I guess you don't have to be entirely motionless when running VR, but you have to actively spend a free action to go from VR to AR, or wait a turn to act with the physical. And that's assuming you have some notice that your body is in danger. Otherwise, the sim rig overrides your motor functions as a safety feature.
Basically, you are naturally immobile, and unless you receive a vid feed of your body or are clued in by your buddies, you are unaware of the real world around you.
Plus a -6 perception, and -4 dice pool modifier is extremely limitating.
And WR never affected old school tortoise decking either.
Edit:
I think physical inititive is what is simply on your character sheet. I just don't think they wanted to state it that way, as it might harm some of your immersion in Shadowrun.
Full Version: AR Initiative passes
| QUOTE (2bit) | ||
I would almost agree with you about different initiative rolls if it weren't for this on pg. 230 regarding VR users and initiative:
This tells us a Virtual user doesn't roll both physical initiative and Matrix initiative. If they choose to interact with the meat world, they have to use physical initiative for an entire turn. If a VR user doesn't have two initiatives, I can't accept an AR user having two initiatives. And since a well coordinated Shadowrun team should all be using AR by default to communicate and share data with each other, then shadowrunners would have two initiatives by default. Since they don't make it a point anywhere to mention a character having two initiative scores in the same combat turn, I can't accept that it would be the normal situation for a shadowrunner on the job. There are, however, many mentions of characters sacrificing initiative when switching modes or perceptions (like the passage quoted above). Thus I would conclude a character at any one time has only one initiative score. The only reason to label initiative "matrix" or "physical" or "astral" is because of the attributes used to calculate it, ie. when you're virtual you use Response instead of Reaction. |
Hmmm...that is a good point! But, if you start out in VR (rollling matrix ini) then spend a turn using physical (therefore having to roll that), then go back to VR the next turn or whatever, I don't have a new matrix ini rolled for VR, so yes, I agree that only one initiative is being used per IP.
I may not have been clear on it before, but when I have players roll initiative, we somewhat have an idea whether they will need to be in multiple realms or not...so it is just a guess and helps to get the dice rolling out of the way at first.
So, going offline, which switching into AR is acceptably "offline", would take a free action and then you switch to your physical initiative. The part about a turn, to me, means that they runner can't flip back to VR the next IP, but would have to wait for the next turn, before being able to go back into VR. Granted, they can do matrix actions via AR in the meantime, but once you start concentrating on your meat body, you are stuck in physical initiatives for a full turn.
The advantage to doing this is that you don't have to take that "switching initiative" penalty when you stop concentrating on your meat body, so after a turn has expired, you can just stop concentrating and pick right back up in your VR initiative and IPs. So, you matrix initiative and extra IPs gained there are still in effect, just that you can't go back to them until the turn is up due to concentrating on your meat body.
That should mean, if you get 3IPs in both the physical and VR, and you are currently acting in the matrix, that if you start concentrating, you are stuck using physical actions (which would include the 1IP of AR) for a whole turn before stopping your concentration and going back to VR matrix actions...
| QUOTE (2bit) | ||
Correct, if you're astrally perceiving and you have WR3 or the Adept power Improved Reflexes 3, you have 4 IPs. Astrally projecting magicians have 3. But there are so many more things you can do with projecting that simply can't be accomplished with astral perception alone, that combat speed isn't an overpowering factor like it is in the Matrix. |
Ok, perceiving I understand...because you are still acting in the physical world, even though you are seeing a different view of it, in the astral plane. But projecting, you don't get the extra WR passes...that is how I understand it. Its basically the same as switching from low-light to thermo vision...you "see" things differently, but you are still acting in the physical world.
| QUOTE (2bit) | ||
I wouldn't, but yeah, I don't think there's a solution to please everybody. Limiting AR passes to 1 per turn basically says the interface is too slow to keep up with you, which may not jive with people. |
True...
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| PS. I'm pretty sure the word "physical" means "physical world" or "physical plane" and is not meant to imply "natural" or "unaugmented". A WR2 user's "meat body speed" is a lot faster than someone else's may be. |
Yeah, that's open to interpretation...unfortunately. To me, two characters with identical attributes, regardless of cyber/bioware, have identical "meat body speeds".
The "meat", is what is not cyber/bio, its just the plain ole attributes, with the increases due to race and/or karma being spent...but obviously that is not a definition everyone uses.
Deek said:
| QUOTE |
| The "meat", is what is not cyber/bio, its just the plain ole attributes, with the increases due to race and/or karma being spent...but obviously that is not a definition everyone uses. |
I still can not understand why people believe this. Bioware is meat! In fact, it is your meat! Bioware is no different than if your body had mutated naturally. The DNA is all yours, baby. If you want to get into semantics, then you have to accept bioware as meat body speed. Perhaps not cyberware, if semantics is, in fact, your game.
It is stupid to say that augs do not add to your IP in a situation because of semantics. The rules do not forbid it in this case. Inferences are not acceptable arguments, as these are rules we are talking about, not a secret that the game designers wanted us to figure out. Granted, the writers of the SR4 book probably did not graduate 8th grade, by my assesment of its structure.
It is also stupid to say it must be against the rules due to it supposedly being unfair. Some things aren't fair. There are a lot of spells that aren't at all fair, trust me, Madmartigan definitely knows.
It is also stupid to go by the handle "wiseman" and tag on a quote stating that fools claim to be wise. If you don't get it, let me break it down: If one claims to be wise, one is a fool. Thus, the name "wiseman" should be changed to "friggin' tool."
Nah, I really don't want to get into semantics, and I certainly realize that I crossed the lines and am now splitting hairs. I just think the intended use of "meat-body" refers to unaugmented, unenhanced, just regular body without any modifications...
