Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: AR Initiative passes
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
Wiseman
QUOTE
I still think the integration benefits of AR is the ability to incorporate 1IP on a matrix actions while continuing to operate in the physical world with no penalty.

You can do the same thing with VR (hot or cold) to get multiple IPs with physical actions, but you are taking penalties to do so, as stated on page 230.

My players, when rolling initiative and knowing they are going to mix actions in the combat turn, are giving me a physical initiative AND a matrix initiative, and we resolve order from there...


except this is specifically covered in the combat section for Initiative Passes and Switching Initiative
deek
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (deek @ Jul 21 2006, 07:29 PM)
I don't know, I just get the impression, mainly from page 230, that AR just gets incorporated with normal intiative.  So, a character with WR2, who gets three IPs, would be able to fire his weapons in IP 1, do a matrix action in AR in IP 2 and fire his weapons again in IP 3.

That doesn't give the player the ability to take 3 AR matrix actions in his combat turn, because AR only allows the 1 IP, but it does allow him to take physical actions...

That's not what they rule say, though they allow this.
They allow him to hack his first actions, too, and shoot in the last.

My mistake...with a WR2 character, getting 3 IPs and being in AR, your single AR action would have to be in the first pass, as you only have 1IP. So, you choose whether that first action will be physical or matrix, and then after that, you do your physical actions in IP 2 and 3.

I think it is easier to think about it if you are always using two initiatives, a matrix initiative and a physical initiative (technically, you could probably throw in astral as well, but I don't want to delve into that at the moment).

You have those two tracks and the IPs are integrated. I mean, a character that only gets one physical IP, but is in Hot VR with 3IPs, works the same way...I have one physical IP that I can take in IP1 or matrix, and then IPs 2 and 3 are matrix actions...granted, that first physical IP has a -4 penalty because I have to concentrate on my meat body over the VR signals I'm being bombarded with.

The key is they are integrated...the benefit to the hacker with wired reflexes is that his physical actions can be in any IP that he would be granted an action, so if he is also VR, he is effectively choosing whether to act in the physical or matrix realm...granted, with a penalty.

The benefit with AR is that you get that one IP in the matrix and no penalty.
deek
QUOTE (Wiseman @ Jul 21 2006, 12:40 PM)
QUOTE
I still think the integration benefits of AR is the ability to incorporate 1IP on a matrix actions while continuing to operate in the physical world with no penalty.

You can do the same thing with VR (hot or cold) to get multiple IPs with physical actions, but you are taking penalties to do so, as stated on page 230.

My players, when rolling initiative and knowing they are going to mix actions in the combat turn, are giving me a physical initiative AND a matrix initiative, and we resolve order from there...


except this is specifically covered in the combat section for Initiative Passes and Switching Initiative

Yeah, but page 134, which I believe you are referencing is using the generic term of "initiative". So, at the beginning of the combat turns, you roll one physical initative score and one matrix initiative score, then depending on your initiative passes and the other scores rolled, you determine order.

This makes it possible for you to go before the opponent, if perhaps you rolled a lot better matrix initiative than physical...granted, in order to go before, you would have to choose to do a matrix actions.

Example:

(E) Enemy, 2 IPs, Initiative roll of 12
(CH) Combat Hacker in Hot VR with WR 1, 2 IPs physical, roll of 11, 2 IPs in matrix, roll of 18.

First IP (CH) can take a matrix action at 18 and go before (E), or choose to do a physical action and go after (E), but take a penalty. Granted, he could use his free action and logoff into AR, but then he would drop back to his physical initiative...but, he will no longer have that -4 penalty when he acts on 11.

I think the key is still on page 230, where it says that matrix initiatives are integrated with RL action. So, you have to have the two separate initiative tracks in order for that to work.

The rules on page 134, then refer to when you physical initiative/IPs change, like activating/deactivating wired reflexes, or switching matrix modes (on page 229).
Aaron
Much as I hate to say it, I think that extra IPs apply to AR. All of 'em. I'd prefer it another way, but I'm forced to believe that a street sam can get three passes in AR by cold, cruel logic.

Consider: what does a person have to do in order to perform matrix actions in AR? She has to work a control of some sort, either physical or (more likely) virtual. What does that entail? A person uses AR by moving fingers, possibly adjusting arm positions to different places on the virtual console. Compare this to what a wired person can do in meatspace with multiple IPs. I have a hard time believing that someone who can unload a clip, reload, fire a burst, and then unload the rest of the clip, or load twelve to eighteen rounds into a clip, all in three seconds, would have a problem handling an AR interface.

And there's no issues on the hardware end of things. I seriously doubt that an AR interface is slower than a VR interface. If anything, it's faster, since the processing power required to display visual, aural, or even tactile information is far less than rendering a simsense version of a virtual reality in real time. As far as processing goes, a machine that can keep up with three VR IPs can keep up with three AR IPs (I suppose one could make an argument that it couldn't keep up with four, but that's a bit tangental to the point).

