Yeah. Good fucking luck trying to do more than lean against the nearest unattended object and pray you don't tip over, with a concealed loadout like that.
Prior to that clip's famous appearance in Bowling for Columbine, I remember it as part of a "why your school needs our dress code program and three of our $20K apiece metal detectors at all of five major entrances, instead of a full set of new books and a laptop for every student" series of ads/micro-seminars.
Full Version: Hiding a gun
Chalk another one up to logic and reason overcoming fearmongering and stupidity.
| QUOTE (zeb.hillard) | ||||
However, thankfully, you can usually explain the trunk of your vehicle as a locked container. I had to find out the considerable differences for concealed-carry that Ohio has as compared to home. (A Texan in Ohio, blech) |
point of interest: if the trunk can be accessed from inside of the car, you can get in trouble here. this is especially true of vehicles marketed to the "sporty" crowd ie: you can fit your skis half in the trunk half in the backseat, etc.
I think no European will ever understand the American attitude towards guns.
Yup.
Well, i live in Brazil and this week our president offered 10000 men from the army to help deal with the crime/terrorism wave we are having in Sao Paulo. One of the main factions of organized crime there decided to "fight the government", just donīt ask me why, since the reasons are way too convoluted for me to get.
Anyway, that means they are setting police cars on fire, doing random shootouts, hiding bombs in shopping malls and all that kind of stuff.
Well, the point being that even with this kind of stuff around me, i still donīt really understand the way (north) americans deal with weapons.
Itīs tricky to get a permit here, but very easy to buy a sidearm illegally. Even so, my only friends who do have firearms are the ones somehow related with the millitary or police department.
Will
Anyway, that means they are setting police cars on fire, doing random shootouts, hiding bombs in shopping malls and all that kind of stuff.
Well, the point being that even with this kind of stuff around me, i still donīt really understand the way (north) americans deal with weapons.
Itīs tricky to get a permit here, but very easy to buy a sidearm illegally. Even so, my only friends who do have firearms are the ones somehow related with the millitary or police department.
Will
Actually no modern European will ever understand the American attitude toward guns. Three-hundred-year-old Europeans have exactly the same attitude.
In England, the Right to Bear Arms was codified in 1689.
The problem is that the UK has a strong Parliament but not a strong Constitution so the Parliament can easily and without challenge overrule founding legal documents like the Magna Carta and the 1689 Bill of Rights.
Parliament has been passing laws that are illegal according to these documents for quite some time with absolute impunity. This is why the Colonies rebelled in the first place. Their beef wasn't with an oppressive king. It was with an illegitimate parliament that passed illegal laws and the king who would not lift a finger to stop them from committing such crimes.
What UK needs to to put the Monarch back in the Monarchy. Lizzie should gather her armies, march on Parliament, and kill every last MP with her own hands. Then, she should challenge everyone who has a problem with it to come up their and try to take her on.
Really, if I were the King I would use excessive violence to prevent Parliament from ignoring the documents that my ancestors signed so that the rights of the people would be protected.
With any luck, the rest of Europe would follow suit. If not, there's always wars of conquest. St. Crispin's Day, baby.
In England, the Right to Bear Arms was codified in 1689.
The problem is that the UK has a strong Parliament but not a strong Constitution so the Parliament can easily and without challenge overrule founding legal documents like the Magna Carta and the 1689 Bill of Rights.
Parliament has been passing laws that are illegal according to these documents for quite some time with absolute impunity. This is why the Colonies rebelled in the first place. Their beef wasn't with an oppressive king. It was with an illegitimate parliament that passed illegal laws and the king who would not lift a finger to stop them from committing such crimes.
What UK needs to to put the Monarch back in the Monarchy. Lizzie should gather her armies, march on Parliament, and kill every last MP with her own hands. Then, she should challenge everyone who has a problem with it to come up their and try to take her on.
Really, if I were the King I would use excessive violence to prevent Parliament from ignoring the documents that my ancestors signed so that the rights of the people would be protected.
With any luck, the rest of Europe would follow suit. If not, there's always wars of conquest. St. Crispin's Day, baby.
Hmm, are the current UK oaths of service personal oaths to the sovereign, or what?
I don't think so. Perosnally i think we need to remove the monarch as head of state. But I'm a republican (and not in the US sense).
