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Synner
Technomancers are here to stay and will continue to be an integral part of the SR4 setting. FanPro has no intention of removing them or reducing their role in the setting. Furthermore, technomancers have been well-recieved by most SR fans, far more so than otaku.

Several people have cited very different problems with technomancers - some (like mfb) simply don't like their "radio brains", others don't like the fact that they're too "magical", others don't like that they can do stuff regular hackers can't, some don't like them for the same reason they didn't like otaku (human brains shouldn't be able to process raw simsense, period).

Some of these problems will be addressed when more is revealed about technomancers, others won't, but I'm pretty sure more people will come round once more is revealed about them and their abilities.

There are very specific and practical reasons why Emergence is coming out before Unwired, reasons which will be self-evident once the book is available. But let's just say that the ramifications of Emergence reach far beyond technomancers and will potentially touch all aspects of the Matrix and everyone (pretty much everybody) who uses it in 2070.
Grinder
edit: @SL James post:

Thank you for enlightenig me biggrin.gif

Seriously, if one feels that TMs need more background info or can only be played with "Unwired", one should talk with the other gamers. Can't be that diffcult to find an agreement. smile.gif
SL James
Yes. It'll be interesting to see what happens when everyone playing is a rules lawyer.
knasser
QUOTE (Synner)

There are very specific and practical reasons why Emergence is coming out before Unwired, reasons which will be self-evident once the book is available. But let's just say that the ramifications of Emergence reach far beyond technomancers and will potentially touch all aspects of the Matrix and everyone (pretty much everybody) who uses it in 2070.


*sigh* Then I can see a great deal of work in my future. I don't wish to deny anyone else the opportunity to have these characters in their games if they want. But I've got the impression that there are quite a lot of people that dislike the idea of technomancers and for that reason I thought there might be some possibility that GanPro could bear this in mind and take a marginally more lego-like approach to them in the game. As I metioned there is a very successful example of this in the new Eberron setting with Psionics.

Just for information my reasons for disliking Technomancers are none of the ones that you listed. My dislike stems from the following:

I started playing with SR1 and reading the original Secrets of Power trilogy. One of the themes was Magic vs. Technology and that stuck with me. I have always liked the frisson between the two.

My second reason is a little less personal and that is that I feel magic already has too great a role in Shadowrun. An integral part of the setting, yes. But to the extent that non-magical characters and PCs are second class citizens (both in terms of power and interest), I feel it is too much. And now we find that the division is one-sidedly broken and magic is taking over the machine world too. Hacking and the matrix was a something that mundanes had to themselves. Although Samurai were somewhat overshadowed by ever more powerful magicians in terms of damage dealing, quickened increase attributes, armour etc. and adepts could rival them, there were still riggers and hackers et al. Technomancer fluff changes this, making non-magical characters truly second best. It's that balance that is thrown out for me and why I don't have technomancers in the game.

As I said, I don't want to deny others the chance to play these characters, and I understand that some of their designers may think they're very cool. But it's a lot of work for me to start unintegrating all this stuff from my game as it is for anyone else that doesn't want this. I don't want to see the matrix become something akin to metaplanes, or something that magicians can have a "true" understanding of or connection to, whilst the hacker is some unaware dabbler. As we have so little information on the new matrix or how to run it, I'm concerned that the groundwork for it is being laid in Technomancer terms rather than Hacker terms. The ordering of the books suggests this and now you have too.

And just to emphasize my point above, I'm not so much talking about rules as I am about fluff. Balance issues are a concern, but it's the one-sided encroachment of magic into technology's domain that bothers me.
Grinder
QUOTE (SL James)
Yes. It'll be interesting to see what happens when everyone playing is a rules lawyer.

I'll never have a group like this.

Hopefully.
cx2
If I can use an RL example.

A newspaper here in the UK decided to print pictures of convicted paedophiles that have served their sentence and been released, to warn people that live nearby. One of the pictures showed a man wearing a chain/medallion type object.

Immediately on the release a man wearing a similar chain was attacked with utterly no provocation. He was not connected to any paedophilic activity. The tabloid in question caught hell for it.

All they need is one image of a supposed TM with a birthmark, tattoo, chain or necklace, ring, bracelet, or just about anything else and someone could get attacked. It doesn't even need to be an actual TM.

Another more recent one...

