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HappyDaze
While most Attributes and Skills are pretty clear in showing what a given rating equates to, Initiation Grade is a little less clear. I'm curious to know what others rate as the benchmarks of Initiate Grade in their games.

In your game...

What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?


Now beyond your own game, what are some example Initiate NPCs from various official sourcebooks and what are their given IGs?
mfb
my game is SR3, so take that into account.

veteran corp/gummint security adept/mage would be grade 2-4.

a hotshot corp/gummint research mage would be grade 7-9.

a veteran runner would be grade 4-8.

a non-great would be grade 9+.

a GD or IE would be grade 25+, possibly much higher.

the magically-active Ghosts in Corporate Punishment were all grade 3-4.
Slithery D
I think mfb's ranges are pretty good, but recognize there are intiates who want lots of flexible abilities and initiates who just want more power. For some purposes it will be more useful to take six grades of initiation for the metamagical abilities but never raise your Magic anywhere near your increased cap; others may only take two or three but push their Magic to the max.
knasser
QUOTE (mfb)
my game is SR3, so take that into account.

veteran corp/gummint security adept/mage would be grade 2-4.

a hotshot corp/gummint research mage would be grade 7-9.

a veteran runner would be grade 4-8.

a non-great would be grade 9+.

a GD or IE would be grade 25+, possibly much higher.

the magically-active Ghosts in Corporate Punishment were all grade 3-4.


Wow! Just... wow!

You'd rarely find a wage slave mage with initiate grades in my game. The real head honchos might be Initiate 2, but they'd be more in a supervisory role than running guard duty. I suppose that I just don't see initiation as being part of a career path, I see it as something much deeper that is likely to either occur in the more radical and esoteric magician or to lead a magician to become such.

Initiate grade might more commonly occur in some corporate "shadowrunner", such as a special agent despatched to hunt the players. At any rate, the highest grade corporate mage I've had yet was a grade 3 in just such a role.

Anyway, break down as follows:

"veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?
Non-initiate, but high skills and good spirit support.

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?
Grade 1-2.

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?
Grade 1-2.

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?
Possibly non-initiated or 0-3. 4 for a major player.

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?
God knows. Probably 15.

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?
Don't have them in the game, but a major player could be 4+

Basically, the only characters in the game that will exceed 3 are likely to be big individual players. E.g. the powerful shaman the PCs must seek out, or the dark avenger that is out there somewhere. These guys could be grade 6. That indicates big power. I like it this way, because one of the appeals of Shadowrun to me is that everyone is vulnerable. There are no level 15 fighters. You can create a supremely skilled character with a lot of ware, but he can still be taken down by poor planning or a grunt with a machinegun and some luck. That feels realistic. Once someone hits grade 4-6, I make them more powerful with better planning or greater resources. Lofwyr isn't an invulnerable demi-god in my game. He's deadly because he has the resources of a first world nation to draw on. He can pay your mother to turn you in.

Your game may vary, of course.
James McMurray
QUOTE (HappyDaze)
What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?[/i]

Why does it matter? They've got "plot power" and can therefor do anything necessary to the story.
Slithery D
QUOTE (knasser)
Wow! Just... wow!

You'd rarely find a wage slave mage with initiate grades in my game. The real head honchos might be Initiate 2, but they'd be more in a supervisory role than running guard duty. I suppose that I just don't see initiation as being part of a career path, I see it as something much deeper that is likely to either occur in the more radical and esoteric magician or to lead a magician to become such.

Not realistic - one grade of initiation isn't very expensive in Karma terms. 18 points of Karma to push Magic from 5 to 6, or 11 points of Karma for a grade of group initiation, the social/professional benefits of membership, and a metamagical technique. Many of them like shielding aren't very useful to civvies (or at all at Grade 1), but plenty are useful with Grade 1, and many of those for non combat uses, including in one category or the other Channeling (possesory only), Divining (good for all walks of life), Invoking, Masking, Psychometry, Quickening, etc. Plus metaplanar quests!

So as a cost/benefit analysis, you should see a fair number of moderate karma mages take a grade or two of initiation just for the metamagic that will be more useful than one point of Magic and raising your Banishing skill from 2 to 3.

