Plus Ca' Change, neh?

Plus c'est la meme chose...

Norinco?

I always knew you were a little red...

I like Stephen Chow movies and Chinese food, too. And I shop at Wal-Mart occasionally. Yeah. You're right. But I'm Commie Ray with a decent copy of the friggin' coolest combat shotgun ever made! One for me, and one for my proletariat homeys...

/me shoots Raygun in the leg to see if he's real, or just someone playing a prank.

Sorry about that. One of the members got shot in the leg. Now, to maintain equality, all members must be shot in the leg.

Edit: You don't play DnD without learning that you never poke something with a stick.

Speaking (typing?) to the beginning topic, I saw a movie on a recent flight about spies, and their gear. One of the items mentioned was a gun concealed in a lipstick tube. they didn't go over caliber, and i would assume it to be .32 or less. Not exactly quick reach conceal carry gun, but sort of cool.

I think there was also a gun concealed in a pen. Not sure of this one as I was falling asleep during this portion of the show.

In SR I would think you could hide a gun in a comlink or some kind of media player such as a sim deck.

For social occasions I small explosive disguised as a piece of jewelry might work out ok. A large broach and watch could contain enough kaboomite to be useful, especially coupled with a hardy dose of imagination. Not a gun, I know, just another option.

In case he actually meant a Derringer, it might have been something like this. Muzzle velocity is going be, uhh, pretty low, but it's definitely better than nothing.

I was thinking about this, and it occured to me that with the strength of some of the composites and polymers mentioned in the game, it wouldn't be to hard to make an assasination weapon based on the Bang-Sticks folks use for gator hunting down here.

Basically it would be a small high-tensile polymer tube loaded with a single round of ammunition. It could be hermetically sealed as well to spoof chemsniffers. Basically you would jam it in the targets ribs, it would go off, then you would ditch it and haul outta there.

The KGB used a simalar device disguised as an umbrella and even a rolled up newspapaer to kill some defectors back in the day. These fired time-release pellets filled with Ricin though.

Or even something similar to the polymer weapon used by John Malkovich's character, the would-be assassin in "In the Line of Fire". Of course, that wouldn't be very quick to use if starting off unassembled.

If sneaking the weapon in is the only prerequisite, how about parts scattered across one's body, basically secured beneath fake skin? Sort of "taped" to a runner's body?

For that matter, get access to some kind of delivery that goes into the secure location. Outsource your smuggling...

Most advice tends towards "put it in something/under something/wear looser clothes" because there's really not an efficient way to conceal an inch thick, several inches tall/long hunk of metal between your skin and a piece of stretchy cloth

My usual wear tends towards slacks/shorts and a tucked-in, well-fitted t-shirt. Guns do not agree with this at all (as a shirt intended to show off what's underneath it does exactly that). So, with that in mind, I throw a loose, phenomenally loud hawaiian shirt on over the clothes underneath to cover the butt end of the gun where it rises above the belt and the two mags on the opposite side. I'm thinking about tucking a few beads of shot into the lower corners of the shirts where they open, to make them weigh a little more and reduce blow-open problems on windy days.

Actually, most people prefer to tell women that because women are "the weaker sex." Really, it's because most people are stupid and those weapons fit better in purses. Plus, some women have their hands actually hurt from the recoil after firing a shot, but this problem plagues guys as well. Thus, why 9mm are extremely popular.

As for how you play a woman: Well, it requires a Perform (Women) check, a woman, and a music sheet. After all, you need to know what you'll be performing while you're playing a woman.

Yeah! Maybe the "Janet Reno Dance Party" will return to TV!

They say with Browning Hi-Power's, you either love 'em or hate 'em. That's true with any choice of firearm, I guess. Personally, I have problems with the pistol's longer hammer spur "biting" the web of my hand. For my part, I prefer the 1911 over the HP.
I was shooting one land over from a friend trying out his .357 Magnum, ported hand cannon, and I have to say, the blast from that thing was rattling my head something awful. He liked it though -- go figure.
Of course, I carry neither. My carry-gun as I've said before is a Glock 19, loaded with Speer Gold Dot +P JHP's. Recoil is not a problem, and the accuracy is great, plus it doesn't take up much room on my mammoth-petite frame.

When it came to concealing firearms, my character Judas was tits. Never have I ever played such a heavily-armed character.

He was never caught off guard without his 2 Colt Manhunters (dual-holster shoulder harness), 2 Browning Max-Powers (one in the cyberholster of each cyberarm), a Czeska vz/120 at the small of his back, and a Walther PB120 tucked under his member. He would also carry another Czeska on his ankle if he wasn't wearing bloused fatigue pants. All holsters were concealable, and his standard attire includes a Mortimer of London greatcoat to keep everything nice and covered up.

This also doesn't take into account his cyber SMG and cyber shotgun, which were always fully loaded.

Felt recoil is, by definition, subjective (as are my following observations).

9mm and .40 are both what I call "sharp" calibers, in that it feels like they apply all of their force to the shooter in a very short period of time. 10mm and .45 are "shove" calibers... while they've got more actual recoil, they feel like the apply it over a longer period of time, taking the sting out of shooting them.

When I started shooting, I think I was about 10. I was shooting Weaver (where the right hand absorbs most of the recoil, and the left hand primarily stabilizes the gun) as that's how I'd been taught. .45 from a 191X-era 1911 was not a particular issue... the gun was heavy, the caliber shoved rather than being sharp, and in general, life was good. I could thump away with that fat-ass all day. The P-38 and the Glock 19 that we had however, hurt my hands to fire... that sharper round, combined with my not-particularly-skilled grip, made it pretty unpleasant to shoot.

