time back.
QUOTE
Long and short of it ... we want something that looks like shadowrun and the incorporates genre elements like trolls, mana balls, story background, and cyberware.

Um, cyberware too. So that makes 3. nyahnyah.gif Of course the the story background is part of what is sending the Canon Kings into such a frenzy. Because it only roughly matches the SR timeline and setting. That is something mfb is right about, that could be made somewhat closer even at this point. But likely not close enough for the Canon Kings because it is going to deviate, would require among other things that every elf in the game to be a spike baby, and offically create the existance of spike dwarves.
Brahm
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The third is utterly trivial.

That I could end up being the toughest. The problem is what is the colour of stun? Because you need something visual somewhere. Running along and you just flop over? Even with sound, that ain't going to fly Ricco.
Platinum
You misunderstood me.
I was talking about the tree having particle effects. Particles would be a class effect that can be attached to any object. Bullets, weapons, trees.

1 grenades are area affect, fireball isn't ... it is a combat spell. 1 target only.
Hellblast is a different story.

Short and simple ... all of the ground work for fireballs have been developed before and would be part of the engine they are building the game with.

Platinum
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 19 2006, 01:58 PM)
Brahm stop being a troll here ... you are just being difficult to increase your post count.

How about you give your worn, tired stock line "stop trolling" a rest for once? Because it never had any accuracy and long any bit of meaning it ever had some time back.
QUOTE
Long and short of it ... we want something that looks like shadowrun and the incorporates genre elements like trolls, mana balls, story background, and cyberware.

Um, cyberware too. So that makes 3. nyahnyah.gif Of course the the story background is part of what is sending the Canon Kings into such a frenzy. Because it only roughly matches the SR timeline and setting. That is something mfb is right about, that could be made somewhat closer even at this point. But likely not close enough for the Canon Kings because it is going to deviate, would require among other things that every elf in the game to be a spike baby, and offically create the existance of spike dwarves.

How about being a dick and shut the hell up. Good enough for you?

It is more star wars or 20 other genres than shadowrun.


James McMurray
I believe that when people are saying fireball they mean hellblast, as it's been described a few times as a ball of fire, or likened to D&D fireballs. Fireballs of the "works like a bullet" variety would be easy to implement in any game that already had guns.

Do we know what engine they're using?
James McMurray
I misunderstood the particle comment. I was looking at it from a non-code perspective of graphical particles.
Brahm
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 19 2006, 02:35 PM)
1 grenades are area affect, fireball isn't ... it is a combat spell.  1 target only.
Hellblast is a different story.

Umm, that's Flamethrower. Fireball is a ball...of fire. In an area a number of meters across. At least in 3rd and 4th.

QUOTE
Short and simple ... all of the ground work for fireballs have been developed before and would be part of the engine they are building the game with.

The groundwork isn't the issue. There is a long ways to go from groundwork to fitting it into the game. Being able to attach particle effects is only a start of it. You also have make those effects, and make them cool takes a lot of polishing. Then you have to figure out an interface that is smooth. Very smooth because this is a twitch game. They'd have factor it into essense expendatures because that's how they throttle magic. Magic currently is tightly throttled for reasons such as keeping the worm-holing to a dull roar, and limiting of implants.

Oh, and casting and shot traveling animations. There is, or should be, a lot of work put into that to get it to look polished during the game.

You only get so many things to implement. It is prudent to spend that on spells that do things that weapons don't really do, avoiding the overlap. Otherwise you end up with a direct damage heavy game, typically leading to a lower variety of stategies.

EDIT This last part is what I was really trying to get across to you mfb when you decided to throw your hands in the air like you just didn't care. Unfortunately I did convey it rather poorly there. Sorry about that.
Platinum
As a programmer I realize it is not that hard. Throwing a fireball is just simply making an instance of a class that will exist in the engine. Now determining if you have the ability to throw it, is quite simple as they outlined it. There will be a mana meter, if you take drain your mana meter goes down. (more of a mana point system than drain)

Its an FPS ... it is more likely that they will have 5-10 different archtypes that you can select from; like choosing a engineer/soldier/leutenant/medic in wolfenstien. Don't get exited about building your own character. They "cyberware" they are showing are going to be more like power-up than embedded cyberware. You will get wings/ enhanced movement/ different vision modes, enhanced targetting etc.

