Just to point out that it isn't. It is used as the basis for calculating NPC power (SR4 pg. 277) and as a mechanic for interaction with free spirits (SM pg. 107) and numerous other spirits that can actually drain karma. It has a representation in game as an actual spiritual energy and life force. It even exists in NPC to NPC interactions e.g. Mantid Spirits (SM, pg. 151).

Aside from all that, we were just using it as a useful guage for how much effort and time it takes to achieve something.

Not to say you can't play your game that way if you wish, but your non-initiated magician is already in a position of being able to earn a highly paid job with whoever he chooses to work for. He is already has status far above most of society. That doesn't equate with first year university student, to my mind.

EDIT: Additionally, the average mage is going to have Magic of 3 and comparable skills in Summoning and Conjuring. In SR4 terms, 3 is a professional standard. While I'm not saying initiation isn't a viable progression, there is plenty of scope for people to develop their more normal magical abilities for a long time before that. Given that Initiation is more like a enormous effort and change (13 karma in one go) than a steady increase of skills, I would think it would be a less likely path to follow for most magicians.

That is so the PC can interact with them.

277 is to balance NPC Prime Runner to your own PC.

I'm guessing SM has a mechanic to sacrifice karma.

But this is all about how a PC relating to NPCs.

The NPC don't get 1 karma for good roleplaying. Or 1 karma for pushing the story forward.

Gaining karma is a purely PC based mechanic. That's not how NPC do it.

Earning power has nothing to do with the argument.

A guy who didn't even complete his degree in anything computer related could easily earn more money than a guy with a doctorate in sociology.

If anything, this support my view ; it's so easy for a mage to make a confortable living off even modest skills that the motivation to make the necessary sacrifice to reach higher wouldn't be present in many mages.

What other than your preconception indicates this? As I've just pointed out, karma has mechanics based on it that apply to NPCs in the game (feeding free spirits, energy drain powers, mantid spirits gaining karma from consuming other spirits).

Besides all this as I just stated, the reason for bringing karma into this in the first place is that it is a good guage for showing how much effort is involved in developing something. Gaining an initiation grade is comparable effort to a Str 2 person heading for Str 4. Or learning three foreign languages to a competent level from scratch. Or getting a black belt in karate from no previous combat experience. Whether or not an NPC gains / spends karma is not really relevant. The karma costs illustrate what initiation would ask of someone.

I was illustrating that basic magic skills already appear to be considerably in advance of the skills of an undergraduate in a different field. I was saying that I didn't see any solid basis for your analogy.

Hmmm. You seem to be agreeing with me:

It's not that I object to you agreeing with me. It's just that you seem to think your point is new.

You haven't made initiation rare; you've made high Magic people rare. That I can sort of agree with. (I'd shift the distribution of types of gift, however: there's no reason to require that Adepts are that much common than regular mages. Aspected Mages to Full Mages at a 2:1...meh.)

You've got 3560 initates per million people. But you've only got 3335 people with a Magic of 3 or greater! You're more into widespread initation than anyone else on this thread; I would only assume people with a Magic of 5 or so start seriously thinking about initiation.

I believe the original poster forgot "in Hollywood." In movies and books we frequently get shown up and coming stars bettering their superiors left and right because people (that is, young people) like to see that sort of thing. Truth is though, if someone has been at their job for 20 years and you've been at it for 2 you're almost assuredly going to look like a newborn babe in comparison.

Something that furthers the confusion is when people that that college is somehow an indicator of job performance. College (at least for computer science) is more of a "look at my tenacity." When you hit the real world things that they didn't have time to teach you in those four years start to rear their ugly heads on day 1.

I wish it was that common. I was a shooting star in college. In one of my programming classes I'd have gotten straight 100s on every test and assignment except the professor gave 2 points for signing your name on each test so I only got a 98 on one of them. It took about a month actual working in the industry to realize how little I knew.

Oh I think it is quite frequent for young upstarts to exceed people who have been in their job for twenty years. People get stuck in their ways or mindsets. I think the best field of comparison to magic in the real world is science and it was said best by Max Planck (Initiated Phys Adept, Grade 8 ):

The same applies to new technology. The young and the bright pick it up quickly while the old ones complain about txting destroying the English language.

Sure there are plenty of older people who stay on top of things and remain innovative to their dying day. But I'd bet you any money that these were once those exact same upstarts. It's a quality that some people have and most don't. (And I think it's called enthusiasm).

Why? Standard attribute values in SR4 are 3!
And you get meta magic by initiation.

Yes. I have been (a) twice. I haven't been in any career long enough to experience (b) though I dare say it could happen.

No I'm not discounting it. What I'm doing is dividing people into two general categories. Obviously it's more of a gradient than a distinction, but what you broadly find is that you get upstart types and the "mundanes" for want of a better word. Now the mundanes get started on their track and proceed to develop at a gradual pace, acquiring knowledge and experience. It should be noted however, that they often plateau at some point and sometimes quite early. Then you get the upstart types who learn rapidly and even more significantly bring in new points of view or an awareness of new ways of doing things. Sometimes the upstarts mellow and become mundanish. Often though, they remain upstarts and become ever better at what they do, remaining in touch with new developments.

