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Slithery D
Ok, forget bitching, rules lawyering, and questions about confusion - what about SM do you especially like for flavor, rules clarity, or power gaming reasons?

I'm going to go with the Qabbalistic tradition and some of its implications for flavor and power gaming reasons. First, I hate voodoo. I'm not a big fan of Wicca, either, so the Hedge Witch tradition didn't appeal to me, either. But Qabbala is close enough to hermeticism in outlook and Logic for drain that if I have to take a possessory tradition, I'm willing to take a look at it. Elemental spirits, task spirits instead of spirits of man, hell yeah, it's the magical engineer tradition.

Task spirits are awesome, with an optional power possibility of a physical or technical skill. Need a mechanic, demolitions expert, doctor, cybersurgery implant specialist? Summon your best task spirit into yourself or a convenient friend/enemy and set it to work. Want Olympian running, jumping, climbing, swimming, or gymnastic abilities? Put a task spirit in yourself and get not only Force skill but attribute boosts equal to force as well (did we decide this is beyond the cap?).

I wasn't that thrilled at first by the idea of an ally stuck by inhabitation in the body of a homoculus that is going to be extremely awkward to have follow you around or an innocuous pet that is still a little weird and doesn't have the flexibility of astral scouting and movement. (Interestingly, the ally rules don't actually explicitly require that you take inhabitation instead of materialization if you're a possessory tradition. But then even if they did, you could easily toss your binding dice the right way to ensure a bad merge and a true form who has to materialize by default.) But after seeing the great physical stat boosts for golems, I started to rethink - just make sure your ally has the mask spell and to casual inspection he's passable. And if you get a good merge (2+ net hits on the inhabitation test) you get Aura Masking, too! Your ally can't go astral, but he's an ungodly melee machine that will waste most dedicated physads. (EDIT: Well, if he can hit them...)

Let's look at the Force 4 plasteel homonculus. You only need 10k nuyen for materials (plus vessel prep costs), access to an industrial mechanics shop (the hard part), and a Force threshold Industrial Mechanics extended test (not the hard part, because you can make task spirits do the work for you!). Your inhabitation threshold is three, you're rolling 4x2 plus binding dice (push it to 6 for 14 total dice) on the test, so you've got at least a decent chance of getting that perfect merge with 5 hits and having Aura Masking underneath your mask spell.

The stats for this thing in melee combat are unreal. Strength and Body 12, Agility and Reaction 3, 8 points of Immunity to Normal Weapons plus 8/8 armor, and Natural Weapon 11P (AP 0) fists. Yes, just try to hurt it, even if you do get over the hardened armor value. Now add in whatever spirit powers you gave it, like energy aura. (Ok, ok, you probably can't hide that last under a mask spell or take it on the street.)

Ridiculously over powered? Sure, if you can get it past security. Cool? Hell, yeah, and who but the Qabbalist could justify that with his tradition? A Voodoo plasteel asskicker? C'mon, no way. He'll just have to settle for a ridiculously overpowered paranimal with good passive abilities, because good luck getting that perfect merge and retained skills/powers on an opposed test.)

My next post: best metamagic techniques.

(Edit: Repairing this thing, incidentally, would be a bitch and presumably require that same shop again. There is a new fix spell, but it can only effect something Force x hits in kilograms. This thing would be minimum 40kg, and you'd need a minimum 4 hits to fix one point of damage after you beat its object resistance. So get ready to cast a lot of Force 10 fix spells and resist DV 6, probably physical...)
mfb
QUOTE (Slithery D)
Task spirits are awesome, with an optional power possibility of a physical or technical skill. Need a mechanic, demolitions expert, doctor, cybersurgery implant specialist? Summon your best task spirit into yourself or a convenient friend/enemy and set it to work.

