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Rajaat99
QUOTE (Brahm @ Jul 29 2006, 04:28 PM)
QUOTE (Rajaat99)
It doesn't seem to be as realistic when you simplify things.

Even though that is often illusionary, and the reverse is just as easily true.
QUOTE (Rajaat99)
I don't like the "feel" of it, it seems like a less gritty, more campy, Shadowrun.

Because there is colour on the pages? Because it isn't the slightly fuzzy print on dull pulp type paper? Is it that asthetics? Because the game itself is, well, there is that word grit again. It is about as useful as saying some game is more 'strawberry' than another game, or that a game is really 'waxy'. Because it doesn't actually described much by itself, and can have so many different meanings.

I'd like you explain the "illusion" more. And explain how the reverse is true.
Color? No. The print? No. Asthetics? No.

grit·ty
adj. grit·ti·er, grit·ti·est
1. Containing, covered with, or resembling grit.
2. Showing resolution and fortitude; ex: a gritty decision.

grit
n.
1. Minute rough granules, as of sand or stone.
1. The texture or fineness of sand or stone used in grinding.
1. A coarse hard sandstone used for making grindstones and millstones.
1. Informal. Indomitable spirit.

Also, I don't like skills maxing out and I don't like the cursing. I don't like reading the opening story and having it filled with garbage.
Brahm
QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ Jul 30 2006, 06:06 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Jul 29 2006, 04:28 PM)
QUOTE (Rajaat99)
It doesn't seem to be as realistic when you simplify things.

Even though that is often illusionary, and the reverse is just as easily true.
QUOTE (Rajaat99)
I don't like the "feel" of it, it seems like a less gritty, more campy, Shadowrun.

Because there is colour on the pages? Because it isn't the slightly fuzzy print on dull pulp type paper? Is it that asthetics? Because the game itself is, well, there is that word grit again. It is about as useful as saying some game is more 'strawberry' than another game, or that a game is really 'waxy'. Because it doesn't actually described much by itself, and can have so many different meanings.

I'd like you explain the "illusion" more. And explain how the reverse is true.

I'm pretty I remember reading a really good example somewhere here in regards to the Cyclops metavariant from SR3. Ah, via the miracle of Search, here it is. Basically there extra complexity added for what appeared to be some sense of realism that was in truth far less realistic than just leaving it out entirely. That's the wierd thing about simulations. As you attempt to add precision your accuracy can get completely out of wack.

No it doesn't always happen. But then I never said always.

Another thing that can happen is forgetting the abstraction of the rules. Often I have seen people, on this forum and other places with other games, saying "well the rules don't account for this" when in fact it appears that whatever this is seems to have in fact been accounted for. Just not with an explicit mechanism, but within the functioning of the larger. Then they go off and try to add realism and end up doubling some effect, usually with the end result of screwing up the tuning of the game and generally mucking stuff up.
QUOTE

Color? No. The print? No. Asthetics? No.

grit·ty
adj. grit·ti·er, grit·ti·est
1. Containing, covered with, or resembling grit.
2. Showing resolution and fortitude; ex: a gritty decision.

grit
n.
1. Minute rough granules, as of sand or stone.
1. The texture or fineness of sand or stone used in grinding.
1. A coarse hard sandstone used for making grindstones and millstones.
1. Informal. Indomitable spirit.

Exactly. So how is that relavent to the use of the word in regards to RPGs? So painfully close to saying "Parinoia is a really waxy, strawberry game."
QUOTE
Also, I don't like skills maxing out and I don't like the cursing. I don't like reading the opening story and having it filled with garbage.

Using Church Lady made-up word substitute curses conveys a resolute, indomitable spirit in which way? I'm also really curious about how having a Skill cap makes it less gritty.

Or this is just something else you tossed in there since grit is actually just an empty, posteuring word and you thought you'd give a reason with substance? Because the starkness of real curse words makes you feel uncomfortable and prefering fudge curse words is a real reason for the dislike as that is used in the character speech I think about 4 times in couple of places.
mfb
another Brahm classic. hey, guys, we can't use the word 'gritty' to describe stuff anymore, because Brahm says it's inapplicable and makes no sense!
Brahm
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 30 2006, 07:24 PM)
another Brahm classic. hey, guys, we can't use the word 'gritty' to describe stuff anymore, because Brahm says it's inapplicable and makes no sense!