Then there are the social benefits of being in a group. Not being an initiate past a point in your career should be embarassing to a modern mage. There are initiatory groups for undergraduates learning magic. There are local professional associations. There are local do gooder NGOs that do charity and political advocacy. 11 Karma, 9 with an ordeal, is cheap for that kind of improved access to resources, friends, etc.

Young mages still learning, unsophisticated ones in a slum, dumb ones doing unsophisticated, easy magical security - they probably shouldn't have a grade of initiation. But most mages worth facing off with or negotiation with on a higher than street level shadowrun should. It may not make much a difference if you find a competent Grade 1-2 corporate security mage who has Shielding/Centering, but it makes some, and he really should have it.
stevebugge
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 10 2006, 04:30 PM)
While most Attributes and Skills are pretty clear in showing what a given rating equates to, Initiation Grade is a little less clear.  I'm curious to know what others rate as the benchmarks of Initiate Grade in their games.

In your game...

What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?

Mostly non-initiated, maybe a 1 thrown in for a particularly high-sensitivity area.

QUOTE
What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?


Depends on corp and position. 0 for most of them but a lead researcher for a major player may be as high as 4.

QUOTE
What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?


Probably between 0-3. A Prime runner may be 4 or more depending on plot importance

QUOTE
What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?


Depends on age and significance to the story.

QUOTE
What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?


High enough to scare the hell out of a PC

QUOTE
What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?


See answer for Great Dragons

The guys who are likely to be higher grade Initiates are the leaders of magical groups, Insect or Toxic Shamans who are major "bad guys" in a story arc, Enemies.
Slithery D
The rarity of high level initiates in knasser's game is also inconsistent with past SR supplements. Tir Nan Og had Grade 8+ magicians (plural) at the head of the various Path of the Wheel iniatory groups, the Black Lodge in Threats had lots of mid to high grade initiates, plenty of published adventures have Grade 4 hit/security mages (albeit named and on specialized teams).

What I would caution against is having a Grade 6 initiate also have a Magic of 12. That will be rare. Initiation for metamagic is one thing; findign the karma to push all of your abilities up through Magic increases is a much taller order. I expect to find brilliant corporate magic researchers who have eight grades of initiation, lots of metamagical techniques, know lots of funky spells, and only have a Magic value of 8-9. The balance between metamagic and power reflected in Magic attribute should depend on a mage's job and whether he needs more subtle abilities or raw power to make sure his spells hit hard the first time and all that stuff.
James McMurray
Security mages with useful metamagics (which is almost all of them) should get pay raises, resulting in more sec mages with those abilities.
Charon
Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate. It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs. It's kind of like Karate. Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs. It seems obvious to me that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


I could easily design a veteran military mage NPC who has been in various special force unit for years, who has 5 in automatic, 5 of agility and is in top shape but still only has 5 in magic!

---

What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?

Probably zero unless by veteran you mean he's part of some elite group.

Then 1-4 depending on how elite this group is. Ghosts, Jaguar Guars etc.

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?

Depends. Really, it's his knowledge skills that would be through the roof. Which in terms of time and dedication should just as hard as initiating. Takes a wee bit of study to get a doctorate, you know. Cuts in the time available for other studies.

Still, initiation 1-2 would be common if only to access metaplanes.

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?

0-2

Given the amount of BP you start with, you could argue the typical starting PC is almost already a veteran (Minus the wisdom, very often wink.gif )

More than 2 you are Prime runner material, very much amongst the elite of your profession.

---

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?

Depends. They might not even have any if rather young. Don't they have a very high magic rating, initiate or not? Don't have my book. So anyway, I'd go with age. They are very smart, but seems unlikely to seek much instruction as young adults.

They could have 0! And if they are young, they are unlikely to learn grade as fast as the other races IMO. Only the fact that theya re all basically genius allows them to figure much of this stuff on their own.