Fast-forward a few years, and I'd put on enough size (puberty'll do that to ya) that 9mm really didn't bug me any more. Firing 10mm, .45, and .44 Mag didn't pose any particular problems in terms of impact, although after a few cylinders of .44, my hands would start to tingle. .40 had the same problem I'd had with 9mm, though... it stung when I fired, and I really didn't like the caliber for that reason.

One day, though, I had taken a friend of mine from Canada to "Americanize" him (that is, teach him to shoot a bunch of stuff they won't let you own in Canada). We had a digital camera along, and captured some video. That's the first time I was ever able to really get a look at myself shooting... and I realized something about the heavier-caliber guns. While they weren't uncomfortable to shoot, it took me noticeably longer to get them back on target for a follow-up shot than 9mm did. That same "shove" that made them comfy also gave them a *lot* of muzzle rise. One-handed on a .45, rapid-fire was nearly impossible for me, with a double-tap being right out. 9mm, while a "sharp" round, barely jumped off target at all, allowing for rapid, accurate shooting.

When I decided to start carrying, I thought about caliber pretty heavily and decided to learn .40, figuring that having gotten shoulders in college would help. I definitely decided I'd rather be faster and more accurate than be packing a heavier round, which ruled out 10mm/.45. Being pretty familiar with the Glock 19, I picked up a Glock 23 (same frame, .40 instead of 9mm).

Breaking that gun in, I was still using the Weaver stance I'd learned to shoot in way back in the day. I was pretty happy to learn that the sting of .40 wasn't really a problem anymore (saving me from having to convert the gun to 9mm), but after 120 rounds or so my right hand was a little tingly from the abuse. Ah well.

The class I took a month or so later had listed among it's requirements "Handgun, two spare magazines, rigid belt holster, and 600 rounds of ammunition (minimum)." My hand was not looking forwards to this. However, this class taught shooters another stance and grip that was essentially new to me called Isoceles: both hands and arms support against an equal amount of the recoil, and the left hand provides most of the pressure on the grip while the right provides trigger control. The first day had about 150 rounds fired during it, and I left thinking "hey, that wasn't so bad."

The second day had 450 rounds fired, and at the end of the day the only part of my hands that felt bad was the top of the web, where I'd been chewed by the edge of the slide a couple of times during fast draw-and-fire drills.

Caliber, gun weight, frame-to-hand fit, grip, body size, arm strength, and skill all play into how much it's going to hurt (if at all) when you pull the trigger. The vast majority of the people I was in that class (10 total) with had 9mm... I was one of two .40s, and there was one .45 (carried by my father, who comes from the 'fatter is better' mindset). All of the instructors carried 9mm. The reason 9mm is one of the most recommended calibers for smaller shooters is because almost anyone can get it back on target quickly, the variety of guns (more to the point, variety of SIZE of guns) made in that caliber is huge (making it easier to find one that really fits you), and the problem with "sharpness" can be fixed in most cases with a well-fitted gun and good training.

Both of you drop the political argument NOW!
Take it elsewhere.

Yes mommy.

Telling someone to drop an argument at Dumpshock? I thought you'd been here longer than that.

It's pretty obvious to anyone that nothing even remotely like the gestapo is going on under the current or previous American administration. Taking a joking reference and then trying to turn it into a false analogy just hurts your credibility.

That being said, 9/11 would've been stopped if the Patriot Act had been in effect back then. The authorities were on to several of the terrorists, but they didn't have enough for warrants.

I drip surl all over you, Smokeskin.

Washington's a pretty gun-friendly state, but one of the things that's nearly impossible here is the worthwhile ownership of any NFA firearms.

Automatics are illegal to own. Suppressors are legal to own, but discharging a suppressed weapon is considered a gross misdemeanor (up to $5k in fines, up to 365 days in jail, and you'll probably lose the right to own or carry firearms in the state).

Amusingly, you can drive to Idaho or Oregon, should you choose, and fire the weapons without issue. Sadly, I live 3+ hours from Oregon, and nearly 6 from Idaho, or I might actually consider it worthwhile.

I'm not the guy you're asking, but "large bore" to me means 10mm/.41 Mag/.45 and up, in terms of power.

So any manstopper rounds (the only ones worth using), then.

I'd be interested in seeing that.

Bore size has nothing to do with "power". Generally, people tend to make this distinction at about .40 caliber, with anything greater being "large bore". But it's pretty much subjective. Bore size should also not have much to do (directly) with felt recoil; the weight of the bullet, the powder charge behind it, and the pressure it's fired at are the main culprits. Though larger caliber bullets do tend to mean more case capacity, which means less pressure at a given charge weight, so that unpleasant "thwack" of muzzle blast tends to be lessened somewhat compared to a similar load with a smaller case.

Hey Shrike, what kind of gun were you using in 10mm? In my own experience, 10mm Auto has some of the "sharpest" recoil of all of the guns you mentioned, but I guess that would depend pretty heavily on the load and gun you're using. The Glock 20 is pretty bad with hotter loads, especially a 200 grainer @ 1200 fps. The Tanfoglio (EAA Witness) not so much so, but still not anything I would say "shoves" the way the .45 ACP does.

I've found that if I'm firing more than one gun in a session it affects who the kick is perceived. If I've fired off a box of the heavy revolver- .357 or .38 special and then draw the .380, I don't feel any kick and the accuracy is up.

If I've fired off a box of the .25 then do the .380 I really feel the recoil. it feels punishing.