Another classic mfb. I never said he couldn't use it, I'm just saying it doesn't actually mean anything in the way he used it. Just like you can use street or strawberry to describe a game. smile.gif Those words just doesn't actually mean much by themselves, and typically are just bullshit postuering words. EDIT Well street is at least. The meaning of strawberry is slightly, but only slightly, less clear. cool.gif

Of course coming up with examples to explain what he means by that word does help. Like apparently for him real curse words are less gritty than totally made up meanings like frag. I'm not sure where he comes down on dreck though since at one point in time that was German or Yiddish word for shit, or something like that. So at least its sort of a real swear, although you can say it on TV.
mfb
i don't believe his complaints re: skills, cursing, and the first story are related to the grittiness thing. as for the grittiness thing itself: if you want to know what he means by 'gritty', maybe you should ask him. you know, rather than doing something completely unrelated like attacking his position as being baseless.
SL James
You can say a lot of curse words on television just as long as they aren't the Evil Seven or sacreligious.
McGravin
I've heard the adjective "gritty" used plenty of times to describe movies, TV, and books, and I see no reason why it couldn't apply to Shadowrun. Though, I would define it as used here more like "tough, harsh, heavy, and sometimes cruel". I would use it to describe Batman, anything film noir, Bladerunner, most any crime drama on TV anymore, that sort of thing.

But, Brahm, it is definitely a word and it is definitely applicable to SR.
SL James
I use it to describe a John Wayne movie.
Brahm
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 30 2006, 07:55 PM)
i don't believe his complaints re: skills, cursing, and the first story are related to the grittiness thing. as for the grittiness thing itself: if you want to know what he means by 'gritty', maybe you should ask him. you know, rather than doing something completely unrelated like attacking his position as being baseless.

I asked him. He copy and pasted from the dictionary, which of course explains squat. The only other thing he did was tack those two things onto the end of his post. EDIT Correction, he did clarify that it wasn't that the pages include a second color and nicer paper.

Since the dictionary quote was entirely uninformative I then asked him if those were what he was talking about. Of course if you had bothered to actually read my post that you initially responded to that would be entirely clear. Because, well, it's all there. rotfl.gif

I happen to think that his dislike of the real swear words is actually close to the opposite of his gritty assessment. So it nicely underlines just how meaningless his use of the word is.

But hey, maybe that dictionary copy-paste makes sense to you in explaining what he means, like maybe SR3 feels more like sand in his shorts? If so feel free to elaborate.
QUOTE
I've heard the adjective "gritty" used plenty of times to describe movies, TV, and books, and I see no reason why it couldn't apply to Shadowrun. Though, I would define it as used here more like "tough, harsh, heavy, and sometimes cruel". I would use it to describe Batman, anything film noir, Bladerunner, most any crime drama on TV anymore, that sort of thing.

But, Brahm, it is definitely a word and it is definitely applicable to SR.

It might be vaguely applicable, and there is a better part of a thread about this recently in the other forum. But his use of it for qualitative level of some mystical grittiness is a load of turds. Proclaiming that he finds some sort of significant difference between SR3 and SR4, which are actually quite close in tone, is absurd without more specifics.

Then topping it off noting that the fictional characters swear actual real words when things go very wrong in the less gritty book?
Brahm
QUOTE (SL James)
I use it to describe a John Wayne movie.

Never seen it, is it about a beach party?
Dr. Dodge
QUOTE (Brahm)
Then topping it off noting that the fictional characters swear actual real words when things go very wrong in the less gritty book?

i'm also pondering that
SL James
Hardly.
mfb
QUOTE (Brahm)
It is about as useful as saying some game is more 'strawberry' than another game, or that a game is really 'waxy'. Because it doesn't actually described much by itself, and can have so many different meanings.

that, Brahm, is where you failed at asking him for examples, opting instead to tell him that his choice of descriptor was bad--specifically, that it's as useful in describing an RPG as the word 'strawberry'. that apparently wasn't your intention. perhaps you should focus more on communicating clearly and less on acting like an overbearing cock to people you disagree with.
WhiskeyMac
I thought the switch to real curse words was weird because for 3 editions before Shadowrun had been using their own version of curse words. Luckily, the new Shadowrun novel "Aftershock" uses them as well as some of the Or'Zet (sp?) ones as well. Not saying I don't mind it but once you've seen it for 10+ years, you kinda get thrown for a loop when someone says "Fuck" instead of "Frag". Night's Pawn summed it up pretty well when the main character said "Fuck off" to one of his opponents. "You actually said fuck. How quaint."