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?


completely irrelevant unless you positively need to know who would win between Ehran and Harlequin in a magic duel.
Lebo77
QUOTE (Charon)
Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate. It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs. It's kind of like Karate. Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs. It seems obvious to mey that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


Huh? A mage with a Magic of 1 could go out Inititate. What do you mean by "Talent"?
Charon
QUOTE (Lebo77 @ Aug 11 2006, 12:33 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 11 2006, 12:26 PM)
Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate.  It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs.   It's kind of like Karate.  Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs.  It seems obvious to mey that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


Huh? A mage with a Magic of 1 could go out Inititate. What do you mean by "Talent"?

Magic 1? When did I say magic 1?

I meant that I believe many mage wouldn't even be able to initite once. Not PC, obviously. They're the protagonist of our story! But the rest opf the mass.

Not everyone is able to becoem a balck belt when trained in a rigorous karate school. It's just not in them
Lebo77
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Lebo77 @ Aug 11 2006, 12:33 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 11 2006, 12:26 PM)
Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate.  It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs.  It's kind of like Karate.  Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs.  It seems obvious to mey that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


Huh? A mage with a Magic of 1 could go out Inititate. What do you mean by "Talent"?

Magic 1? When did I say magic 1?

I meant that I believe many mage wouldn't even be able to initite once.

I was just useing a magic of 1 as an example of an extremely untalented mage. I am asking for you to define "talent" for this discussion.
MK Ultra
With my own champaign in limbo, I have not yet thought about how this will be in SR4, but here is how I handled it in SR3. I guess Iīm somewhere between mfb & knasser.

What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?
veteran normaly 0, elite 0-3. but Individuals could be much better. I.e. as per CD, all Aztech Blood Mages would be 8+.

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?
A bachelor in thaumaturgy would have 0, a master might have 1 or even 2, but often 0 as well, a Dr. would have at least 1, a university professor would normaly have 2+. This was for regular research magicians, hot-shots might have much more, but usually no more then 6 or 7 - 8 or 9 for the real nova-stars (like 1 per AAA nova-stars, though obviously Aztech as well as MCT and Wuxing would have more then one).

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?
One player managed to accumulate 6 grades IIRC, but he played the pc very long and didnīt do much else then initiating. Normaly a veteran runner would still be 0-3. The Uber-Legends of the shadows had 5-7 in my game.

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?
I usually gave them (Essence) grades as a default. Not that I ever had to use them, in game, it was just a fluff benchmark.

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?
12+ but usually they wouldnīt have any hard stats, this would again be just a fluff benchmark.

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?
Never had one in my games, never thought much about their grade, probably would have been 8+.
Charon
QUOTE
was just useing a magic of 1 as an example of an extremely untalented mage. I am asking for you to define "talent" for this discussion.


I said no PC are concernedby this observation.

But the rest of the world...

Consider sprinting. Consider the ability to sprint 100m in less than 11 second to be initiate 1. And in less than 10s to be initate 5.

Take everyone on this board, train them rigorously. Dope them even.

Not everyone will be able to reach 11s (initiate 1). And probably no one will be able to reach 10s (initiate 5) unless we have some people with some serious natural aptitude for sprinting in the crowd.

Hard work (spending karma and training time in SR) ain't everything. Some people just ain't able to achieve certain things, no matter how much their parents told them otherwise when they were kids.

Once again, I don't consider PCs to be subject to this. But my NPCs? Yes. So initiates aren't that common, and initiate above 5, very, very rare.

Talent = Natural aptitude. Some people just don't have it. They can become very proficient and even great teacher with perfect technical undertsanding of the subject. They just ain't that stellar at it.
Slithery D
QUOTE (Lebo77)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 11 2006, 12:26 PM)
Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate.  It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs.  It's kind of like Karate.  Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs.  It seems obvious to mey that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


Huh? A mage with a Magic of 1 could go out Inititate. What do you mean by "Talent"?

He's using "talent" as a non-game mechanic limit on what the average person can do, even if the rules would allow them. For example - given enough Karma, any schlub shadow runner who starts with bad stats can eventually become an expert at something he sucked at when he was an adult. But you can't do that in real life. So he's hand waiving that most magicians don't have some mental quality necessary to initiate, no matter how much Karma they get, just as most people don't have the necessary ability to (insert here), no matter how hard they practice.