...oh god. i think i need to go sit down for a while.
Samaels Ghost
Quick! Get this man a Spirit Doc!
SL James
Who (or rather, what) do I conjure to become, "the goddamn Batman?"
Samaels Ghost
Just inhabit Batman with a Ally spirit.
....then dikote him
mfb
i think i may stop looking at these threads. i mean, i'm seriously trying to keep an open mind about the SR4 supplements. i was considering buying the Street Magic pdf. but goddamn.
LilithTaveril
Wow... The more I read, the more this sounds like a high-technology DnD.

So, when's the point they combine magic and science to create FTL drives?
JonathanC
I'm trying to hold out for the hard copy, since I prefer books. Plus, $25 for a PDF seems a bit much, just for my taste (I mean, you literally have to be around a computer to read the thing). On the other hand, it'll be another book to take up space on my shelf...hmmm.....
Slithery D
Hey, I said I was including powergaming uses.

I would of course actually limit them to nontechnological tech skills, if that makes any sense. Nothing with electronics. First aid, maybe armorer, locksmithing, low tech mechanical replacement, that kind of stuff. Sadly, while one should obviously follow the often stated "spirits don't understand electronics," the rule itself just says it can take an additional Physical or Technical skill as an optional power, full stop.

With reason this isn't broken. (Are huge running skills going to break your game? Oh, shit, it's Gymnastics Man!) But wait until you get to the new Absorption and see all the incentives to have your friend or ally spirit cast a force 5 low drain harmless illusion (or whatever) at you so you can aborb your defensive success and knock a lot of drain off your next spell. Much more efficient than Centering if you have a buddy to feed you energy. That, in my opinion, is broken and overpowered.
FrankTrollman
While a Task Spirit can in fact get any technical skill, it's still a spirit and can't even perceive matrix information. So while a hardware or demolitions skill would be cool, a Hacking skill would be pretty much useless.

In short, it works pretty much like the Ant Worker Spirit from SR3 did. You could give it any B/R skill, so you could have spirits putting cyberdecks together for you. You just couldn't get them to actually use those cyberdecks in the ways you wanted them to.

QUOTE
Who (or rather, what) do I conjure to become, "the goddamn Batman?"


You conjure almost any spirit. While it's tempting to conjure a Task Spirit and give it Infiltration as a bonus skill and then possess yourself with that, honestly you're just looking for the Concealment power. That's pretty common, and every spirit has Unarmed Combat. You wouldn't take Guardian, because we know Batman won't use guns and Guardian spirits can. We can also eliminate Fire spirits because Batman isn't surrounded by an energy cloud. And we can eliminate Air Spirits because Batman can't fly.

But yeah, you get possessed by a spirit that has Movement and Concealment, and Fear... sounds like Batman is a Beast Spirit. Perhaps a spirit of... The Bat? Awesome.

-Frank
SL James
I can't believe you actually answered that.
Slithery D
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
While a Task Spirit can in fact get any technical skill, it's still a spirit and can't even perceive matrix information. So while a hardware or demolitions skill would be cool, a Hacking skill would be pretty much useless.

In short, it works pretty much like the Ant Worker Spirit from SR3 did. You could give it any B/R skill, so you could have spirits putting cyberdecks together for you. You just couldn't get them to actually use those cyberdecks in the ways you wanted them to.

Eh, I don't actually like this that much. The Ant spirit, of course, wasn't available to NPCs, and the crazy Ant shamans had no incentive or ability to do something like that. I realize Task spirits are the epitome of workers/smiths, but really, what deep astral knowledge of aeronautical repair is floating around in the aether for them to pick up? I could see it turning some screws, but running a diagnostic program? Well, whatever.

With the exception of demolitions, none of this is really game breaking stuff. You're hardly going to buy a cybersurgery clinic just because you can make your own doctor. (The same for repairs; I need parts!) And big whoop, I can give a buddy a few points in First aid instead of cast a heal spell. Still, the idea and flavor of Voodoo zombie servitors doing (skilled) slave labor is nice.
SL James
Well, using spirits for EOD work definitely cuts back on accidental death or dismemberment.
Slithery D
Yeah, but they hardly need skill to defuse it, just send in a fire elemental... I guess it's a step up from the Iranians sending children into minefields, though. Send your enemies, instead.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Slithery D)
Yeah, but they hardly need skill to defuse it, just send in a fire elemental... I guess it's a step up from the Iranians sending children into minefields, though. Send your enemies, instead.