And realize, I am limiting my scope of this purely to the AR IP discussion, so that may not be fair when generalizing outside of this scope...
I feel that there are plenty of areas where this intention of 1IP in AR is hinted towards and used between the lines, but multiple hints at that intention, unfortunately does not make it a rule. And there is enough vagueness and common sense to support either side of the debate...we are simply at an impass:)
And realize, I am limiting my scope of this purely to the AR IP discussion, so that may not be fair when generalizing outside of this scope...
I feel that there are plenty of areas where this intention of 1IP in AR is hinted towards and used between the lines, but multiple hints at that intention, unfortunately does not make it a rule. And there is enough vagueness and common sense to support either side of the debate...we are simply at an impass:)
| QUOTE (deek) |
| I just think the intended use of "meat-body" refers to unaugmented, unenhanced, just regular body without any modifications... |
You claimed that you are araound since SR1... so you should know that 'meat-body' is a term used for discerning between real world self and virtual/astral one... nothing more, nothing less.
| QUOTE (deek) |
| Hmmm...that is a good point! But, if you start out in VR (rollling matrix ini) then spend a turn using physical (therefore having to roll that), then go back to VR the next turn or whatever, I don't have a new matrix ini rolled for VR, so yes, I agree that only one initiative is being used per IP. I may not have been clear on it before, but when I have players roll initiative, we somewhat have an idea whether they will need to be in multiple realms or not...so it is just a guess and helps to get the dice rolling out of the way at first. So, going offline, which switching into AR is acceptably "offline", would take a free action and then you switch to your physical initiative. The part about a turn, to me, means that they runner can't flip back to VR the next IP, but would have to wait for the next turn, before being able to go back into VR. Granted, they can do matrix actions via AR in the meantime, but once you start concentrating on your meat body, you are stuck in physical initiatives for a full turn. The advantage to doing this is that you don't have to take that "switching initiative" penalty when you stop concentrating on your meat body, so after a turn has expired, you can just stop concentrating and pick right back up in your VR initiative and IPs. So, you matrix initiative and extra IPs gained there are still in effect, just that you can't go back to them until the turn is up due to concentrating on your meat body. That should mean, if you get 3IPs in both the physical and VR, and you are currently acting in the matrix, that if you start concentrating, you are stuck using physical actions (which would include the 1IP of AR) for a whole turn before stopping your concentration and going back to VR matrix actions... |
Umm, not sure I understand it as you wrote it so I'll chime in and see if it's the same thing youre talking about. Switching modes and concentrating on the physical world from VR are different things, not sure if I made that clear or not. The difference is that concentrating on the physical world doesn't involve you entering a command to the computer; so you can do it if you're being kept in VR against your will. Actually switching modes is always better if youre able to do it. When you concentrate from VR you lose your extra VR passes immediately and have to roll physical initiative next Turn. At the end of that turn the hacker can stop concentrating and gets to roll his matrix ini at the beginning of the subsequent turn. The book doesn't say whether or not reflex enhancements offset the loss of IPs. But whatever.
When you switch down from VR to AR you lose any extra IP's you gained from VR for the rest of the Combat Turn. But afaik you can switch modes as often as you have Free Actions to spend doing it.
When you switch up modes (AR to VR, CVR to HVR, etc) you don't gain extra IP's until next Combat Turn. Again, the book doesn't say whether physical reflex enhancements offset this loss.
When you switch modes during a combat turn, your initiative score doesn't change until the start of the next Combat Turn. Whatever initiative score you start the turn with is the score you're going to end it with. only IP's are lost when you switch modes.
I think this means that if the character has WR2 active, they can start in Hot Sim, switch down to AR in IP1, do some physical action in IP2, switch back to Hot Sim in IP3, and start the next round with Hot Sim initiative. I think it also means munchkins with WR2 will want to start every round in whatever mode gives them the best initiative.
When you switch down from VR to AR you lose any extra IP's you gained from VR for the rest of the Combat Turn. But afaik you can switch modes as often as you have Free Actions to spend doing it.
When you switch up modes (AR to VR, CVR to HVR, etc) you don't gain extra IP's until next Combat Turn. Again, the book doesn't say whether physical reflex enhancements offset this loss.
When you switch modes during a combat turn, your initiative score doesn't change until the start of the next Combat Turn. Whatever initiative score you start the turn with is the score you're going to end it with. only IP's are lost when you switch modes.
I think this means that if the character has WR2 active, they can start in Hot Sim, switch down to AR in IP1, do some physical action in IP2, switch back to Hot Sim in IP3, and start the next round with Hot Sim initiative. I think it also means munchkins with WR2 will want to start every round in whatever mode gives them the best initiative.
| QUOTE (ethinos) |
| Rules tell you what you can and can't do. You don't use the gray area to modify the rules to your favor. |
and who said im trying to modify it in my favor?
Rules say to use your physical Reaction and Initiative for AR.
Initiative is described on pg 52 as being Reaction + Intuition.
However, some people are reading Initiative as including Initiative Passes when in fact, it doesn't.
Whether they want to use natural Initiative or augmented (Initiative boosters, not additional passes), I don't know.
But the flavor of everything points to 1IP for AR. You want to be quicker in the Matrix, go VR. Want to be the fastest, go hot sim...and risk your brain.
Initiative is described on pg 52 as being Reaction + Intuition.
However, some people are reading Initiative as including Initiative Passes when in fact, it doesn't.
Whether they want to use natural Initiative or augmented (Initiative boosters, not additional passes), I don't know.
