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JonathanC
The wording is a bit ambiguous as to whether walking around with sustained spells leaves a trail behind. I mean, technically, if you're sustaining a spell in an area, then you are creating a magical effect in that area.

On the other hand, you aren't casting it in that area. I think this is something that could use clarification.
NightHaunter
My justification for yes.

Combat spells can waste just about everything.

With little comparative risk or trace ability.
Slithery D
QUOTE (JonathanC)
The wording is a bit ambiguous as to whether walking around with sustained spells leaves a trail behind. I mean, technically, if you're sustaining a spell in an area, then you are creating a magical effect in that area.

On the other hand, you aren't casting it in that area. I think this is something that could use clarification.

The only mobile area of effect spells I can think of offhand are Detection. Even if you cast it on yourself and don't move, surely an extended range doesn't leave a huge cloud of signature all over the place! (Ewww.) Signatures attach to what you cast a spell "on." While sometimes that will be a (stationary) area, more often it's a specific person/target.
James McMurray
Nighthaunter: Guns can also waste just about everything with little comparative risk or tracability. And it's a heck of a lot easier for an investigative team to find and track down an astral signature then a bullet.
Slithery D
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 7 2006, 11:25 AM)
And it's a heck of a lot easier for an investigative team to find and track down an astral signature then a bullet.

I just don't get this. What's easy about it? Signatures do not provide astral links for tracking like sustained spells, foci, ward, and spirits do. If you kill someone with a manaball, all the signature does is leave your fingerprint. The investigators still have to know it's your fingerprint.

If you assume, as I do, that registered mages have to be assensed and have a description of their signature recorded, and further assume, as I do, that this description is helpful enough to allow one to look someone up in the database and at least narrow it down to a few subjects with similar signatures, you still don't have a problem with this for runners because they're SINless and not in the database! Yes, if a mage later assenses some of your magical activity and he knows about your prior criminal activity and associated signature, you've been ID'd as the perp. And this can certainly happen if you go around casting magic casually around magical observers who regularly read police and corporate security astral signature blotters. So don't do that.

Admittedly, this is all still "easier" than finding a gun and comparing it to a bullet, but it's really not that easy. The essential problem remains the same - if you're busted with the evidence, it can be used to convict you. But if you're busted already, specific evidence of conviction may not be your principle concern. So just don't get busted and don't flash your signature around in strange company where it might be recognized and draw unwanted attention or payback squads.
Zen Shooter01
I don't think magic is broken because statistics are statistics, but dice are chaos. One day, your sorceror is going to cast Invisibility and score three hits; the first guard to see him will roll a lucky four, and blow his head clean off.
James McMurray
I didn't say it was easy, just that it was easier. Someone who has seen your signature will recognize it when they see it again. That means if any who have your cig circulated amongst them happen to see it elsewhere (say on a passing person or spirit) they can follow that line back to you. If they see another one of your bullets they won't even realize it until the ballistics team has told them it's the same, and there's no astral chain between bullets and shooters like there is between spells and casters.
Xenefungus
Slightly off-topic: If and how can a mage transfer or describe an astral signature he has spotted to one of his mage-chummers? The only thing i could think of would be a consensual mindprobe which would need a lot of trust for sure. Other ways you can think of?
Of course I'm specially asking in reference to the cops who will have found a method to do it, i fear. ^^
Thanee
It might work with a spirit as 'messenger'. You can give spirits a mental image of a signature, and I suppose this works both ways. You just let the other mage take control of the spirit then.

Bye
Thanee
Lantzer
QUOTE (JonathanC)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 6 2006, 10:52 PM)
If you're talking about area spells you have to look at grenades and missiles, not bursts. Grenades are fairly comparable to the various ball spells. Exactly how well they compare depends on how you interpret the rules for dodging them.

Grenades don't explode until the end of the round. In a game where almost everyone has 3 initiative passes, that thing is never going to kill its intended target. A manaball goes off immediately, and is a much safer bet. Add in the utility of the other spells, and the extra manpower added by conjuring, and the scale tips heavily in favor of magic over tech in Shadowrun. Unlike drones, you never have to buy a spirit, or even repair it. And unlike cyberware, there isn't really a machine that detects being Awakened. Magic is just a better deal.

As mentioned somewhere else, thrown Grenades come with a wireless link at no extra cost. Got a datajack and a comlink?