I think the setting is something the GM has to set not the BBB. My version of dystopian cyberpunk with magic is probably a lot different then your version of dystopian cyberpunk with magic. Setting is one of the main roles of a GM. Shouldn't have to have a book shove it down your throat. Create your own "grit", "pulp" or whatever we're calling it.
mfb
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
I think the setting is something the GM has to set not the BBB.

it's a combination of both. you could run Snakes 'n Ladders as a grim, dystopian game, but it'd be much harder than playing Warhammer FRPG that way. the rules do strongly impact the feel of the setting.
WhiskeyMac
True. I guess I meant to say the BBB should give you a basic structure of the setting (which it does) and then let the GM decide how to flesh it out. The metaplot helps and Shadowrun gives you plenty of that. I personally don't enjoy a lot of Shadowrun's metaplot but I still follow it, even if it is lame (i.e. Immortal Elves and Shedim). Shadowrun to me is a little more tech and reality based then "MAGIC IS THE BEST EVER!", but then I loved Cyberpunk smile.gif (even if it wasn't reality based).
SL James
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
I personally don't enjoy a lot of Shadowrun's metaplot but I still follow it, even if it is lame (i.e. Immortal Elves and Shedim).

Now I know you are insane, because Shedim are awesome like liquid Jesus.
mfb
like Jesus? he was one of the living dead, y'know. remember how the apostles thought he was a gardener, when they first found the open tomb? don't you ever wonder what happened to the real gardener? his brains were eaten by the Son of God, that's what happened!
SL James
I forgot that part of Scripture.
Grinder
You never forget anything....

Btw, nice title/ member group. biggrin.gif
SL James
Oh noes! I've been brainwashed by the catechism!

And, thanks. I like it, too.

Brahm
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 30 2006, 11:56 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm)
It is about as useful as saying some game is more 'strawberry' than another game, or that a game is really 'waxy'. Because it doesn't actually described much by itself, and can have so many different meanings.

that, Brahm, is where you failed at asking him for examples, opting instead to tell him that his choice of descriptor was bad--specifically, that it's as useful in describing an RPG as the word 'strawberry'. that apparently wasn't your intention. perhaps you should focus more on communicating clearly and less on acting like an overbearing cock to people you disagree with.

I asked WTF he ment by gritty. I even provided the possibl specific example of the appearance of the physical paper because yes, that does mean something to some people. He got at least part of it since he at least tried to answer. You apparently aren't getting any of it though.

Answering that the paper and colour of the pages wasn't it was good. His answer of a copy-paste from the dictionary wasn't particularly revealing at all in the context that he used it. Of course him giving specifics would have been extremely helpful. As I've already pointed out.

So here we are, again. You busting my balls because of your inability to read.


EDIT Incidentally strawberry was an example, bordering on a simile, of how just using a single word doesn't really work that well in a situation like this. We like examples, right?
Shrike30
What he said smile.gif
mfb
strawberry was a bad example, Brahm. i can read well enough to understand the difference between asking someone for an example and undermining someone's position by making it seem ridiculous.

i'm perfectly willing to accept that you intended to ask him for examples. in the execution, however, you did what you always do: put on snottily superior airs and pursued the insult instead of the discussion.
Brahm
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 31 2006, 12:39 PM)
strawberry was a bad example, Brahm. i can read well enough to understand the difference between asking someone for an example and undermining someone's position by making it seem ridiculous.

I used an example that was somewhat of a hyperbole to underline the important part, the cryptic and/or empty meaning of the word in that use.

You can bitch and moan about how you think it was undermining him, but I put up real potential examples that sprung to mind. As in taking it seriously.
QUOTE
i'm perfectly willing to accept that you intended to ask him for examples. in the execution, however,

I intended to ask him to be more specific. Examples would be a way to do that.
QUOTE
you did what you always do: put on snottily superior airs and pursued the insult instead of the discussion.

That's a mighty big rock you are throwing for living in a glass house.
Shadowboxer
I prefer chocolate shadowrun over strawberry shadowrun

will you join my club pleaaase?
biggrin.gif
mfb
QUOTE (Brahm)
That's a mighty big rock you are throwing for living in a glass house.

you can continue to believe that. but the reason i'm not a pot, while you remain a kettle, is that i use invective to batter people into thinking clearly (or at least into thinking my way), while you use it to make yourself look better. i treat people as equals; you treat them as contemptible.

i've hijacked this thread long enough.
Bull
Indeed.

I wasn't watching this thread. Oops smile.gif

Brahm, play nice. Same goes for the rest of y'all.

Bull
Brahm
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 1 2006, 08:42 AM)
I wasn't watching this thread.  Oops smile.gif

Nothing here to see, I'm shooting a hijacker that decided to take over the plane so he could urinate in the aisle. nyahnyah.gif wink.gif



@Shadowboxer Mmmmm, chocolate. love.gif Just make sure you bring it to the next meeting and you'll get in the door no problems. cool.gif
Bull
QUOTE (Brahm)
Nothing here to see, I'm shooting a hijacker that decided to take over the plane so he could urinate in the aisle. nyahnyah.gif wink.gif

Well, long as there aren't any snakes on that plane wink.gif
Critias
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 1 2006, 08:42 AM)
I wasn't watching this thread.  Oops smile.gif

Nothing here to see, I'm shooting a hijacker that decided to take over the plane so he could urinate in the aisle.