A couple of young Asian men were on a plane that had stopped at an intermediary airport before heading in to the UK. Some passangers demanded they be kicked off because they looked "a bit dodgy", literally. The pilot gave in and did so, whereupon the police looked into it and found them not to be suicide bombers, which was what the passengers suspected them of being.

The people on the plane did not suggest searching them. Kicking them off would be no different than searching them for risk, since if they were bombers they would be just as able to trigger anything they had.

There are also many reasons which could fit the vague description the passengers gave. Claustrophobia, fear of flying, illness or indigestion, being physically uncomfortable in their seats, boredom... the list is endless. The passengers did not consider it for a second.

The witch hunt syndrome is still with us.

And who said the SR world was PC? With groups such as Humanis and the like it's quite the opposite.
lorechaser
1. Wraith rocked. It was just nearly impossible to play.

2. It doesn't matter than a Technomancer is no different from a guy with an internal commlink. Don't you understand? HE DOESN'T HAVE A COMMLINK!!!! THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!!! That's just how people are. New and different scares them. Uncontrollable things scare them. My daughter can't wear blue shoelaces to school. Because blue == gangs. There has been on gang activity in her school. There has been nothing to indicate it's a problem. But blue==gang. No blue shoelaces.

3. If you think non-magical characters are second best, you aren't installing enough Cyber. wink.gif Now the issue of the non-magical, non-cyber person being 2nd best is valid, but that's sort of like saying that the guy who brought a knife to a gunfight is second best....

4. I point you to this story if you think witch hunts are gone. Dude was denied access to his flight until he removed a shirt with Arabic words on it. Words.

Synner
QUOTE (knasser)
I started playing with SR1 and reading the original Secrets of Power trilogy. One of the themes was Magic vs. Technology and that stuck with me. I have always liked the frisson between the two.

My second reason is a little less personal and that is that I feel magic already has too great a role in Shadowrun. An integral part of the setting, yes. But to the extent that non-magical characters and PCs are second class citizens (both in terms of power and interest), I feel it is too much. And now we find that the division is one-sidedly broken and magic is taking over the machine world too.

I will repeat what has been said elsewhere on several ocassions. Technomancers are not Awakened or magci, nor do they use magic in any fashion at least not in the sense magic is referred to in Shadowrun. In fact, their abilities preclude (and will continue to exclude) the use of Magic.

People are reading a lot into the fact that there are numerous parallels in mechanics, when neither the mechanics nor the fluff (what there is of it) supports the fact that Resonance is Magic - in fact quite the opposite.
SL James
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 28 2006, 02:33 PM)
Yes. It'll be interesting to see what happens when everyone playing is a rules lawyer.

I'll never have a group like this.

Hopefully.

It's worked fine for me so far with SR3.
WhiskeyMac
I think the reason some people think TMs are magic is because of the streamlined mechanics approach. TM "powers" are constantly referred back to Magic as a way of doing things. Sprites = Spirits but in the matrix is one example. Fluff is what keeps these elements separate. The references are just there to make sure you understand how the mechanics work. It's up to the GM to separate these different archetypes through the use of a descriptive environment and story.

I kinda like the idea of TMs but the rules are a little weird for me. I never really got the hang of Otaku so that might be why. Anyway, just my 2 nuyen.gif

Oh yeah, witch hunts have been prevalent throughout SR history. Remember Surge? That little bastard child everyone loves to forget smile.gif As long as someone can come up with a good demonization of something, mass hysteria will take over. Even diets don't get away from witch hunts. Atkins is deadly for you, South Beach isn't healthy at all, blah blah blah.
Union Jane
Everybody thinks that technomancers are magical. Some silly sod simply gave them the wrong name. Put "mancer" on the end, and we all assume you're telling us about a new type of magician. We all read fantasy and sci-fi books, you see. We know what a "mancer" is.

Personally, we do not use technomancers in our home campaign. We have otaku, we have deckers (what the frag's a "hacker"?), and technomancers just seem rather, well, munchy.

Cheers,

UJ
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
I think the reason some people think TMs are magic is because of the streamlined mechanics approach.

It's more like most people are not able to wrap their head around the fact that TMs use magic that is no magic.
Like nano-weapons that defeat the laws of physics.