You might not want to blow everything up - there might be collateral and important structures nearby.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
But yeah, you get possessed by a spirit that has Movement and Concealment, and Fear... sounds like Batman is a Beast Spirit. Perhaps a spirit of... The Bat? Awesome.

..Animal Control. eek.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
While a Task Spirit can in fact get any technical skill, it's still a spirit and can't even perceive matrix information. So while a hardware or demolitions skill would be cool, a Hacking skill would be pretty much useless.

Says who? Sure, a spirit can't use full VR, that would be absurd. However, there is nothing stopping a materialized or sprit from reading a monitor and typing. Since spirits are dual natured when materialized or possessing something, they should be able to shift to physical perception as a simple action. If it had eyes and hands it could even uses contacts and AR gloves.

Don't be affraid to give your smartlink sunglasses to your guardian Guardian spirit, folks.


One wouldn't summon an spirits to become The Batman. While Batman knows a more than a little bit about magic and can even do a little bit himself, he's really limited to low-level dispelling and banishment or the activation or preprepared magical items.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
One wouldn't summon an spirits to become The Batman. While Batman knows a more than a little bit about magic and can even do a little bit himself, he's really limited to low-level dispelling and banishment or the activation or preprepared magical items.

Didn't you learn anything from the Technocracy?
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." grinbig.gif
Adarael
QUOTE
A Voodoo plasteel asskicker? C'mon, no way. He'll just have to settle for a ridiculously overpowered paranimal with good passive abilities, because good luck getting that perfect merge and retained skills/powers on an opposed test.)


Tell that to the Houngan who has Shango as his patron Loa, and wants a copper and steel guardian to follow him around and hurl lightning bolts at things.

Or the Mamaloa who follows Ogoun Feraille, the Warrior of Iron and Steel, who wants a neighborhood guardian spirit to protect her congregation. Ogoun's the loa of battle, weaponry, and beat-ass after all. And the Feraille aspect never says no to steel.

Or hell, Erzulie Ge-Rouge, put by a Petro Houngan into a Real Doll-type toy so as to get revenge on the SO that jilted him. Ge-Rouge will do anything to get revenge for a jealous lover. Anything.

Not all of voodoo is aspected how you seem to think it is.

Edit: Jeez. Now I really wanna use that last one as a hook for an adventure.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 11 2006, 11:32 AM)
One wouldn't summon an spirits to become The Batman. While Batman knows a more than a little bit about magic and can even do a little bit himself, he's really limited to low-level dispelling and banishment or the activation or preprepared magical items.

Didn't you learn anything from the Technocracy?
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." grinbig.gif

Magic can bypass Superman's immunities. Technology can't unless it takes advantage of his alergy to kryptonite. For this reason, Batman's technology can't be magic. If it were he'd be able to go toe-to-toe with the Man of Steel and win. As it is, he can't win without cheating.

Now, I have a sudden urge to make Superman as a mystic adept with channeling and a severe alergy to kryptonite brand bicycle locks. nyahnyah.gif
Serbitar
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

Didn't you learn anything from the Technocracy?
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." grinbig.gif

Hehe, what book was the original quote from? Foundation Trilogy? I forgot.
knasser
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 11 2006, 04:35 AM)

Didn't you learn anything from the Technocracy?
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." grinbig.gif

Hehe, what book was the original quote from? Foundation Trilogy? I forgot.

Arthur C. Clarke - City of Diaspar (from memory).

Unless he used it somewhere else first.
Dread Polack
QUOTE (Slithery D)
Eh, I don't actually like this that much. The Ant spirit, of course, wasn't available to NPCs, and the crazy Ant shamans had no incentive or ability to do something like that. I realize Task spirits are the epitome of workers/smiths, but really, what deep astral knowledge of aeronautical repair is floating around in the aether for them to pick up? I could see it turning some screws, but running a diagnostic program? Well, whatever.