Currently, and for quite some time, the UK has operated on the concept of parliamentary supremacy. Basically, Parliament can do whatever it wants whenever it wants and no one can do anything about it. Parliament could pass a law requiring every left-handed person to be executed by firing squad along with a provision that EU human rights laws don't apply in this case and the courts would have no legal alternative but to enforce it.
Parliamentary Supremacy is directly responsible for the eroding rights of UK citizens, particularly in regard to self-defense and firearms. Since all codified rights come from Parliament, Parliament can repeal those rights at any time.
In regards to the American Revolution, there was no dispute over the supremacy of Parliament. Rather, the dispute was over whether or not Parliament had the right to legislate for the colonies at all. The position of the Colonies was that it did not and that their own legislatures were supreme in this regard. The position of Parliament was that the legislatures of the Colonies were subordinate to it. But, the problems associated with Parliamentary supremacy were the primary motivating factors in the establishment of a supreme Constitution when the United States was formed.
Parliamentary Supremacy is directly responsible for the eroding rights of UK citizens, particularly in regard to self-defense and firearms. Since all codified rights come from Parliament, Parliament can repeal those rights at any time.
In regards to the American Revolution, there was no dispute over the supremacy of Parliament. Rather, the dispute was over whether or not Parliament had the right to legislate for the colonies at all. The position of the Colonies was that it did not and that their own legislatures were supreme in this regard. The position of Parliament was that the legislatures of the Colonies were subordinate to it. But, the problems associated with Parliamentary supremacy were the primary motivating factors in the establishment of a supreme Constitution when the United States was formed.
My most important right concerning firearms is not being shot by one. If the ban of firearms is necessary to ensure that, I support it.
I just don't see why owning a firearm should be a right. If you absolutely must be paranoid enough to carry a gun around for self defence, I think that you should need to jump through fucking hoops for months while you get tested and sit in the waiting line. I'm of the oppinion that guns are for farmers, and not much else.
EDIT: If this guy doesn't need a gun, then niether do you.
EDIT: If this guy doesn't need a gun, then niether do you.
| QUOTE (Oracle) |
| My most important right concerning firearms is not being shot by one. |
Your most important right, period, is the right to overthrow your government. Anything that hinders that is undesirable, and all other concerns (including your personal safety) are secondary.
But we're way off-topic.
~J
| QUOTE (Oracle) |
| I think no European will ever understand the American attitude towards guns. |
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Actually no modern European will ever understand the American attitude toward guns. Three-hundred-year-old Europeans have exactly the same attitude. |
You wouldn't have to go nearly that far back. In many parts of Europe, owning firearms for a variety of reasons, including defense (or indeed offense), was natural at least through the first half of the 20th century. Even now firearm ownership is quite highly appreciated in parts of Europe. This distinction is a bit false.
On the whole, gun ownership is far from the only aspect of our societies where neither side of the debate is likely to ever understand, or indeed make any attempt to understand, the opposite opinion. For some reason we never debate the existence of the welfare state on Dumpshock, though, even though ranting about that shit would make just as much sense.
It was only a matter of time before an interesting thread degenerated into an anti-gun, pro-gun piece of tripe. I'd like to thank our so-called brothers across the pond as well as those in the northlands for their insightful comments.
| QUOTE (Nidhogg) |
| I just don't see why owning a firearm should be a right. If you absolutely must be paranoid enough to carry a gun around for self defence, I think that you should need to jump through fucking hoops for months while you get tested and sit in the waiting line. I'm of the oppinion that guns are for farmers, and not much else. EDIT: If this guy doesn't need a gun, then niether do you. |
Dog is/was a convicted felon, by his own admission, and many years ago. If that is indeed the case, he cannot legally own a firearm.
Hopefully we can get back on topic...
Snow Fox, what methods have your characters used for concealing weapons in-game, that you would consider being "out-of-the-box"?
On a related note, what's the most unusual way anyone's characters have handled concealing weapons in-game?
One method I remember reading in someone's post was vacuum-sealed ammunition to defeat detection/sniffers, and I thought that was a really good idea.
Snow Fox, what methods have your characters used for concealing weapons in-game, that you would consider being "out-of-the-box"?
On a related note, what's the most unusual way anyone's characters have handled concealing weapons in-game?