Let's just say that everything is alright and there is no such thing as the Technocracy. grinbig.gif
SL James
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
I think the reason some people think TMs are magic is because of the streamlined mechanics approach.

Eh. When I say "Magic" it is shorthand for "And then a miracle happens."

As for the rules... Well, there is quite a bit about that I can go into going back to the rules that were written for Otaku by the people who wrote RA:S and Brainscan and later became things like Submersion/Fading. But I'd rather not hash that shit out because it's not important. Convenience is an adequate reason.
knasser
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
I think the reason some people think TMs are magic is because of the streamlined mechanics approach.


Yeah - the similarity of rules. Also the way they interface directly with computers and microchips just by thinking loudly.

Well, if it isn't magic, this is going to have to be one Hell of an explanation. I await with interest.
mfb
i understand that TMs are not intended to be magical. but radio brains? gimme a break. it's magic.
Dissonance
I'm trying to figure out which answer I would accept more. Them being magical, or them being some kind of genetic anomality in which their brains are infected with some sort of symbiotic digital parasite something akin to Snow Crash, in which their skin...

I can stop writing right now. Man. While I haven't really used either, yet? I personally preferred the otaku, more because the idea of a kid who hasn't gotten special hairs yet on a shadowrunner team because he's useful?

Creepy Kid Syndrome wins out over Creepy Regular People syndrome. And I imagine that Technomancers smell even worse, as they don't even have to go out to the store to get software.
2bit
I disliked otaku as PC's due to the age factor. Child PC's are generally a bad idea. Having a kid in the party, the story always ends up someplace really stupid or really horrible. huzzah for the TM!

QUOTE (Dissonance)
I'm trying to figure out which answer I would accept more. Them being magical, or them being some kind of genetic anomality in which their brains are infected with some sort of symbiotic digital parasite something akin to Snow Crash, in which their skin...

Sooo, like theyve got an infection acting like some sort of software based ASIST? cyber.gif
Dissonance
They're secretly aliens. From the non-planet Pluto.
Arab_One
The mystery of how TM's work is one of the attractions for me. It adds a level of "what can the human brain really do?". As far as them denying Hackers a place, I have found this to not be the case. In a straight up hack on the fly, the TM can bring in his sprites for a ridiculous number of dice, but try and make a probing hack, or an extended data search, and the hackers starts to come out on top.

hackers can have every program at 4-5 at character creation, but a TM will only have the Complex forms they require. I find them to be much more specialized within the matrix, and almost useless outside the matrix (unlike our hacker who had enough money left over for some wired reflexes and skill wires).

My only problem with my TM character is that he get to do about three different shades of nothing, unless there is Matrix involved.
Grinder
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 28 2006, 07:37 AM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 28 2006, 02:33 PM)
Yes. It'll be interesting to see what happens when everyone playing is a rules lawyer.

I'll never have a group like this.

Hopefully.

It's worked fine for me so far with SR3.

YMMV, of course biggrin.gif

Are all TMs childs? Don't think so. Otakus, yes, but TMs?
SL James
QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 28 2006, 03:55 PM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 28 2006, 06:13 PM)
QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 28 2006, 07:37 AM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 28 2006, 02:33 PM)
Yes. It'll be interesting to see what happens when everyone playing is a rules lawyer.

I'll never have a group like this.

Hopefully.

It's worked fine for me so far with SR3.

YMMV, of course biggrin.gif

On a similar note, I can now say from personal experience that combat in SR4 is neither simpler, nor less time-consuming, than combat in SR3. I did find the placement of Defense Modifiers to be nothing but inconvenient, btw.

But, yeah. Everyone I play with is a rules lawyer. It's one of the more interesting artifacts of only playing online in a collaborative fiction setting/system.
WorkOver
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Then there is a very small amount of people who are personally offended by SR4 and really like to get into long arguments on the web and they post here on the SR4 forum about how much they don't like SR4.

naaah. most of us are pretty much done doing that. we still jump in with specific gripes, but even those don't have much rancor in 'em anymore.

there's a minority of SR4 players who apparently can't stand the idea of someone not liking their system, though. they get pretty uppity, occasionally; the rest seem content to let us curmudgeons take our whacks and then settle back in our rockers. some of them even recognize when one of us curmudgeons goes out of our way to mock ourselves. none have shown up here, yet, though.

to return to the topic, was anything put out about Emergence that someone could post here?