But the flavor of everything points to 1IP for AR. You want to be quicker in the Matrix, go VR. Want to be the fastest, go hot sim...and risk your brain.
| QUOTE (ethinos @ Jul 27 2006, 07:16 PM) |
| Rules say to use your physical Reaction and Initiative for AR. Initiative is described on pg 52 as being Reaction + Intuition. However, some people are reading Initiative as including Initiative Passes when in fact, it doesn't. Whether they want to use natural Initiative or augmented (Initiative boosters, not additional passes), I don't know. But the flavor of everything points to 1IP for AR. You want to be quicker in the Matrix, go VR. Want to be the fastest, go hot sim...and risk your brain. |
But since it does not state AR passes as being 1 like it states with VR and even Astral init , the assumption has been that augmentation can be used just liek any other physical encounter. That's where that's coming from.
| QUOTE |
| However, some people are reading Initiative as including Initiative Passes when in fact, it doesn't. |
what "in fact"? the only fact is that the text say nothing about IP for AR at all...
| QUOTE ("RAW Pg. 132") |
| Initiative Initiative determines the order in which characters act, as well as how often they act during a single Combat Turn. Initiative is based on two factors: Initiative Score and Initiative Passes. |
Or : If the book says "Inititative" it's Initiative Score AND Initiative Passes, if it says "Initiative Score" it's only Intitiative Score. Simple.
And for the flavour argument : those (few) flavour pieces (probably) assume a NORMAL (old-fashioned) decker/hacker without heavy cyber - on the other hand, a lot of the flavour in other sections points to cybered runners making use of the AR matrix at the same speed as they interact with normal physical reality.
So flavour isn't decided on this one.
And, of course, AR is NOT old turtoise mode - it was designed to be better, faster, easier ... and abuseable
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
You claimed that you are araound since SR1... so you should know that 'meat-body' is a term used for discerning between real world self and virtual/astral one... nothing more, nothing less. |
I must correct you, I may have mistated that before, but my history is that I played/ran back in SR1, 10 or so years ago, and then just got into SR4 about a month or two ago (recently).
So, all of SR2 and SR3 is unknown to me, and my hiatus of over a decade does not help the memory:) So what I should know and what I do know, are obviously not the same, given those circumstances.
As for meat-body...I have read many opinions on what that may refer to...so I really don't know what is "right", simply what I interpret...which is subject to change as I receive more feedback and reread things in the RAW.
So, I am fine with retracting my "intended use" statement if what you say is true...not near the RAW, so I'm not able to look it up at this time.
| QUOTE (2bit) | ||
Umm, not sure I understand it as you wrote it so I'll chime in and see if it's the same thing youre talking about. Switching modes and concentrating on the physical world from VR are different things, not sure if I made that clear or not. |
Yeah, I am in agreement with you there. I may have just been convoluted in my previous comments. Switching modes and concentrating on the physical are two different things.
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| The difference is that concentrating on the physical world doesn't involve you entering a command to the computer; so you can do it if you're being kept in VR against your will. Actually switching modes is always better if youre able to do it. When you concentrate from VR you lose your extra VR passes immediately and have to roll physical initiative next Turn. At the end of that turn the hacker can stop concentrating and gets to roll his matrix ini at the beginning of the subsequent turn. The book doesn't say whether or not reflex enhancements offset the loss of IPs. But whatever. |
Yeah, I am thinking I see a point in there that I missed before. Because VR is using matrix IPs and AR is based of the physical initiative, the only time you would lose or gain extra VR passes is when you are switching between CVR and HVR, as those are on the "matrix track".
Now, I think it is semantics on the losing extra VR passes when concentrating in the physical. Where you are having the player roll physical ini next turn, I just had him roll it ahead of time. And when you have him roll his matrix ini again when he switches back, I just had him use his initial roll...so I think we are accomplishing the same thing, you are just letting the player roll ini again...not a big deal.
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| When you switch down from VR to AR you lose any extra IP's you gained from VR for the rest of the Combat Turn. But afaik you can switch modes as often as you have Free Actions to spend doing it. |
I continue to think of IPs as being in the physical, matrix or astral track. So, when switching from VR to AR (as a free action), you don't really lose VR IPs, you simply move to the IP track you have in the physical world. AR just happens to use that physical track, even though you may perform a matrix action with it.
So, if you have WR2 and 3 physical IPs, but start out in HVR and perform a matrix action(s) in IP 1, you can start out IP 2 with a free action to switch down to AR mode, and then perform two standard actions in IP 2. You could then use a free action to switch back to VR for two standard action in IP 3.
I'm going to have to reread some rules here, because I am not 100% clear on the loss of extra IPs. Seeing I am thinking with initiative tracks in mind, the only times you are losing or gaining IPs in the physical is if you turn on/off WR during combat or you switch between CVR/HVR during combat...but not when you move from using matrix ini to physical ini...that might be a misinterpretationon my part.
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| When you switch up modes (AR to VR, CVR to HVR, etc) you don't gain extra IP's until next Combat Turn. Again, the book doesn't say whether physical reflex enhancements offset this loss. |
Yeah, this is still a sticking point right now, for me. When you move from AR to VR, you are actually moving from physical ini to matrix ini. So, your matrix ini didn't exist at the start of the combat turn...so, when you roll matrix ini during combat because you switch modes, you are saying that you need to wait to act until the next turn.
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| When you switch modes during a combat turn, your initiative score doesn't change until the start of the next Combat Turn. Whatever initiative score you start the turn with is the score you're going to end it with. only IP's are lost when you switch modes. |
Really making me think about this. I see what you are saying and I think I am swaying away from thinking of IPs in "tracks". I think you are right with the idea of starting with an ini score and ending with the same one...starting to make sense with the idea of switching.
So, it seems it would be to a runner's benefit, if he knows he is going to switch modes, to try and save a free action until the end of his last IP...So, the statement under initiative, where it talks about keeping one score for the entire combat, really isn't true when you factor in switching modes. You actually may need to re-roll initiatives if you are switching modes frequently, correct?
