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warrior_allanon
Personally i would go with a 12ga shotgun with a barely legal barel, pistol and fore end grips and a folding stock, for defense of a small apartment. If she's concerned about being knocked down by it, go to a lighter gauge, (20ga is easiest to come by and will still do enough damage) but anything lighter than a 20ga, (a 410 for instance) is to light unless you use slugs.

load suggestions would be:
#7bird shot at lightest
000 buckshot is heaviest available short of slug

The benefit of the bird shot is that it is the least likely to penetrate neighboring walls yet still at close range will kill with a chest shot on a narrow choke or pepper on full. Also, i would go with a pump and not a semi-auto, what you lose in speed you gain in intimidation. Not to long ago a poll was did of people imprisioned for burglery and they said with something like a 95% rating that the scariest sound they could hear during a break in was that very distinguishing sound of a 12ga pump racking back.
HullBreach
I use #8 shot for indoor use. It has been shown in testing to be nearly incapable of peircing the skin after two layers of drywall or a plaster wall, so no worries about shooting the Joneses by accident. What it does to targets is pretty gruesome.

For my handgun I keep a magazine of mag-safes around for indoor use, as they are designed to break up against builiding materials. Once again, pretty nasty wounds though.

I load Federal HST's for when im out and about though.
Clyde
Nezumi,

I would check out the following two websites:

www.nononsenseselfdefense.com

and

http://www.spw-duf.info/

No Nonsense Self Defense is by a guy named Marc "Animal" MacYoung. And while the guy usually has a pretty rough and ready (and fairly macho) writing style, the whole website is just that: no nonsense. It's a big site that takes a long time to sift through, but it's pretty easy to navigate and pretty eye opening. There's no info on guns, but there is information on just about everything else - including how to reinforce your home or apartment (cheap) so that you maybe don't have to shoot an intruder at all, or at any rate have time to get a firearm ready and call police while they're working on your door.

The other website is geared explicitly for defensive gun use and covers most areas pretty well.

Gabriel (Argus #2323)
I was curious... why does a gun owner (such as some of those who have posted here) feel the need to carry it with them casually? I have nothing against carrying weapons, I support gun ownership, but I can't conceive the mindset where I'd want to actually carry it around with me. Humor me?
hyzmarca
It is better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it.
Gabriel (Argus #2323)
When do you need a gun? Well... I guess when someone bigger or stronger than you is trying to harm you. But wouldn't you rather just eletrocute them than put a hole in them? I guess I'm just pacifist. To each his own.
mfb
when you meet someone you'd like to kill. generally, that's assumed to be people who are trying to hurt you first. tasers are nice, but guns have more ammo and better range. if you don't want to hurt people permanently, carry a taser. if you want to make sure you don't get hurt, carry a gun.

and, honestly? no. if somebody wants to hurt me, i'd rather put a hole in them than zap them, even if both were equally effective.
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (nezumi)
Seriously though, as a quick off topic question, my wife (also 5'1", but probably not nearly as good condition as Snow Fox) is considering getting a firearm for personal protection, since this is not the safest neighborhood (last month some guys were trying to drag a woman into the apartment across the way to rape her). I've been watching DS carefully for suggestions on what to get (WR's 1911 and Fox's Cheetah are both noted), but I'm wondering where the best place to start researching would be?


Despite being one of the resident gun nuts, I'll say that buying a firearm should be one of the last steps to increasing your personal safety rather than the first. Good environmental awareness, for example, will generally increase your safety more than carrying a firearm, even if you know how to use it. Some crime prevention or awareness based self defense classes are a good start.

For advice on choosing a firearm:

the weapons you choose has to have sufficient penetraion to kill someone quickly. While all firearms are potientally lethal, for a defensive firearm, you want immediate death or incapacitation of the target, not death through blood loss or infection several hours or days later. This generally rules out small caliber pistols (22, .25, .32, some loadings of .380 ACP). In addition, this generally rules out birdshot out of shotguns as well. This means that anything you want to fire at someone will go right through doors (interior and exterior), interior walls, furniture, and possibly even exterior walls and still retain sufficient force to kill someone on the other side. (See The Box of Truth for some samples of what kind of things firearms will penetrate).