Arm. Toss. (Free action to remote trigger) Boom.



Lantzer
Oh and to add my own vote... Yes magic can be overpowered, in the right circumstances.

This, however, should be something that Shadowrun GMs are used to dealing with. Magic has always been friggin' powerful. The key is to apply the disadvantages it does have.

When was the last time you had a mage in your games that was worried about burning out? People only seem to see the games where the mage is on his 4th initiation, right out of character generation.

My question is: If 'Turn to goo' was too overpowered a spell idea for 3rd edition, why'd they bring it back in 4th?
Steak and Spirits
I understand that perhaps this response may be coming in late. However, I think the question is fairly broad, and open to interpretation - Perhaps we could focus it down a bit.

If by "Is Magic Broken" do you mean that it is a disfunctional system? No, of course not - It demonstrates itself to be fluid, adaptable, and blends seemlessly into the majority of mechanics put forth in the fourth edition of Shadowrun.

But as I do not believe that the afforementioned interpretation is what the original poster intended, I believe it could be rewritten as "Is the Magic system a point of Shadowrun that is exploitable, and abuseable? And if so, can the exploitation and abuse create situations or characters that are detrimental to the other archetypes."

If that were the question posed, I would say 'Yes' on the first count, absolutely. I think we've all seen magic abuse since the beginning of Shadowrun. Afterall, 'Geek the Mage First' isn't a term that came into being on it's own. Infact, the rules themselves openly admit this. And I believe the second point will be answered by the conclusion of this post.

QUOTE

Magician
Cost: 15 BP

Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for characters that are intended to be played as magicians.


Afterall - There is no single Build Point expenditure that will have a more dramtic amount of returns available to character. Simply put, a player will always have the option to turn his Mage into a Samurai, if they choose to do so, from the standpoint of rules alone. Nothing is holding them back, save penalties on magic abilities that his Mundane counterparts didn't have to begin with. If that's a drawback, it's one that any powergamer would take in a heartbeat. This is relevent because if we're talking about something that can be abused, or exploited, then we're concerned about a powergamer playertype using the letter of the law, rather than it's spirit.

So, of course Magic is Abuseable, and Exploitable - From the perspective of the game designers, the core text from Shadowrun 4th Edition implies that this was intentional. There isn't a subsection included that says: "This is what balances out Magic with Mundanes, refer to these rules." It clearly, and open endedly says: "Gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused."

Hardly any of the arguements for why Mundanes match up with Awakened characters hold water because at the most fundamental level, an awakened character will nearly always have the options of their mundane counterparts.

Mundane = Ruthenium. Mage = Ruthenium + Invisibility. Mundane = Assault Rifle on full auto (Guns don't have drain codes?). Mage = Assault Rifle on Full Auto (Guns don't require essence, either) + Fireball/Manabolt/Manaball/Control Actions. Mundane = Cybernetic Initiative Passes. Mage = Magical Initiative Passes. Mundane = Cyberspurs. Mage = Cyberspurs + Melee Buffs + Magical Ability that still maintains a ratio of Infinity to Nothing vs. the effective Magic Attribute Value of Mundanes.

Pound for Pound, an awakened character by the numbers will always outdistance its mundane counterpart. The game system accepts this. And the grim reality is, short of GM intervention, there are no rules in place that will prevent the long term domination of Awakened Character's over Mundanes.

If this becomes a problem in your game, then it is a matter that only your GM can control - Background counts. Threats being introduced that specifically work to the disadvantage of Awakened Characters. Spells going awry, or follow-up repurcussions from Astral Signatures.

But, unfortunately, outside of the Intelligent direction of your Gamemaster, with a backbone to say "No" to his awakened characters from time to time, you will not find Mundane's standing toe to toe with Awakened. You'll always be outclassed, someway, somehow - Perhaps Augmentation will settle the score, so those of us who prefer mundanes will have to hold our breath, and hope for the best.

(Edit: Changed 'layed as magicians' to 'played as magicians' - We aren't overly concerned with Awakened pr0n.)
Slithery D
QUOTE (Xenefungus)
Slightly off-topic: If and how can a mage transfer or describe an astral signature he has spotted to one of his mage-chummers? The only thing i could think of would be a consensual mindprobe which would need a lot of trust for sure. Other ways you can think of?
Of course I'm specially asking in reference to the cops who will have found a method to do it, i fear. ^^

This is purely a GM call, but there's not reason he can't rule that astral signatures can be described with considerable details in ways that make sense to other awakened characters. Maybe it has "colors" in some identifiable pattern, so that one guy's signature looks like pink crosshatched with blue and spotted with orange. (Or for less detail, just sort of pale bluish-red.)