One method I remember reading in someone's post was vacuum-sealed ammunition to defeat detection/sniffers, and I thought that was a really good idea.
| QUOTE (will_rj) |
| Well, i live in Brazil and this week our president offered 10000 men from the army to help deal with the crime/terrorism wave we are having in Sao Paulo. One of the main factions of organized crime there decided to "fight the government", just donīt ask me why, since the reasons are way too convoluted for me to get. Anyway, that means they are setting police cars on fire, doing random shootouts, hiding bombs in shopping malls and all that kind of stuff. Well, the point being that even with this kind of stuff around me, i still donīt really understand the way (north) americans deal with weapons. Itīs tricky to get a permit here, but very easy to buy a sidearm illegally. Even so, my only friends who do have firearms are the ones somehow related with the millitary or police department. Will |
Heres the big diference:
Here in the US, instead of waiting for the government to get off their collective ass and take care of the problem, Joe Average will start smoking goblins when he sees them comitting crimes against his fellow citizen.
I've personally prevented two robberies (caught them and diffused them before the fact) since getting my permit. Im not a cop, so I didn't try and make an arrest or anything (which depending upon state could be construed as kidnapping) but I made sure the bad guys noticed me noticing them with my hand in an odd spot. Hell I could just been pissed and fisihing for a cell phone, but criminals are typically the cowardly sort.
It comes down to accepting personal responsibillity for your own safety and that of those around you. If you do a little diggin you'll find that while every police cheifs assosciation (which are basically puppets of the local mayor/city council) is against civilian concealed carry, but almost every policemans (these represent the actual cops, not their politician bosses) assosciation is a major proponent of it. This is because there have been many situations where armed citizens have come to the aid of officers who were outgunned or wounded.
I'm not trying to be confromtational, but the big difference between a citizen and a subject is that while the subject waits for the government to save them, the citizen is busy saving others having already saved themself.
guys take the anti gun rally elsewhere! This is a forum for shadowrun. A game in which people carry and use guns.
| QUOTE (Schaeffer @ Aug 10 2006, 07:48 AM) |
| Hopefully we can get back on topic... Snow Fox, what methods have your characters used for concealing weapons in-game, that you would consider being "out-of-the-box"? On a related note, what's the most unusual way anyone's characters have handled concealing weapons in-game? One method I remember reading in someone's post was vacuum-sealed ammunition to defeat detection/sniffers, and I thought that was a really good idea. |
I'm looking for 'outside the box' idea because my LR stuff gets in the way. Like I usually do not do well on motorcylce video games because I ride in real life and know what I would and wouldn't do. Player Road Rash once with friends and the first time I went over the handle bars the friends I was with said I turned green.
Gaming: suits cause a problem, nothing bigger than a hold out in the small of my back with skirts, ankle holster for pants.
Snow/ rain gear, easy. bulky jackets, tight pants.
A cleaning lady in baggy overalls, no problem.
Under a boyfriend jacket, no problem, as long as I don't reach up too high.
specially made riding boots that had a pocket built into the top to allow a hold out (rl boots are tight at the top to make your legs look longer)
biker jackets, for real riders, have pannels and padding built in for protection, easily cover a gun.
At the beach, over a swim suit where a loud hawaiian type shirt, unbuttoned A shoulder holster will chaff but guys will be looking at the skin showing. you just can't go in the water and this won't work at a pool.
upper class bits like horse riding gear, yatching or club parties that let me get away with a jacket easy.
Purses are right out. too damn easy to get seperated from, too difficult to get to, and too obvious. I once had a job as a bodyguard in an upper class area(in game)
where I was on a tennis court. Hid the gunin the gear bag. baseball grenade in the ball can. The GM gave me a -2 penalty when it went down because I was worn out form the tennis.
Basically anything sexy showing skin make it difficult.
*Tries not to laugh too hard at HullBreach's post as he walks away.*
| QUOTE (HullBreach) |
| It comes down to accepting personal responsibillity for [the] safety [ ] of those around you. |
And what gives you that right? Are you going to take personal responsibility for their eating habits next? Making sure they get enough sleep at night?