In second, fireball was a combat spell ... flamethrower was manipulation.
Brahm
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 19 2006, 03:07 PM)
As a programmer I realize it is not that hard.  Throwing a fireball is just simply making an instance of a class that will exist in the engine.  Now determining if you have the ability to throw it, is quite simple as they outlined it.  There will be a mana meter, if you take drain your mana meter goes down.  (more of a mana point system than drain)

But you have to figure out the damage balance per mana click (time effectively). In a multiplayer FPS like this balance is extremely important. Certainly far more important and to tighter tolerances than in pen and paper, for comparison. Since this is a computer game you also don't get the same sort of GM control to compensate for balance design flaws. Although usually whoever sets up the server does get a bit of control customizing the game, usually it is pretty crude control via some toggle options and such.

The play of the game revolves around damage/defense over time, and when you put it out there it is like a 1000 of the hardest core powergamers you can imagine stop by your house to play at your table. It has to be extremely robust.
QUOTE
Its an FPS ...  it is more likely that they will have 5-10 different archtypes that you can select from; like choosing a engineer/soldier/leutenant/medic in wolfenstien. 

Actually no, you buy implants and spells, along with firearms, piecemeal between rounds. As far as I can tell all avatars are potentially awakened, but they don't come default with any spells.
QUOTE
Don't get exited about building your own character.  They "cyberware" they are showing are going to be more like power-up than embedded cyberware.  You will get wings/ enhanced movement/ different vision modes, enhanced targetting etc.

Yes, those are the kinds of cyberware implants they have in the game. No it's not an extensive list, for the same reason they don't have 30 different spells implemented.
QUOTE
In second, fireball was a combat spell ... flamethrower was manipulation.

Fireball is Elemental Manipulation too. Turn to page 197 of your SR3 BBB, lefthand column. No worries, I forget that sometimes too.
Platinum
I don't play 3rd. Magic changes make me cry. (still on second ed)

I had a mud for several years, so I am well aware of damage calculations and exceptions. Also you can change these in any game that allows modding. It really isn't that hard to get right.

I saw that you can buy "cyberware and weapons" between rounds, and heard the strategy of not buying certain weapons at the beginning, but I am wondering if they will still have archtypes.
Brahm
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 19 2006, 03:50 PM)
I don't play 3rd.  Magic changes make me cry. (still on second ed)

That's where I thought Hellfire might be from, I didn't think that was in 3rd which is why I tossed those edition numbers in. Terminology gap filled...as long as you stop calling Flamethrower a Fireball. wink.gif
QUOTE
I had a mud for several years, so I am well aware of damage calculations and exceptions.  Also you can change these in any game that allows modding.  It really isn't that hard to get right.

So you send the game out and expect people to mod it themselves to get it right? See, that's where the big difference from commercial software comes in. This is a ship it in working order to start with, or you really piss people off. And they should be pissed off. This is true even moreso when you start shipping to consoles, because the culture around PCs is a little more lax even if it is still crappy practice.

Oh, and no mods. Primarily because of crossplatform.
QUOTE
I saw that you can buy "cyberware and weapons" between rounds, and heard the strategy of not buying certain weapons at the beginning, but I am wondering if they will still have archtypes.

That would be metahuman types, which sets your magic level recovery rate, rapid healing rate, and health pool (effectively Body). The rapid healing is Elves only, in my books that's way wierder than the Dwarves magic resistance, to compensate for their really low Body. Might be a few other things too, not sure.
Cleremond
Wow, you guys are really going at it.

biggrin.gif
X-Kalibur
Actually, this is rather tame.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 19 2006, 03:07 PM)
As a programmer I realize it is not that hard.  Throwing a fireball is just simply making an instance of a class that will exist in the engine.  Now determining if you have the ability to throw it, is quite simple as they outlined it.  There will be a mana meter, if you take drain your mana meter goes down.  (more of a mana point system than drain)

But you have to figure out the damage balance per mana click (time effectively). In a multiplayer FPS like this balance is extremely important. Certainly far more important and to tighter tolerances than in pen and paper, for comparison. Since this is a computer game you also don't get the same sort of GM control to compensate for balance design flaws. Although usually whoever sets up the server does get a bit of control customizing the game, usually it is pretty crude control via some toggle options and such.