I'm not sure what deep astral knowledge of turning screws is floating around in the aether either. I would assume the skills possesed by task spirits (having not read the book), doesn't come from their own experience using the skill, but the consciousness of humanity. If that's the case, they can possess any knowledge or skill possesed my us.

Of course, that's my wholly unscientific theory.

Dread Polack
James McMurray
How dare you espouse a nonscientific theory about ideas floating around in the aether for spirits to grab, assimilate, and use?!?!? Jeeez, some people! wink.gif
Slithery D
F'ing shamans.
James McMurray
What benefits and drawbacj dioes f'ing give? Maybe my next shaman will follow that totem.
Samaels Ghost
Free Orgasm Spell Knack for F'ing Shamans
RunnerPaul
My pick for the best feature would be the "Friends in High Places" rule for metaplanar quests.
Dogsoup
That "suggested rule tweaks" page. I was impressed by it in the BBB, and continuing this feature was a very welcome surprise.
Slithery D
I started this off by praising the Qabbalist tradition. But I'm rather upset by the Chaos Mage, which is just a different flavor of Hermetic with a few spell category/spirit type links switched around. I happen to like those concordances more than the traditional hermetic alignment and think they make more magical "sense," but that's not enough. I want a hermetic-like tradition with some difference, like swapping spirits of man for Guidance, Guardian, or especially Task. Qabbalism does this for Task if you don't mind a possesory tradition (and unsightly travesties like Earth spirits assisting detection spells), and Hedge Witches and Wiccans do the same for Plant spirits for both possessory and materialization traditions, but I don't care for Plant spirits or that nature crap.

What to do. Reread SOTA 2064, actually. Qaballah and Black Magic were both one or two liners in the "Other Minor Classic Schools" paragraph and they made it into Street Magic; why not some of the more important or at least more interesting and notable ones?

I have in mind the two non-"other" minor schools, the Concordance Alchemique (which I'll rename Alchemists as a tradition) and the Pythagoreans.

Alchemists

Concept: A subschool of hermeticism, Alchemists focus on the magical forces underlying and imbuing the physical world and combine this mystic understanding with physics and chemistry to manipulate mana. Instead of spirits of man, they are the only non-fringe materialization tradition that calls on Task spirits, the magical world's engineers and workmen.

Combat: Fire
Detection: Air
Health: Earth
Illusion: Water
Manipulation: Task
Drain: Willpower + Logic

Pythagoreans

Concept: "Mathamagicians" who use high level math and symbolic philosophy, they use pure intellect divorced from cultural references or history to manipulate mana.

Combat: Fire
Detection: Air
Health: Earth
Illusion: Water
Manipulation: Guidance
Drain: Willpower + Logic

Obviously there's nothing particularly clever or earth shaking going on here except for the different flavor and swapping out of spirits of man. I've left the traditional hermetic spirit/spell correspondences alone, but Task spirits are 3/3 in covering Manipulation in the three published traditions, and if Earth/Health was good enough for Chaos mages, it's good enough for me. Someone with actual knowledge of Alchemy and any elemental/functional correspondences might want want to switch them, of course.

As for Guidance/Manipulation, I figure a tradition based on math would see pure ntellect/inspiration as the path to manipulating the world. But whatever. The elemental correspondences can probably just be done on common sense/tradition, because I don't think math is going to help predestine a "right" answer.

Intersting possibility: make one of these a possessory tradition? Alchemists would be the only Task spirit summoners who aren't possessory, but I think I can deal; have them manifest as clockwork elmentals or maybe a balance of the other four. The case for a possessory math-based tradition is stronger, I think - they might consider all of this physical manifestation business rather icky and just want their pure astral "formulas" to move physical matter rather than become an erstatz version themselves. On the other hand, manifestation as a sort of digital elemental haze, constantly shifting into new calculations and equations, would be pretty cool, too. Think the Cortana hologram in Halo, for those familiar with the game. I think I would probably go with possessory if I were to play it because I think Guidance spirits are a bit weaker (but cooler) than spirits of Man, and I'd like to give it an extra edge and differentiate it from the similar spirits of Christian Theurgy.