I don't actually buy that, myself.
James McMurray
The mages with the ability to hit higher initiate grades would be the ones more likely to be in places the runners will go (high security areas, research labs, etc.), so they might seem more common than they are.

The yardstick I use is "what fits this NPC?" If they're a bit part it doesn't really matter. If they're someone the team is to come into contact with they'll be advanced as far as they need to be to provide the appropriate level of challenge and/or help.
Lebo77
QUOTE (Slithery D)

He's using "talent" as a non-game mechanic limit on what the average person can do, even if the rules would allow them. For example - given enough Karma, any schlub shadow runner who starts with bad stats can eventually become an expert at something he sucked at when he was an adult. But you can't do that in real life. So he's hand waiving that most magicians don't have some mental quality necessary to initiate, no matter how much Karma they get, just as most people don't have the necessary ability to (insert here), no matter how hard they practice.

I don't actually buy that, myself.

Ahh. Now I understand. I don't buy it either.
MK Ultra
Iīm with charon on this. Most of my wage-mages in SR3 would be good for whatever they did, but would never initiate.
Charon
*shrug*

We ain't all superstars (except in our own mind).

With some hard work almost anybody can become very proficient in any given field. But reach the next level? Dominate your peers?

Nah. It takes real talent (and then still more hard work).

QUOTE
The mages with the ability to hit higher initiate grades would be the ones more likely to be in places the runners will go (high security areas, research labs, etc.), so they might seem more common than they are.


True, but there is a shortage of very talentd people VS all the place you would wish them to be.

Just look at who is administering your countries and companies, wherever you may be living or working wink.gif

So in the case of a security mage, It's very unlikely to see initiation if he's on sentinel duty even if he's been doing this for 10 years. The guy who comes in with the FRT team to answer an emergency is another story.
James McMurray
Hence my second paragraph. If it helps the game to have the main security mage be an initiate he will be one to some extent. If the game is better served by having only the HTR team iniate, then only they'll have done it.

In all walks of life you have people that have more or less ability than their position would indicate. Thus it's possible to fit almost any level of training into almost any role, as long as it's done sparingly. That wage mage might be working his job just so he can put food on the table, while his hobby is finding higher metaplanes and learning everything he can about metamagics. Likewise that HTR mage might be completely worthless, only in his position because he's the security chief's idiot brother and the hope is that he'll respond to a call and get splattered.
SL James
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 11 2006, 10:33 AM)
Basically, the only characters in the game that will exceed 3 are likely to be big individual players.

Wow. I'd hate to play a mage or an adept in your games.
mfb
QUOTE (Charon)
With some hard work almost anybody can become very proficient in any given field. But reach the next level? Dominate your peers?

well, look at the question. he's asking about veteran types, not everyday wagemages.
Geekkake
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 11 2006, 10:33 AM)
Basically, the only characters in the game that will exceed 3 are likely to be big individual players.

I'd hate to play a mage or an adept in your games. I mean, hell, adepts would get kicked right in the nuts without getting Initiation over time.

I believe the discussion centered around NPCs, not PCs. Consequently, your mage or adept wouldn't necessarily be affected by that scale.
Charon
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 11 2006, 01:03 PM)
QUOTE (Charon)
With some hard work almost anybody can become very proficient in any given field. But reach the next level? Dominate your peers?

well, look at the question. he's asking about veteran types, not everyday wagemages.

Veteran doesn't mean you're that good. It's just means you have been at it for a long time. You are experienced.

It's not rare to see veterans dominated by young talented upstart, in any field.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
Hence my second paragraph. If it helps the game to have the main security mage be an initiate he will be one to some extent. If the game is better served by having only the HTR team iniate, then only they'll have done it.


Your second paragraph implied that the guards would be custom built to match the PC.

I don't quite work that way. Any given target has the same level of security throughout the campaig, no matter the skill level of the PCs. It's just that if they become better, they'll be assigned tougher target. But if for some unforessen reasons, as part of their plans, they make a move against a lesser target, the security is what it should be for that particular target. Easy for them. And if for some reason they attack a tougher target than they were inititally assigned to do because of some stupid plan, they will get mowed down. But since the mission is custome built for their level, this is usally not an issue.