~J
| QUOTE (Schaeffer @ Aug 10 2006, 07:45 AM) | ||
Dog is/was a convicted felon, by his own admission, and many years ago. If that is indeed the case, he cannot legally own a firearm. |
That isn't always true. There are certain procedures one can go though to make a felony conviction go away. If a conviction is expunged it no longer effects your civil rights, including gun ownership. Of course, getting a conviction expunged isn't always easy.
Here is a neat little trick from smuggling weapons. Take a small two-shot derringer and stuff it into a latex condom. Swallow it. Walk through security. Go to the restroom and vomit. You have successfully snook a holdout pistol past security. With Ex-Ex rounds and the SR4 rule-set you'll actually be able to kill someone. The great thing is that this even defeats standard body cavity searches. In order for them to detect it they'd have to stick a camera down your throat.
Of course, this does not work well if you have to get to yur weapon quickly.
And one thing I've learned from an episode of Oprah focusing on prison violence, you can wrap a Rambo 3 survival knife in thick plastic and keister it without a substantial risk of fatal injury. Just use a lot of lubricant.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| guys take the anti gun rally elsewhere! This is a forum for shadowrun. A game in which people carry and use guns. |
Take all RL rallies elsewhere, both pro and anti, on any issue. Shadowrunners carrying and using guns has absolutely fucking nothing to do with RL social issues of gun ownership.
I think it would depend greatly on the type of firearm your character was carrying or needed. An Ares Predator would cause more problems than a Streetline Special, for example.
But, assuming your PC is not cybered, the only I can come up with is a pouch that would strap across the chest (or across the abdomen), and worn beneath the clothing, the belly-band method mentioned earlier.
Our 'coon shaman wore a tophat all the time. Fastened underneath was a grenade. One time, with guns pointed at him, he cooly asked if he could show his captors a magic trick, by pulling a "bunny" out of his hat... Sarcastically, they said "Sure". The rest became gaming-group history.
Snow_Fox, Your ideas with the "tennis" player and the hand grenade are neat.
But, assuming your PC is not cybered, the only I can come up with is a pouch that would strap across the chest (or across the abdomen), and worn beneath the clothing, the belly-band method mentioned earlier.
Our 'coon shaman wore a tophat all the time. Fastened underneath was a grenade. One time, with guns pointed at him, he cooly asked if he could show his captors a magic trick, by pulling a "bunny" out of his hat... Sarcastically, they said "Sure". The rest became gaming-group history.
Snow_Fox, Your ideas with the "tennis" player and the hand grenade are neat.
As long as we're outside the box, how about disguised weapons? SotA: 2064 has rules for disguised objects of all sorts (including some ridiculous ones).
In the moderately dystopian world of Shadowrun, playing a professional criminal, it's hard to see caring too much about losing the thing and some dimwit getting ahold of it. There's always the gun cane (for that set) and bracer as well.
There are alternatives to concealing a gun on your person or in your belongings as well. Recall the scene in "A Better Tomorrow" where Chow Yun Fat secreted three or four .45s in the vases before opening up. Female characters with the appropriate mindset (and money for cosmetic surgery if necessary) could use the slinky dress as a distraction while their big male teammate smuggles in an arsenal under his trenchcoat. Bad if you get separated, but you have the itty bitty holdout or cybergun for that situation.
With the advent of capsule rounds, I'd think that the hold out/light pistol's uselessness has decisively come to an end, anyhow. You're Ares Predator is no more lethal than a pellet of Seven-7 to the face after all. A Walther Pb-120 loading EX EX packs a pretty mean punch, too.
In the moderately dystopian world of Shadowrun, playing a professional criminal, it's hard to see caring too much about losing the thing and some dimwit getting ahold of it. There's always the gun cane (for that set) and bracer as well.
There are alternatives to concealing a gun on your person or in your belongings as well. Recall the scene in "A Better Tomorrow" where Chow Yun Fat secreted three or four .45s in the vases before opening up. Female characters with the appropriate mindset (and money for cosmetic surgery if necessary) could use the slinky dress as a distraction while their big male teammate smuggles in an arsenal under his trenchcoat. Bad if you get separated, but you have the itty bitty holdout or cybergun for that situation.
With the advent of capsule rounds, I'd think that the hold out/light pistol's uselessness has decisively come to an end, anyhow. You're Ares Predator is no more lethal than a pellet of Seven-7 to the face after all. A Walther Pb-120 loading EX EX packs a pretty mean punch, too.