Any ideas on these? Other traditions they've thought of under Street Magic rules and would like to share?
Grinder
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Slithery D)
Task spirits are awesome, with an optional power possibility of a physical or technical skill. Need a mechanic, demolitions expert, doctor, cybersurgery implant specialist? Summon your best task spirit into yourself or a convenient friend/enemy and set it to work.

...oh god. i think i need to go sit down for a while.

What he said.

The idea of these spirits sounds too weird to me.
Synner
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Aug 14 2006, 05:03 AM)
What to do. Reread SOTA 2064, actually. Qaballah and Black Magic were both one or two liners in the "Other Minor Classic Schools" paragraph and they made it into Street Magic; why not some of the more important or at least more interesting and notable ones?

Note that the Other Minor Classic Schools included subvariants of Black Magic and Qabbalah which were actually shoehorned into being Hermetics under SR3 rules - similar to how Gardnerian Wicca and to a certain extent English Hermetic Druids were treated. These did not represent the totality of magicians following any of those traditions, but rather a subset.

An update on the sub-paradigms and Schools of Magic (this time not just for Hermetics) was one of the things left out of Street Magic for space.
Samaels Ghost
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 11 2006, 07:29 AM)
QUOTE (Slithery D)
Task spirits are awesome, with an optional power possibility of a physical or technical skill. Need a mechanic, demolitions expert, doctor, cybersurgery implant specialist? Summon your best task spirit into yourself or a convenient friend/enemy and set it to work.

...oh god. i think i need to go sit down for a while.

What he said.

The idea of these spirits sounds too weird to me.

Being possessed by the knowledge of the ancients/the spirits/the dead/god is weird? Unbalanced maybe, but I intend to try it out before I knock it. Endowment seems iffy for the same balance reasons, but you do have to invoke so i'm not worried.
Grinder
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
Being possessed by the knowledge of the ancients/the spirits/the dead/god is weird?

Well, that sounds much better. I haven't read Street Magic (waiting for the hardcopy to arrive at germany), but the description in the first post of this thread was not so clear and sounded to me like "a spirit for every task so mundanes will be useless".
Witness
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 11 2006, 08:00 AM)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 11 2006, 04:35 AM)

Didn't you learn anything from the Technocracy?
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." grinbig.gif

Hehe, what book was the original quote from? Foundation Trilogy? I forgot.

Arthur C. Clarke - City of Diaspar (from memory).

Unless he used it somewhere else first.

Actually IIRC Clarke wrote that 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.' It was Terry Pratchett who turned it around.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Synner)
An update on the sub-paradigms and Schools of Magic (this time not just for Hermetics) was one of the things left out of Street Magic for space.

Any chance of getting it (and the rules for Lost adepts) up on the website?
Synner
Let's just say we're working on it...
Slithery D
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 14 2006, 10:32 AM)
Being possessed by the knowledge of the ancients/the spirits/the dead/god is weird?

Well, that sounds much better. I haven't read Street Magic (waiting for the hardcopy to arrive at germany), but the description in the first post of this thread was not so clear and sounded to me like "a spirit for every task so mundanes will be useless".

Well, they do have access to every Technical and Physical skill. For those purposes, a magician with Task spirit will never need to hire a mundane for those purposes.

They're hardly going to replace mundanes with the same skills, though. Are you going to trust a Hedge Witch with her little pointed hat when she tells you that oddly glowing, weirdly jerking wicker man figure with the scalpel is just as good a doctor as you're going to find at the hospital? Is a voodoo practiioner really going to set up shop as the best mechanic in town? Qabbalists will have Task golems manufacturing things, but it's going to be grunt work on enchanting processes and manufacture of more golems, not pursuing a career as the hottest home remodeler in town.