So there it is.
Wiseman
QUOTE
Consider: what does a person have to do in order to perform matrix actions in AR? She has to work a control of some sort, either physical or (more likely) virtual. What does that entail? A person uses AR by moving fingers, possibly adjusting arm positions to different places on the virtual console. Compare this to what a wired person can do in meatspace with multiple IPs. I have a hard time believing that someone who can unload a clip, reload, fire a burst, and then unload the rest of the clip, or load twelve to eighteen rounds into a clip, all in three seconds, would have a problem handling an AR interface.


see the RAW quote from the beginning of the post about Hot Sims explaining that the only reason they get the extra speeds is because they subject themselves to unsafe levels for a stronger signal

Cold Sim and AR are operating at "safe" speeds and thus cannot go beyond it by any means. The signal simply isn't strong enough because its diluted to safe levels. This is because the matrix has its own time/Initiative passes as shown by the statement in Cybercombat. They are concurrent or seperate, NOT Physical.

any inference to splitting between physical and matrix is in regards to actions, Not action phases, Initiative Passes, or combat turns.
Wiseman
Also I'm still awaiting the RAW quotes with pages to support the AR is faster than VR. OR any part that says WR (wired reflexes) stacks IP's with AR. Or proof that AR actions aren't matrix actions. Or some kind of explanation of balance as to why a street SAM should be faster with wires/interface than a purely to-the-root-of-the-code technomancer can while remaining perfectly safe. If you can read the ENTIRE matrix section and not walk away feeling like Hot Sim VR is were the hackers play because its the fastest around, I'd love to hear/see why.

And if your planning on posting the words regular, normal, and meat-body from the AR Initiative Section, and then try to claim a wired character is regular, normal, and a meat-body - Please go back and read the entire post.

If your going to use some kind of mumbo jumbo fluff that implies your fast at everything (rather than the game mechanic of bonuses to physical reaction and passes at speeds above..Normal) then I refer you back to the beginning of the post and the part about "Safe signal levels" capped to prevent lethal biofeedback.

Hell by the RAW I could argue that the +X IP's from WR says it doesn't stack with anything, so It doesn't stack with the physical/regular/normal IP pass of 1 you get. Rules don't say no.

If you gonna argue the + says so, then the word Extra before the passes for cold sim and hot sim imply AR is capped at 1 IP.
deek
Well, the one good thing that has come from this discussion is that I now have a firm grasp/validation of how I run things in my game (see my posts above for details)...that doesn't mean its the right way or the wrong way, just the way I am using...so for that being cleared up in my head, I am thankful!
Wiseman
QUOTE
Well, the one good thing that has come from this discussion is that I now have a firm grasp/validation of how I run things in my game (see my posts above for details)...that doesn't mean its the right way or the wrong way, just the way I am using...so for that being cleared up in my head, I am thankful!


right there with ya. Though my wife wonders when I'll ever put the damned book down, I can say I feel far more prepared for this game than I did last weekend.

Still a little fuzzy around the edges when it comes to Techno's, and since we have one as a player, I'm hoping I can accurately capture more of his colorful way of using the matrix.

Despite how annoyed we might all get when others read the same sentence and see something completely different, thats just human nature, and in the end I appreciate everyone who has even attempted with much frustration to express their point on this matter.

Heres to you guys for making a GM do his job.
2bit
AR, by definition, is a less immersive form of simsense than cold or hot VR. This is the standard device chain for accessing the matrix:

Mind -> DNI interface device -> Sim Module -> Commlink -> Matrix

pg. 209 says this is the normal way people interact with AR. DNI via sim module.
The Sim Module, which essentially performs as the GUI, is the chokepoint. The metahuman mind is capable of interfacing with the commlink very fast, and the more immersive the simsense, the greater the bandwidth between the brain and the commlink. AR is the least immersive simsense, and therefore, the slowest interface.

Wired Reflexes and similar enhancements will not help your mind interface with the commlink faster, because the mind is not the chokepoint. the Sim Module is. For all the claims people have made about WR making you think faster, the truth is it makes you act faster so that your body keeps up with your mind. Notice where the body comes into play in the AR device chain. Nowhere.

Unfortunately, the RAW do seem to allow WR bonuses to apply to AR. I think this is unintentional, or at the least, an unconscious break from the spirit of mind/machine interface.
Kremlin KOA
Just remember the other downside of AR people
you can't bounce rom node to node, you are still 'in your body' meaning you need to be within signal range of a evice to use it

it si Augmented reality, which is an overlay on reality

to suggest usig AR brngs you down to 1 pass means WR HAS NO EFFECT AT ALL as almost everyone uses AR in their optic systems
hobgoblin
well the book specificaly talks about opening another connection just like you can open up another browser window today...

as for that range thing, i dont know either way.
at times it seems that the matrix is ever present, and as long as you have a connection to it, you can connect to any node, anywhere on the planet.

at other times it seems that you have to manualy build your routing from device to device to get anywhere...

in the end i guess it all comes down to the individual groups and their view of the matrix...
booklord
QUOTE
Just remember the other downside of AR people
you can't bounce rom node to node, you are still 'in your body' meaning you need to be within signal range of a evice to use it

it si Augmented reality, which is an overlay on reality


I'm 95% sure that isn't true at all. Yes you can still see and interact with the real world, but the node your currently in appears as a window in your vision. You log on to a node connected to that node and it appears as a second window. You can only act in one window per action so I imagine the other windows are in a "minimized" state while you do so. If you want to concentrate solely on the real world then all of the nodes you are connected to are in a "minimized" state.

For example....