I'm neither for or against guns. I'm pro-polearm! Yeah, that's the way to go.
Seriously though, as a quick off topic question, my wife (also 5'1", but probably not nearly as good condition as Snow Fox) is considering getting a firearm for personal protection, since this is not the safest neighborhood (last month some guys were trying to drag a woman into the apartment across the way to rape her). I've been watching DS carefully for suggestions on what to get (WR's 1911 and Fox's Cheetah are both noted), but I'm wondering where the best place to start researching would be?
As for concealing guns... The best suggestion I could make is make them look like something else, or do something weird so it's actually built around the body (everyone has seen the stupid movie grappling guns built around the user's forearm). It would certainly have a penalty to shooting, but it would be much easier to hide.
Seriously though, as a quick off topic question, my wife (also 5'1", but probably not nearly as good condition as Snow Fox) is considering getting a firearm for personal protection, since this is not the safest neighborhood (last month some guys were trying to drag a woman into the apartment across the way to rape her). I've been watching DS carefully for suggestions on what to get (WR's 1911 and Fox's Cheetah are both noted), but I'm wondering where the best place to start researching would be?
As for concealing guns... The best suggestion I could make is make them look like something else, or do something weird so it's actually built around the body (everyone has seen the stupid movie grappling guns built around the user's forearm). It would certainly have a penalty to shooting, but it would be much easier to hide.
the best thing to get would be whatever you feel comfortable carrying and using.
go to a range that rents and spend some time trying out a few handguns.
I personally like the Browning Hi-power and hate berettas, but others don't share my sentiments. or my accuracy with said hi-power.
go to a range that rents and spend some time trying out a few handguns.
I personally like the Browning Hi-power and hate berettas, but others don't share my sentiments. or my accuracy with said hi-power.
and on the other side, I never warmed to my Browning and love both my beretta's, it's the maker of choice for me. Showing it is just a thing about taste.
I do like the idea of renting guns to try them out. The range I got to does that. Unless she's really willing to practice, nothing lighter than a .380. but too much larger on a small woman and concealment becomes a problem. (see the rest of this thread) For serious shooting my best weapon is a S&W .357 loaded with 38 specials but no way I can carry that concealed.
For your wife go to a couple of gun shops and talk to them. See what they say for recommendations. see if they go at once for the most expensive gun or explain what they have and what will work for your discription. In house a 9mm anything will seem wonderful but if your wife is not comfortable or jumps at the first bang, it's worse than useless. For a decent gun expect to pay around $350-$400. It doesn't have to be new. As long as well maintained 'used' is just as good. All my guns were preowned and were maybe half the price of new.
I do like the idea of renting guns to try them out. The range I got to does that. Unless she's really willing to practice, nothing lighter than a .380. but too much larger on a small woman and concealment becomes a problem. (see the rest of this thread) For serious shooting my best weapon is a S&W .357 loaded with 38 specials but no way I can carry that concealed.
For your wife go to a couple of gun shops and talk to them. See what they say for recommendations. see if they go at once for the most expensive gun or explain what they have and what will work for your discription. In house a 9mm anything will seem wonderful but if your wife is not comfortable or jumps at the first bang, it's worse than useless. For a decent gun expect to pay around $350-$400. It doesn't have to be new. As long as well maintained 'used' is just as good. All my guns were preowned and were maybe half the price of new.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Aug 9 2006, 08:36 PM) |
| you go grocery shopping in Mogadishu or something? Prepared is one thing but do you actually think you're gonna need all that? |
My loadout is pretty similar, actually... sidearm IWB on one side, two magazines OWB on the other, and a folding knife in the front-side pocket.
Part of it's the training I've recieved... if you're not engaged with a target and you've fired the gun, you swap out the partially expended magazine for a full one. There's also magazine failures... hard to cure without at least one spare mag. There's also the "stupid, stupid shit" factor... with your adrenaline load way up and a speed-draw grip on the gun, you might end up dropping the magazine when you didn't intend to (had this happen once during a drill).
Fumbling around on the ground for my ammo isn't my idea of a good time. I'm considering swapping to one full-size spare mag and a can of pepper spray... 31 rounds of ammunition should be enough for me to get way the hell out of Dodge, and the less-lethal option is a good thing to have.The other part of it is balance... two mags on the opposite side of the hip from a Glock balance out the weight pretty well. It's actually easier to carry with the spare mags than without.