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| I think this means that if the character has WR2 active, they can start in Hot Sim, switch down to AR in IP1, do some physical action in IP2, switch back to Hot Sim in IP3, and start the next round with Hot Sim initiative. I think it also means munchkins with WR2 will want to start every round in whatever mode gives them the best initiative. |
Yeah, I am starting to think so as well...in your example, its only when you leave and then come back to VR where you would lose those extra IPs. For some reason, mode switching is confusing me right now...time for bed, I suppose:)
Ok, I have re-read initiative on pages 230 and 132...
I think the "hacker" with WR does end up getting an advantage with IPs in a combat turn, just not in AR. Here are a couple examples with my current understanding of the RAW.
EX1:
Character with WR2 and the capability of going HVR, meaning he gets 3IPs total in either environment. Regardless of whether he starts with matrix actions or physical actions, the character has a total of 3IPs in the given combat turn. He is still limited to acting in AR only in IP 1, but by using free actions, he can switch between AR and HVR to have actions in the physical or matrix with no penalties. Granted, if the character is in AR for IPs 2 or 3, he can only act in the physical. But, if he is in HVR, he can act in the physical, but he has to take the -4 penalty AND be stuck doing physical actions for a full turn. So, obviously, it makes sense for this character to use a free action to just switch modes, instead of staying in HVR and trying to do physical actions. The only time this should really come into play is when IC has locked him into HVR, IMO. Any other time, he would want to simply switch over to AR and commence his physical actions.
EX2:
Character with no WR, but still has the capability of going HVR. So, he only has 1IP in the physical, but 3IPs in the matrix. If the character starts out in HVR, he could use that free action to switch to AR and get two standard actions, either physical or matrix, with no penalties. If he switches to AR anytime after IP 1, then he has lost the rest of his IPs. Now, the character could stay in VR and try acting in the physical that first IP, be he is acting with the penalty plus he is stuck acting in the physical for one turn, also giving up his other two IPs for the turn...probably not a good idea.
Now, if he starts in AR, he can act in either environment, but if he choses to switch modes, those extra IPs aren't gained until the next combat turn.
So, in essence, the WR hacker, is indeed "faster", because his IPs don't change between matrix and physical. But, he is not any faster in AR, he just has the ability to use his free actions to switch modes and not lose IPs as he does so. So, instead of my thinking of physical IPs and matrix IPs, we really just need to think total IPs in the combat turn and not different initiative tracks.
Also, initiative scores are not re-rolled. You simply add/subtract the difference. So, if I have a physical initiative of 8 and a matrix intiative of 10, all I am doing is applying a +2/-2 to my score as I switch modes...in EX 1, there is no difference in IPs, because the character always gets 3IPs, so I am simply adding 2 when in VR and subtracting 2 when moving back to AR (physical initiative). Plus, I only roll once (I'll have to change this in my games), using whatever initiative I start the combat turn in.
Now, I am still limiting AR actions to 1IP, but there is obviously an advantage to having the WR, as my IPs are higher and therefore I don't lose IPs during a combat turn. The key is that I just have to use free actions to switch modes...
This then doesn't make the cybered up hacker better or faster in the matrix, as he still has to go VR in order to get those extra IPs, and risk himself as any other hacker would. But, it does make him a lot better than a non-cybered hacker when one has to perform in the physical world and the matrix during the same combat turn...which actually makes sense to me. The non-cybered hacker is going to be losing IPs or be delayed as he switches modes, while the cybered hacker, maintaining high IPs in both realms, is simply able to swtich modes and keep on trucking!
Still, it doesn't make him any faster in AR (which maintains balance) and he does still have to risk his body in VR if he wants to get the extra IPs there...
And going back to 2bit's comments, any character would benefit, from a purely initiative score basis, on starting any combat round in the mode that gives him the highest dice pool...because as you swtich modes, you aren't re-rolling any dice, you are just adding/subtracting the difference between initiatives.
I think the "hacker" with WR does end up getting an advantage with IPs in a combat turn, just not in AR. Here are a couple examples with my current understanding of the RAW.
EX1:
Character with WR2 and the capability of going HVR, meaning he gets 3IPs total in either environment. Regardless of whether he starts with matrix actions or physical actions, the character has a total of 3IPs in the given combat turn. He is still limited to acting in AR only in IP 1, but by using free actions, he can switch between AR and HVR to have actions in the physical or matrix with no penalties. Granted, if the character is in AR for IPs 2 or 3, he can only act in the physical. But, if he is in HVR, he can act in the physical, but he has to take the -4 penalty AND be stuck doing physical actions for a full turn. So, obviously, it makes sense for this character to use a free action to just switch modes, instead of staying in HVR and trying to do physical actions. The only time this should really come into play is when IC has locked him into HVR, IMO. Any other time, he would want to simply switch over to AR and commence his physical actions.
EX2:
Character with no WR, but still has the capability of going HVR. So, he only has 1IP in the physical, but 3IPs in the matrix. If the character starts out in HVR, he could use that free action to switch to AR and get two standard actions, either physical or matrix, with no penalties. If he switches to AR anytime after IP 1, then he has lost the rest of his IPs. Now, the character could stay in VR and try acting in the physical that first IP, be he is acting with the penalty plus he is stuck acting in the physical for one turn, also giving up his other two IPs for the turn...probably not a good idea.
Now, if he starts in AR, he can act in either environment, but if he choses to switch modes, those extra IPs aren't gained until the next combat turn.
So, in essence, the WR hacker, is indeed "faster", because his IPs don't change between matrix and physical. But, he is not any faster in AR, he just has the ability to use his free actions to switch modes and not lose IPs as he does so. So, instead of my thinking of physical IPs and matrix IPs, we really just need to think total IPs in the combat turn and not different initiative tracks.