For selecting a weapon, try to find a dealer, firing range, or local gun bunny that will let your handle, or ideally, shoot before deciding on what to purchase, as ergonomics will be a large factor. Since you are in the US, the amount of high quality firearms avaiable is truly staggeting, take advantage of the selection by trying before you buy. Once you pick a weapon, budget and schedule at least 500 rounds of ammunition to become familiar with the weapon. This will probably be a whole day or two afternoons of shooting. Make sure you have hearing and eye protection if your shooting range dosen't supply these things already. Ideally, get some local gun bunnies to drill you on things like: draw and shoot, load and shoot, and target identification drills. The target identification drills are probably the most important, shooting a family member that came home drunk one night and startled you (or whatever) is a traqgedy we'd all like to avoid.

Next you have to become familiar with the legal stuff. How you can transport and carry your weapon. Under what circumsatance you canuse it, and so on.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Gabriel (Argus #2323))
I was curious... why does a gun owner (such as some of those who have posted here) feel the need to carry it with them casually?

If I could carry a taser with the range, capacity, and accuracy of a handgun, I would. Sadly, it's not an option.

I carry a gun in case I have to stop someone from hurting me, or someone I care about. If I pull it out, and they take off, all the better. If I fire and miss, and the bang scares 'em off, well, let's hope those stray rounds didn't hurt anyone, and I'm glad it's over. If I shoot someone, and he stops trying to hurt me or my loved ones, my goal is accomplished, and we get to go about life. If it kills him in the process, well... them's the breaks.

Why do I carry "casually?" I'd guess you mean as opposed to "when I think I'm going to need it." I can't imagine voluntarily going into a situation where I think I'm going to need to shoot someone... and that leaves the rest of the time, where I might have to.

There's been three different incidents in Seattle in the last 9 months where some nutbar shot up five or more people he didn't know for reasons that don't make sense to me, without warning. The last one was a few blocks from the office I work in. It occurred to me "Ya know... these guys go to jail, or die at the hands of the police, and that's all well and good... but if I'm one of the people who gets shot in the face before the police arrive, or if that person was someone I really cared about, that doesn't do me a lot of good."

All of a sudden, doing some paperwork and dragging four-odd pounds of gun and ammo around all day sounded like less of a hassle, and more of an insurance policy. There's nothing saying I can't run away, call the cops, get cover, or hide just like everyone else out there if bad shit happens to me... but if I've got to put up a fight, I want those odds stacked in my favor as much as I can get them.
Smokeskin
For home defense, get a proper flashlight like a SureFire. These things offer incredibly powerful light in a small package - not only can you easily blind an intruder (and these things really do blind), it also lets you identify people in the dark, both inside and outside the house.

Firearm accidents are also an issue to consider. Having a pistol in an easily-accessible place at home is a much greater risk than a rifle or shotgun. People are much less prone to pick up and/or play with a rifle and if someone does it is almost impossible to hit yourself in a vital spot with one. Accidental discharges can easily happen, considering that it might be handled by someone with minimal training, stumbling through a dark house, scared and sleep-confused. Rifles are just safer.

The whole american vs european view on guns is flawed imo, because they don't consider the other side. In Europe, only very few criminals carry guns, and getting killed during a robbery or other crime is very rare. Relaxing gun control laws would probably mean criminals quickly got armed, meaning less safety for everyone. In the US, a large number of criminals carry guns. Robberies are often carried out at gunpoint etc. Gun control will probably do very little to disarm criminals, leaving lawabiding civilians without guns. Sure, the majority of people in the US will get by fine without a gun and most that do carry guns won't ever get to use them. The same can be said for seatbelts and airbags, chances are they'll never save your life.
zeb.hillard
(Still somewhat off topic)
If you do decide to introduce a firearm into your home, after enough training with it on the range to feel comfortable (The suggestions earlier were spot on), leave it unloaded near where you sleep with an empty clip nearby. Have a friend set an extra alarm clock with an amazingly loud and abrasive alarm on it for some time during your regluar sleep schedule. When it goes off, it should startle and confuse you, but still practice being able to slap the empty clip into the handgun and work the slide. It's not quite real-life surprise situations...but it will accomidate you to keeping the gun in a set location and being able to place clip into handgun...increasing your safety by keeping it unloaded in your home.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Smokeskin)
Robberies are often carried out at gunpoint etc.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, because there are enough gun-using robberies that I could see the word "often" used for it, but let's try to stick to specifics here: according to the DOJ, a firearm of some kind was used in 18.4% of 2004 robberies.