Joe Blow is riding the subway train. He uses AR to connect to his home node and set up dinner and check for phone messages. While he does this his home's node appears as a window in his field of view. He's connected to it even though its nowhere near his signal range. Simple, he connected to a public node, the commlink equivalent of the phone company, and from there linked to his home's node.

Wiseman
AR uses can access multiple nodes as their icon would be represented in each. However, they may only take their action or actions in the Matrix in one node or another, if attacked in multiple nodes, the 1 IP AR user would have to choose which to defend in and the reamining attacks from IC would be treated as success tests instead, damage resisted and subtracted from the MCM. Worse, IC operating at digital speeds get 3 IP's.

So yeah you can do it, it has its risks also.

[See pg 218 Accessing Multiple Nodes & pg 232 simultaneous combat in multiple nodes]

Found a repeat of what is stated in Cybercombat under the heading: Using the Matrix 218

QUOTE
When you utilize the Matrix with AR, you act at regular meat-body speeds, using your character's physical standard Reaction and Initiative, as normal (see Initiative, p. 132).


Notice its almost a word for word repeat with the exception of the word Standard, placed right before the attributes and followed by normal.

So by Webster we have
Normal
Regular
Standard

By the Matrix Jargon (pg 216) we have
Meat

All in that same sentence. Man thats not just implied, its overly implied and emphasized to boot!
BlueRondo
All those adjectives certainly do imply something. I think the problem is that, since that passage was written in the Matrix-specific chapter of the book, many people who read the words "standard," "regular," and "meat" are going to think that the point being emphasized is "use your physical initiative for AR, not your matrix initiative."

Consider the sentence, "use your physical Reaction and Initiative as normal (see Initiative, p. 132)." What does "normal" mean? Is it simply referring to physical initiative, or does it specifically mean physical initiative unaugmented by cyber/magic? Well, the added "(see Initiative, p. 132)" seems to imply that "normal" is defined in the initiative section starting on p. 132. So if we go back to page 132, we see the rules for physical initiative without augmentations, rules for initiative with augmentations, rules with damage modifiers, rules with edge, and more. The "(see. p. 132)" indicates that the rules here are the rules we are supposed to use with AR, and those rules include multiple passes from augmentations. The "as normal" indicates that nothing about these rules has changed.

If the developers really intended for AR users to use their initiative unaugmented by cyber/magic/etc., I think they would have (or should have) specifically said "unaugmented" rather than using potentially ambiguous words like "standard" and "normal" (which, in the context of the matrix chapter, can be interpreted to simply mean "physical" initiative.) Furthermore, if they intended for only unaugmented initiative to be used, they probably would have simply wrote "(Reaction + Intuition)" in the parenthesis instead of citing the entire Initiative section on p. 132 (which implies that all the rules in that section are applicable.)

Now, I agree that the spirit of the rules is broken by letting AR users surf the matrix faster than technomancers or VR users, but if the debate at hand is what the rules actually say, then I have to say that the rules allow for multiple IPs in AR.
Wiseman
QUOTE
Consider the sentence, "use your physical Reaction and Initiative as normal (see Initiative, p. 132)." What does "normal" mean? Is it simply referring to physical initiative, or does it specifically mean physical initiative unaugmented by cyber/magic? Well, the added "(see Initiative, p. 132)" seems to imply that "normal" is defined in the initiative section starting on p. 132. So if we go back to page 132, we see the rules for physical initiative without augmentations, rules for initiative with augmentations, rules with damage modifiers, rules with edge, and more. The "(see. p. 132)" indicates that the rules here are the rules we are supposed to use with AR, and those rules include multiple passes from augmentations. The "as normal" indicates that nothing about these rules has changed.

If the developers really intended for AR users to use their initiative unaugmented by cyber/magic/etc., I think they would have (or should have) specifically said "unaugmented" rather than using potentially ambiguous words like "standard" and "normal" (which, in the context of the matrix chapter, can be interpreted to simply mean "physical" initiative.) Furthermore, if they intended for only unaugmented initiative to be used, they probably would have simply wrote "(Reaction + Intuition)" in the parenthesis instead of citing the entire Initiative section on p. 132 (which implies that all the rules in that section are applicable.)


I concede there is a lot of logic to that arguement, depending on how you interpert words. I tend to use webster and it seems clear, I see them in context and it doesn't become less clear....to me. But I can see where it IS confusing (no denying the ambiguity).

But if that was the only one reason then the matter would have ended. Compared to the numerous references of VR's speed and risk at greater signal strength, coupled with the word actions with no reference to passes (and even initiative handles them seperately as the only way to achieve them is by bonuses), and that such actions are defined as matrix actions either seperate or concurrent with the physical, then to further add it doesn't match what a similar (from a game mechanic perspective) environment like astral does, and it unbalances the intent of hot sim VR at greater risk (small problem for hackers) and greatly unbalances technomancers as written.

I don't have to be able to count to figure out that if its confusing, and theres a mistake, its not the twelve reasons against but the more likely one reason for thats wrong.

And still, who knows what these guys are smoking (or me for that matter). I'll come back when someone finds any of the evidence as referenced in another post. Because we can dance about this bit of wording forever and it still seems to be the only one.
Samaels Ghost
2 bit: Wired Reflexes and similar enhancements will not help your mind interface with the commlink faster, because the mind is not the chokepoint. the Sim Module is. For all the claims people have made about WR making you think faster, the truth is it makes you act faster so that your body keeps up with your mind. Notice where the body comes into play in the AR device chain. Nowhere.