Also, initiative scores are not re-rolled. You simply add/subtract the difference. So, if I have a physical initiative of 8 and a matrix intiative of 10, all I am doing is applying a +2/-2 to my score as I switch modes...in EX 1, there is no difference in IPs, because the character always gets 3IPs, so I am simply adding 2 when in VR and subtracting 2 when moving back to AR (physical initiative). Plus, I only roll once (I'll have to change this in my games), using whatever initiative I start the combat turn in.
Now, I am still limiting AR actions to 1IP, but there is obviously an advantage to having the WR, as my IPs are higher and therefore I don't lose IPs during a combat turn. The key is that I just have to use free actions to switch modes...
This then doesn't make the cybered up hacker better or faster in the matrix, as he still has to go VR in order to get those extra IPs, and risk himself as any other hacker would. But, it does make him a lot better than a non-cybered hacker when one has to perform in the physical world and the matrix during the same combat turn...which actually makes sense to me. The non-cybered hacker is going to be losing IPs or be delayed as he switches modes, while the cybered hacker, maintaining high IPs in both realms, is simply able to swtich modes and keep on trucking!
Still, it doesn't make him any faster in AR (which maintains balance) and he does still have to risk his body in VR if he wants to get the extra IPs there...
And going back to 2bit's comments, any character would benefit, from a purely initiative score basis, on starting any combat round in the mode that gives him the highest dice pool...because as you swtich modes, you aren't re-rolling any dice, you are just adding/subtracting the difference between initiatives.
| QUOTE (deek) |
| Ok, I have re-read initiative on pages 230 and 132... I think the "hacker" with WR does end up getting an advantage with IPs in a combat turn, just not in AR. Here are a couple examples with my current understanding of the RAW. |
Welcome to the other side of the fence!
Prediction: Deek jumps back over to the other side in 7... no wait, 6 more pages!
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) | ||
Welcome to the other side of the fence! Prediction: Deek jumps back over to the other side in 7... no wait, 6 more pages! |
Heh...well, I still maintain the fact that you are only receiving 1IP with AR, which is still what the main issue has been between the sides. Just after 2bit's comments and really re-reading and thinking through the idea of switching initiatives in different scenarios, I found that my method of maintaining separate inititiative tracks was not aligning with the RAW.
A cybered hacker can get more IPs per turn (when switching modes), but can't just sit in AR and reap all the safety factors plus get all those physical passes in AR...he actually has to expend free actions to switch modes, moving back and forth from physical to VR. And there are still drawback when the IPs he gets in physical are different than what he gets in VR (per the Switching Initiative rules on page 132).
I was just forced to refine my understanding...a cybered hacker in AR, is still going to be limited to one IP of matrix actions if he doesn't spend a free action to switch modes to VR in that combat turn.
So, what are the odds or over/under on that prediction?
Well, you're new idea feels like it violates the flavour even more than either of the original ones : Switching between AR and VR without losing IPs ? Ummm .... you know what an ASIST unit is, right ? It suppresses the signals between your brain and your body in VR to prevent you from hurting yourself. To stand (or even sit!) upright, you have to concentrate (!!!) on your body, and there's always a disorientation period when switching. This is why RAW has you lose any remaining IPs that turn. Instant switching like that would be even easier to abuse ...
| QUOTE (Phobos) |
| Well, you're new idea feels like it violates the flavour even more than either of the original ones : Switching between AR and VR without losing IPs ? Ummm .... you know what an ASIST unit is, right ? It suppresses the signals between your brain and your body in VR to prevent you from hurting yourself. To stand (or even sit!) upright, you have to concentrate (!!!) on your body, and there's always a disorientation period when switching. This is why RAW has you lose any remaining IPs that turn. Instant switching like that would be even easier to abuse ... |
Ahhh...I think I found more refinement. Page 229 is clearing this up, for me.
It states that if you are switching from AR (which would be physical ini) to VR, you don't receive the extra IPs until next turn. And it says that if you switch from VR to AR, you lose the remaining IPs gained from VR...
But it seems like it is open to allow you to at least continue with your physical IPs, if they are not increasing. So, that gives a cybered hacker a little more speed, but not as much as I thought before.
So, the WR2 hacker, capable of HVR, starting in HVR, could act in the matrix in IPs 1 and 2, then use a free action at the end of IP2 to switch to AR and take a physical action on that third pass, due to also have 3IPs in the physical world.
But, it doesn't work the other way around, because he only gets 1IP due to AR, and switching to VR would subdue those extra passes until next combat turn.
I think this works due to the statement on page 230 about taking physical actions while in VR. Its says you can either go offline OR concentrate on your meat-body and spend the turn using physical ini with penalties.
And jacking out (free action), logging out (simple action) or going offline/AR (free action), does not cause any sort of disorientation period, so I don't see any problem with the "instant switching" from VR to AR and not losing any IPs, if you had the same (but not more) left in the physical side...or is this being abusive as well?
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) | ||
what "in fact"? the only fact is that the text say nothing about IP for AR at all... |
Which means, you don't get any carried over into AR.
| QUOTE (Phobos) | ||
Or : If the book says "Inititative" it's Initiative Score AND Initiative Passes, if it says "Initiative Score" it's only Intitiative Score. Simple. And for the flavour argument : those (few) flavour pieces (probably) assume a NORMAL (old-fashioned) decker/hacker without heavy cyber - on the other hand, a lot of the flavour in other sections points to cybered runners making use of the AR matrix at the same speed as they interact with normal physical reality. So flavour isn't decided on this one. And, of course, AR is NOT old turtoise mode - it was designed to be better, faster, easier ... and abuseable |
That section of text describes the initiative "phase". This is separate from the character's physical initiative, which I stated before, is specifically stated on your character's sheet.