My point is that the mundanes are usually in the majority (except in very new fields such as computer programming in the late seventies - mid eighties). An upstart will quite frequently outshine, these making up for their inexperience with novel ideas and awareness of new developments and ways of thinking. They wont outshine the older upstarts who are like them, but have more experience. But the two will often get along very well.

I guess what makes an upstart is a certain curiousity and neophilia. It doesn't take much of this to outshine a jobsworth. You can say that experience counts for a lot, and it does. But when you compare these two broad categories of people with each other, it counts for a great deal less. I have seen this happen quite a bit and, as I noted, it is particularly common in the field of science which I feel is the best real world analogy to Shadowrun magic.

With an average magic of 3 and comparable skills and attributes, I say the mundane magicians (sorry) have plenty of room to plod their way up in experience in knowledge. I leave initiation to the upstarts.

Your game may vary, but I have always viewed initiation as something more than just a bit more power. Binding Oaths? Sacrifices of eyes or hands? Fasts so severe they can permanently reduce your physical strength? Initiation is a powerful thing and in no way a routine part of your career path.

Rules wise definitely (and SM gives some more cushy ordeal options anyway). Fluff-wise, I guess the equivalent to initiating without an ordeal is to have just naturally reached a greater level of enlightenment. That also fits with the increased karma - you've been spending much of your time and energy on thinking and spiritual development for quite a while and something finally clicked.

My take on it anyway. Your easy going response, by the way, has made me realise that I was getting quite dogmatic in my initiation is enlightenment stance. It's perfectly acceptable if other people see initiation as a more routine thing. I just like my fluff.

Compare the benefits of adding a point of Magic to a point of initiation for the average guy just trying to make a living from magic. A point of Magic makes you better at everything. A point of Initiation gives you one point to help resist drain, or resist spells, or...take some non-grade based ability that is highly specialized and not of much use to most people, like Masking, Flexible Signature, whatever.

More generally to several posts on this subject, I suggest that Magic attributes should not follow the normal distribution like regular attributes do. Why be a lazy mage when the rewards are so much greater for being a good one? Why waste time and effort on other skills, hobbies, etc. when putting all of your effort into Magic is much more worthwhile? The benefits of specialization and comparative advantage demand that the general population of magicians has higher Magic than the general population has Strength.

All of the "same karma as to increase Strength from 2 to 4" stuff is also off the mark. If you think of yourself as an athlete, you put in the work in the gym to get that strength or more. You practice your skills. Maybe you seek an edge through doping. If the universe has tapped you on the shoulder and designated you as a magician, and the world is going to see you, admire you, and fear you as such, you have a stronger than usual incentive to dedicate your life to maximizing your ability at magic at the expense of a more rounded life.

Yes, there will be hobbiests, the irredeemably lazy, and those who hate magic who just stay with a Magic attribute of 2-4. Most, however, are going to stop working out as much, stop playing raquetball, stop reading a dozen books/novels in whatever subject they used to like, and focus their lives and talents on magic. GMs who have a good graps on human motivation and the obvious in game reality of Shadowrun have all the justification necessary to make the "average" mage who isn't 18 years old one with a Magic of 4-5 and not uncommonly a grade or two of initiation.

The flaw is in the desicription of difference between skill 5 and skill 6, because (drumroll)...there's hardly any difference in game mechanic terms to justify it!

Universal initiation for people of average Magic, especially when you're using 3 as that average, strikes me as dumb no matter how you look at the karma/skill/in game motivation question.

I don't agree in full, it just seems to me that the "real" world gains Karma at an extremely slow pace compared to a shadowrunner. That also is the difference in 5 to 6, the guy with a 6 is world class because he actually has the 12 Karma more than the guy with 5 (he may not be as worldclass quality-wise as he should be, but he certainly is that rare). This is also a reason why initiation may be considered as rare.

There's also the issue of motivation. If you have reached 5 in a skill or attribute, then you are exceptionally talented or gifted. Unless Bob the amateur runner is really going to be competing at an international level then he's probably not going to burn the large chunk of karma needed to raise his skill level from 5 to 6. He's probably content to be the best runner in the county and to keep very fit doing it. Similar principle applies to most skills and attributes.

Shadowrunners also have different motivations and lifestyles to normal people. When you're risking your life with frequency, then you polish those skills very highly, just like the shadowrunning gun-bunny is a far far better shot than the security guard doing his rounds.

Runners focus their efforts on these things. Mr. Wage Mage probably has a family and life to enjoy. I would rule that children use the same rules as Ally Spirits more or less - they keep using up your karma as they develop and the worse you treat them, the sooner they're going to go "free" and burn your house down.

*shrug*

I was just disputing your refutal of my University student VS master degree comparison.

I'm the first who said in this thread that he believed some people just didn't have what it takes to ever initiate, remember? I would also add that many would have the talent but not the motivation. You need both.

Much like most University student will never get a master degree for lack of ability and/or motivation.

Okay, well we seem to agree on the issue of initiation being something for the exceptional people, rather than the normal progression of the career mage. I was confused because I had taken your statement that an undergraduate degree was the RL equivalent to a non-initiate to mean that you thought most would then progress on to initiation as their career developed.

I see what you're saying now. Apologies for the misunderstanding.