Here's the way I understand simsense interfaces. Each level has a different level of simsense transmission. AR is slight, Cold is immersive and Hot let's just about everything through. While I do agree that the Sim Module works like a sort of choakepoint I doubt that information FROM the user TO the commlink is subjected to the same kind of safety measures. The comm doesn't need to be protected from us, we need to be protected from it. Information given to the user from the comm (all passing through the sim module) would be limited to prevent harm. Hot Sim include frequencies that cause mental damage (Black vulnerability), induce mass-chemical release in the brain (dependancy problems), and data not normally associated with controlling programs (simsense other than vision or sound, hence a +2 for FULL immersion). The amount of data can be dangerous and therefore is limited, but only for the user. I seriously doubt that during AR or ColdSim that transmissions from the brain to the comm are slowed down. Otherwise there might be more significant speed delays.

side note: I don't think REA should be used for a simsense AR hook up. It should be Response. I do think that an intuitive AR display could be designed for those with AR gloves to manipulate things in a completely different way. Like dance moves or sign language or functions programmed into buttons. This might be too specialied, though. Hack Dancing would almost have to be a separate skill. WHatever, just thinking "out loud".
hobgoblin
hmm, i belive i made much of the same point that bluerondo did over on a diffrent thread, only without all the words nyahnyah.gif

hmm, hackdancing. sounds like a kind of reality filter to me wink.gif
(or maybe a AR version of dance dance revolution?)
Samaels Ghost
completely unbalances the character concepts of the sample hacker and technomancer

Those characters aren't all that great to begin with. They are far from munchkined out WiredHackers and such.
Butterblume
Without reading a lot of the posts:

IP augmentations counts toward AR, according to the rules.
But I think they shouldn't, so I casted a null vote.
Samaels Ghost
Wiseman, I may be incorrect but you seem to be under cutting the sheer power of the Techno. In many of your posts here you say that allowing augmentation to IP for AR users cuts Technos down a peg or two. I disagree. The capabilities of a decent Technomancer far surpass the limits of technology. Their ability to thread forms, compile sprites, and exceed the normal limits for Hacker equivalents (Programs and Agents) they gain a very powerful edge. The Matrix is a dangerous place for Technos, I admit. However technos have the ability to evade detection like no other matrix denizen out there.

For example: Roxxor the Techno is broke and starving. He approaches the local Stuffer Shack a decides that hacking the anti-theft security and the clerks cyber-eyes (dont flame me. I watch to much GitS to think that this won't work!) would be a good way of going about getting diner. He e-mails his registered sprite, Roflcopter, and asks for a little assistance hacking unseen. The sprite lends his power to Roxxor's Stealth form and Roxxor threads a version of Stealth that will more than help and he walks nonchalantly into the store.
As for the numbers, Roxxor can have his Stealth program at a rating as high as x2 his Resonance attribute with Fading equal to the hits used to improve the form. Roflcopter adds his rating to any check involving the Stealth form for a number of combat turns equal to its rating. Depending on if Roxxor has submersed yet and what echoes he's taken (Over-clocking would help) he could be in, out and nice and full before anyone knows any better. What's more he can have massive programs to assist him. Lets say roxxor is average with a 3 in everything mentioned above. THat adds up to= 3 complex form + 3 threading + 3 Roflcopter = a rating 9 Stealth program. That's average. He's good to go.

Technos are crazy powerful. If you want to dominate everything in the Matrix they become awful BP/Karma sinks, however. Specializing in one thing (Data theft, combat hacking) and having secondary skills is a very good idea and makes for some interesting characters. Not to mention pretty powerful.
Wiseman
QUOTE
Wiseman, I may be incorrect but you seem to be under cutting the sheer power of the Techno. In many of your posts here you say that allowing augmentation to IP for AR users cuts Technos down a peg or two. I disagree. The capabilities of a decent Technomancer far surpass the limits of technology. Their ability to thread forms, compile sprites, and exceed the normal limits for Hacker equivalents (Programs and Agents) they gain a very powerful edge. The Matrix is a dangerous place for Technos, I admit. However technos have the ability to evade detection like no other matrix denizen out there


Yea but they get that for even greater risk than a Hot Sim hacker and the cost of 5 BPs + Resonance + Complex Forms. They risk stun damage even to an attack program means that all IC is black IC. Thats pretty extreme of itself.

Hackers assume some risk for 3 IP's, Techno's assume even more risk for the potential of 4 IP's.

AR users getting 4 IP's and being immune to black IC is a double advantage and makes Cold Sim and possibly Hot Sim obsolete. (Note you don't get a +2 dice pool for cold sim so that arguement doesn't hold weight when AR + WR is twice as fast and still safer.)

If you can't see that as unbalancing, then were not even playing the same kind of game.

Now if no one plays a technomancer, and everyone has Wired Reflexes in your game, then AR + WR for IP's probably has little impact. But for the book as intended and written, there is no way it doesn't cause a huge crack in certain character "roles" as written. I'm all for blurring the lines between roles, but not to the point of a lack of diversity so that we're all playing the same slightly different character.

Theres really no convincing someone who wants to metagame for maximum advantage if they aren't playing with a group.