The problem with the rules on 132, is that they are designed solely for melee and ranged combat, not AR or even Matrix combat turns.
You can make use of the AR feeds (which are basically extra senses) with all your many possible extra initiative passes made possible via wired reflexes, but actually hacking through AR is different and more labor intensive.
The flavor text is describing how AR and VR work. Everything says VR is faster. You don't follow the rules and go against the canon material when the rules are a bit vague.
The new AR system was meant to allow deckers to become a part of the group and participate physically on the run. AR lets them be consciously aware of the real world and even able to interact with it at the same time, but at half the effectiveness of VR.
| QUOTE (deek) |
| And going back to 2bit's comments, any character would benefit, from a purely initiative score basis, on starting any combat round in the mode that gives him the highest dice pool...because as you swtich modes, you aren't re-rolling any dice, you are just adding/subtracting the difference between initiatives. |
Well, obviously the slump effect is going to hamper a hacker's attempt to exploit VR switching to get a better initiative score in the physical world, unless he doesn't care whether or not he starts the turn prone. But it could be useful in the opposite case.
I still think a wired hacker in AR should be able to use all his passes for AR if he wants, but I don't think they made the differences between modes appreciable enough.
Maybe if you deny a hacker the use of the Cybercombat skill when in AR? He has to roll system instead, as if it were an agent?
I still think a wired hacker in AR should be able to use all his passes for AR if he wants, but I don't think they made the differences between modes appreciable enough.
Maybe if you deny a hacker the use of the Cybercombat skill when in AR? He has to roll system instead, as if it were an agent?
I think I am starting to set in the idea that when you are in AR, any mode switches to VR are increasing your IP count, and therefore aren't gained until the next turn. So, AR is set to one IP.
When you are in VR and switch to AR, you lose the extra Matrix IPs, because you decreased down to 1IP in AR, but if you had any physical IPs left, up to the amount of VR passes you started the combat turn with, you can finish your combat turn with those.
So, the WR hacker has an advantage over the non-WR hacker, but only when he is switching modes from VR to AR and carrying out normal physical actions the remainder of the combat turn.
I am still trying to work within the existing text without adding anything new. I think it is still important to maintain the flow of AR --> CVR --> HVR regarding speed and risk, but it seems that I am open to allowing that cybered hacker to get a few more physical non-matrix actions when switching modes back to AR...again, if he has an IP available and was not in a pass greater than the total passes he started the combat turn with.
When you are in VR and switch to AR, you lose the extra Matrix IPs, because you decreased down to 1IP in AR, but if you had any physical IPs left, up to the amount of VR passes you started the combat turn with, you can finish your combat turn with those.
So, the WR hacker has an advantage over the non-WR hacker, but only when he is switching modes from VR to AR and carrying out normal physical actions the remainder of the combat turn.
I am still trying to work within the existing text without adding anything new. I think it is still important to maintain the flow of AR --> CVR --> HVR regarding speed and risk, but it seems that I am open to allowing that cybered hacker to get a few more physical non-matrix actions when switching modes back to AR...again, if he has an IP available and was not in a pass greater than the total passes he started the combat turn with.
| QUOTE (ethinos) | ||||
Which means, you don't get any carried over into AR. |
or not.
it can be either way as they dont say anything at all.
and dont give me anything about it being implied, if its not spelled out, its not a rule.
atleast not a "enforceable" one...
It says to use physical Reaction and Initiative (the attributes). As it says to use only that, its implied that nothing else carries over. Period.
Rules cannot account for every variable or instance. They can be vague, and they can imply conditions. Implications do count.
Rules cannot account for every variable or instance. They can be vague, and they can imply conditions. Implications do count.
| QUOTE (ethinos) |
| It says to use physical Reaction and Initiative (the attributes). As it says to use only that, its implied that nothing else carries over. Period. |
I don't read the same thing at all :
| QUOTE |
| Augmented Initiative If you’re using augmented reality, you’re acting at regular meat-body speeds—use your physical Reaction and Initiative as normal (see Initiative, p. 132). |
My guess is : the regular and normal meat-body speed for a Sammy is his boosted once (is there any example were the boosted initiative is not implied to be the normal one ?).
There is three word qualifying the initiative : augmented, unaugmented, regular (or normal).
They could'couldn't say augmented (because it would have no sense for character without any augmentation). That's why the text is crappy. I think the text would have been much easier and clearer if they meant unaugmented - they would just have say "unaugmented".
By the way I must agree it's how I understand the rules, but I don't think it's compatible with the spirit of the world which is : VR should be faster than AR.
| QUOTE (ethinos) |
| It says to use physical Reaction and Initiative (the attributes). As it says to use only that, its implied that nothing else carries over. Period. Rules cannot account for every variable or instance. They can be vague, and they can imply conditions. Implications do count. |
and then we are back at the "(see initative, p. 132)" quote.
to me thats the writer doing a bit of space saving given that AR uses physical initiative just like any other physical actions. and given that there are no bit of text that explisitly say "your however limited to using only 1 IP on matrix actions", or anything similar (and its the perfect place to put it to carve it in stone), i say WR (or similar) count. extra IP's and all.
VR initiative gets a much bigger text because they take time to sum up the bits that are floating around in VR section earlier in the book.
if the writer(s) wanted to make it perfectly clear that you can only use one IP for matrix actions while using AR, they have page after page to say so. but they dont.
i just wish that the only person posting on dumpshock, and is a known playtester of SR4, didnt hate the new version so much that he will not set foot on this part of the forums. then we may get some info about how the combo of AR and WR was managed in their playtests.
or did it show up in bull's demonstration games at gencon?
or the most frightening of all, they never tought of this at all as they didnt use a character with that combo in their playtests?
hmm, looking at the premade chars in SR4 i only find reaction enhancers in use on those that have a heavy interaction with the matrix or rigging. and that only adds to reaction, not to IP.
so it may be that the book do not touch on the AR+WR combo because it honestly never showed up in playtests.
