and there isnt a reason to sway them either...

How does Improved Reflexes the Power factor into this? What about all those poor Hacker Adepts that spend their hard earned power points?

As for getting more than you paid for, there are plenty of combos out there that benefit a character with a split archetype. Combat Hackers benefit from the above arguement (IPs). Hermetics that focus on technical skills get their Logic to everything making Cerebral Boosters very powerful. Elven Shaman-faces are a force to reckon with. There are plenty of ways that a character can have an edge over several different aspects of the game world at a time with minimal expenditure. For example: What can't you do with guns?
Badguy? I shoot him.
Interrogation? I shoot his kneecap.
Door locked? I shoot it.
Guards heard me "unlocking" door? I shoot them.
They have Hell Hounds? I shoot them.
Spirits too? I shoot their materalized forms with stick 'n shock.
No car? I shoot a taxi driver.
There. An example of how minimal BP can solve many problems.

As for the fluff of implants, I do agree that the fluff doesn't match the rules. Wired according the the definition above (can't remember who, they quoted Cybertechnology) doesn't look like it would help with hacking, but is magic the same way? Do adepts have to pick whether they use their Improved Reflexes mentally or physically? There's another archetyoe you're letting down: the hacking adept.

Do not dash my hopes and dreams!

ok, i do belive this thread have gone into the silly zone.

people, back to your corners and wait for the errata. and if the topic comes up in a diffrent thread before that, politely point out that there is two diffrent interpetations floating around and leave it at that...

I agree with deek on almost all counts... yes you can perform physical actions while in VR, but the penalties for doing so would turn routine physical combat into something like walking a tightrope in a dense fog while completely pissed. But if something has to be done, well, the possibility is there.

And I dunno where the complaint about hacker Adepts being left out in the cold came from. The Improved Reflexes power has exactly the same effect as Wired Reflexes does on hacking, AR, and matrix actions (which is to say, none in my book). They can wear trodes or nanopaste like everyone else and access the matrix via DNI without suffering any penalties for it. They're on equal footing with everyone else. Really, folks. It's like youre looking for any argument to put deek on the defensive.

The difference between controlling your persona in AR and controlling your persona in VR should be night and day; like issuing commands to drones from captain's chair view and jumping into one. The hacker that jumps into VR opens himself up to a world of pain. He risks shock, addiction, even death, by riding Hot. On top of that, he's making himself as defenseless as a sleeping newborn IRL. All this he puts on the line to gain 2 IPs, +1 initiative, and 2 dice.

For 6 BPs worth of cash and 3 essence at character creation, a hacker gains all the speed of Hot Sim, but must sacrifice those 2 extra dice in exchange for immunity to matrix shock, addiction, and death. He can freely keep tabs on his real world surroundings, and may even split his actions between the two worlds.

This sounds like a complete no-brainer to me. NOT securing physical reflex enhancements puts you, and thus your team, at unnecessary risk. Will you die for 2 extra dice? That's the only question at hand here.

Combat is where this really matters, of course. Crossing cyberswords in AR right away removes the possibility of ultimate loss. The AR hacker with wires is very close in combat effectiveness to a hacker going balls to the wall, risking everything in Hot VR. That just isn't right. If you want to play, you've got to ante up.

AR hacking should be like a higher level interface. There's a degree of seperation you have from your persona which needs to be respected in the rules. Maybe an AR user should be limited to issuing commands, just like you would command a drone or agent. The system should be set up so that when you want something done right, you need to jump in there and do it yourself.

edit: god, i write slow. i started this post like 8 replies ago....

At this point, I don't think most of us are concerned about being right or wrong, but are genuinely interested in what was intended. Plus, that way when it comes up we can without a doubt tell people what the intention was and the "other" interpretation.

I don't understand all the fighting. The rules are simple.

"Initiative is now a derived attribute. (Reaction + Intuition)." Pg. 52

"If you are using augmented reality, you are acting at regular meat body speeds-use your Reaction and Initiative as normal (see Initiative, pg. 132)" Pg. 230

In SR4, Initiative and Initiative Passes have been clearly defined as separate entities. No longer is Initiative 2d6+10. Initiative is simply an attribute derived from Reaction and Intuition. Initiative passes are distinctly separate from the initiative attribute. You can have a high initiative now and no extra passes, or a low initiative and several passes.