~J
Shrike30
QUOTE (zeb.hillard @ Aug 11 2006, 05:23 AM)
leave it unloaded near where you sleep with an empty clip nearby...

I'm not sure where this is meant to lead.

An unsecured firearm, unloaded or not, is not a good idea to have lying around. I'd much rather have a loaded weapon in a speed-access safe of some kind (one of the digital combination or finger-pattern types) than an unloaded one lying on the nightstand. By the time you've got the coordination to open something like that, you're awake enough to be aware of your surroundings. And fumbling around for ammunition in the dark is not my idea of a good time nyahnyah.gif
stevebugge
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 11 2006, 04:26 AM)
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 11 2006, 07:11 AM)
Robberies are often carried out at gunpoint etc.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, because there are enough gun-using robberies that I could see the word "often" used for it, but let's try to stick to specifics here: according to the DOJ, a firearm of some kind was used in 18.4% of 2004 robberies.

~J

From a statistical to common use language standpoint, I'd say nearly one in five robberies would count as often, in the same way one in five cars being blue would count as a lot. Not necessarily because it's a high rate, but because it's a big enough sample size.
Moon-Hawk
I would apply all sorts of words like "often" or "common" to 18.4%. Certainly not "most", and I think I'd shy away from "usually", but I'd definitely consider that "often."
Shrike30
That's about 85,000 a year. That qualifies as "often" in my books.
ronin3338
Just so I can keep up...

Robbery and burglary are similar, but burglary is typically an empty home, right? Also, would muggings count as robberies, or is a robbery only a dwelling or place of business?
I ask because that may skew the statistics one way or the other...
Kagetenshi
Not necessarily empty. It varies by jurisdiction, but it's generally a combination of trespassing and theft. Robbery, on the other hand, is generally a combination of assault and theft. Muggings are a type of robbery, generally being characterized as occurring in public places (rather than a store or house), but I don't believe they're legally recognized anywhere.

~J
Smokeskin
Robbery is stealing by threatening or using violence. So burglary is not robbery, while muggings are.
Shrike30
Robberies require you to interact with another person. Burglary does not. The moment you come face to face with a person in a house you're burgling and continue to take their stuff (preferably while intimidating them or tying them to a solid object) it becomes robbery.
Kagetenshi
That's not entirely true (though the bit about intimidating or tying to solid objects makes it such). At this point, it becomes legal advice, though, and most of us aren't qualified to dispense that.

~J
PBTHHHHT
Not yet. nyahnyah.gif
Snow_Fox
guys, either keep on the thread topic or go start your own thread.
Arethusa
I'm still waiting for some actual good advice on concealment. Most of my clothes are slim and fitted, and I really can't imagine how I'd carry a gun under any of that. I'd hoped women might generally have more useful advice on it than men, but all I've seen generally comes down to "buy baggier clothes".
HullBreach
QUOTE (Arethusa)
I'm still waiting for some actual good advice on concealment. Most of my clothes are slim and fitted, and I really can't imagine how I'd carry a gun under any of that. I'd hoped women might generally have more useful advice on it than men, but all I've seen generally comes down to "buy baggier clothes".

Well this is a situation where real-life should provide the basis for in-game mechanics. As far as research on the matter goes, besides talking to people who carry on a regular basis, there are some good resources on the net. I'll summarize a few here:

http://www.packing.org
This site has had shoddy availibillity lately, but it used to be THE primary clearing house for concealed carry information and discussion.

http://www.ar15.com/
Though aimed primarily at rifle enthusiasts, there are some fantastic concealed carry discussions that occur here. Also, you will find a plethora of neat modifacations and customizations to keep your Street Sam's drooling.

http://www.concealedcarry.com/
These guys sell some nice custom clothing that aids in concealment. By the way, even if you don't carry, the heavier leather and construction of belts designed to hold holsters is worth every penny.

http://www.uncle-mikes.com/
Damn good selection of both concealed and open carry holsters. They also make holsters for other handy gear like flashlights and multi-tools.

http://www.usgalco.com/
These are the guys I bought my shoulder rig from. The leatherwork is top notch, and if you don't mind a short wait they do custom work.