Some individuals look for personal advantage. They sit down and make a character at 500+ build points and look for every slightly possible interpertation to make their guy the best. Sometimes these guys don't even play with anyone, they're imagining if they did play.

But in any true RPG there is a GM with a fair and open mind has to balance the wants between the needs. Everyone wants to be the baddest, but all they need is to have fun. Fun = a challenge and not I WIN situations like the ultimate speed and perfect safety of allowing AR and WR to stack. I don't play a character, the advantage or lack of doesn't affect me at all. But it does affect my game in some pretty large ways. While the converse of not allowing wired reflexes to stack doesn't change anything at all. It just makes hackers want to take the risk and use VR for serious hacks. It makes techno's feel stoked that no matter how fast a commlink using hacker goes, a techno can squeeze a little more speed for his lack of versatility. And I have yet to hear a solid arguement that this wasn't the intent all along.

Complex forms and sprites cause fading. Fading = stun damage = wound modifiers. So sure you can thread, but you had better do it wisely. So even when they try to marginalize their lack of versatility, they put themselves at a greater risk (effectively hitting themselves).

But really, the games about having fun. If its more fun for you to be fast and perfectly safe from biofeedback, diminishing the rush a player who was forced to use hot sim felt, your more than allowed to do so.

However, I'll never never agree that it was what they intended or implied all along without some numerous implied examples otherwise, or a definitive ruling from the designers. I really have to wonder at the intent and honesty of those that are playing a game for fun and then want to further dilute the imaginary risk.
Samaels Ghost
I was JUST talking about Technos. Ignore the debate at thand for a moment. They might be at risk but they are VERY powerful. Plus, the Techno's Resonance attribute is a very arge catch all. Fade resistance is based on Resonance and WIL meaning that the Techno can "cast" even higher "drain" than magicians can. Mages' drain rolls cap (WIL +CHA/LOG/INT), Technos don't. Hacker's programs cap, Technos' forms have an adjustable cap. Sure low level Technos are going to be at risk from even the most benign of Attack progs, but they have the advantage of Fault sprites and Armor forms that would make a Hacker cream his pants. Don't count the techno out of the count just yet.

Stun getting you down? Why doesn't your party have a Medic? Ours has a very good one that very rarely fails to heal ALL the stun we have received recently. AND he can hack (awsome at it). AND he's a crack shot. AND he can drive almost anything. AND he can rig. He covers many roles in the party, none of which makes him any less of a interesting character. Our party all has some sort of IP augmentation (Adept power, synaptics, the spell for me) and there is no blurring of lines there. Even though my buddies have 3-4 IPs and can default on hacking doesn't mean that they should.

Whatever, I'm late for something and should get going. I don't have time to talk about those damned IPs biggrin.gif
Just don't underestimate technos. They're not in as much danger as you would like to think.
Wiseman
haha. I understood you perfectly bro. But again their balanced as is already.

Even though they may exceed the program cap of 6, keep in mind that if they thread a new CF or add to one they already have to a rating greater than their resonance than the damage shifts from STUN to PHYSICAL.

Again, this is akin to a character shooting himself in the foot to gain a little more power. Also sustained CF's (Complex Forms) applies a similar -2 dice pool modifier as mages get.

A techno puts themself at even greater risk to attain those levels of power. The inheriant penalty would moderate any player to using it on a limited basis.

A hacker has better skills/programs/attributes right out of the box.

Consider for instance that the Living Personal for a techno is limited by attributes, further limited by caps at character creation (one attribute at maximum).

Even if the techno takes (ideally) Logic for the maximum at 6 and Resonance at 6 his persona tends to fall well below the persona a beginning hacker could easily purchase. Further his signal is capped at 3 from the start.

Compare that the hacker can have every program at rating 6 and all persona attributes at 6 (and are not required to take the tasking group or individual skills) quite easily with the 50 max BP spent on resources.

Also note that a techno has quite an expensive karma cost just to raise the base living persona attributes and will probably never attain an equal signal strength. While the techno is spending karma just catching up, the hacker is expanding into new areas or improving his skills even further. Eventually the techno might catch up but it'll take a good amount of time before he even equals the hacker's matrix abilities.

So 9 out of 10 times the hacker is best, If the techno assumes damage and risk, he can temporarily equal or exceed the hacker in a given situation.

Giving a wired hacker any further advantage makes choosing a technomancer an even poorer decision no matter how you cut it.

I realize you weren't trying to focus on this particular topic in regards to the techno, but one of my major points against AR and WR stacking IS techno's balance. Saying it isn't all that great (and who likes techno's anyway) is a moot point as they exist and are intended for the same game with in-built advantages and disadvantages.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Wiseman)
Multiple actions do.
Multiple passes don't

Please quote the rule that says so.

QUOTE (Wiseman)
In fact this is further built upon by the fact that cold Sim gets "an extra initiative pass (total two)"

Cold sim is for VR, not AR, so your math is lost here.

QUOTE (Wiseman)
WR didn't stack and doesn't with AR either.

Show me a rule that says so for AR - like 'Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement.' for WR.
Taki
Voted yes, because RAW are clear.
In the same time some good house rules in this thread seem more convincing to me, than RAW.
knasser
Voted no, as it seems a small majority also did. If we took out those who voted yes but think RAW ought to be no, then from the sounds of it, the no's win.

