except this is specifically covered in the combat section for Initiative Passes and Switching Initiative

My mistake...with a WR2 character, getting 3 IPs and being in AR, your single AR action would have to be in the first pass, as you only have 1IP. So, you choose whether that first action will be physical or matrix, and then after that, you do your physical actions in IP 2 and 3.

I think it is easier to think about it if you are always using two initiatives, a matrix initiative and a physical initiative (technically, you could probably throw in astral as well, but I don't want to delve into that at the moment).

You have those two tracks and the IPs are integrated. I mean, a character that only gets one physical IP, but is in Hot VR with 3IPs, works the same way...I have one physical IP that I can take in IP1 or matrix, and then IPs 2 and 3 are matrix actions...granted, that first physical IP has a -4 penalty because I have to concentrate on my meat body over the VR signals I'm being bombarded with.

The key is they are integrated...the benefit to the hacker with wired reflexes is that his physical actions can be in any IP that he would be granted an action, so if he is also VR, he is effectively choosing whether to act in the physical or matrix realm...granted, with a penalty.

The benefit with AR is that you get that one IP in the matrix and no penalty.

Yeah, but page 134, which I believe you are referencing is using the generic term of "initiative". So, at the beginning of the combat turns, you roll one physical initative score and one matrix initiative score, then depending on your initiative passes and the other scores rolled, you determine order.

This makes it possible for you to go before the opponent, if perhaps you rolled a lot better matrix initiative than physical...granted, in order to go before, you would have to choose to do a matrix actions.

Example:

(E) Enemy, 2 IPs, Initiative roll of 12
(CH) Combat Hacker in Hot VR with WR 1, 2 IPs physical, roll of 11, 2 IPs in matrix, roll of 18.

First IP (CH) can take a matrix action at 18 and go before (E), or choose to do a physical action and go after (E), but take a penalty. Granted, he could use his free action and logoff into AR, but then he would drop back to his physical initiative...but, he will no longer have that -4 penalty when he acts on 11.

I think the key is still on page 230, where it says that matrix initiatives are integrated with RL action. So, you have to have the two separate initiative tracks in order for that to work.

The rules on page 134, then refer to when you physical initiative/IPs change, like activating/deactivating wired reflexes, or switching matrix modes (on page 229).

see the RAW quote from the beginning of the post about Hot Sims explaining that the only reason they get the extra speeds is because they subject themselves to unsafe levels for a stronger signal

Cold Sim and AR are operating at "safe" speeds and thus cannot go beyond it by any means. The signal simply isn't strong enough because its diluted to safe levels. This is because the matrix has its own time/Initiative passes as shown by the statement in Cybercombat. They are concurrent or seperate, NOT Physical.

any inference to splitting between physical and matrix is in regards to actions, Not action phases, Initiative Passes, or combat turns.

right there with ya. Though my wife wonders when I'll ever put the damned book down, I can say I feel far more prepared for this game than I did last weekend.

Still a little fuzzy around the edges when it comes to Techno's, and since we have one as a player, I'm hoping I can accurately capture more of his colorful way of using the matrix.

Despite how annoyed we might all get when others read the same sentence and see something completely different, thats just human nature, and in the end I appreciate everyone who has even attempted with much frustration to express their point on this matter.

Heres to you guys for making a GM do his job.

I'm 95% sure that isn't true at all. Yes you can still see and interact with the real world, but the node your currently in appears as a window in your vision. You log on to a node connected to that node and it appears as a second window. You can only act in one window per action so I imagine the other windows are in a "minimized" state while you do so. If you want to concentrate solely on the real world then all of the nodes you are connected to are in a "minimized" state.

For example....

Joe Blow is riding the subway train. He uses AR to connect to his home node and set up dinner and check for phone messages. While he does this his home's node appears as a window in his field of view. He's connected to it even though its nowhere near his signal range. Simple, he connected to a public node, the commlink equivalent of the phone company, and from there linked to his home's node.

Notice its almost a word for word repeat with the exception of the word Standard, placed right before the attributes and followed by normal.

So by Webster we have
Normal
Regular
Standard

By the Matrix Jargon (pg 216) we have
Meat

All in that same sentence. Man thats not just implied, its overly implied and emphasized to boot!

I concede there is a lot of logic to that arguement, depending on how you interpert words. I tend to use webster and it seems clear, I see them in context and it doesn't become less clear....to me. But I can see where it IS confusing (no denying the ambiguity).

But if that was the only one reason then the matter would have ended. Compared to the numerous references of VR's speed and risk at greater signal strength, coupled with the word actions with no reference to passes (and even initiative handles them seperately as the only way to achieve them is by bonuses), and that such actions are defined as matrix actions either seperate or concurrent with the physical, then to further add it doesn't match what a similar (from a game mechanic perspective) environment like astral does, and it unbalances the intent of hot sim VR at greater risk (small problem for hackers) and greatly unbalances technomancers as written.