I'll post some more as I think of them. By the way, I tell my players that if its availible nowadays in real life, its availible in my game. I do warn them that it may take a session or two before I finalize the items stats.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Arethusa)
I'm still waiting for some actual good advice on concealment. Most of my clothes are slim and fitted, and I really can't imagine how I'd carry a gun under any of that. I'd hoped women might generally have more useful advice on it than men, but all I've seen generally comes down to "buy baggier clothes".

Probably because the problem is that you simply can't conceal a gun under slim and fitted clothes. Buying baggy clothes or concealing it outside of your clothes is probably your only options. Outside of the clothes means handbags, purses, planners etc., which has also been mentioned. You can get some handbags with very accessible gun storage, like demonstrated here http://www.gungear.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/...ay.cgi?2X300536 (just found with a simple google-search, I don't know the quality of the items)
ShadowDragon8685
I love these little arguments.

Where does my PC carry her guns?

Four of them, two in each sleeve on quickdraw holsters, one in the small of her back in a concealed holster, one in the inside of her vest.


All of them Ares Predator IVs loaded with various fun rounds (Left sleeve - Stick'n'shock. Vest - Gel. Right sleeve - Ex-Ex. Back - APDS.)


Concealment is not a priority. Firepower is. smile.gif


Why is concealment not a priority? "Why yes officer, I do have a permit for these guns, and their ammunition."

That, and the fact that if he dosen't buy it, you're going to need to shoot your way out. Which you would rather be shooting your way out of a 'Star entanglement with - a lone Streetline Special with FMJ Ball, or a Predator IV with Ex-Ex?
LilithTaveril
That's why you get buddy-buddy with a good hacker and have rating-6 fake licenses for your guns and ammo. Let him check the license personally.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Which you would rather be shooting your way out of a 'Star entanglement with - a lone Streetline Special with FMJ Ball, or a Predator IV with Ex-Ex?

Never shoot your way out of entanglements—always shoot your way into them.

~J
Snow_Fox
best not to let the officer see the gun to ask for the permitt. it delays things, he's going to be more likely to remember you and maybe keep an eye on you. anyone else who notices this exchange will notice you too.

QUOTE (Arethusa @ Aug 12 2006, 03:38 PM)
I'm still waiting for some actual good advice on concealment.  Most of my clothes are slim and fitted, and I really can't imagine how I'd carry a gun under any of that.  I'd hoped women might generally have more useful advice on it than men, but all I've seen generally comes down to "buy baggier clothes".

That's the hwole reason for this thread. Women's clothing is form fitting. It's sexists but good clothes are to show off curves. If you have a small chest there are tricks to make them look bigger. (push up or click bras come to mind) emphisize small waist and curved hips.

more than swim suits and gym outfits regular clothes are the problem.
Fix-it
raygun seems to be more of a long guns guy from what I've read.

I don't like berrettas because they always seem to jam half way through the clip on me.

and the exposed barrel is just dying for dirt and junk in between that and the slide.

sigs are also nice.

but more expensive.
Snow_Fox
raygun also shoots handguns, that's why he's our official gun expert. It sounds like your beretta has a problem. My chettah (SR terms lt pistol) has jambed once, that's in several years. The Tomcat is a little more problematic, I can't load it with hollow points but it has a really freaky action.

My .357 jambed badly when I got it, but after we disassmebled it it was found the last owner hadn't maintained it well. We cleaned the heck out of it and it works fine now.
ShadowDragon8685
My SR characters aren't subtle types. Remember that "Shadowrun: We know this is how you're playing it" poster with a picture of Neo in the Lobby?

Yeah. That's how we play Shadowrun. Bear in mind that the 4x Predators? That's my decker's load. ^_^

That said, if you want to conceal a gun in women's clothing, the best option that comes to mind (bearing in mind that I'm a man) is a long leather trenchcoat, ala The Matrix. Add dark mirrored glasses, and you can still give off that sexy and dangerous feeling without showing off the curves.


And for my two cents, I like small breasts. ^_^
Schaeffer
QUOTE (Fix-it)
raygun seems to be more of a long guns guy from what I've read.

I don't like berrettas because they always seem to jam half way through the clip on me.

and the exposed barrel is just dying for dirt and junk in between that and the slide.

sigs are also nice.

but more expensive.