Good to see you're playing nice now.
Brahm
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 1 2006, 10:32 AM)
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 1 2006, 08:42 AM)
I wasn't watching this thread.  Oops smile.gif

Nothing here to see, I'm shooting a hijacker that decided to take over the plane so he could urinate in the aisle.

Good to see you're playing nice now.

Thank you.
Adam
Admin post: Now you can start being nice -- or at least, civil -- or you can not post.
Union Jane
Meanwhile, I'm still missing my exploding d6 . . .
Brahm
QUOTE (Union Jane @ Aug 1 2006, 11:56 PM)
Meanwhile, I'm still missing my exploding d6 . . .

Why? Because exploding 6's are still there in SR4, as is a measure of uncertainty about the number of passes your opponent will act on. Edge provides both of those. They don't actually interact with each other as you described in your inital post, but then they never have in RAW in Shadowrun.
eidolon
No need to miss them. Play SR3 and enjoy it.
Teux
QUOTE (eidolon)
No need to miss them.  Play SR3 and enjoy it.

Or just implement the rule in SR4.

Heck, the book even suggests doing so under its alternative gameplay styles section.

It's a fairly simple rule to put in place, so if you enjoy it so much, just use it.
Rajaat99
QUOTE (SL James @ Jul 31 2006, 01:08 AM)
You can say a lot of curse words on television just as long as they aren't the Evil Seven or sacreligious.

I don't watch TV. In fact, I don't even own one.

grit·ty
adj. grit·ti·er, grit·ti·est
1. Containing, covered with, or resembling grit.
2. Showing resolution and fortitude; ex: a gritty decision.

grit
n.
1. Minute rough granules, as of sand or stone.
2. The texture or fineness of sand or stone used in grinding.
3. A coarse hard sandstone used for making grindstones and millstones.
4. Informal. Indomitable spirit.

I meant #2 on gritty and #4 on grit. It's the spirit.
Or, if you live in the barrens, it's #1 on gritty.
I don't miss exploding D6's, I play SR3! biggrin.gif
Oh, and the #1 main problem I have with SR4, besides the cursing (although that is a big one, for me), besides the non-exploding D6's, besides the less grit, and all the other stuff.... I don't think a new edition was needed, except to take my money.
Brahm
QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ Aug 2 2006, 08:49 PM)
I meant #2 on gritty and #4 on grit.

....still meaning diddly, not even explaining how that relates to an RPG for you. frown.gif You can't come up with at least a couple of concrete examples?
QUOTE
I don't think a new edition was needed, except to take my money.

Then you are definately on the wrong forum. Not to mention in the minority, seemingly even among the vocal don't-like-SR4 DSF diehards. nyahnyah.gif Make sure to not let the door hit in the butt on the way out. wink.gif wink.gif wink.gif
Llewelyn
QUOTE (Rajaat99)
I don't think a new edition was needed, except to take my money.

Well it was the only way for them to get my money as I could not stand the earlier versions of rules. So I would have to disagree and agree with you at the same time.

I feel the new version is very worth while, if you miss exploding 6s then add them in, not that hard really. It wouldn't be hard to add in variable TNs either if you want to.
Critias
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ Aug 2 2006, 08:49 PM)
I meant #2 on gritty and #4 on grit.

....still meaning diddly, not even explaining how that relates to an RPG for you. frown.gif You can't come up with at least a couple of concrete examples?

Is pretending to be dense just, like, fun for you?
Synner
Like Bull suggested, let's keep it civil...

Brahm, in his own inimitable way, is trying to get Rajaat to detail a few specifics on why he believes SR4 is less gritty (and in that context exactly what he means by gritty) because to him and others its not necessarily apparent. Examples would be helpful. There's nothing really wrong with that, and I'm sure others would like to know too.
Brahm
QUOTE (Llewelyn @ Aug 3 2006, 01:33 AM)
I feel the new version is very worth while, if you miss exploding 6s then add them in, not that hard really. It wouldn't be hard to add in variable TNs either if you want to.

I disagree on the ease of changing SR4 to variable TNs. You'd have to largely dump the Threshold concept as varying the TN a little bit results in abrupt changes in the odds of multiple hits.

I agree that exploding 6's all the time are nearly a nobrainer to introduce. But they are there anyway for just about all the similar types of times they materially mattered in SR3. Depending somewhat on Edge refresh rates used, and save for the much despised Open Tests. For the tough odds, back against the wall, pulling your hoop out of the fire times you are likely to be rolling dice that can explode.
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