No where on pg. 230, under Augmented Initiative does it say Initiative Passes of any kind applies and carries over to Matrix work. It says to use your Reaction and Initiative as normal. Passes are not a part of Initiative. Initiative as stated is simply Reaction + Intuition.

Normal. This a book full of rules for use by shadowrunners. Most runners are augmented by cyber and magic. Considering who the rules are intended to be used for, namely shadowrunners and the players who make them, it is more than appropriate to refer to normal as augmented.

The difference of opinion here seems to branch from what normal refers to, not what it means. One side thinks it refers to normal initiative rules. One thinks it is describing "normal" people using the rules. From each point of view those involved are correct. So which is it? Normal rules or Normal people?

As far as IPs go, AR IPs are not explictly stated. Astral IPs and VR IPs are stated in black and white because they are special cases. You get exactly how much they say you can get if you go VR. You get exactly how much every other mage gets when projecting. However, since AR lacks such blatant clairification and (depending on what you think "normal" is refering to) the only bit of clairification given is the page number for how initiative works any other time of the day. There is no reason not to clairfy AR IPs if they were indeed intended to be limited to 1 per pass. There is plenty of precedence for making such a clairification. Astral and VR init passages make note of where they differ from the rules as per page 132. AR actually goes so far as to say it works exactly like page 132. This includes augmentation.

Just like casting spells are Magic actions yet use the same physical init. Same with AR actions, according to RAW.

This is really giving me a headache. Or maybe I've already had too much coffee this morning...

Is a Matrix user supposed to keep track of two seperate initiatives in combat? If not, and I suspect not, then an AR user gets his Wires if applicable. Using AR doesn't slow down a user's body, and taking away those bonuses goes against the spirit of the rule allowing AR users to freely choose between interacting with the physical world or the augmented world.

Speed of thought issues aside, if we take a look at how the astral plane is set up, and recognize how SR has made the astral and digital worlds more and more similar in this edition, we can see that the same situation is present with regard to dual natured entities. An astrally perceiving character retains all his physical initiative boosting enhancements, even if that means he acts as fast or faster than an astrally projecting magician moving at the speed of thought (or spirit or whatever).

What I think the silent majority believes is the crux of the AR issue is how little an AR user risks in cybercombat. An astrally perceiving character still risks his life when engaged in astral combat. He lacks the mobility of a projecting character, but may turn off his perceptions and become immune to further attack. Conversely, an AR user risks neither life nor mental health, unlike a VR user, and the difference in combat effectiveness between a wired AR user and a VR user is negligible.

AR users get full reflex boosted initiative. But they need to be nerfed in cybercombat

I believe the definition of "initiative" on page 132, is describing the initiative phase, not someone's physical (meat body) initiative.

Look at the stock character sheet. Those stats are your phyical attributes of your meat body. Notice that it has a box labeled Initiative. Notice that the box for Passes is separate and not even next to the Initiative box. When they mention to use physical Reaction and Initiative, they are referring to the stats on the sheet.

And considering that on page 230, that they go out of their way to mention that VR grants extra passes, the lack of mentioning any extra passes in augmented reality indicates that they don't intend you to have any at all.

They say to use the physical Reaction and Initiative. By saying those two items (and only those two items) are used, excludes using ANY other physical attritributes or modifiers towards Matrix Initiative. Including extra passes awarded for cyberware, bioware, or even drugs like Jazz/Cram.

Also, after reading through Matrix, and even the rigging sections, the only way hackers or riggers can get extra passes is to go VR; hot sim for the most actions.

AR is the new tortoise hacking. Safe but horribly slow. It allows the hacker to be marginally effective and present with the rest of the crew, but to go all out still means being a motionless target.

Jazzed reflexes are a result of improving response time from the brain to the body. The brain is what holds back matrix actions. Only improving the immersion will increase matrix passes.

Lastly, everything on 228 and 229 describes VR as being lightning fast compared to AR. Also, it mentions that for Cold or Hot Sim, you use your Matrix Initiative instead of physical Initiative and then interestingly calls your Matrix Initiative (Response + Intuition). After that they mention separately that you get an extra pass for a total of two (or three for hot sim). Indicating that without VR, you are stuck at one.

They say physical initiative (the definition of which is Reaction + Intuition, on pg. 52). They don't say anything about additional passes from cyber, bioware, or drugs.

Rules tell you what you can and can't do. You don't use the gray area to modify the rules to your favor.