Bottom line, typically, security mage aren't initiate in my campaign. If they were to become initiate, they'd be transfered to somemore proactive elite unit. And only in really important facilities would the occasional initiate be put there as a sentinel. The kind of thing that if the hacker lift the dossier of the security mage, he'll excalim : 'Why the hell is this guy on sentinel duty?!' and discover there is more than meets the eye.

Because if I give tough security to a facility, there's always a reason for it, it's not just so the encounter will be challenging.

Note that tailoring encounters to PC is exactly what I do when I DM D&D. It's just a matter of taste for any given genre.
James McMurray
QUOTE
Your second paragraph implied that the guards would be custom built to match the PC.

I don't quite work that way.


Me neither. Like you, I tailor the job to the PCs, not the opposition. There will be times though that someone they encounter is more or less powerful then they'd expect.

QUOTE
If they were to become initiate, they'd be transfered to somemore proactive elite unit.


What if they're initiates but are unsuited for that type of duty for another reason? Do they just disappear?
Slithery D
The scarce initiate crowd doesn't seem to understand how trivial a grade or two of initiation is in SR4. Whoopie, you have an extra die (or two) to roll for spell resistance or drain. You can go on metaplanar quests, but the really abusive stuff like free spells without karma is gone. So are pure dice rollers that make quests easy for the stuff that's left.

It's not a big deal that makes your opponents into supermen, it doesn't cost that much karma, and there are good social reasons why to take it. I'd treat it like certain officer branches in the Army do going to Ranger School and earning a tab. In some areas you're expected to have it and looked down on if you don't; in plenty of others its not necessary but lots of people want it to prove something.

Or treat it like alpha/beta cyber/bio. The classy people who aren't street trash or bottom of the market have it.
mfb
QUOTE (Charon)
It's not rare to see veterans dominated by young talented upstart, in any field.

it's quite rare, actually. veterans get to be veterans, especially in dangerous lines of work, because they're good at what they do. for mages, that means being good at magery, which generally means initiation.
Slithery D
Of course, the flip side to the "neglible game effects" is that it doesn't really matter if you give most sec mages a grade of initiation when they're just there for combat. Where it matters is for role playing if you have to do background on a mage for blackmail or whatever purposes. Most of these guys will be in an iniatory group, even if it's just hobbiests playing around and drinking beer away from the wife once a month.
Charon
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 11 2006, 01:28 PM)
QUOTE (Charon)
It's not rare to see veterans dominated by young talented upstart, in any field.

it's quite rare, actually. veterans get to be veterans, especially in dangerous lines of work, because they're good at what they do. for mages, that means being good at magery, which generally means initiation.

I agree for a runner, certainly (As long as their age doesn't start to slow them down). But just security mage? You can probably get lucky and go for over ten years without needing to kill someone. And research mage?

I mean nowadays most cops can go through their career without drawing their weapons. SR is more violent but still...

And as I pointed out, even if initiation always help a mage, not all would manage it.

Like, every beat cop would benefit from being able to sprint 100 meter in 11 seconds in order to catch a running suspect. That's a situation that occur a lot more in a cops career than a shootout. But hey, few can run that fast and even if they trained hard most never would be able to. But somehow most manage even if they sprint their 100m in more than 12s because thankfully most suspects aren't trained sprinter either.
James McMurray
Sometimes catching a running suspect is the last thing you want to do. smile.gif
Charon
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Sometimes catching a running suspect is the last thing you want to do. smile.gif

Well, yeah. Then you want to run away from him. You would still benefit from sprinting really fast! wink.gif
mfb
QUOTE (Charon)
I agree for a runner, certainly (As long as their age doesn't start to slow them down). But just security mage? You can probably get lucky and go for over ten years without needing to kill someone. And research mage?