Then from that description you can decide whether a later signature is a possible match or not before you call in the original guy to confirm or make further investigation through other means. Treat it like an eye witness description, varying detail according to how you want it in your game. Can you just give the equivalent of "tall, medium build, light brown hair"? Or will you also spot better identifying details, like scars, eye color, nose shape, teeth, etc?
Cognitive Resonance
QUOTE (Slithery D)
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Sep 9 2006, 03:50 AM)
Slightly off-topic: If and how can a mage transfer or describe an astral signature he has spotted to one of his mage-chummers? The only thing i could think of would be a consensual mindprobe which would need a lot of trust for sure. Other ways you can think of?
Of course I'm specially asking in reference to the cops who will have found a method to do it, i fear. ^^

This is purely a GM call, but there's not reason he can't rule that astral signatures can be described with considerable details in ways that make sense to other awakened characters. Maybe it has "colors" in some identifiable pattern, so that one guy's signature looks like pink crosshatched with blue and spotted with orange. (Or for less detail, just sort of pale bluish-red.)

Then from that description you can decide whether a later signature is a possible match or not before you call in the original guy to confirm or make further investigation through other means. Treat it like an eye witness description, varying detail according to how you want it in your game. Can you just give the equivalent of "tall, medium build, light brown hair"? Or will you also spot better identifying details, like scars, eye color, nose shape, teeth, etc?

Should it be harder to describe an aura to someone of a different tradition? (As in you'd describe it within the confines of your tradition)
knasser

I didn't vote. Shadowrun has a very elegant and balanced magic system on the whole. However, it is broken in one very important way:

Magical development is open ended. Non-magical development is capped, and capped quickly. When your samurai has got his Dermal implants to rating three, the mage is just getting going with a quickened Armour spell. Another year of game time and your samurai still has dermal III, but now the mage has Armour 8 quickened. Apply it to anything you like. Magicians have long term power-development and playability. Samurai not only peak early. Sometimes they've peaked in character development.

Samurai need more toys and they need them now. Roll on Arsenal and Augmentation!
Slithery D
I would take this whining more seriously if your "capped" samurai already had natural 6s in Reaction, Willpower, Body, Agility, and Reaction. And decent ratings in Strength and Intuition.
Apathy
QUOTE (Slithery D)
I would take this whining more seriously if your "capped" samurai already had natural 6s in Reaction, Willpower, Body, Agility, and Reaction. And decent ratings in Strength and Intuition.

I believe the 'Latent Magician' quality was also a response to gamer complaints that mundanes 'capped out' quicker than magical types. At only 5 points, it's super-cheap, and allows the street sam/rigger/hacker an escape hatch when, after 5 years of campaigning and 500 karma, he's run out of mundane things to invest in.
Steak and Spirits
I don't think that's the solution we're looking for.

Players: Mundane's aren't balanced with Awakened Characters.
Mr. Solution: Well. Make an awakened Character, then!
James McMurray
Trust me, in 5 years of campaigning you'll see enough SOTA books to upgrade the sammie, and then SR5 will come out and you'll reset the campaign. No worries. smile.gif
Ophis
Having done the work at converting old characters over to SR4 the street sam types are hitting their caps on everything ie combat skills, perception, their choice of Stealth skills and Influence skills, plus a secondary or two (in the main case medicine) and having most attributes maxed at around 700-800 karma, more for technophile rigger types. This is a reasonable amount of room to my mind (okay I'm lucky my players go for balanced over specialised) and I use a slightly doctored reduce karma cost set up as i wasn't happy with the one in the book.
mintcar
Magic does give the player a lot of creative possibilities, and certain players may be able to break the game using combinations made possible in the rules—if the GM lets them. However, it seems that players who are not dead set on breaking the game may feel mages are underpowered compaired to cybered characters. More often than not, mages in my group don't really get their stuff to work before the street samurai in the group has wiped out the enemy, or they may just not think of using some of their abilities because there's so many of them.