Knives are just ridiculously useful in daily life, in addition to having defensive uses.
Nezumi: if you're looking for smaller-frame, lighter-recoiling guns, the Glock 19 or 26, the metal-framed Kahrs, and the Sig 232 and 239 all fit the bill and have a reputation for being reliable and accurate (the Glocks I can attest to personally... I realized a few years ago that in the first 15 years he'd owned his G19, my father hadn't ever stripped it for cleaning despite having thousands of rounds through the gun). I'm not personally a fan of revolvers as defensive weapons... I feel that the higher level of complexity of an automatic is easy to train around. However, they're undeniably reliable and if they're what she can shoot well, they're what she should go for, and the variety that're available are staggering. Caliberwise, I'm of the opinion that .380 is marginal, but works with the right ammunition. 9mm with the right ammunition is fine, and picking something heavier than that is really up to the skill and comfort level of the shooter.
The Carry Issues subforum over at GlockTalk wouldn't be a bad place to ask these kinds of questions, and while there's a pro-Glock bias, you'll get a pretty good variety of suggestions. The rest of their subforums can be interesting, as well.
.... WAAAY off topic.
PCs could modify an air tool to work as a dart or capsule gun, if hooked up to a canister of compressed air, then go in disguised as mechanics or maintenance crew. Some of the folding survival-type rifles (and oddities like the Kel-Tec SU-16 and SUB-2000) could be concealed in something like a flute case, if properly modified.
Shadowrun has laser weapons. You could conceal them as almost anything, if done properly, as you could take the various wired components and fit them all over the place inside of whatever device you chose to place them in. Power consumption becomes your only issue. "Hey, check out this loser with his old-school laptop!" zapzapzapzapzap "Hey, Chuck... pass me the "spare battery" for my laptop, eh?" You could concievably take the internal components of an Ares Redline and build them into nearly anything... walking stick, big flashlight, tape dispenser, desktop phone, a stereo, a large book, the list goes on.
Then there's the poor-man's boomstick from Cannon Companion... I can't remember the name of the weapon, but it was essentially a muzzle-loader that you stuffed with black powder and random street trash. If you can smuggle in the powder and find yourself a decent igniter and something small and metal to fit inside a tube, you could probably build a pipe-gun on-site, using a similar effect.
Building a gun into something bizarre today usually involves huge amounts of money being spent... but I'm willing to bet that by 2070, renting some time on a nanofactory or a CAD/CAM shop is much more doable.
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| Knives are just ridiculously useful in daily life, in addition to having defensive uses. |
i'd have to check, but don't many states have laws against carrying concealed blades longer than 4"? i've never heard of a concealed-carry knife permit.
At least some do. However, blades 4" and shorter are still amazingly useful, though defensive usefulness does suffer. The blade I usually carry can't be longer than 1.5", but I wouldn't leave it behind.
~J
~J
Seattle-area law doesn't consider a folding blade under 3.5" to be a weapon (that is, you don't need a permit and the cops won't take action against you for having one). We can't get a permit to carry anything larger, but a knife that size is more than enough to do the majority of things you're going to need to do with it. Most defensive knife training I've seen is aimed at knives this size.
She won't be carrying it around, so portability isn't that much of a concern. But as I said, she isn't big on upper body strength, so something with a lot of kick isn't a good idea (that said, she's more interested in intimidation than actually using it, and we both know enough to know that as long as it isn't a .22, it should greatly decrease the odds of her getting in trouble). Carry laws are fairly restrictive here, so she'll have to make do with pepper spray when out of the house, but she doesn't go out too much so it isn't a huge concern.
Thank you for the advice.
Thank you for the advice.
Regardging carrying knives: Bear in mind, if you enter a federal building like a post office or VA hospital you leave state jurisdiction and enter federal jurisdiction, and their limit on concealed knives is, IIRC 2", no matter what state you're in.
That's why you stick your knife in the door when you walk in and pull it out when you leave.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| She won't be carrying it around, so portability isn't that much of a concern. |
Jeez... I didn't think to look at your location. My condolences, and best wishes for your safety.