On the subject of why improved physical reactions wouldn't improve AR actions, you could partly justify it by saying the AR GUI is set up for normal human speed, not those who can operate at four times that. You request a window or issue a command and the AR reacts at human speed. It doesn't scroll text past you at 800 words per minute just in case you're an elite shadowrunning mercenary with more chrome in your brain than blood. wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser)
Voted no, as it seems a small majority also did.

..you do realize that such behavior defeats the very purpose of a voting system, do you? indifferent.gif

QUOTE (knasser)
you could partly justify it by saying the AR GUI is set up for normal human speed, not those who can operate at four times that.

GUI's only wait at user interaction... everything else is artificially slowing it down.
So, no, that justification is incompatible to the SR4 approach to the matrix, where there is no lag in hardware.
BlueRondo
Also, even if the GUI was designed for "normal" human speeds, it would probably be capable of operating much faster. And if it's capable of operating much faster, then a decent hacker would be able to modify his commlink/AR gear to do so.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Wiseman)
AR users getting 4 IP's and being immune to black IC is a double advantage and makes Cold Sim and possibly Hot Sim obsolete.

You did notice the slight difference in hacking probing speeds (24h@AR vs. 1h@VR) when probing the target and the benefit of jumping into a vehicle/drone (+1Die@AR vs. -1Threshold@VR)?

Given the game design of SR4, VR mustn't be the absolutely best way of doing things - otherwise we are back tp SR3, where the hacker never is with the team.
Artificially limiting AR defeat's it's whole purpose... tortois mode hacking was perfetcly possible in SR3.
deek
I think you continue to miss the point...with let's say 2 IPs for a hacker in the physical world...using AR, he can do a matrix action in IP 1 and shoot a gun or something in IP 2...no penalties, no downside and he is going with the group.

Heck, even if the hacker goes into VR while accompanying his team, he gets a -6 to perception tests and -4 to actions in the physical world...but, he is getting additonal passes as well. So, this same hacker with 2 IPs for physical, and 4IPs for Hot VR, can take the first two passes shooting weapons, and still has the last to for matrix actions...albeit a penalty, but still...

So, maybe the team has to wait for a combat turn or two at the begining of a round so their hacker can get setup in the proper nodes...but once that is over, the team starts moving and the hacker then hops into AR for most of the run...if he needs more matrix IPs, then he uses a free action to switch modes and goes from there...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (deek)
I think you continue to miss the point...with let's say 2 IPs for a hacker in the physical world...using AR, he can do a matrix action in IP 1 and shoot a gun or something in IP 2...no penalties, no downside and he is going with the group.

You are missing the point - or, rather, never got it:

In combat, to survive, everyone does what he does best - and going VR in combat is suicide.
So the hacker will spend both his actions hacking on the fly in AR (if hacking is needed), as the rules allow him:
QUOTE (SR4 @ p. Augmented Initiative, Augmented Initiative)
You can choose between interacting with the physical world or the augmented world (the Matrix) with each action.
Phobos
Let's try it another way ...

Why does a StreetSam get extra IP from Wired Reflexes ? Because his reactiion time decreases and his hand-eye coordination gets faster.

Is this any use to a decker in AR ? Sure, it is ... at least if he's using AR Gloves and Movements. An icon appears and he triggers an interaction before his brain could normally process it's being there (except in VR) ... or, in terms of rules : he gets (an) extra IP(s).
Well, in fact he doesn't even need the AR Gloves, a Datajack or Trodes used with a sim-module can read the movement as fast as it is happening, too ... just the fact that the decker HAS to move remains as prerequisite for the extra IPs.
If you're trying NOT to move visibly, you're obviously limited by speed-of-thought and simsense reaction times - no chance that Wired Reflexes help with this.

So, yes, it does make sense that you can get multiple IPs in AR. The trade-off for this is a decker that performs a kind of eleborate dance - enough of a drawback to be worth it ... and enough potential for occuring glitches ... :evil grin:
QUOTE ("booklord in the original VR thread")
A physical adept named Staros was walking down the street. He activated his AR Gloves and began ordering dinner from a nearby take-out when a gang of six street toughs jumped out of the shadows and attacked. The fight took several minutes but in the end all the toughs were out cold lying in the street. A street kid who saw the fight ran up to Staros.

"That was really wiz, mister!"

Staros looked at the unconscious bodies around him and then reached to his wrist and turned off his AR gloves.

"Yeah, unfortunately I also ordered tickets to the Shield Wall concert this weekend, joined the archconservative party and answered the personal ad of a troll named Wanda. Gotta Run."



Now, lets take a look at game balance.

In actual combat, I guess neither the GM nor any other player would have a problem with the decker taking multiple passes to get that door opened faster (assuming the GM remembers he's on the same side as the players, of course ...) - no problem here.

Look at Mr. Munchkin now (the only real problem to any RP game/system/session - hell, anything RP related biggrin.gif). Mr. Munchkin does not only want to use his Wired Reflexes in emergency situations, no, he wants a 'faster than VR, with none of the dangers - all purpose hacking environment'.
THAT is a problem ... or it might be, if the GM hasn't any idea of how to keep Mr. Munchkin in check.
Which is damn easy if you (re-)introduce the side effects of such reflex acceleration abuse : paranoia, seizures, muscle strain (hours of fast-reflex movements), schizophrenia (the character has problems sepertaing real-life and matrix entities), fatigue ...
Problem solved. Mr. Munchkin no longer poses a threat to game balance.