...

this is SR. mages are rare. runs on corporate facilities happen very, very frequently. security mages are not going to be wasted at low-importance sites that no one is likely to hit; they'll be at the prime targets, the high-end research centers, the places that are the biggest, juiciest targets.

as for research mages, i can't imagine it'd be very easy to do research without power. one, because doing the research likely involves astral quests, which are more difficult at lower grades; two, because they're researching ways to gain magical power, and they'd have to be fools to not apply what they've learned to themselves--even if it's only to prove a theory.
Slithery D
The vast majority of Grade 1 initiates will take Quickening, Grade 2 will take Centering, which don't need to be justified by increasing rarely used combat ability and provide an incentive for everyone to take them. Do you know know much money a magician should be able to make quickening low level Manipulation and Illusion spells? The civilian and personal applications make it worth it. And what self respecting mage doesn't want to chant his spells in Latin and have it actually do something?
Slithery D
QUOTE (mfb)
as for research mages, i can't imagine it'd be very easy to do research without power. one, because doing the research likely involves astral quests, which are more difficult at lower grades; two, because they're researching ways to gain magical power, and they'd have to be fools to not apply what they've learned to themselves--even if it's only to prove a theory.

This is correct except for higher grades making metplanar quests easier. There are no longer any mechanics to make this true. Of course, having Masking might help you roleplay your way through a challenge, and a few dice of Shielding help in a fight, but it has nothing to do with your grade per se.
Charon
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 11 2006, 01:46 PM)
this is SR. mages are rare.

Rare, but not that rare.

What are the latest figure for magically active in SR? 1%?

That's still 40 000 people or so in Seattle. But most likely, a place like Seattle would attract more mage just like it attracts more runners.

I mean, there are enough mage in all strata of the population for the occasional odd bunch to form a street gang!
A street gang!

So I don't shy from sticking a mage in sentinel duties if the target is worth enough to justify the expense. But such mage are virtually never initiate.

Concerning research mage, I did rank them at typically 1-2.

---

Yeah, and concerning the frequency of raiding secure corp compound... not all that much. Not even in the modules published.

It's a big deal in my campaign when we get around a typical Mission Impossible kind of run against tough secure facilities. A multi-session event.
James McMurray
Did Street Magic give a more recent figure than that 1%?
Conskill
What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?
One to three.

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?
One to six.

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?
One to six.

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?
Six to twelve, depending on age.

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?
Deus ex machina grade.

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?
See above.

---

Major magical NPCs, such as the head of a major initiatory order or an Awakened antagonist, will also be six to twelve.

As you can see above, my major milestones are at three, six, and twelve.

Zero to Three
Any Awakened, regardless of personality or ambition, can hit this. A hotshot magician will initiate before he's done with undergraduate work, a prodigy will do it in their teens. Normal folk will probably initiate in their twenties or thirties.

For most characters in this category, they gain Initiatory ranks in a rush. When they finally settle down and do it, they get a taste for self-improvement and slam into it for months or even a few years, but eventually peter out. A normal sec-guard Mage might go from rank zero to three in the span of a few years, then simply never advance again. Self-improvement becomes too hard and not worth it.

Three to Six
If you get this high, you're in the game for keeps. These people are driven to do what they're doing and have made the initiatory process a part of their lives. There's going to need to be some "enlightened" aspect in an NPC to get them here: an incredible will, a knack for compassion and introspection, burning zeal or consuming hatred; some quality that suggests the character rises (or falls) toward something transcendent.

Characters around here will gain their ranks slowly and steadily over the years, instead of the rush and burn out cycle of their lessers.

Six to Twelve
These are people that live and breathe magic. Magic isn't just a strong part of their lives, it is their lives. People that make it this far either have supreme will, the enlightenment of a saint, or (most likely) a obsession so consuming that they aren't really thinking like a normal Metahuman anymore. Your existential heroes and wise men on the mountain tops are here, but so are a legion of people who have lost any sense of balance in their lives.
Halabis
I can not possibly immagine a Mage graduating college and not having at lest 1 grade of initiation. At least not at a masters level, probably even at the undergraduate. There are college initiatory groups! Being able to do metaplanar quests is practicaly required for magic research.

On another note, mages arent realy that rare at all. 1% is a lot of people. There are about as many mages as natural blonds. I just dont see how people can say they are rare.
2bit
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Did Street Magic give a more recent figure than that 1%?