First of all, always make sure you're holding the gun firmly and allowing your strong arm to provide resistance for the weapon to cycle against. Secondly, I agree with Snow_Fox, in that it sounds specifically like a magazine/spring problem. I usually mark the problem children-magazines when they act up at the range, therby determining the most reliable for carry purposes.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Schaeffer)
First of all, always make sure you're holding the gun firmly and allowing your strong arm to provide resistance for the weapon to cycle against.

Unless I'm very badly mistaken, guns should cycle if fired while hanging unsupported in space. Not that it's bad advice, mind you, but this reason for it is bogus.

~J
Adarael
They SHOULD, but they don't always. My friend's Desert Eagle has a problem cycling while firing .357 if you limp-wrist it at all.

It also has this amazing tendancy when firing .50AE to torque my wrist so that the ejected brass plants in the center of my forehead.
LilithTaveril
Yeah, but most of that isn't recoil, it's how violently a part of the gun moves. The gun would be nearly recoilless if it wasn't for that simple little factor.
Snow_Fox
leather trench- my garment of choice in cool weather-I can hide anything under that.

A couple of weeks ago I was in New Hope, an artsy town on the Delaware. I had on jeans, cami and a jacket over it. I had to have the jacket to cover my gun. In a shop one middle aged woman said I should take the jacket off because I was making her feel hot.
Schaeffer
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Schaeffer @ Aug 12 2006, 10:37 PM)
First of all, always make sure you're holding the gun firmly and allowing your strong arm to provide resistance for the weapon to cycle against.

Unless I'm very badly mistaken, guns should cycle if fired while hanging unsupported in space. Not that it's bad advice, mind you, but this reason for it is bogus.

~J

Then there must be another reason why semi-autos jam when limp-wristed... I'll have to go back to the old drawing board. Thanks for the heads up, K.
Kagetenshi
It's not impossible that I'm wrong, but I doubt I am—it's not something I've heard before (in a number of discussions on jamming avoidance, etc.) and it doesn't appear to make sense from a design/physics perspective. That said, just keep in mind that I don't have absolute certainty.

~J
Schaeffer
QUOTE (Schaeffer)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 13 2006, 04:10 AM)
QUOTE (Schaeffer @ Aug 12 2006, 10:37 PM)
First of all, always make sure you're holding the gun firmly and allowing your strong arm to provide resistance for the weapon to cycle against.

Unless I'm very badly mistaken, guns should cycle if fired while hanging unsupported in space. Not that it's bad advice, mind you, but this reason for it is bogus.

~J

Then there must be another reason why semi-autos jam when limp-wristed... I'll have to go back to the old drawing board. Thanks for the heads up, K.

Nevermind. I found an answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limp_wristing
Schaeffer
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
It's not impossible that I'm wrong, but I doubt I am—it's not something I've heard before and it doesn't appear to make sense from a design/physics perspective. That said, just keep in mind that I don't have absolute certainty.

~J

No worries bud.
Now if I could just get the image of Snow-Fox in a leather trench out of my head, I'll get through the rest of the day. love.gif
Kagetenshi
Right. Different operating mechanisms. I'm an idiot.

~J, forgetting the world isn't gas-operated
Schaeffer
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Right. Different operating mechanisms. I'm an idiot.

~J, forgetting the world isn't gas-operated

Yes, well, sometimes my dad seems to be, but that would be another thread.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Schaeffer)
No worries bud.
Now if I could just get the image of Snow-Fox in a leather trench out of my head, I'll get through the rest of the day. love.gif

lol.

Black. I love to wear it with a skirt and boots. there's a great swirl to it around the hips.
Paul
Just add a paper sack to the head and the image is complete.
Snow_Fox
you're just jelous because I look better in a short skirt than you do.
Paul
You've got me there. Although better than zero is easy to do, so it's not saying much.
Fix-it
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Aug 12 2006, 09:19 PM)
It sounds like your beretta has a problem. My chettah (SR terms lt pistol) has jambed once, that's in several years. The Tomcat is a little more problematic, I can't load it with hollow points but it has a really freaky action.

My .357 jambed badly when I got it, but after we disassmebled it it was found the last owner hadn't maintained it well. We cleaned the heck out of it and it works fine now.

's not my beretta, and it's a 92FS.

and the problem is it's designed by an italian. wink.gif

silly people and thier "form over function" nonsense.
Siege
Geeze, I disappear for a year, come back and find the same topics on the front page.

-Siege
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