Or does anyone see THAT MUCH of a problem with additional Matrix IPs in EMERGENCY situations ?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Phobos)
Why does a StreetSam get extra IP from Wired Reflexes ? Because his reactiion time decreases and his hand-eye coordination gets faster.

Nowhere is told how extra IPs happen - especially for non-cyberware... assuming anythings is kinda futile.

QUOTE (Phobos)
Well, in fact he doesn't even need the AR Gloves, a Datajack or Trodes used with a sim-module can read the movement as fast as it is happening, too ... just the fact that the decker HAS to move remains as prerequisite for the extra IPs.

..so this is just plain silly.

QUOTE (Phobos)
Or does anyone see THAT MUCH of a problem with additional Matrix IPs in EMERGENCY situations ?

Outside critical situations, no one uses initative anyways... so it doesn't even matter, especially since non-improvised methods rely on extended tests with real time anyway.
Samaels Ghost
[removed because it's off topic kinda]
Aaron
Here's something I don't think anyone's pointed out yet.

Any character with two extra passes in VR would pay 400, or 0.08 BP, while the street sam with Wired Reflexes 2 has paid 32,000 (or 6.4 BP), or with Synaptic Booster 2 has paid 160,000 (32 BP), or an adept who has paid no money but at least 25 BP.

So the question is: how is it unfair to allow a character who has paid 80 times (or 312.5 times, or 400 times) as much to have the IPs she purchased?
hobgoblin
its been pointed out again and again...

but that does not stop this dance because by concept (or so say some) VR should allways be quicker because its a purely mental event...
Aaron
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
but that does not stop this dance because by concept (or so say some) VR should allways be quicker because its a purely mental event...

That's kinda silly. Unless commlinks are psychic, by definition it can't be a purely mental event. At least, it can't until Time Lords start making commlinks.
hobgoblin
true, but moving a body part is slower (in theory) then just thinking about doing the same...

so i can see where the "AR is to fast" camp comes from, but i dont agree that this is how its supposed to be in SR4. if so, then why bother to rewrite all that matrix stuff in the first place?
booklord
QUOTE
Any character with two extra passes in VR would pay 400, or 0.08 BP, while the street sam with Wired Reflexes 2 has paid 32,000 (or 6.4 BP), or with Synaptic Booster 2 has paid 160,000 (32 BP), or an adept who has paid no money but at least 25 BP.

So the question is: how is it unfair to allow a character who has paid 80 times (or 312.5 times, or 400 times) as much to have the IPs she purchased?


Because....

when combined with the normal AR advantages of immunity to Black attacks and no wound modifiers it creates a hacker who from AR has a serious edge over a VR user. ( It should also be mentioned that with reaction enhancers the AR hacker has an excellent chance of having a significantly faster initiative) Go to the "My Wireless Rulings" topic and read the sad tale of "Goth the AR Hacker and Chesire the technomancer" if you want an example.
hobgoblin
and that was what i tried to counter with my suggested programs over at another thread nyahnyah.gif
Shrike30
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 23 2006, 11:35 AM)
QUOTE (Phobos)
Why does a StreetSam get extra IP from Wired Reflexes ? Because his reactiion time decreases and his hand-eye coordination gets faster.

Nowhere is told how extra IPs happen - especially for non-cyberware... assuming anythings is kinda futile.

This is ducking back into the realm of non-current fluff and old rules, but...

Cybertechnology's big chunk of fluff written by Hatchetman gives a pretty vivid description of how Wired Reflexes work. IIRC, he emphasises the fact that they're reflexes... not faster thoughts, just faster reactions. He talks about accidentaly twitching and hitting his friends when surprised, about learning to sit where you can see people coming at you to reduce accidental defensive reactions... quite obviously, the implication is that while the speed at which you act is increasing, your ability to process information is not speeding up.

The rules also covered some of these effects... having augmented reactions of any kind got you into situations where the GM could ask a player (if he was surprised, for example) to make a roll, penalized by the number of extra dice he got on an init roll, to react to something without thinking about it... shooting at a suddenly-appearing person without bothering to ID them first, slugging the guy you're talking to when he starts to reach for his wallet, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if, when we've got more than a single book of rules available to us, we see something along the lines of penalties to Composure tests in certain situations based on the number of IPs you get. Because this roll didn't care where the bonus dice came from (that is, it wasn't just wired reflexes... you had this problem with the bio equivalent, drug use, and magical increases, as well), it's a reasonable assumption that all of the different ways of getting a human to react faster physically do so by bypassing thinking.

None of the implications here are that you can think faster, or process information at an increased rate... your reflexes are simply enhanced. VR's current description is that what you do happens at close to the speed of thought, with hot-sim and technomancy letting you push the envelope in terms of getting your actions even closer to thought-speed. Obviously, we're not bypassing thinking here... the limiter is supposed to be the thought-hardware interface. If you want to argue that the guy who acts faster than he can think is going to be a good hacker, fine... but I'll think you're being silly.