Having a gun for intimidation is kind of a two-edged sword. The minute you point it at someone, the signal you're giving them is "You're about to get shot." People react in all kinds of funny ways to that. If actually shooting them isn't in the plan, a weapon like a taser might be a better idea.
A full-size 9mm (assuming that the weight or size of the gun doesn't become a problem) has very light recoil.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| That's why you stick your knife in the door when you walk in and pull it out when you leave. ~J |
Or stash it in the garden.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Seriously though, as a quick off topic question, my wife (also 5'1", but probably not nearly as good condition as Snow Fox) is considering getting a firearm for personal protection, since this is not the safest neighborhood (last month some guys were trying to drag a woman into the apartment across the way to rape her). I've been watching DS carefully for suggestions on what to get (WR's 1911 and Fox's Cheetah are both noted), but I'm wondering where the best place to start researching would be? |
Sorry for the off topic comment, but... Yikes, where did this occur? Just wondering since I live in the area too.
Oh and have you ever been to the Dulles Gun Expo? They have it three times a year and there's some good selection.
Back on topic: Usually I like the approach in game to disguise as a handyman or janitor where you have lots of items in a tool box and you could possibly hide a few weapons in a broken down state.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| Squire sent me an add for something called "thunderwear" mens undershorts with a holster. I don't want to know if they come in panties. |
Well now THATS safe sex.
I have this greatly entertaining image of a pink thong with a chromed 1911 stuck to the back...
Im VERY partial to the 3" blade I carry. Its rare I can keep anything sharp, never mind sharp enough to manage a poor shave with. IIRC a 3 1/2" is the max your supposed to have in MA.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| She won't be carrying it around, so portability isn't that much of a concern. But as I said, she isn't big on upper body strength, so something with a lot of kick isn't a good idea (that said, she's more interested in intimidation than actually using it, and we both know enough to know that as long as it isn't a .22, it should greatly decrease the odds of her getting in trouble). Carry laws are fairly restrictive here, so she'll have to make do with pepper spray when out of the house, but she doesn't go out too much so it isn't a huge concern. Thank you for the advice. |
I either missed it or no one mentioned it yet - realistically speaking, if your wife is 5'1", then whether her hands are big enough so that she can grip the gun and get her index finger around the trigger comfortably might very well be a bigger issue than anything having to do with recoil - that is, if you want her to be able to use the gun if needed, even if you don't expect her to.
That could make a revolver (since they don't need to accomodate a magazine, the grips are usually smaller and better designed to fit the hand) a better choice for her than an automatic.
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) | ||
Sorry for the off topic comment, but... Yikes, where did this occur? Just wondering since I live in the area too. |
We're in Maryland, the corner of Georgia and Connecticut. Fortunately my brother in law is in the apartment and happened to be up at 3am so he heard everything going on and called the cops. He got some major kudos for that.
No, never been to the Dulles gun expo. However we have an excellent range nearby, where we can even fire SMGs! Whooo!
Shrike - tasers are illegal in this county and likely most other in this state. Ironic that it's far easier to get and carry a gun illegally than it is to carry any self-defense device worth mentioning. Looking at the laws, it might be easiest if I got myself certified as a PI then got a CCW permit through that.
mmu - that's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. She does have tiny hands. I'd almost suggest a rifle, but we're in an apartment, so that's not good for storage or quick use.
Give the rifle to someone else and leave them on overwatch by a window.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Lindt) |
| Its rare I can keep anything sharp, never mind sharp enough to manage a poor shave with. |
you don't want it that sharp anyway. it doesn't afford any real advantage over a working edge, and it makes it more likely to chip or ding.
Unless he wants to shave with it.
~J
~J
if he's a real man, like me, the same argument still applies!
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Shrike - tasers are illegal in this county and likely most other in this state. Ironic that it's far easier to get and carry a gun illegally than it is to carry any self-defense device worth mentioning. Looking at the laws, it might be easiest if I got myself certified as a PI then got a CCW permit through that. mmu - that's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. She does have tiny hands. I'd almost suggest a rifle, but we're in an apartment, so that's not good for storage or quick use. |
That's a hell of a runaround, but if you can do it, my personal opinion is that you should. YMMV, but if a year down the road you decide, for whatever reason, that you've got a compelling need to carry, you won't have weeks or months of delays between you and that if you've already got the permit.