Grinder
That's the way I see it too, but I doubt that many players will think so too. And I didn't enjoy the new adept powers back in SOTA which allowed them to enhance technical and social skills via magic - and I don't like the idea that spirits are able to do the same (in another way) either. I think magic evolved too fast, while mundanes stayed at the same level. There had been many many new adept powers appearing in late SR3 sourcebooks that made mundanes weaker than their awakened coutnerpart. And now Street Magic does the same and enhances spirits in a way that makes mundanes useless. Granted, we have to wait for Augmentations, before making a final call, but I'm afraid that it will bring along only the old cyberware and bioware to SR4 and doesn't bring much new cool 'ware. 'ware that gives a mundane awakened power (like astral sight) or better defence against spells.

knasser
QUOTE (Witness)

Actually IIRC Clarke wrote that 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.' It was Terry Pratchett who turned it around.


Ah - true. That'll teach me for trying to read a whole sentence at once.

I used to read Pratchett when he was funny and I do recall that line.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 14 2006, 06:40 AM)
Let's just say we're working on it...

On a FAQ? Good idea (though, a little late, why not gather questions before publishing a book?).
Slithery D
QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 14 2006, 12:53 PM)
And now Street Magic does the same and enhances spirits in a way that makes mundanes useless.

I don't follow. While a Task spirit could, in theory, write a computer program if you found a primitive enough interface like a monitor and keyboard (probably not compatible with modern developer tools), he'd have to finish it by dusk or dawn. Or have a ridiculous number of bound services. That can't be cost effective! And every Task sprit tradition is also a possession tradition. If they want a mechanic or cybersurgeon they've got to find someone to possess or have a homonculus handy for the purpose and the spirit isn't available for astral patrolling or whatever.

By the way, do you happen to have a machine shop or cyber clinic handy? One that the owner is willing to lend you at a price that saves you money off hiring his services directly? Is your rigger friend really that pissed off that he's going to have more Karma to spend on his gunnery, driving, and hacking skills because the party Qabbalist is taking over repair duties? Hell no!

And to have Task spirits you've got to give something up. Qabbalists and Hege Witches lose spirits of man. Is a flexible skill spot really better than Innate Spell? I doubt most magicians would think so. Voodoo practitioners have both, but the only elemental spirit they've got is Water. Need air cover, an Energy Aura tank, or whatever Earth spirits are good for? Too bad.

As I've said before, I think the only Technical skill where a Task spirit can replace a mundane and the mundane won't be happy not to have that skill is Demolition. Everything else is (I would rule) effectively unusable because the tools are unusable by a spirit (or players have better hot sim controllable tools) or its grunt work. Do you want to be a quartermaster issuing spare parts or an infrantryman shooting people and blowing shit up? And even if that Force 6 spirit is better at Demolitions than most players would care to be, it takes some drain and the possiblity of a wasted service on a failed possession. And what if you need to wire four separate points? I say four services.

All magic is just a tool, with different costs and benefits than mundane tools.
hobgoblin
SR history shows that a lack of skill in explosives have yet to stop people from trying...
NeoJudas
QUOTE (LilithTaveril)
Wow... The more I read, the more this sounds like a high-technology DnD.

So, when's the point they combine magic and science to create FTL drives?

that's over in our games Lilith... rotate.gif back to reading the forum here.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Slithery D)

I'm going to go with the Qabbalistic tradition and some of its implications for flavor and power gaming reasons. First, I hate voodoo. I'm not a big fan of Wicca, either, so the Hedge Witch tradition didn't appeal to me, either. But Qabbala is close enough to hermeticism in outlook and Logic for drain that if I have to take a possessory tradition, I'm willing to take a look at it. Elemental spirits, task spirits instead of spirits of man, hell yeah, it's the magical engineer tradition.

You want to make a hermetic like "possessory" tradition? you Make one up, and call it whatever you want to call it. You Go like this, I want it to be like the hermetic tradition and say I want these five spirits, tie to such and such type of magic and i want them to posses me. Then you are good to go, you have new tradition that is no less metagaming and frankly is way less offensive to at least me.
NeoJudas
Okay, now that I've read this and caught up .... what I like so far about Street Magic? I enjoy seeing that the group here (HHH) has not been that far off from the paradigm the developers/writers are using with the exception of power restrictions (we break more than they do). I am greatly intrigued by the new Ally and Possession class spirits in general, but still find the idea of a metamagic purely to allow a person to conjure Ally spirits to frivilous and a waste.