I am in the distinct minority (majority) that find your constant psychobabble midly retarded, but majorly annoying.

You don't like it, we get it. You need to move on, this 12 year old PAY ATTENTION TO ME bullshit is tiresome.

Especially since we can't just skip threads you start since you infect plenty of threads, hijacking them, like this one.
SL James
Well, I don't see mfb, or myself, dredging up two-week old posts to bitch about.

As for Emergence:
QUOTE (Synner)
There are very specific and practical reasons why Emergence is coming out before Unwired, reasons which will be self-evident once the book is available. But let's just say that the ramifications of Emergence reach far beyond technomancers and will potentially touch all aspects of the Matrix and everyone (pretty much everybody) who uses it in 2070.

hoo... Wow. That's um... interesting.
Valentinew
QUOTE (WorkOver)
... hijacking them, like this one.

Ummmm, I started this particular thread, mostly to rant about not getting into the FanPro seminar I wanted to see.

I've found the turns this discussion has taken fascinating, especially as I am currently playing a TM. And, no, I don't mind the curmudgeons. Everybody's entitled to their own opinions. What I do mind are when it degenerates to personal pot-shots.

So, hijack away, my friends! I'm having fun!
SL James
We're not that bad. We make take your cargo and your license for, uh... safekeeping (yeah... that's it). But we also left $100 in your wallet and the boss knows better than to ride your ass about losing the truck.
Grinder
QUOTE (SL James)
On a similar note, I can now say from personal experience that combat in SR4 is neither simpler, nor less time-consuming, than combat in SR3. I did find the placement of Defense Modifiers to be nothing but inconvenient, btw.

But, yeah. Everyone I play with is a rules lawyer. It's one of the more interesting artifacts of only playing online in a collaborative fiction setting/system.

Combat flows not faster in our games, but we gratned that to the fact that we have to learn the various modifiers of the dice pool.


It's interesting that all your online gaming buddies are rules lawyer, when on the other hand you have to trust them when they're rolling the dices (or the GM if he does it for you).
Critias
QUOTE (Grinder)
It's interesting that all your online gaming buddies are rules lawyer, when on the other hand you have to trust them when they're rolling the dices (or the GM if he does it for you).

...?

We've got an on-line die roller. It's not like we toss a bunch of d6's in real life (or claim to) and then post the results (or claim to). You punch in your die pool, punch in your TN, and a random number generator does all the hard work.
Grinder
Ah ok, that's different from what I thought smile.gif
SL James
Yep. That's what makes SL better than... anywhere else.
James McMurray
A dice roller makes it better than anywhere else? I haven't checked SL out, but RPOL.net has a dice roller and tons more. The site is dedicaed solely towards running games, and it works great because of that.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (SL James)
That's what makes SL better than... anywhere else.

It may be a nice DB system, but the Java Index and Chat are... less than perfect.
But then again, it works... kinda.
mfb
yup. sl's got some scrolling issues, stemming from the fact that Java decided backwards compatibility was for suckers when they updated. i see two things SL has that RPOL lacks: the ability to post under different names, and a location-oriented tree structure. eg, you've got a folder for Seattle which contains a folder for each district, which contains pages for various locations (and folders for bigger locations, which in turn contain their own pages). from a technical standpoint, SL's way sweeter than anything else i've seen, even counting the problems with scrolling.

so, how 'bout that FanPro?
SL James
Making multiple names is helpful when you have 10, 20, 40 characters.
James McMurray
RPOL has unlimited names per player per game (including the GM). I just made a test character with 300 characters in the name and it had no problems.

The locations stuff isn't there, but I've never missed it. Groups covers that pretty wll, at least as much as I've needed it. Not to say I wouldn't use it if it were there of course. smile.gif
mfb
ah, didn't see the multiple-names feature.

the location-oriented tree is important for creating a persistent game world. if you're just doing private one-off games... well, i kinda feel sorry for you, 'cause you're missing out, but that's neither here nor there. you don't really need location-oriented trees for one-off games, at any rate.
James McMurray
You can have as many threads and PM, visible or invisible, per game as you want, which could cover locations. There are quite a few RPOL campaigns that stretch across several games. In any case though, if it were something important enough for me to have a folder for it I'd probably keep it somewhere that I was the controller of, like my own personal webspace. I'm just a control freak like that though. smile.gif