The rifle idea isn't bad. Something in .223 with frangible ammunition would be a decent choice, as their recoil is practically nonexistent, and the ammunition will overpenetrate less than most handgun rounds. I've got smallish hands, but find that the basic AR-15 grip is more comfortable if I build it up some with something like a Hogue grip. If nothing else, there's enough parts made for them out there that you should be able to find something comfortable.
If she's not carrying the weapon on her, the secure storage options for a rifle are about as fast as those for a handgun. I think my biggest concerns would be a gun grab, and the amount of noise you're going to produce firing a short-barreled .223 indoors.
Part of the beauty of a short barreled 5.56 is that fireball and bang. After the second shot anything in front of you is usually too busy voiding its bowels to bother attacking you! LOL
Hmmm this brings up an interesting point, how does one represent the significantly reduced penetration and energy of a rifle round exiting a shorter barrel in the new SR4 rules? Would it be more appropriate to reduce the armor penetration or the damage statistic?
I have a player who asked about using a Bushmaster Carbon-15 pistol in-game, and it occured to me that those are surprisingly appropriate weapons for shadowrunners.
Hmmm this brings up an interesting point, how does one represent the significantly reduced penetration and energy of a rifle round exiting a shorter barrel in the new SR4 rules? Would it be more appropriate to reduce the armor penetration or the damage statistic?
I have a player who asked about using a Bushmaster Carbon-15 pistol in-game, and it occured to me that those are surprisingly appropriate weapons for shadowrunners.
The AK-97 carbine would be one example of this. Basically, it handles like a submachinegun in every respect. I realize it's not entirely accurate, but the system is granular enough that it wouldn't seriously bug me.
Fireball and bang are all well and good, but there's something to be said for being able to hear later in life
If nothing else, I'm a fan of flash suppressors simply because they mean I can continue to engage the target without having to look through eight cubic feet of fire.
Fireball and bang are all well and good, but there's something to be said for being able to hear later in life
If nothing else, I'm a fan of flash suppressors simply because they mean I can continue to engage the target without having to look through eight cubic feet of fire.
Keep away from long arms, great in the open but in a building or apartment, with imminant close combat, I'd prefer a pistol. In RL part of the israeli success in the Golan Heights was because the Uzi was more compact than the AK-47 once the IDF got into the bunkers.
Do not go for bang and flash and 'scare' factor. if you shoot a gun at a person you want to kill that person. To do anything else, to think anything else is stupidity and litkely to get you killed. DO NOT BE UNDER ANY ILLUSIONS. If you have a gun and use a gun, it is for the purpose of taking life. Do not shoot to wound. Do not discharge the weapon to scare them, have the mind set that if you pull the trigger, you are intending to kill will all the ramifications.
Unless the shooter is good, stay away from .22 and .25's there's no real take down so he might keep coming. Get too large and you'll scare yourself. Yes I can handle my .357 but the .380 sit's nicely in my hand. Practice with a weaqpon before you buy it if you can. PM Raygun for more details, this is his speciality.
Do not go for bang and flash and 'scare' factor. if you shoot a gun at a person you want to kill that person. To do anything else, to think anything else is stupidity and litkely to get you killed. DO NOT BE UNDER ANY ILLUSIONS. If you have a gun and use a gun, it is for the purpose of taking life. Do not shoot to wound. Do not discharge the weapon to scare them, have the mind set that if you pull the trigger, you are intending to kill will all the ramifications.
Unless the shooter is good, stay away from .22 and .25's there's no real take down so he might keep coming. Get too large and you'll scare yourself. Yes I can handle my .357 but the .380 sit's nicely in my hand. Practice with a weaqpon before you buy it if you can. PM Raygun for more details, this is his speciality.
Of the weapon is small enough, you are careful enough, and you're in no danger of sitting down or falling backwards, there's a very interesting way to sneak it in. You just might not be able to sit for a few days if you try this with a heavy pistol or. say, a shotgun.
However, if you do end up falling backwards while hiding a weapon that way, I'm pretty sure you'll welcome being beaten unconcious by the guards.
However, if you do end up falling backwards while hiding a weapon that way, I'm pretty sure you'll welcome being beaten unconcious by the guards.
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