The play of the game revolves around damage/defense over time, and when you put it out there it is like a 1000 of the hardest core powergamers you can imagine stop by your house to play at your table. It has to be extremely robust.


The same is true for any weapon.

Brahm
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
Actually, this is rather tame.

That's what I was thinking too. : love.gif I don't see a problem with Platinum's last couple posts at all.

However I did just notice this one, a bit busy with other things in RL now. I mean Star Wars? WTF? Yah, like in Star Wars you have anything like implant/essense trade-off. nyahnyah.gif
mfb
indeed, hyzmarca. like i keep saying, combat spells are no more complex than any other part of the game. adding fireball--or stunball, or powerbolt, or whatever--would make the dev's job a bit longer, but not much more difficult.
Brahm
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 19 2006, 04:51 PM)
The same is true for any weapon.

Absolutely. Outside of their impact/interaction with magic reserves. Which is why minimizing the number of weapons by avoiding overlap is also important. Each weapon should have a markedly different use or strong points. For example having both a Beretta 92 and Glock 17, two 9mm handguns with similar specs, in the weapon list would be bad.

Functionality overlap is waste. Waste is time and money and often leads to a poor product through clutter.
Platinum
QUOTE (Brahm)
So you send the game out and expect people to mod it themselves to get it right? See, that's where the big difference from commercial software comes in. This is a ship it in working order to start with, or you really piss people off. And they should be pissed off. This is true even moreso when you start shipping to consoles, because the culture around PCs is a little more lax even if it is still crappy practice.

Oh, and no mods. Primarily because of crossplatform.
QUOTE
I saw that you can buy "cyberware and weapons" between rounds, and heard the strategy of not buying certain weapons at the beginning, but I am wondering if they will still have archtypes.

That would be metahuman types, which sets your magic level recovery rate, rapid healing rate, and health pool (effectively Body). The rapid healing is Elves only, in my books that's way wierder than the Dwarves magic resistance, to compensate for their really low Body. Might be a few other things too, not sure.

That is not what I was said. I will try it another way.

I was saying that game balance is actually quite easy. You work through the numbers on paper. These guys are all veterans, so they have already have the numbers down, then you just tweak. I was not saying that the game should be modded, I was saying that modders tweak the numbers, and that it is very common and easy to balance.

The weapon/damage classes are well written, and have many parameters like, weapon speed, rate of fire, accuracy, trajectory, damage strength, damage radius, damage falloff rate ... etc etc etc. You just change the numbers.

I agree with you on metatypes.

What is looks like with the game, is that they already had game play ideas figured out, before they even looked at how to "skin" or "package" the game. I think people are frustrated that so much of the shadowrun world has been completely ignored as well. Matrix, astral, and conguring. I know they are thinking of adding features in subsequent releases, but it is unlikely, with how volitile the game industry is.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 19 2006, 04:51 PM)
The same is true for any weapon.

Absolutely. Outside of their impact/interaction with magic reserves. Which is why minimizing the number of weapons by avoiding overlap is also important. Each weapon should have a markedly different use or strong points. For example having both a Beretta 92 and Glock 17, two 9mm handguns with similar specs, in the weapon list would be bad.

Functionality overlap is waste. Waste is time and money and often leads to a poor product through clutter.

Is that so? No, I very much disagree because there is one thing you are missing, ammo pool. A 9mm, .40 pistol, and a .38 may seem wasteful from one perspective but the different ammunitions provide another element of strategy. The fact that mana pool is split between all spells provides a great deal of strategy because you could use it offensivly or defensivly and there are tradeoffs to both.

There is also the quetion of hitscan vs. projectiles. Realisticly, all guns except lasers should be projectile weapons. Direct Combat spells, would be best implemented as hitscan attacks. The difference provides a great deal of stratagy since it is easier to hit an enemy using a hitscan weapon than it is to hit using a projectile weapon.
Brahm
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 19 2006, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Jul 19 2006, 05:02 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 19 2006, 04:51 PM)
The same is true for any weapon.

Absolutely. Outside of their impact/interaction with magic reserves. Which is why minimizing the number of weapons by avoiding overlap is also important. Each weapon should have a markedly different use or strong points. For example having both a Beretta 92 and Glock 17, two 9mm handguns with similar specs, in the weapon list would be bad.