Can you see how the tree works through a demo or would I need to log on and create a game? If it's as cool as it sounds I'll petition jase (the RPOL code guru) to add something similar.
mfb
well, if you run windows, right-click the start button and select 'explore all users'. it basically works like the folders view, albeit with a cooler color scheme. instead of showing the contents in another pane, it shows them in another window.

but it's not like there's a fee for using SL.
James McMurray
Cool. I'm not looking to switch game tools any time soon, but wouldn't mind seeing the one I use get upgraded. How tightly married to SR is SL?
mfb
not at all. there are three 'sides' to the site: one for SR, one for WoD, and one that is geared towards d20 but can be used for just about any game. it doesn't have a d54 roll for Deadlands initiative, though. not yet...
Critias
And the only "marriage" that's there is just on account of how the die rollers are set up for each sub-section (d6's with TNs, d10's with TNs, dWhatevers for totals, etc). A few of us have even recently taken the plunge into SR4 (shh, don't tell anyone), right there on SL where everyone can see it.
James McMurray
Ah, then I definitely won't be switching. RPOL has pretty much every combination of die roller systems you could ever need, at least until a game comes out that it totally new in its methods of handling probabilities and for some reason can't be covered by a generic roller.
mfb
ooh! one other thing that i haven't seen on my brief forays into RPOL: on SL< you get to prettify your pages and posts and such, like so. it's a little thing, but it gives me an excuse to stretch my webmaker skizzles.
James McMurray
There's no background picture options, but it does have pretty much every UBB code and the ability to build tables. I just tried to make an account so I can check it out but the server is down. That's one good thing about RPOL, you can go almost anywhere and look at almost anything without being logged in. The only things you can't see are the ones the GMs have hidden.
Critias
QUOTE (James McMurray)
I just tried to make an account so I can check it out but the server is down.

SL, you mean?

'Cause me an' MFB are chillin' in chat right now. So I doubt the server's down.
mfb
yeah, SL takes some attention. 3 windows, 4 if you're in chat. i just tested account creation, seems to work okay. make sure you allow pop-ups on the site.
lorechaser
Server's down for me, too, on login.

So, okay, I want speculations on why Unwired isn't coming out first.

Another Matrix crash, caused by the TMs?

James McMurray
Still getting a server down error on account creation. I'll try again in a few hours.

One thing RPoL doesn't have is chat. It's strictly a play-by-post site. That works for me because I don't have free slots in my schedule to set aside 4+ hours for gaming that isn't face to face. I can definitely see where it would get missed though.
mfb
maybe all the TMs catch on fire, in Emergence? they'd still be a part of the game--every person on the planet would be constantly inhaling particles of TM! plus, SR4 would be even more like WoD!

haha, sorry, i couldn't resist.
Critias
QUOTE
Still getting a server down error on account creation. I'll try again in a few hours.

We had a new guy on there with us, dunno if he was a DSer or not, but it seemed to work for him (plus MFB's test account). Only thing I can think of that'll sometimes give a server down error (aside from the server being down) is occasionally it'll pop up the error message if you're hasty on the login typing. Did you give it a sec once the login java popped up, and let the news-flash on the left hand side start typing a little? It's a weird little thing that doesn't even go wrong every time -- but from time to time, if you log in before that message starts, it'll get buggy on ya.

QUOTE
One thing RPoL doesn't have is chat. It's strictly a play-by-post site. That works for me because I don't have free slots in my schedule to set aside 4+ hours for gaming that isn't face to face. I can definitely see where it would get missed though.

For the most part, general chat's just for hangin' out (and prodding people to post, I dunno how many times I've typed "ding" to let someone know I was done on a thread and someone else could post), but it is possible to create private game rooms (as part of a folder otherwise full of scenario/location pages), and even to roll dice in chats if you want.

SL James and I ran a quick "let's throw some dice and see what happens in SR4" sort of pseudo-combat the other day, in fact, that was probably ten times faster since we used chat for it than it would've been otherwise.
James McMurray
It must just not like me. Either that or a minute and a half isn't long enough to let the applet load. smile.gif

I'm not a big fan of applets to begin with. They rarely add much that can't be gained by easier and cheaper (in terms of resources) routes and tend to be flaky. I tried the applet free side of the site and got a 404 when it tried to submit my account info.
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