It reiterated the one percent statistic under "Magic in Daily Life", pg 8.
stevebugge
QUOTE (2bit)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 11 2006, 01:59 PM)
Did Street Magic give a more recent figure than that 1%?

It reiterated the one percent statistic under "Magic in Daily Life", pg 8.

It further suggested that only a fraction of the awakened were trained to use their abilities.
Conskill
The numbers and the flavor text have never agreed about the rarity of magicians. 1% is a reasonable number, and for the number of Magician security goons that run around you might even bump it up to 2%. Yet the fiction of SR acts like the number is closer to 0.01%.

I'd suggest going with the stated number and not the fiction. No matter how rare and special Magicians want to feel, PCs encounter too goddamn many of them for the average Joe not to pass a few on the highway every day.
Slithery D
QUOTE (2bit)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 11 2006, 01:59 PM)
Did Street Magic give a more recent figure than that 1%?

It reiterated the one percent statistic under "Magic in Daily Life", pg 8.

Yeah, but now that 1% includes weaker magicians than were available in SR3, when everyone necessarily had Magic 6 and usually had Will 5-6. Now some putz who otherwise would have been a janitor can awaken with Magic 3 and Will 2.

These days I consider anyone with 5's in relevant attributes a near certainty to initiate. If they haven't done it yet, they're thinking about it before anything else.
Slithery D
QUOTE (Conskill)
The numbers and the flavor text have never agreed about the rarity of magicians. 1% is a reasonable number, and for the number of Magician security goons that run around you might even bump it up to 2%. Yet the fiction of SR acts like the number is closer to 0.01%.

I'd suggest going with the stated number and not the fiction. No matter how rare and special Magicians want to feel, PCs encounter too goddamn many of them for the average Joe not to pass a few on the highway every day.

Treat them like lawyers. Lost of people with the piece of paper, fewer doing legal work, fewer still doing productive legal work.

smile.gif
Conskill
QUOTE (Halabis)
I can not possibly immagine a Mage graduating college and not having at lest 1 grade of initiation. At least not at a masters level, probably even at the undergraduate. There are college initiatory groups! Being able to do metaplanar quests is practicaly required for magic research.

Normal people don't become graduate students and do magical research.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the vast majority of MIT&T's undergraduate population Initiate before they get their degrees, because being a MIT&T student is the definition of being a hot-shot magician or magical prodigy.

I would be less inclined to believe someone getting an Assoicate's of Science in Thaumaturgy at Willmington Community College is going to have the same probability of being an Initiate before the end.
2bit
In my game:

What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?
0-2. This character probably has people that answer to him and he may be relevent beyond the scope of the current encounter. His initiate grade would depend on how important raw magic power is to him, as opposed to say, management skills or other aspects of his job.

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?
2-12. Corporate research groups come in several varieties, not all of which focus on initiation. Initiate grades would probably depend on what type of research the mage is involved in; metamagic research and metaplanar research would see the highest grades imo, but many more projects would be product-oriented and a magician would only be an initiate if they were a high ranking member of such a group.

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?
Veteran would be 2, like a veteran security adept/mage who was really into his magic.

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?
no idea, ive only used non-great dragons in my campaigns maybe twice, ever.

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?
Deus ex machina grade.

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?
See above.
knasser
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Aug 11 2006, 11:47 AM)

Not realistic - one grade of initiation isn't very expensive in Karma terms. 18 points of Karma to push Magic from 5 to 6, or 11 points of Karma for a grade of group initiation, the social/professional benefits of membership, and a metamagical technique.


Well Charon made a very good point which was that just because the rules allow for everyone to reach an extraordinary potential, it doesn't mean that everyone can. I hadn't considered that when I replied, but I now realise it is something I had at the back of my mind.

But to address your reply specifically, I have to consider a little what karma actually represents. Clearly it is a bit of experience and a bit of applied effort. So a shadowrunning mage spending karma to initiate might be reasonable. But a wage mage probably has a family, hobbies and countless other things that are going to drain on his time and energy. He's not going to be putting all that effort to train himself up as an initiate. Why should he? He's a successful mage earning what I imagine is a very comfortable salary.