I don't have to be able to count to figure out that if its confusing, and theres a mistake, its not the twelve reasons against but the more likely one reason for thats wrong.

And still, who knows what these guys are smoking (or me for that matter). I'll come back when someone finds any of the evidence as referenced in another post. Because we can dance about this bit of wording forever and it still seems to be the only one.

Yea but they get that for even greater risk than a Hot Sim hacker and the cost of 5 BPs + Resonance + Complex Forms. They risk stun damage even to an attack program means that all IC is black IC. Thats pretty extreme of itself.

Hackers assume some risk for 3 IP's, Techno's assume even more risk for the potential of 4 IP's.

AR users getting 4 IP's and being immune to black IC is a double advantage and makes Cold Sim and possibly Hot Sim obsolete. (Note you don't get a +2 dice pool for cold sim so that arguement doesn't hold weight when AR + WR is twice as fast and still safer.)

If you can't see that as unbalancing, then were not even playing the same kind of game.

Now if no one plays a technomancer, and everyone has Wired Reflexes in your game, then AR + WR for IP's probably has little impact. But for the book as intended and written, there is no way it doesn't cause a huge crack in certain character "roles" as written. I'm all for blurring the lines between roles, but not to the point of a lack of diversity so that we're all playing the same slightly different character.

Theres really no convincing someone who wants to metagame for maximum advantage if they aren't playing with a group.

Some individuals look for personal advantage. They sit down and make a character at 500+ build points and look for every slightly possible interpertation to make their guy the best. Sometimes these guys don't even play with anyone, they're imagining if they did play.

But in any true RPG there is a GM with a fair and open mind has to balance the wants between the needs. Everyone wants to be the baddest, but all they need is to have fun. Fun = a challenge and not I WIN situations like the ultimate speed and perfect safety of allowing AR and WR to stack. I don't play a character, the advantage or lack of doesn't affect me at all. But it does affect my game in some pretty large ways. While the converse of not allowing wired reflexes to stack doesn't change anything at all. It just makes hackers want to take the risk and use VR for serious hacks. It makes techno's feel stoked that no matter how fast a commlink using hacker goes, a techno can squeeze a little more speed for his lack of versatility. And I have yet to hear a solid arguement that this wasn't the intent all along.

Complex forms and sprites cause fading. Fading = stun damage = wound modifiers. So sure you can thread, but you had better do it wisely. So even when they try to marginalize their lack of versatility, they put themselves at a greater risk (effectively hitting themselves).

But really, the games about having fun. If its more fun for you to be fast and perfectly safe from biofeedback, diminishing the rush a player who was forced to use hot sim felt, your more than allowed to do so.

However, I'll never never agree that it was what they intended or implied all along without some numerous implied examples otherwise, or a definitive ruling from the designers. I really have to wonder at the intent and honesty of those that are playing a game for fun and then want to further dilute the imaginary risk.

Please quote the rule that says so.

Cold sim is for VR, not AR, so your math is lost here.

Show me a rule that says so for AR - like 'Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement.' for WR.

..you do realize that such behavior defeats the very purpose of a voting system, do you?

GUI's only wait at user interaction... everything else is artificially slowing it down.
So, no, that justification is incompatible to the SR4 approach to the matrix, where there is no lag in hardware.

You did notice the slight difference in hacking probing speeds (24h@AR vs. 1h@VR) when probing the target and the benefit of jumping into a vehicle/drone (+1Die@AR vs. -1Threshold@VR)?

Given the game design of SR4, VR mustn't be the absolutely best way of doing things - otherwise we are back tp SR3, where the hacker never is with the team.
Artificially limiting AR defeat's it's whole purpose... tortois mode hacking was perfetcly possible in SR3.

You are missing the point - or, rather, never got it:

In combat, to survive, everyone does what he does best - and going VR in combat is suicide.
So the hacker will spend both his actions hacking on the fly in AR (if hacking is needed), as the rules allow him:

Now, lets take a look at game balance.

In actual combat, I guess neither the GM nor any other player would have a problem with the decker taking multiple passes to get that door opened faster (assuming the GM remembers he's on the same side as the players, of course ...) - no problem here.

Look at Mr. Munchkin now (the only real problem to any RP game/system/session - hell, anything RP related ). Mr. Munchkin does not only want to use his Wired Reflexes in emergency situations, no, he wants a 'faster than VR, with none of the dangers - all purpose hacking environment'.
THAT is a problem ... or it might be, if the GM hasn't any idea of how to keep Mr. Munchkin in check.
Which is damn easy if you (re-)introduce the side effects of such reflex acceleration abuse : paranoia, seizures, muscle strain (hours of fast-reflex movements), schizophrenia (the character has problems sepertaing real-life and matrix entities), fatigue ...
Problem solved. Mr. Munchkin no longer poses a threat to game balance.

Or does anyone see THAT MUCH of a problem with additional Matrix IPs in EMERGENCY situations ?

Nowhere is told how extra IPs happen - especially for non-cyberware... assuming anythings is kinda futile.