If the actual meaning of the RAW is that augmented IPs count for AR use, then that's one more houserule I'm going to have to write.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (booklord)
when combined with the normal AR advantages of immunity to Black attacks and no wound modifiers it creates a hacker who from AR has a serious edge over a VR user.

Damage modifiers count - both for the persona and the hacker, no matter whether he is using AR or VR.

Both AR and VR have advantages and disadvatages - but nowahere it is stated that VR always has to be the best option.
deek
There really isn't going to be closure on this until the game developers chime in officially...

Until then, some of us are going to limit AR to the one IP that we think is right and the rest of you are going to allow multiple IPs in AR (which you think is right), and basically stop using VR unless you are probing a target for weakness (as most will not want to wait a day in AR before making a check).

Honestly, I think both will work in the game and the GM, as long as he is fair to the NPCs, will tailor the game to that ruling. Granted, with multiple IPs in AR, all hackers will need to pick up some form of reflexes or might as well not even be played. And the GM can take a black marker and cross out any mention of Black IC, because they will never be used as all characters will be running through the matrix in AR!
Moon-Hawk
I agree that the rules are quite explicit in allowing the extra IPs. I also feel that the book's setting info is equally explicit regarding the intention of the rules, namely that it is not supposed to be faster than VR. I'm going to rule with my perception of the intention for now, but if there is an official answer I'll bow to that. Probably.
deek
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (booklord @ Jul 25 2006, 07:46 PM)
when combined with the normal AR advantages of immunity to Black attacks and no wound modifiers it creates a hacker who from AR has a serious edge over a VR user.

Damage modifiers count - both for the persona and the hacker, no matter whether he is using AR or VR.

Both AR and VR have advantages and disadvatages - but nowahere it is stated that VR always has to be the best option.

I still think the biggest advantage is in AR (assuming just the single IP) is that the hacker comes along with the rest of the group, can take a turn to go VR, get several nodes subscribed, change into AR and run with the team.

In initiative situations, the hacker can choose to act in the matrix (AR) or the physical, with no penalties, just limited to on matrix IP. Or, then can change to VR, for multiple IPs, but take a penalty to physical actions if they still need to do something there...

But again, as long as the GM runs the matrix the same way for PCs and NPCs, it really not an issue. I run it with AR giving 1IP, CVR giving 2IP and HVR giving 3IP and none of my players have started an uprising because they can't use extra IPs in AR...and the game runs fine.
Rotbart van Dainig
AR is supposed to be the seamless integration of the matrix into action, not just the filler until you go VR.
booklord
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (booklord @ Jul 25 2006, 07:46 PM)
when combined with the normal AR advantages of immunity to Black attacks and no wound modifiers it creates a hacker who from AR has a serious edge over a VR user.

Damage modifiers count - both for the persona and the hacker, no matter whether he is using AR or VR.

Both AR and VR have advantages and disadvatages - but nowahere it is stated that VR always has to be the best option.

Last I checked of the three damage tracks ( physical, stun, matrix ) only physical and stun provide wound modifiers. Since Black Hammer and Blackout are useless against AR there isn't a RAW method of inflicting wound modifying damage through the matrix to them.
GrinderTheTroll
Sorry if this has been asserted already, this thread is getting large.

What about RAW mention of AR adding dice pool penalties to non-AR tests? Yes you can move quickly in AR with Wired 3, but you're going be suffering penalties inthe real-world depending on what's cluterring up your visual field.

I can see this type of thing helping to balance out the extra Matrix actions provided for heavy-IP boosts.
deek
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
AR is supposed to be the seamless integration of the matrix into action, not just the filler until you go VR.

Well, it is seamlessly integrated, but for everyone, not just hackers. That's the whole point for the RFID tags, having your SIN, bank accounts, phone and everything in a commlink...its all integrated...and basically everyone uses it. Everytime you enter a building, you are likely going to have a public map overlay available, directories and lists of companies in the building...

So, AR is integrated seamlessly, its just that unlike a few that interpreted extra IPs in the physical giving an AR advantage, VR is where you get total immersion...you take the heightened risk of going VR but with it comes the advantages of extra IPs, potentially better initiative and extra dice...

As a hacker, both my own understanding and from what I have seen played...hacker types are constantly shifting from AR to CVR to HVR, depending on the task and what is going on around them. Most other characters are sticking to AR only, and mainly just getting information from it, not hacking around much on their own. They may be doing data searches or other information gathering in AR, but not going virtual...

Again, I feel that AR is seamlessly integrated, it just that it is not the only thing and just like the RAW states, hackers still go into VR to get the work done...based on your interpretation, the ONLY reason anyone would go into VR would be to probe a target...once you give AR multiple IPs, CVR is completely worthless and HVR only gains you 2 extra dice (not usually a big deal)...but both of them have downsides to Black attacks...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (deek)
Well, it is seamlessly integrated, but for everyone, not just hackers.

The matrix since Matrix always was - you did notice the 'action' part, did you?

QUOTE (deek)
So, AR is integrated seamlessly, its just that unlike a few that interpreted extra IPs in the physical giving an AR advantage, VR is where you get total immersion...you take the heightened risk of going VR but with it comes the advantages of extra IPs, potentially better initiative and extra dice...

VR gives you those things for free.
But that doesn't mean that a Combat Hacker is unbalancing when he uses the additional passes he paid for in AR while supporting his team on site.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012