Could someone from the "more than 1IP in AR" camp give an example of a character switching modes during combat? I know that there are only a few times that a character would want to do this if they can act in multiple times via AR, but lets say that you end up starting the turn in a firefight, and in your 2nd or 3rd IP, you need to switch to VR in order to hack probe a system (obviously, AR would not be the place you would want to do this, and it is also kind of crazy to try it in a gunfight, but for sake of the example...)
So, how would this change flow, assuming multiple IPs in AR, but switching to VR mid-turn?
[As an aside, my personal stance is still limiting AR to one IP, but there is no solid ruling one way or the other, so I am leaving that argument behind. The issue that is now at hand for me, is the whole idea of IP when changing modes to and from AR and how those are carried out.]
So, how would this change flow, assuming multiple IPs in AR, but switching to VR mid-turn?
[As an aside, my personal stance is still limiting AR to one IP, but there is no solid ruling one way or the other, so I am leaving that argument behind. The issue that is now at hand for me, is the whole idea of IP when changing modes to and from AR and how those are carried out.]
my personal take on that would be to remove any remaning IP's if the mode switched to have less of them then the mode switched from.
basicly im using the "switching modes" text of page 229, but applying it both ways. going from higher to lower IP mode allways costs you right there, while going the other way (low to high) do not give an effect until the next turn.
so if AR is higher, it will cost you to switch to VR, while switching back will not give you any benifit until the next turn.
basicly im using the "switching modes" text of page 229, but applying it both ways. going from higher to lower IP mode allways costs you right there, while going the other way (low to high) do not give an effect until the next turn.
so if AR is higher, it will cost you to switch to VR, while switching back will not give you any benifit until the next turn.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| or the most frightening of all, they never tought of this at all as they didnt use a character with that combo in their playtests? hmm, looking at the premade chars in SR4 i only find reaction enhancers in use on those that have a heavy interaction with the matrix or rigging. and that only adds to reaction, not to IP. so it may be that the book do not touch on the AR+WR combo because it honestly never showed up in playtests. |
That is a very good point...which may explain why there hasn't been any official feedback on this issue.
In all honestly, I currently don't have any players that have WR and focus on hacking. The hackers used their BP on commlinks and programs, while the WR users were focused on other skills, cyberware and equipment. Granted, we do limit AR actions to one IP and that has been played through and seems to be fine.
The thing that has not occured yet is players in combat switching modes and changing the amount of IPs mid-turn. The hackers either are just in the firefight or accept the fact that they can have one IP in AR to accomplish matrix actions. While everyone else has no desire to switch into VR during a firefight...
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| my personal take on that would be to remove any remaning IP's if the mode switched to have less of them then the mode switched from. basicly im using the "switching modes" text of page 229, but applying it both ways. going from higher to lower IP mode allways costs you right there, while going the other way (low to high) do not give an effect until the next turn. so if AR is higher, it will cost you to switch to VR, while switching back will not give you any benifit until the next turn. |
Ok...that is basically what I was thinking as well, with the caveat that I am limiting to 1IP in AR, so switching from AR to VR, is always an increase in IPs and therefore no benefit until next turn.
Switching from VR to AR though, is just as you described, just that if the switch occurs after the first IP, you don't have any AR actions left, but can at least finish out the turn with non-matrix actions...
I've avoided weighing in on this one for a long time. Partly as I've been very busy and partly as I really don't feel the rules are very clear on this at all. I actually voted Null, as I couldn't make up my mind, back when this thread only had 1 page.
Reading the many posts that have been made I have fallen more firmly into the AR allows 1 IP camp, not because the RAW explicitly states as much or even adequately implies as much, but because of the fluff surrounding VR.
All the fluff suggests that VR is faster, which is fine with me. If the hacker is running with the team in the meat then he can stay with them if they go behind jamming screens or wi-fi retardant paint and suchlike, and pick up on any hidden nodes the group might come across. If something goes down in the matrix (IC, a silent alarm or a previously unhacked camera - see the flavour text at the beginning of the wireless chapter) he can drop quickly into VR for the extra IP, and hope that he can deal with it before his buddies get overrun by guards. I simply don't buy that limiting AR to 1 IP discourages hackers venturing places in the meat, sorry. If your hacker char doesn't want to then he doesn't have
to.
Personally I feel WR are good enough just working in the meat, without muscling in on hacker territory. I would permit the reaction boost to apply though, just not the extra IPs. I guess when I think of wired reflexes I think in terms of a reflex action, such as the escape reflex when you jerk your hand away from a source of pain. It occurs without thinking. Of course this doesn't jibe too well with the RAW "the world seems to move in slow motion", but I'm a biologist, so I'm allowed to be contrary.
Reading the many posts that have been made I have fallen more firmly into the AR allows 1 IP camp, not because the RAW explicitly states as much or even adequately implies as much, but because of the fluff surrounding VR.
All the fluff suggests that VR is faster, which is fine with me. If the hacker is running with the team in the meat then he can stay with them if they go behind jamming screens or wi-fi retardant paint and suchlike, and pick up on any hidden nodes the group might come across. If something goes down in the matrix (IC, a silent alarm or a previously unhacked camera - see the flavour text at the beginning of the wireless chapter) he can drop quickly into VR for the extra IP, and hope that he can deal with it before his buddies get overrun by guards. I simply don't buy that limiting AR to 1 IP discourages hackers venturing places in the meat, sorry. If your hacker char doesn't want to then he doesn't have
to.