..so this is just plain silly.

Outside critical situations, no one uses initative anyways... so it doesn't even matter, especially since non-improvised methods rely on extended tests with real time anyway.

That's kinda silly. Unless commlinks are psychic, by definition it can't be a purely mental event. At least, it can't until Time Lords start making commlinks.

Because....

when combined with the normal AR advantages of immunity to Black attacks and no wound modifiers it creates a hacker who from AR has a serious edge over a VR user. ( It should also be mentioned that with reaction enhancers the AR hacker has an excellent chance of having a significantly faster initiative) Go to the "My Wireless Rulings" topic and read the sad tale of "Goth the AR Hacker and Chesire the technomancer" if you want an example.

This is ducking back into the realm of non-current fluff and old rules, but...

Cybertechnology's big chunk of fluff written by Hatchetman gives a pretty vivid description of how Wired Reflexes work. IIRC, he emphasises the fact that they're reflexes... not faster thoughts, just faster reactions. He talks about accidentaly twitching and hitting his friends when surprised, about learning to sit where you can see people coming at you to reduce accidental defensive reactions... quite obviously, the implication is that while the speed at which you act is increasing, your ability to process information is not speeding up.

The rules also covered some of these effects... having augmented reactions of any kind got you into situations where the GM could ask a player (if he was surprised, for example) to make a roll, penalized by the number of extra dice he got on an init roll, to react to something without thinking about it... shooting at a suddenly-appearing person without bothering to ID them first, slugging the guy you're talking to when he starts to reach for his wallet, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if, when we've got more than a single book of rules available to us, we see something along the lines of penalties to Composure tests in certain situations based on the number of IPs you get. Because this roll didn't care where the bonus dice came from (that is, it wasn't just wired reflexes... you had this problem with the bio equivalent, drug use, and magical increases, as well), it's a reasonable assumption that all of the different ways of getting a human to react faster physically do so by bypassing thinking.

None of the implications here are that you can think faster, or process information at an increased rate... your reflexes are simply enhanced. VR's current description is that what you do happens at close to the speed of thought, with hot-sim and technomancy letting you push the envelope in terms of getting your actions even closer to thought-speed. Obviously, we're not bypassing thinking here... the limiter is supposed to be the thought-hardware interface. If you want to argue that the guy who acts faster than he can think is going to be a good hacker, fine... but I'll think you're being silly.

If the actual meaning of the RAW is that augmented IPs count for AR use, then that's one more houserule I'm going to have to write.

Damage modifiers count - both for the persona and the hacker, no matter whether he is using AR or VR.

Both AR and VR have advantages and disadvatages - but nowahere it is stated that VR always has to be the best option.

I still think the biggest advantage is in AR (assuming just the single IP) is that the hacker comes along with the rest of the group, can take a turn to go VR, get several nodes subscribed, change into AR and run with the team.

In initiative situations, the hacker can choose to act in the matrix (AR) or the physical, with no penalties, just limited to on matrix IP. Or, then can change to VR, for multiple IPs, but take a penalty to physical actions if they still need to do something there...

But again, as long as the GM runs the matrix the same way for PCs and NPCs, it really not an issue. I run it with AR giving 1IP, CVR giving 2IP and HVR giving 3IP and none of my players have started an uprising because they can't use extra IPs in AR...and the game runs fine.

Last I checked of the three damage tracks ( physical, stun, matrix ) only physical and stun provide wound modifiers. Since Black Hammer and Blackout are useless against AR there isn't a RAW method of inflicting wound modifying damage through the matrix to them.

Well, it is seamlessly integrated, but for everyone, not just hackers. That's the whole point for the RFID tags, having your SIN, bank accounts, phone and everything in a commlink...its all integrated...and basically everyone uses it. Everytime you enter a building, you are likely going to have a public map overlay available, directories and lists of companies in the building...

So, AR is integrated seamlessly, its just that unlike a few that interpreted extra IPs in the physical giving an AR advantage, VR is where you get total immersion...you take the heightened risk of going VR but with it comes the advantages of extra IPs, potentially better initiative and extra dice...

As a hacker, both my own understanding and from what I have seen played...hacker types are constantly shifting from AR to CVR to HVR, depending on the task and what is going on around them. Most other characters are sticking to AR only, and mainly just getting information from it, not hacking around much on their own. They may be doing data searches or other information gathering in AR, but not going virtual...

Again, I feel that AR is seamlessly integrated, it just that it is not the only thing and just like the RAW states, hackers still go into VR to get the work done...based on your interpretation, the ONLY reason anyone would go into VR would be to probe a target...once you give AR multiple IPs, CVR is completely worthless and HVR only gains you 2 extra dice (not usually a big deal)...but both of them have downsides to Black attacks...

The matrix since Matrix always was - you did notice the 'action' part, did you?

VR gives you those things for free.
But that doesn't mean that a Combat Hacker is unbalancing when he uses the additional passes he paid for in AR while supporting his team on site.