So no, I don't think magic is broken. Certain spells are though, but I have corrected them.

fool
aside from the mind control stuff, things seem pretty balanced.
James McMurray
I agree with that, although I haven't seen much of Street Magic, so can't really comment on anything in it.
Shrike30
Street magic managed to add so many varied things that I'm not sure we'll know about "balance" until we've had a lot more playtime with it.
Egon
In case you don't get it from the poll results take a look at the posts and topics on the forum right now. The forum is currently 3 magic fanboys to every 1 cyber fanboy.

I am not saying it bad or good. That all depends on what camp you are in, but don't be surprised when promagic thoughts get gushed over and procyber thoughts get the cold shoulder, or when the forum defends magic.

Things may swing around all over again when augmentation comes out. Remember sams have all of 10 pages of cannon right now, maybe 20 if you want to count the whole gear section. ^shrug^

In the end it is up to the GMs to find balance in their games. Shadowrun is a large system. There are things broken on both ends, magic to cyberware. Fan Pro is doing a great job, but you can't take the rules as words from god. Its a game just make sure everyone is having fun thats the point
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (Slithery D)
I would take this whining more seriously if your "capped" samurai already had natural 6s in Reaction, Willpower, Body, Agility, and Reaction. And decent ratings in Strength and Intuition.

natural 6s? no but I have got augmented 9s in most of those

after about 100 karma and some insanely good cash runs
and the mage STILL PWNs me
Slithery D
See! You wasted Essence by getting more than three points of augmentation when you could have just waited for another 100 karma points and done it that way. Then you'd have more room for toys. For shame!
Kremlin KOA
is that sarcasm?
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (JonathanC)
I've almost never seen a force 6 spell get fewer than 3 hits, so that's at least 9P that goes up against Willpower (a stat that almost nobody uses for anything but resisting magic and Black IC) ALONE. No armor whatsoever.
  • Hey, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Hire a mage with shielding, and you'll never be ALONE again.
  • It sounds like you think Willpower is less useful than Body. Why is that?
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Egon)
In case you don't get it from the poll results take a look at the posts and topics on the forum right now. The forum is currently 3 magic fanboys to every 1 cyber fanboy.

If we didn't like magic, then we would be playing Cyberpunk.
FrankTrollman
The fact that ranged weapons generally require a simple action to fire rather than a complex is an advantage that cannot be overstated. Even against Force 9 Spirits, the character who I see consistently dishing out the kills is the street samurai with a sniper rifle firing armor piercing rounds. Base 8P, -7 AP, and she always calls a shot for an additional +4 DV, it easily slices through the 18 points of hardened armor. and causes some real damage (6-9 boxes of it in fact). Since it's just a simple action, the act that a single shot isn't enough to kill the spirit isn't even meaningful - she just fires a second time and this time the spirit has big penalties to its defense roll.

In the killing things market, even the killing of things with "immunity to normal weapons", an experienced street samurai in our group is substantially outperforming the magicians, and that's in neutral background count.

Where the mages excell is doing all that other stuff they do. Just the fact that they have a healing effect that is unique to them that is cumulative with the first aid kit anyone can use means that they have something to feel smug about in all circumstances. The fact that spells like Invisibility work fundamentally differently from other forms of stealth is also often useful. But finally, the Spirit powers of Movement, Guard, and Concealment are simply awesome and not replaceable by other things.

And that's the bottom line: a street samurai can kill things very well, but she's replaceable with a pack of mundanes with hatchets if it comes to that. There's not really anything you need a street samurai for. A Hacker or a Magician is someone you need. You literally cannot complete some missions without those characters. So that puts character types like the Street Samurai under the hairy eyeball. They aren't necessary, so if they aren't played well they come off as incredibly lame.

-Frank
Cognitive Resonance
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
QUOTE (Egon @ Sep 15 2006, 09:38 PM)
In case you don't get it from the poll results take a look at the posts and topics on the forum right now. The forum is currently 3 magic fanboys to every 1 cyber fanboy.

If we didn't like magic, then we would be playing Cyberpunk.

This only surpises me because magic has played such a minor role in the games I've been a part of (we might run into something magical on 1% of the runs)
James McMurray
I somehow doubt that pack of mundanes with hatchets is going to fare well against the Force 9 Spirit you mentioned. smile.gif

QUOTE
It sounds like you think Willpower is less useful than Body. Why is that?