Functionality overlap is waste. Waste is time and money and often leads to a poor product through clutter.

Is that so? No, I very much disagree because there is one thing you are missing, ammo pool. A 9mm, .40 pistol, and a .38 may seem wasteful from one perspective but the different ammunitions provide another element of strategy.

The example I gave is two 9mm handguns.

But I think you are lost here, because the example you are giving is diverting focus. I very much doubt they have ammo caliber juggling without marked performance difference between weapons.

Mostly because that sort of thing would tend to divert from the focus of game of this pace. Not that ammo management is out, but if the difference between two weapons is not functioning specs but ammunition size you then need to have different ammunition sources during the round for that to be relavent. And those sources need to be a key factor in the game strategy.

Not saying they couldn't do that, but it is very doubtful. They already have a level location stategy, and if you put that sort of resource point in the level with the idea of it being important you likely don't want to have it avoided or negated by them grabbing a different weapon. To compensate for that they'd have to double up all weapon classes. eek.gif That seems a rather inefficent way to bring in a level location strategy.
QUOTE
There is also the quetion of hitscan vs. projectiles. Realisticly, all guns except lasers should be projectile weapons.

Realistically this is a game. With the distances involved the 1000ft./sec of handguns and 2500 ft/sec or more of long rifles are typically approximated to a hitscan with no tragectory curves. I'm not expecting a borderline firearms simulator like Operation Flashpoint. Although you could do a Flamethrower/Fileball as a projectile, AKA rocket launcher. But it's still damage centric, and while maybe it'll look cooll it is still eating in the utility spell list design resources.
Nidhogg
But nobody would even care about the developers making 'artistic alterations' to the game canon if the changes they were making wasn't incredibly fucking stupid. People want fireballs because they are cool, and because the gameplay differences between playing a cyber-monster and a combat mage would be intriguing. People don't want mystical healing trees because it's about the stupidest fucking idea ever concieved. Plus, who the fuck wants to play a game where the object is to capture a magical stick? That's just dumb. The changes that they did make to canon seems more out of spite to the fanbase than anything else. Changing everything was completely not necessary. The big evil corporation could have just as easily been Aztechnology, or Ares, or Renraku. Making one up adds nothing to the setting, and niether does the removal of actual shadowrunners. Come on, if they are going to keep anything, it should be the game's namesake. I can totaly understand gutting shit out for gameplay considerations, but reinventing the entire fucking world, and then making the game mechanics stupid is just FASA Interactive pulling a Uwe Boll.
Kagetenshi
Magical sticks aren't dumb, just look at Excalibat.

~J
Brahm
QUOTE (Nidhogg @ Jul 20 2006, 12:12 AM)
But nobody would even care about the developers making 'artistic alterations' to the game canon if the changes they were making wasn't incredibly fucking stupid.

Of course they would. Hell they are. Because, hey, it's 'incredibly fucking stupid' to have elves only born that way while the trolls transformed after birth. Given that that is a very subjective judgement. That is of course just an example. I use it as an example because it is one of a number of things about Shadowrun lore that always struck me as goofy. It would likely strike a lot more Shadowrun players as goofy if it was a distinction that was actually more widely known among casual SR gamers, which it isn't.

Hey, I happen to think it would be 'incredibily fucking stupid' to spend limited design resources on creating more ways to do direct ranged damage instead of creating interesting utility combat spells for that combat mage to go up against a cybered up opponent.
QUOTE
The big evil corporation could have just as easily been Aztechnology, or Ares, or Renraku.

Curiously in at least one of the previous computer games, the 'good' one, they don't even call the corp that appears to be Renraku 'Renraku', and that game was set in the part of the timeline where the corp definately existed under that name. Which isn't the case here. That's back when FASA still owned and controlled FASA Interactive. Go figure.
SL James
Renraku exists in the FPS. Who do you think makes the gliders? For that matter, so does Fuchi (the cybervision) and Ares (an SMG).

Of course, Renraku didn't exist as such in 2021. But that's a minor triviality.