Just to put it into perspective, that 18 points of karma you mentioned is sufficent to learn three new foreign languages for example. I'm sure lots of us here would love to be an obnoxious polyglot but how many of us have actually sat down and done it? It's equivalent effort and study to becoming a black belt in karate and more effort than raising your strength from 2 to 4! Why aren't we all doing these things even though I'm sure they appeal to some of us? Because we have other uses for that karma (time and effort). A wage mage doesn't need to do all of this. He's got it made.

I think it's natural that some karma go to the things we do professionally, but I'd expect it to build up in the skills like Sorcery or Conjuring where you can spend it in considerably smaller payments. And bear in mind that the wage mage has plenty of other demands on his karma. I will expect the wage mage's bosses to be expecting him to bind them long term spirits or sustain as many spells as they can get out of him with foci. You can be sure they'll get their money's worth.

There will be some that truly care for their craft and somehow dredge up the time and energy to go through initiations, whether at the expense of promotions or friends and familiy or whatever. And that brings me back to what I said in the first place - these are the ones that are less likely to become or remain a wage mage because they clearly have different priorities. I consider that the larger the amount of karma you pay for something, the more significant an event or effort it is. Initiation is therefore clearly a major trial in your life. Look at the ordeals - a thesis, removal of an eye or an extreme fast. It's big stuff and I keep it for the big players. And it suits my games.

QUOTE (Halabis)
I can not possibly immagine a Mage graduating college and not having at lest 1 grade of initiation.


If the average magic attribute for an adult is three and the typical skill level is three also, then I see a very large amount of room for people to develop before they look at initiation. Initiation doesn't seem to me like a typical improvement of skills. It seems to me like a radical shift in the nature of your abilities.
knasser
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 11 2006, 10:33 AM)
Basically, the only characters in the game that will exceed 3 are likely to be big individual players.

Wow. I'd hate to play a mage or an adept in your games.


Well there is the extraordinary elegant plotting, the vivid descriptions and atmosphere, not to mention exceptional quality of munchies on hand. wink.gif

But I wasn't referring to players as in "players". I was referring to player in the sense of Movers and Shakers, the Howling Coyotes (okay he might get grade 10) and the Harlequins. They're not working for a corp or a sprawling organisation, they're actors in their own right. It was a poor choice of word for a RPG forum.
Adept_Damo
QUOTE (James McMurray)
The mages with the ability to hit higher initiate grades would be the ones more likely to be in places the runners will go (high security areas, research labs, etc.), so they might seem more common than they are.

The yardstick I use is "what fits this NPC?" If they're a bit part it doesn't really matter. If they're someone the team is to come into contact with they'll be advanced as far as they need to be to provide the appropriate level of challenge and/or help.

I kind of disagree. I don't really see the most powerful mages being some lackey for a suit. You'd have to pay them a hell of a lot to take crap from someone they considered their lesser. I just think that high level initiate mages would have better things to do with their time than working, much less as a security guard somewhere.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Aug 11 2006, 01:25 PM)
The scarce initiate crowd doesn't seem to understand how trivial a grade or two of initiation is in SR4.

2 grades of initiation cost about as much as going from skill 4 to 6. Still skill 4 is mentioned as veteran and 6 is mentioned as world class, and not everybody is running arround with skill 6 in his profession.

Please stop and try to connect karma costs with distribution of a value in the actual SR4 world.

My personal distribution:

Awakened: 1%
divided into:
Knack people 0.2%
Adepts: 0.5%
Aspected Magicians: 0.2%
Full Magicians: 0.1%

Magic distribution of awakened (of population in per million):
1 - 40% (4100) (mostly knack people)
2 - 25% (2500)
3 - 15% (1500)
4 - 10% (1000)
5 - 5% (500)
6 - 2% (200)
7 - 1.% (100)
8 - 0.3% (30)
9+ 0.05% (5)

Initiate grade ditribution of awakened (of population per million):
0 - 65% (6500)
1 - 20% (2000)
2 - 10% (1000)
3 - 4% (400)
4 - 1% (100)
5+ - 0.1 % (10)
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