I'd like to know too. Willpower is at least as important as body, if not moreso. You can augment body resistance tests with things like armor and toxin filters. There aren't anywhere near as many ways to augment Willpower, so having a high base stat is vital.
Tbunny
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
let it know a couple of spells you know (say armour and increase reflexes)

Just curious...where does it say that you can determine any of the Spirits Characteristics other than those determined by force? I assumed that these would be determined by your GM. The power you're talking about is also OPTIONAL.

Just Curious
Rotbart van Dainig
Additional powers are chosen by the character.
Cognitive Resonance
QUOTE (Tbunny)
Just curious...where does it say that you can determine any of the Spirits Characteristics other than those determined by force?  I assumed that these would be determined by your GM.  The power you're talking about is also OPTIONAL.

Just Curious


QUOTE (BBB PG294)
In addition to their standard Powers, each spirit also has one Optional Power for every 3 full ponts of Force. A magician selectes what Optional Powers(s) he wishes a summoned spirit to possess as he summons it. The Optional Powers possessed by a spirit may not be later changed.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I somehow doubt that pack of mundanes with hatchets is going to fare well against the Force 9 Spirit you mentioned.


That depends upon how many hatchetmen you have.

A Force 9 spirit isn't hiding, it's a threshold of -3 to notice it, so even the dazed and confused are going o pinpoint it as soon as it materializes. And that's good, because it's going to spend its first IP materializing.

And then your hatchetmen are going to charge en masse. And they are going to accomplis very little. See, they've got Willpowers of 3 and Charismas of 3 and hatchets. They also outnumber the spirit by a lot. Each Hatchetman gets 3 (Willpower) + 1 (Reach) + 4 (outnumbering) + 2 (charging) = 10 dice on their attack and a base DV of 3 (Charisma). The spirit has, unfortunately, 20 dice on its defense rolls (11 Reaction + Unarmed Combat 9). That's bad, but it also drops by 1 every time it blocks an attack (and by more every time it fails to block an attack). So if you attack it 10 times, you're going to be getting an attack or two through.

And that's not much, because it also soaks 3-4 boxes on its Body check. So at 10 foolios, we're looking ar inflicting 0-1 boxes of damage or so (although statistically it's probably a little better than that because when the spirit rolls really well nothing happens and when it rolls absolute dick it takes a notable pile of damage).

But every foolio past 10 is golden. They're averaging inflicting a little more than 0 boxes of damage every attack. And if they spend Edge for 3 more dice and the rule of 6, they're looking at like 2 extra damage boxes each.

So if I had 16 professional hatchet mooks, I'd confidently expect them to drop a Force 9 spirit without even suffering casualties. Attacks of Will don't work very well, but they work t all, and when large numbers of people are doing them even the mightiest of demons crumble.

-Frank
James McMurray
Assuming they could all get near it. Go to a biker bar, wait til there are exactly 16 of them, call their gang a bunch of fags* and see how many can attack you at once. If you can talk them into using a battlemat, it'll only be 8 at a time unless someone learns to fly.

Of course, if they fail to kill it on the first round the odds are pretty good it's going to kill some of them. Exactly how it does it and how many drop will depend on what kind of spirit it is and what optional powers its summoner gave it. If they're extremely unlucky it has an area spell or energy aura and they all die at once.

* If this doesn't work, it's possible you stumbled into a gay biker bar. Try calling them right wing conservatives and see if that gets the desired response. wink.gif
Slithery D
Energy Aura makes them considerably less likely to want to charge it en masse. (Edit: James mentioned that, but only a Body 1-2 person rolling no successes is going to go down "at once" to a Force 9 EA.)They're going to have to kill it on the first attack, or, depending on armor and high Body, they're going to die on the second try. If they're smart they'll scatter and run, knowing the spirit can't catch all of them.
James McMurray
It doesn't have to catch them. Remember, they're there to kill the spirit, not the other way around. In any case, you're definitely better off with the sniper rifle. smile.gif
Slithery D
I suppose. In any case, screw all of these extra hatchetmen marshmallows - I want to see someone's Charisma 9 elf send in a mob of 9 watchers to provide friend in melee dice that are immune to the Energy Aura.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (James McMurray)
It doesn't have to catch them. Remember, they're there to kill the spirit, not the other way around. In any case, you're definitely better off with the sniper rifle. smile.gif

Oh no doubt. My point was not that the razorgirl was pointless. In fact,I think the example of one Razorgirl with a smart-linked high powered rifle being somewhat superior to 16 axe mooks definitely demonstrates that she has utility. My point was only that you could fill a van with members ofthe Axe Gang and do the same basic job of the razorgirl, while no number of Axe Gangers are going to speed your van up to 600 KPH (to replace a Conjurer with Movement) or loop a camera feed (to replace a Hacker).