Personally I feel WR are good enough just working in the meat, without muscling in on hacker territory. I would permit the reaction boost to apply though, just not the extra IPs. I guess when I think of wired reflexes I think in terms of a reflex action, such as the escape reflex when you jerk your hand away from a source of pain. It occurs without thinking. Of course this doesn't jibe too well with the RAW "the world seems to move in slow motion", but I'm a biologist, so I'm allowed to be contrary.
Hobgoblin's signature:
| QUOTE |
| the worlds biggest typo... and one pain in the ass to boot! |
I don't understand this. Perhaps I'm slow, but does anyone find this funny? Even in the least bit? I do not even see a typo in what hobgoblin claims to be the "worlds biggest typo." I find it ironic, however, that there is a typo in the line claiming that the world's biggest typo is coming up.
Plus, Samael's Ghost loves the cock.
The last line was thrown in as revenge against SG.
He really does love the cock. He just doesn't want everyone to know it online.
He really does love the cock. He just doesn't want everyone to know it online.
| QUOTE (Madmartigan) |
| The last line was thrown in as revenge against SG. He really does love the cock. He just doesn't want everyone to know it online. |
Roosters need lovin' too.
| QUOTE (Madmartigan) | ||
Hobgoblin's signature:
I don't understand this. Perhaps I'm slow, but does anyone find this funny? Even in the least bit? I do not even see a typo in what hobgoblin claims to be the "worlds biggest typo." I find it ironic, however, that there is a typo in the line claiming that the world's biggest typo is coming up. |
i find it funny, but then my humor is very personal. and very full of irony and sarcasm about me.
let me give you a hint: "negative self-image".
and btw, i put it in there after a period of time where every post i made had some kind of obvious typo in it. and i just left it in there, because there was no comment on it. until now, that is...
This post is not arguing on what are the rule but what I think they should be. With the time I wrote that I didn't follow the thread which has ... changed lol !
Effect of the boosted reflexes of any kind
Initiative is mostly about time of reaction (not the reaction attribute) which is very basically determined by adding
1 the time taken by the input stimuli to arrive in the nervous center
2 the time taken by the treatment of the nervous center to elaborate a reaction
3 the time taken to convey the reaction signal from the nervous center to reaction organ
I just see two case about all the booster reflex :
a) either they accelerate all the step
b) or they just accelerate the speed of the signal
From both the effect of the wired reflexes and the description, I think it's the 1 first case.
EDIT : Of course for the 2nd case its just the IP in AR - forget everything under !
Different kinds of connections
Difference between AR (directly neural- trode, jack ...) and AR (physical - gloves and so on)
AR neural goes from : comlink - brain - comlink
AR physical goes from : comlink - brain - nerve - hand moving (muscular movement) - comlink.
Thus it's a lot longer (the muscular movement much more time than the other steps)
Difference between VR and AR :
Both are doing the same way : comlink - brain - comlink
The difference is the wideness of the signal : AR use a small array of stimuli (sensorial stimuli = the 5 senses), while VR use a huge array of sensation including the 5 senses.
VR gives a much more powerful capacity of treating the stimuli to elaborate a reaction.
From all this, I think the rules should do :
The AR "physical" should stay slow ! max 1 Ip. with malus of 1 or 2 dices on all matrix action demanding quickness.
The AR "directly neural" should take advantage of the boosted reflexes, thus using the physical initiative and ip's with augmentation if any.
The VR cold should take advantage of the boosted reflexes too, thus using matrix initiative with the bonus of the boosted reflexes, and 2 IP's plus ip's with augmentation if any.
The VR hot : the same with one more IP and the +2 bonus on all actions.
My feelings about it
I do like the Idea and find it logical but the game play could be horrible, like a SR3 matrix come back :
the hacker makes is round, ok guy you have 15 minutes to kill before he finish his 6 actions ...
Effect of the boosted reflexes of any kind
Initiative is mostly about time of reaction (not the reaction attribute) which is very basically determined by adding
1 the time taken by the input stimuli to arrive in the nervous center
2 the time taken by the treatment of the nervous center to elaborate a reaction
3 the time taken to convey the reaction signal from the nervous center to reaction organ
I just see two case about all the booster reflex :
a) either they accelerate all the step
b) or they just accelerate the speed of the signal
From both the effect of the wired reflexes and the description, I think it's the 1 first case.
EDIT : Of course for the 2nd case its just the IP in AR - forget everything under !
Different kinds of connections
Difference between AR (directly neural- trode, jack ...) and AR (physical - gloves and so on)
AR neural goes from : comlink - brain - comlink
AR physical goes from : comlink - brain - nerve - hand moving (muscular movement) - comlink.
Thus it's a lot longer (the muscular movement much more time than the other steps)
Difference between VR and AR :
Both are doing the same way : comlink - brain - comlink
The difference is the wideness of the signal : AR use a small array of stimuli (sensorial stimuli = the 5 senses), while VR use a huge array of sensation including the 5 senses.
VR gives a much more powerful capacity of treating the stimuli to elaborate a reaction.
From all this, I think the rules should do :
The AR "physical" should stay slow ! max 1 Ip. with malus of 1 or 2 dices on all matrix action demanding quickness.
The AR "directly neural" should take advantage of the boosted reflexes, thus using the physical initiative and ip's with augmentation if any.
The VR cold should take advantage of the boosted reflexes too, thus using matrix initiative with the bonus of the boosted reflexes, and 2 IP's plus ip's with augmentation if any.
The VR hot : the same with one more IP and the +2 bonus on all actions.
My feelings about it
I do like the Idea and find it logical but the game play could be horrible, like a SR3 matrix come back :
the hacker makes is round, ok guy you have 15 minutes to kill before he finish his 6 actions ...
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