BTW, it really seems like the massive megacorp, RNA, is, for all intents and purposes, the good guys. That's just awesomely awesome.
Nidhogg
QUOTE (Brahm)
Of course they would.  Hell they are.  Because, hey, it's 'incredibly fucking stupid' to have elves only born that way while the trolls transformed after birth.  Given that that is a very subjective judgement. That is of course just an example. I use it as an example because it is one of a number of things about Shadowrun lore that always struck me as goofy.  It would likely strike a lot more Shadowrun players as goofy if it was a distinction that was actually more widely known among casual SR gamers, which it isn't.


There is a huge difference between quirky, arbirary game fluff, and ill-concieved stupidity. Goblinzation is of the quirky fluff variety, Superman dying of cancer is ill-cocieved stupidity. Only one of those ideas got beaten by the retcon stick and is being ignored by fans worldwide because of blatent idiocy.

QUOTE
Hey, I happen to think it would be 'incredibily fucking stupid' to spend limited design resources on creating more ways to do direct ranged damage instead of creating interesting utility combat spells for that combat mage to go up against a cybered up opponent.


TREES! You summon trees. Tree summoning! What the fuck is interesting about that? NOTHING! This shit is exactly why I compare FASA Interactive to hacks like Boll- they are either detached from reality, or just plain hate the existing fanbase, and do stupid things to attract a new one.

QUOTE
Curiously in at least one of the previous computer games, the 'good' one, they don't even call the corp that appears to be Renraku 'Renraku', and that game was set in the part of the timeline where the corp definately existed under that name. Which isn't the case here. That's back when FASA still owned and controlled FASA Interactive. Go figure.


Oh, mean the terrible, terrible SNES game that everyone hates? The SNES game is a perfect example of a very poorly designed game engine coupled with annoying fetch-quests and tedious 'puzzles' that followed no ryme or reason.
torzzzzz
noo, you can't turn something like SR into a pooter game, how do you get the whole unpredictability of a group of people trying to suss something out? I mean It can't be a first person shooter?

hmm would have to reserve judgement, they did this to Cthuthu and it was rubbish!

torz x wink.gif
Brahm
QUOTE (Nidhogg @ Jul 20 2006, 04:40 AM)
Oh, mean the terrible, terrible SNES game that everyone hates? The SNES game is a perfect example of a very poorly designed game engine coupled with annoying fetch-quests and tedious 'puzzles' that followed no ryme or reason.

Oh I don't like that game. However your claim that everyone hates it is, well, 'incredibly fucking' incorret. Amazing as that may seem.

Also amazingly I'm fine with the tree of life. They needed some visual for a stationary healing point. They apparently are going with a jungle motif, having used vines for the Barrier type spell. At worst I'd call it a bit goofy. Like shamanic masks. wink.gif
QUOTE (torzzzzz)
noo, you can't turn something like SR into a pooter game, how do you get the whole unpredictability of a group of people trying to suss something out?

In large part CRPGs are esentially book-like in nature. The sandbox style, that costs a fortune to create, is a little more flexibile in that it allows you to at least shuffle the order of the prescripted quests. So they are more like a collection of related short stories. Neither is really the experience of a P&P RPG unless you playing at a table where the GM has prescripted all the events.

So would someone want to play such a thing? Maybe it's the moving graphics instead of the handdrawn stationary art? Maybe it's the same people that would like to read a SR book, but at 3 times the cost? Sadly CRPG writing is usually of remarkably poor quality. Or maybe it is people that like, or don't mind being players in heavily railroaded games? Or people that just can't find other players to get a game together at the time they want to play, or ever?
Platinum
I for one, don't have a problem with RNA ... The reason is that it is set in Brazil. RNA could be a new AA or AAA corp that is looking to capitalize on something down there (maybe funded/backed by a dragon). I would have preferred Aztenchnology of course.

As for the healing tree and summon tree, those are just totally unnecessary. Why not have a member of your team have healing spells, just like shadowrun. You can have biotech stations, or deployed biokits instead, which would have been a better option.

Summoning trees and teleporting ... that violates a very long standing rule in shadowrun, for what end? Just have your movable team spawn/drop off point. All they are doing with summoning trees is ripping off portable spawn beacons that other games integrated, just to say they have it.

It might be a good FPS ... just don't call it shadowrun. Anyone else annoyed by regenerating elves?
James McMurray
Healing magic that looks like a tree is not against SR canon. Casters can design the visuals of their spells to look like anything the GM will allow.
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