I really do appreciate and enjoy the shifts in paradigm for the magical types directly. Hey Slithery ... do you have as much free time as I think you do? Already come up with the Pythagoreans was kinda interesting to read. The new paradigms do make me chuckle though because using some of them as paths into obtaining/inclusion of new spiritual types in a game seemed a bit much (shrug).

I like having the spell design system back, but again I'm left wondering what the hell is going on with this "one month, three month" interval crap? We've adopted a new consideration here where the PC's simply do not know how much downtown they get between runs/events and must contend with what they have. But the idea of spell design times now being as time consuming as an alchemical circulation are misplaced at best. I understand if ones intent were to limit new material into a game, but I mean really folks ... wow.

I personally did not like the Enchanting and Arcana as singular skills (the latter allowing for whole categories of spellcraft as specializations) ... so I know we've already (re)modified them back into Skill Groups to allow for more expansion later on down the road here.

The Spirit rules are very nicely included, if in some instances overpowered or improperly balanced (don't get started here). I like the metaplanar stuff too, but know I'm going to be rereading that section another time or three just to make sure I didn't miss something obvious.

Forming a group and the group benefits being explained a bit more than in older books was nice. VERY nice to know the group benefit for instruction/initiation only works if you have three or more members present to help. I really like that balance. Have to admit, it was odd to see "Karma" stricture go away but oh well.

Overall, even with the expectant mismatches to either baseline SR or the House Games here, I appreciate the book and find that buying the PDF was well worth the cost. May change later ... but I'll get back by then I'm sure.
Slithery D
QUOTE (NeoJudas)
I am greatly intrigued by the new Ally and Possession class spirits in general, but still find the idea of a metamagic purely to allow a person to conjure Ally spirits to frivilous and a waste.

I really do appreciate and enjoy the shifts in paradigm for the magical types directly.  Hey Slithery ... do you have as much free time as I think you do? 

Yes, I do, but you're wrong about ally metamagic. It's better and cheaper than in SR3!

P: "Hey, GM, ever since I started this game as a buck magician with Magic 5, I've been saving my karma. I think I'd like to spend it on an ally now rather than any attribute/skill increases or a grade of intiation. What's the karma cost of an ally?"

GM: "Well, the karma cost is X. But in addition, you'll need to take a grade of initation after all so you can create gain the ability to create one at all. That'll cost you an additional 13 points of karma, less if you take an ordeal or use a group to initiate."

P: "Wow, that sucks."

GM: "Not really. Under SR3 rules you'd have to sacrifice a point of Magic, which would then cost you 15 karma to buy back up to 5. And it would be worse if you wanted to make an ally later in your career when your Magic is higher. So you'll save at least two karma points, more if you use a group or ordeal, and you'll be able to visit the metaplanes! Of course, if you were already an initiate the only benefit of taking another grade to make an ally would be an increase in your existing metamagical abilities. Oh, and the karma savings we already talked about."

P: "Wow! Thanks, Street Magic developers, you're the greatest!"

smile.gif
Moon-Hawk
Bear in mind, though, that under SR3 rules you did NOT sacrifice a point of magic if you were creating your Ally as an ordeal. That's why literally 100% of the ally spirits I saw created in any SR3 games that I played/GMed were created as an initiation ordeal.
I could be way off here, but wasn't that the rule?
mfb
that is, indeed, the rule in MitS.
Moon-Hawk
(edit: Thank you, mfb)
So considering that, at least in my games, that rule was used 100% of the time and no one felt like it was all that restrictive, the whole "sacrifice a point of magic" thing in SR3 might as well not have existed.
That definitely swings the comparison between the two editions pretty darn far in the other direction, at least IMO.
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