Combat effectiveness is something that everyone contributes, so the ability to contribute "a lot" to combat is a little less special than anything else you'd recruit a team member for. Note that Ocean's Eleven didn't even have a combat specialist and managed to do their Shadowruns just fine. The Italian Job is pretty much the same way, their killer betrayed them and they managed to get through by just outsourcing to East European mobsters. Neither group would have gotten anywhere without a demolitions expert and a hacker however.

So if the rest of the team is willing to put in for the occassional character with a combat minor and the street sam isn't pretty competent as a character and as a player, it's entirely possible for the Street Samurai to feel like a fifth wheel.

It doesn't happen every game Certainly, sometimes the Street Sam happens to be the team's driver, medic, or demolitions expert and ends up being completely iinvaluable in the team's plans and the most effective in combat (thus appearing to dominate play). But in an absolute sense, the razorgirl's skill with a high powered rifle, while impressive, is functionally replaceable with large enough numbers of mooks. No other signature team skill has that distinction.

-Frank
James McMurray
Our current group doesn't have a street samurai. Either that, or everyone exceptt he mage is a street samurai, depending on how you look at it. Everyone in the group is capable of participating in battle and contributing, while nobody has 18+ dice. Well, I take that back. One guy has a lot of dice, but he duel wields, so it's more like he has a few dice but more times to use them.
James McMurray
QUOTE
But in an absolute sense, the razorgirl's skill with a high powered rifle, while impressive, is functionally replaceable with large enough numbers of mooks.


True, but not really apropos to the standard situation. Most teams are one character per player, not one character per player except for the guy that runs 16 mooks. You can replace / invalidate the need for the team's mage just by not taking jobs where you're facing magical opposition. You can replace the hacker with a bunch of agents. Doesn't mean that those people are now obsolete. And in the standard game they're not even really replacable because the theory doesn't fit the table well.
mfb
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Assuming they could all get near it. Go to a biker bar, wait til there are exactly 16 of them, call their gang a bunch of fags* and see how many can attack you at once. If you can talk them into using a battlemat, it'll only be 8 at a time unless someone learns to fly.

well, to be fair, limiting the number of attackers according to battlemat spaces is not in the rules.
Slithery D
Hell, the rules even allow you to get bonus dice when you're attacking enemy A because your friends are attacking A's ally B a couple of meters away.
James McMurray
True, but neither is allowing 16 people to attack the same opponent. IIRC there are no limits, which means either the GM must decide (which seems to be the basis for SR4) or infinite numbers of opponents can attack the same target all at once. I'll go with GM decision on this one, and most (all?) GMs I know would set the limit somewhere lower than 16.
Slithery D
Of course, the real issue is that if it's a fire elemental they're going to drop their axes, open their flies, and piss on the thing. We need distance rules! And talk about an exotic weapon proficiency...
hyzmarca
I wouldn't exactly call having your target loot cremated the culmination of a successful run (although that was poor planning combined with a fluke rather than a lack of muscle).


The hatchet mooks need a name. I shall call them The Light Brigade.

Anyone remember The Light Brigade? Yeah, a full frontal change is rarely the best idea. It may work against spirits. It doesn't work against machine guns. All you need is 4 fully automatic weapons using suppressive fires rules at 50 meters and your 16 mooks will all die before they close to melee range. The razor girl, on the other than, just drops prone, crawls behind cover, and uses her smartlink camera to target the shooters from realitive safety.Even if they advance while firing they won't be able to compromise her cover before she kills them all.
JonathanC
Here's a question about magic balance. How do you treat area spells? I had a player who wanted to target an empty space with Ball Lightning, so as to target only the enemy, and leave himself (who was fairly nearby) unscathed. He was arguing that his goggles, which have a variety of vision enhancements and are linked to his commlink, could easily pinpoint the distance. I said I doubted it, and made him use the rules for constraining area effect spells (losing dice to better control the size of the area).

Am I being a hardass, or what?
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